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<v Speaker>[Song: One Step Into the Light by The Moody Blues] <v Michael Toms>You're listening to New Dimensions and this is KQED F.M.
<v Michael Toms>in San Francisco. <v Michael Toms>My name is Michael Toms. I'm talking with Marilyn Ferguson, the creator <v Michael Toms>of Brain/Mind Bulletin and the author of a book entitled Brain Revolution <v Michael Toms>and a book that will be coming out later, The Aquarian <v Michael Toms>Conspiracy. <v Michael Toms>What's the subtitle, Marilyn? <v Marilyn Ferguson> The Personal and Social Transformation in the 1980s. <v Michael Toms>That brings me to my next question. <v Michael Toms>The 80s are coming on, and we've been through the 70s, and we all experienced <v Michael Toms>the 60s. And there, um, it's like the 70s are we <v Michael Toms>being called the silent 70s by some media <v Michael Toms>and the 60s being in the turbulent 60s and silent 70s. <v Michael Toms>How do you see- do you agree with the term silent 70s? <v Marilyn Ferguson>Well, the major media don't listen. <v Marilyn Ferguson>That's why they think it's silent, right? [laughter] If they're not staging <v Marilyn Ferguson>demonstrations, that people aren't staging demonstrations, they don't know what's <v Marilyn Ferguson>happening. I think the revolution went inside.
<v Marilyn Ferguson>Many of the social activists and from the 1960s- <v Marilyn Ferguson>first of all, the 60s had their effect on the main culture for sure in <v Marilyn Ferguson>terms of changing, changing beliefs. <v Marilyn Ferguson>And many of the beliefs of the 1960s that were radical then are mainstream now. <v Marilyn Ferguson>Some of the social activists figured out what was wrong with that approach <v Marilyn Ferguson>to changing society, which was a confrontive approach. <v Marilyn Ferguson>And some are still wondering where the revolution went. <v Marilyn Ferguson>Many, as you know, many of the leaders of those movements- it <v Marilyn Ferguson>figures because if they were a vanguard, then there would be a vanguard now- became <v Marilyn Ferguson>involved in interior searches and came from <v Marilyn Ferguson>their own centers when they- when they have re emerged. <v Marilyn Ferguson>And many of them are now in influential positions of government and- and really, really <v Marilyn Ferguson>having an impact and are in the establishment or closely allied with the establishment, <v Marilyn Ferguson>having figured out that that's where you make changes.
<v Marilyn Ferguson>And having, I think, come to a point of, again, this is paradigm change instead of <v Marilyn Ferguson>pendulum change of understanding that, uh, <v Marilyn Ferguson>they are us, we're they that you can't affect a change, but we've got to make <v Marilyn Ferguson>them- we got to make them change. There's Jerry Rubin said 'I couldn't change anybody <v Marilyn Ferguson>until I changed myself.' There is a <v Marilyn Ferguson>Canadian government consultant named Rubin Nelson who wrote a book, a little <v Marilyn Ferguson>booklet that The Canadian government published called Illusions of Urban Man, wonderful <v Marilyn Ferguson>little book. And he was saying in there something to the effect that the main <v Marilyn Ferguson>divisions run within us, not between us. <v Marilyn Ferguson>Once we come to terms with, you know, those- those all those aspects of ourselves and <v Marilyn Ferguson>begin to make ourselves whole, then we can understand what are the fears and concerns of <v Marilyn Ferguson>the establishment that people trying to protect the status quo. <v Marilyn Ferguson>And I think that's what's been happening. <v Marilyn Ferguson>Many people who would have been or who were radicals in the 1960s are now <v Marilyn Ferguson>in helping to make policy in Washington and in various state
<v Marilyn Ferguson>governments, or they are an otherwise influential positions. <v Marilyn Ferguson>I spoke recently at an AHP Conference Association for Humanistic Psychology <v Marilyn Ferguson>conference at Loyola Marymount in Los Angeles. <v Marilyn Ferguson>And in this seminar, an older man <v Marilyn Ferguson>described by somebody later as one of the old guard had said, 'Oh, but what about the <v Marilyn Ferguson>people? But the people have the power. What about the people who have the power? <v Marilyn Ferguson>They won't change.' And there were two responses to that from other participants <v Marilyn Ferguson>in the seminar. One, an educator <v Marilyn Ferguson>said, 'wait a minute, we have the power.' And she went on to explain profound <v Marilyn Ferguson>changes that she was helping to effect within the school system and had allies <v Marilyn Ferguson>helping her with that. <v Marilyn Ferguson>It was there was there would be all you had to do was begin to do your part <v Marilyn Ferguson>of it and it would happen. And then another person who was there said, <v Marilyn Ferguson>look, 'what we have to remember is we were them.
