Espejos de Aztlan; Farrell Brody and Joseph Massad; Part 1

conversation between Ferrell and Joseph in two programs. So this coming Monday, we will do part two of the conversation between Joseph and Ferrell. Thank you for accepting the invitation to talk to us at as Pecosius Land Ferrell. I believe you're going to be taking with Mike's first and it's all yours. Thank you very much Cecilio. I know in speaking with Joseph before the program, I can say on his behalf as well as my own that we really want to thank you for inviting us to have this conversation. It's a great pleasure and really almost a unique experience to have Palestinians and Jews get together and talk and certainly my experience here in Albuquerque whenever we've done something like this is that we've had a lot of positive effects as a result. Joseph, I'm going to start with what seems to be a very, very difficult question and a vast question, but you know to the

best you can. I'd kind of like to hear how you view Jewish history in comparison, say, with Palestinian history. I know that's, as I said, an enormous question. Maybe you just want to try various aspects or versions, whatever of your own about that. Well, I will try and basically make a connection between Jewish history and Palestinian history, a connection which is indeed very strong in terms of the parallels which exist between both histories. Jewish history has been filled with oppression against the Jewish people, basically in Europe and even in Palestine at the time of the Jewish statehood, if you want to call it, the Jewish kingdoms. At that time, even in the diaspora, Jews have experienced an incredible amount of oppression which culminated

in the Holocaust during World War II. The Palestinian tragedy has come to basically becoming an international question after World War II and especially after this tabloid Israel. Nevertheless, Palestinian history or actually the Palestinians have a long history as well and it was also full of oppression. The Palestinians have lived in Palestine for a very long time since ancient times and their country has been occupied by lots of empires which in many ways oppressed the Palestinians or oppressed the Arab identity and in the 400 years that Palestine fell under Ottoman occupation. Even Arabic was declared illegal as a language of instruction and schools and there were several schools that were set up underground to teach Arabic which seems to ring a lot of bells in Jewish

history as well where he had to be taught underground in Eastern Europe where even Hebrew schools had to be taught underground, defying authorities which banned the language. So many parallels do exist. The parallels that I would like to point out to show the specificity and are trying to to basically show the parallels is what happened to the Jewish Ethiopian Jews joining World War II especially after the advent of Nazism and what had happened to the Palestinians and continues to happen to the Palestinians today after the establishment of the State of Israel by the Zionist establishment which governs Israel and has governed it since 1948. I think mainly the issue of the land and of race is the issue which creates this parallel between Nazism and Zionism. I feel that the Nazism's main goal

was to liberate quote unquote Germany and Europe of Jews and declare them Jew free which is pretty much what happened to the Palestinians in their homeland in Palestine with the advent of Zionist settlers and after that the Jewish refugees as well which was to affect the Palestinians from their homeland and almost declare the country at a pre. Though that never happened entirely a clear major attempt had been made to do that and the big evidence is the expulsion of the Palestinians from their homeland in 1948 an expulsion which did not stop there and actually continued even through the 80s from Palestinians still continue to be deported from their homeland. The deportation issue I think is a

big parallel between what happened to Jews and Europe what happened to the Palestinians and still is still happening to the Palestinians in Palestine Israel today. Also I would like to speak of the process of the areaization of the land and of the businesses and of everything in Germany and German occupied territories in Europe which is very similar to the Judaism the so-called Judaism of Palestinian land basically by confiscating the land and declaring it as a property of the Israeli government or of the Jewish National Fund or the Jewish Agency and such measures basically have resulted in the confiscation of most of the Palestinian land when Israel was created according to the Jewish National Fund the Jews and the Zionists owned less than 6.5% of the total land of Palestine yet right now over 93% of the land is in the hands of the Jewish National Fund and the

Israeli government and it is declared to be only for the use of Jews non Jews are totally unallowed to use the land and when Jews sign leases when they rent that land for 100 years or so from the government or the Jewish Agency and the Jewish National Fund they have to stipulate that the land will not be leased to non Jews. So the issue of race is basically I think a big parallel to be drawn from the Jewish experience under Nazism and the Palestinian experience under Israel. What is really ironic is that after studying Jewish history and after seeing the oppression of the Jewish people throughout the ages Palestinians are shocked to realize that Jews who given those experiences should be our natural ally. In this case have adopted the majority of them have adopted an ideology called Zionism which is during the Palestinians very similar things that happened

to Jews and Jewish history. I'd like to tell you something about myself this is a personal note and I might mention you know before I do that that I'm really this evening as an individual. I say that openly and frankly because the opinions that I express are I think definitely minority opinions in the Jewish community although there are a lot of Jews today who share these same opinions still we're a minority. I wanted to tell you that when I was out of high school I first went to Israel to spend a couple of years working on a keyboard and at that time I had a lot of conflicting experiences that is experiences within myself that I was unable really to resolve.