<v Marilyn Ferguson>You know, these people we think are so different from us.' She said, this the mistake <v Marilyn Ferguson>that we've made that the that the people in humanistic psychology have made for too long. <v Marilyn Ferguson>As you know, we are loving, open, etc. <v Marilyn Ferguson>people and and those Philistines out there, what do they know? <v Marilyn Ferguson>[laughter] And she said 'we were them last week.' [laughter] <v Marilyn Ferguson>and so I think this is part of what's happening is this is a time of reconciliation <v Marilyn Ferguson>and inclusion and a seeking new forms. <v Marilyn Ferguson>The 1970s has been important- has been an important period for making <v Marilyn Ferguson>new forms. We can't go into a new age with old forms that was tried. <v Marilyn Ferguson>I mean, it was like, we're going to get rid of this hierarchy over here. <v Marilyn Ferguson>We're going to replace it with another hierarchy. <v Marilyn Ferguson>Only our hierarchy is better than your hierarchy. <v Marilyn Ferguson>We're understanding that in many ways it was the forms and the structures that <v Marilyn Ferguson>we had that were themselves wrong. <v Marilyn Ferguson>I've been involved for years in- in a public alternative school in Los Angeles <v Marilyn Ferguson>that a community group helped to convince the school board to start
<v Marilyn Ferguson>seven or eight years ago and too many people <v Marilyn Ferguson>came into that school with the- and it was only a minority, but it was enough to <v Marilyn Ferguson>disrupt a lot of what happened over the years- with a romantic <v Marilyn Ferguson>vision of what alternative education should be like. <v Marilyn Ferguson>But with somehow deeply embedded old conditioning immediately found themselves <v Marilyn Ferguson>in power struggles that should never have happened because they were still oriented to <v Marilyn Ferguson>old structures. You know, we can sometimes accept on an intellectual level <v Marilyn Ferguson>or a 'isn't that nice? Wouldn't it be nice if'- ideas that we can't live in at a gut <v Marilyn Ferguson>level that we haven't really integrated. And so I think <v Marilyn Ferguson>that a lot of what- a lot of what I think is happening is reflected in in terms <v Marilyn Ferguson>of the difference between the 60s and the 70s is <v Marilyn Ferguson>a kind of a contrast between humanistic psychology <v Marilyn Ferguson>and transpersonal psychology or humanistic education and- and some of the newer things
<v Marilyn Ferguson>happening in education, which is that the humanistic part of it was <v Marilyn Ferguson>very important. We had to first come to a place where we said people should be, quote, be <v Marilyn Ferguson>in touch with their feelings, unquote, to we should have a <v Marilyn Ferguson>?inaudible? environment. I mean, let's face it, education is going to happen best in a <v Marilyn Ferguson>humanistic environment. But that isn't enough because a lot of people who were <v Marilyn Ferguson>appreciative of the humane failed to recognize <v Marilyn Ferguson>also the potential that was there. <v Marilyn Ferguson>It's like the expectations were very modest. <v Marilyn Ferguson>Well, don't- you know he's in touch with his feard that don't make him do that or I'm in <v Marilyn Ferguson>touch with my anger and boy, am I enjoying- without understanding that <v Marilyn Ferguson>those things could be transformed. <v Marilyn Ferguson>In a recent issue of the Journal of Humanistic Psychology, there is an article by <v Marilyn Ferguson>Barbara Forisha. I don't remember the title, but it has to do with, uh, <v Marilyn Ferguson>Carl- using Carlos Castaneda as an example of how the transpersonal approach <v Marilyn Ferguson>can be in- In her view, it was in conflict with the humanistic.
<v Marilyn Ferguson>I don't think it's in conflict, but it is- it is larger than- it's a larger <v Marilyn Ferguson>paradigm because it includes challenge, and it includes <v Marilyn Ferguson>going through your fear. <v Marilyn Ferguson>You're shaking in your boots, but you're going to do it anyway. <v Marilyn Ferguson>And it's as if we talk about feelings. <v Marilyn Ferguson>But there is a level- a level of feelings below the <v Marilyn Ferguson>surface, like anger and fear or kind of secondary feelings. <v Marilyn Ferguson>And we can reach a level where there is more love and transcendence. <v Marilyn Ferguson>I think this is the direction that things are moving. <v Marilyn Ferguson>Expanding on the humanistic into something that has a larger vision. <v Michael Toms>We talk about making changes, particularly making changes in the establishment. <v Michael Toms>It brings up the whole issue of how change really happens. <v Michael Toms>And I think of institutions, particularly large institutions, <v Michael Toms>that you see people who are creative, <v Michael Toms>inventive, imaginative, go into the large institution and <v Michael Toms>wind up becoming a part of the institution and never really being able to manifest any
<v Michael Toms>creativity or ingenuity or inventiveness, because the institution kind of just <v Michael Toms>presses that automatically of in and of itself. <v Michael Toms>It's the structure. Yeah, the structure. What about the process of do you think the <v Michael Toms>institutions have to disintegrate before change can happen? <v Michael Toms>Or do you think change is really possible to happen to this huge, incredible institutions <v Michael Toms>like the federal government or like large corporations? <v Marilyn Ferguson>I think what's happening there is there's somebody did it recently, <v Marilyn Ferguson>did an article which struck me as being very insightful relating <v Marilyn Ferguson>to adaptation and innovation. <v Marilyn Ferguson>And they said that bureaucracies basically thrive on and promote <v Marilyn Ferguson>adaptation by their very nature. <v Marilyn Ferguson>The dismantling of bureaucracies and hierarchy seems to be a necessary part of moving <v Marilyn Ferguson>into a new society, dismantling. <v Marilyn Ferguson>I mean, obviously, you're not going to take apart the federal government, but you can <v Marilyn Ferguson>somehow perhaps restructure the way things are done so that you have <v Marilyn Ferguson>autonomous sections so that you have entrepreneurial parts of it.
<v Marilyn Ferguson>And somehow it might- it might be that can be transformed. <v Marilyn Ferguson>The point that I thought was interesting that this person was making about adaptation <v Marilyn Ferguson>and innovation was innovation basically is transformation. <v Marilyn Ferguson>It's a paradigm shift. It's moving into a whole other thing. <v Marilyn Ferguson>They made the point you can be creative in your adaptation. <v Marilyn Ferguson>People can be creatively psychosomatically ill, you know, there are all kinds of things <v Marilyn Ferguson>we can do that are creative, that are not necessarily advancing us. <v Marilyn Ferguson>And you can keep elaborating within something that doesn't work and being creative within <v Marilyn Ferguson>that. Innovation requires- is breaking out. <v Marilyn Ferguson>And it makes it very difficult if you have a large structure, and there <v Marilyn Ferguson>are too many places that the energy can get dissipated. <v Marilyn Ferguson>But people are working at it, even though there- there is, um, someone <v Marilyn Ferguson>at the cabinet level who is really involved in consciousness <v Marilyn Ferguson>activities and, um, who said to me the only way we're going to change <v Marilyn Ferguson>bureaucracy is to change the bureaucrats.
<v Marilyn Ferguson>And so this person is bringing in seminar type trainers to deal with <v Marilyn Ferguson>the bureaucrats in this cabinet office. <v Michael Toms>Well, that's hopeful. <v Michael Toms>It is incredible how creative we are with our problems. <v Michael Toms>[Laughter]. <v Marilyn Ferguson>Our sabotage! [laughter]. <v Michael Toms>We just make wonderful problems for- its- just go on and on. <v Michael Toms>And at the same time, I guess we create them because we need to have them so that we can <v Michael Toms>grow. <v Marilyn Ferguson>Yes, um, sometimes we could maybe <v Marilyn Ferguson>rechannel our creativity into something that will help us grow a little faster. <v Marilyn Ferguson>So we'd have to be stuck in the same place for a while. <v Marilyn Ferguson>But you can't you can be very creative. <v Marilyn Ferguson>You can be very creative in staying in the same place. <v Marilyn Ferguson>And there is something called the fear of success syndrome. <v Michael Toms>It's called being stuck. <v Marilyn Ferguson>[laughter] Yes, an interesting thing about this fear of success- They've found it- <v Marilyn Ferguson>definitely- there is definitely a syndrome which some people manifest really strongly, <v Marilyn Ferguson>but probably we all have a little of which is that if you get too <v Marilyn Ferguson>close to real success, you draw back, you sabotage yourself.