What I want to do now is I'd like to read a poem about one of those experiences and maybe afterwards I could ask you for your reaction to that. Frequently I can express myself better in a poem than I can in some discourse. This refers to a time when I was working on a keyboard's and driving a tractor and was given the task of really destroying some abandoned properties and homes that now belong to the area which the keyboards encompassed and it created certain tensions and conflicts, emotional ones within me. So this is what I'd like to read to you. I titled this Palestine Israel in a time of newer crucifixions.

Music floors shredded by the blades of my pioneering tractor. In this Palestine Israel 1957 pioneering what am I pioneering genocide in this the land they call it the Mojist justice is hardly an absolute my friends. We say Philistine to mean one who is uninformed a cross one no less and possibly worse in a full of lands where one's enemies are always terrorists. Those lovely mosaic floors I tore apart were once on hot ham scene afternoons a family scooped

homeless with pita while the brass fin John enclosed the most marvelous of all the coffees. Where are they taking their buck love are now in the charred ruins of Shatila. What do we know these days of mosaics in the years of simple mystifications when red is red black is red white is red brown is red cross cross mine see red red and red is horrible to them who know nothing nothing of the beauty of mosaics of salad sprinkled freely with bitter lemons

of culture and I was guilty then two of ignorance but without such malice and I learned quickly about my own terrorism and I was left to cry nearly alone in those days or today about the destruction of big temples and little adobe houses surrounded by cactus hedges built upon centuries of mosaics crucifixions and the constant crisscross of dominance thirsty men it was a small cross to bear but it was mine it is mine and a few other mosaics are along for the voyage we wonder about a bit in these deserts where the big bombs are created sucking on lemon juice with pieces of sesame candy

intently waving the banners against the common tortures the dominance thirsty crucifiers know nothing of oasis where mosaic tiles could mean clear delicious water and mutual resurrections well I just wanted to ask you the allegations always made about Palestinian terrorism how do you feel about that I think the allegation always creates an incredible upheaval within me because of a lot of misconceptions of what Palestinian violence has been and what it is today there is something called pasting and terrorism yet there is something called pasting and resistance

which is always confused with terrorism and what I would like to say is that terrorism is an action that is taken against civilians such actions were launched by the Palestinians or more specifically PLO affiliated organizations between the period of 69 and 74 and they targeted civilians and non civilians at that point the Palestinians were at a point of despair they had been evicted of their homeland for nearly 20 years at that time and the whole world had not even acknowledged the existence of a Palestinian people Palestinian terrorism brought the Palestinian question to the world arena and finally after 1974 the whole world acknowledged reluctantly the existence of a Palestinian question what I would like to say is that pasting and terrorism at that time cannot be justified by what I'm attempting to say is that despair creates a lot of contradictions within

oneself and such violence against civilians at that time was a reaction against the monstrosities that had been committed and continued and continue even today to be committed against the Palestinian people which the American public never hears of for example many or the majority of Americans are very familiar with the mionic affair wherein Palestinian terrorists kidnapped and then murdered 11 Israeli athletes that tension that that was given in the international media was very legitimate and I think the action should continue to be deployed over a week after that Israeli jets went and bombarded Palestinian refugee camps in Syrian Lebanon killing 500 Palestinians civilians very few Americans remember that it seems that 11 Israeli lives seems to carry seem to carry with them more weight than 500 Palestinian lives people say why is that and I say it's political

partisanship or racism or a combination of both however most of these accusations about Palestinian terrorism are basically voiced by the Israeli establishment most of whose members basically were were terrorists themselves in the 40s and 30s they were even wanted by the British government and many other governments for terrorist actions so their accusations of terrorism against the Palestinians seem to ring hollow when they come from ex-terrorists themselves again what I would like the audience to consider is that legitimate Palestinian resistance on the West Bank and Gaza against the brutal Israeli occupation is just as legitimate as the French resistance against Nazi occupation during World War II it seems to me that the French resistance movement is declared as a heroic movement from the 40s because it dared resist against the Nazi

occupation and Nazi horrors whereas Palestinian resistance against an Israeli occupation which is so brutal as always basically termed as a terrorism and its resistance factor is taken out of it they are listening to a conversation with a Palestinian companion and a Jewish companion who both are now ready to go to the Boquerque this is a conversation between Joseph Masad and Palestinian from Jordan he is a student at the University of New Mexico Department of Engineering and has been here in Albuquerque for about four and a half years he's the president of the Arab student association and Ferro Brody works at the Bernalio County Mental Health Center he has been in Israel working at the Caboods at A Caboods and Teaching has been in Albuquerque

for approximately ten years as you notice he read a poem he's a very a Francisco I think that Ferro Brody selected some music no you have something okay Ferro Brody selected some music he loves Spanish music so we're going to take a short musical intermission and we'll be right back okay

would like to suggest that if you have questions to us either Joseph or Ferro to please write them down and then you can call 277-406 and we will see how we can handle this and maybe have some commentaries on those questions please call 277-406 if you have a question to ask Joseph and Ferro Brody will continue with their dialogue Ferro why don't you take it over now thank you Joseph as a Jew I at least the way I view the best of what I learned in many years studying Jewish history and Jewish attitudes and ideas can always concern the question of justice

very big question right what what happens what happens if if the Holocaust occurred and there are Jews who went to Palestine and then Israel as a place of refuge and what happens if antisemitism still exists in the world and it is easy for those Jews to find a safe refuge what happens to them in Israel vis-à-vis the Palestinians how can they how could they possibly come together to to form some kind of a place which would be safe for both is that conceivable I think that is

conceivable indeed what I would like to talk about at first is that Palestine and the Palestinian people have offered themselves and their countries of refuge to many oppressed people from before and as we know from the existence of small Armenian communities who fled their genocide and flipped it upon them by the Turkish government at the beginning of the century also the Circassians who also live in Palestine small communities who came from outside of Palestine seeking refuge and were given that refuge the dilemma that was created by the advent of Zionism and Israel to Palestine was that the Zionists wanted Palestine by conquest I wanted to create a state many of them as a refuge and many of them simply out of nationalistic feelings which I think the latter group had won eventually nevertheless that refuge the Zionist attempt

to create through conquest and not through request and that is exactly the reason for the situation we are in today however I do not think we have received any we have arrived at an impasse yet there definitely is a practical solution where Palestinians and Jews can come together Palestinians and Israelis can coexist in a peaceful Middle East in a peaceful Palestine Israel I would like to refer to Palestinian programs and peace proposals throughout history at least since the creation of the Palestinian and the PLO before the coup d'etat of 69 which created the autonomous and the independent PLO there existed a Palestinian movement which was a puppet of Arab regimes which had called upon the expulsion of all Jews and living in Palestine Israel

and the event of a reconquest of the land of Palestine after 69 and especially after 1974 when the PLO has received international had received international recognition as we know today the PLO is recognized by more countries in the world than Israel as the representative of the Palestinian people and almost as a government in exile in any case after 1974 the Palestine National Council had passed all a solution specifically actually in 1973 saying that steering that all Jews and Israelis who live in Palestine Israel should remain there and the event of any peace solution where if the Palestinian peace proposal were to be enacted that is if a binational state Palestinian Israeli state was to be created with Palestinian and Jews living in that binational state which

is non-sectarian the democratic state with equal rights that proposal was rejected by the Israeli government consistently until today and was looked upon as something coming out of a horror movie much less as a call for peace the American government had and still reiterates the Israel the line vis-à-vis that proposal after 1976 however the Palestinians came up with a new proposal for peace talking about a two-state solution where the Palestinians would have the West Bank and Gaza which is 23% of the original area of Palestine and create an independent Palestinian state on their homeland on 23% of what is rightfully theirs and I think that would be the least acceptable solution for the Palestinians and a solution I think that most Israelis can live with and I think that would definitely terminate the status of war that exists today

however the reality strikes us as being much different than our wishes for peace since over sixty percent of the land on the West Bank and Gaza had already been confiscated by the Israeli government when Palestinians continue to live under military occupation deprived of their very least human rights in the right of sub-determination even then American government which acknowledges the right of sub-determination for every people on this globe denies that right for the Palestinian people unless that right is acknowledged and until that is acknowledged peace cannot be achieved but when it is acknowledged and only then will peace prevail and I think that would be the first attempt of an authentic call for peace on the Israeli side to be made and once that is made I think the road will be paved with a peaceful way to continue that way and that would be definitely a start for peace and for a future coexistence between Palestine and Israel.

I know I have probably have you know many more questions about who should begin first in this and maybe we'll come to those one thing I'm convinced of if the situation in Palestine is real is a zero sum game that is whatever one side wins the other side loses and vice versa then the situation that we will see in the Middle East in the future is going to be far more terrible even than what we've seen up to now that that fact in my mind it makes it absolutely necessary for for us to continue to converse. I think that is definitely the most important thing to do at this point however I would like to point out that the Middle East situation is not a zero sum game and if the part one of the Palestinians when their independence Jews and the Israelis are not losing anything that is theirs actually but they are showing

their ability and their willingness to recognize the human rights of people because I feel that after the Holocaust there was a big Jewish slogan never again I think that never again should apply to Jews as well as to every other people on earth absolutely I agree. Ferro Brody for the United States Diallo Gohan Suprorama is Pejo's Islam Joseph Masari is a Palestinian from Jordan and he is a student at the University of New Mexico Department of Engineering and Ferro Brody is a Pennsylvania but now works here at the Bernalio County Mental Health Center and has lived in New Mexico for over 10 years. As we said at the beginning of the program the part two of this dialogue between Joseph and Ferro will continue next Monday so I hope that

you will join us then. Muchissima gracias Joseph Ferro for having participated in the Suprorama of Pejo's Islam. Estaremos con ustedes nuevamente para seguir la segunda parte de esta plática entre Joseph y Ferro el siguiente lunes como aquí de las 8 pm les damos las gracias por acompañarnos muy buenas noches.