<v Marilyn Ferguson>You don't want to fail. So if you get too close to failure, you start working real hard. <v Marilyn Ferguson>But there's a kind of a safe zone there. <v Marilyn Ferguson>And they found that the family situations that seem to promote this are <v Marilyn Ferguson>the parent indicates to the child that they it's important <v Marilyn Ferguson>to master certain things, but they're helping them a little too much or showing a lot of <v Marilyn Ferguson>concern that the child doesn't think that he's really going to be able to master it. <v Marilyn Ferguson>So there's both the need to succeed and the conviction that you can't <v Marilyn Ferguson>a real double, double bind and that <v Marilyn Ferguson>this fear of success syndrome is the thing that keeps us kind of <v Marilyn Ferguson>playing safe. We won't take that challenge because we might fail. <v Marilyn Ferguson>So we do want to get too close to it and we keep drawing back. <v Marilyn Ferguson>There is a passage from the playwright Apollinaire, 'Come to the edge, <v Marilyn Ferguson>he said. They said, we are afraid. <v Marilyn Ferguson>Come to the edge! He said. <v Marilyn Ferguson>They said, we are afraid again.
<v Marilyn Ferguson>He said, Come to the edge. They came. <v Marilyn Ferguson>He pushed them and they flew.' I think that <v Marilyn Ferguson>the transformative process is us stressing, even stressing <v Marilyn Ferguson>each other in- in a- kind of- I think we're all a lot of us are involved in a kind of a <v Marilyn Ferguson>mutual teaching learning relationships in our friendships and all our relationships <v Marilyn Ferguson>and with things that happen in our lives. <v Marilyn Ferguson>And that one of the exciting things happen- that happens in terms of the <v Marilyn Ferguson>support networks, the friends that you have, the friends that I have, the people who are <v Marilyn Ferguson>nurturant to us is they also- they- they help us through. <v Marilyn Ferguson>They say things to us at just the right time. <v Marilyn Ferguson>They ask us the questions we're afraid to ask ourselves and- <v Marilyn Ferguson>and they help us. We're helping each other to fly by going through that fear by coming <v Marilyn Ferguson>to the edge again and again. [Song: North Stary by Argon] <v Michael Toms>That piece of music for those of you who might be interested, is called North Star
<v Michael Toms>by a group that we play often, a group called Argon. <v Michael Toms>We're talking with Marilyn Ferguson, the editor and publisher of Brain/Mind Bulletin, <v Michael Toms>the author of a book called, The Brain Revolution, about some of the amazing things <v Michael Toms>that are happening in research into the human brain. <v Michael Toms>Marilyn, one of the criticisms of what some of the movements that you've been talking <v Michael Toms>about, we've been exploring here the movement towards transformation, the <v Michael Toms>search for the spiritual side of life, looking for the deeper <v Michael Toms>meanings of being alive is that the- <v Michael Toms>these movements tend to be exclusive, that they're not crossing <v Michael Toms>many lines. <v Michael Toms>In some cases they're almost elitist in a sense. <v Michael Toms>For instance, we don't see a whole lot of ethnic minorities involved in much of this. <v Michael Toms>How do you- how do you see that? <v Marilyn Ferguson>I think there's a very practical reason for this that doesn't <v Marilyn Ferguson>have to do with exclusiveness, because I think basically these groups are inclusive
<v Marilyn Ferguson>in that- that anyone is welcome to be involved, <v Marilyn Ferguson>but that we don't tend to take <v Marilyn Ferguson>up this interest until we have exhausted those things that our culture promised <v Marilyn Ferguson>us would bring us happiness, that basically people have to have <v Marilyn Ferguson>discovered that affluence, success and the other aspects <v Marilyn Ferguson>of- oh, you know what? <v Marilyn Ferguson>Basically what the culture holds out is its rewards- don't fill that need. <v Marilyn Ferguson>And that for most people in our society, there is still the possibility <v Marilyn Ferguson>that if they get whatever it is that they want, either in terms <v Marilyn Ferguson>of material or achievement type things, that that will <v Marilyn Ferguson>that that will satisfy that hunger so that- <v Marilyn Ferguson>Jean- Francois Revel who wrote, Without Marx or Jesus, in which he predicted <v Marilyn Ferguson>10 years ago, that the second great world revolution would take place in the <v Marilyn Ferguson>United States if it took place anywhere.
<v Marilyn Ferguson>He made the point that- that there is always this charge. <v Marilyn Ferguson>Well, it's the, uh, the upper classes or the upper middle classes or the highly educated <v Marilyn Ferguson>people who are involved and so on, he said <v Marilyn Ferguson>this has historically been the way of revolution, that that is <v Marilyn Ferguson>usually where revolution starts because it has to start among <v Marilyn Ferguson>those people disenchanted with the best that the culture has to offer. <v Marilyn Ferguson>He said there had to be aristocrats in France who had sampled <v Marilyn Ferguson>the joys of the court and found them wanting to participate in the revolution. <v Marilyn Ferguson>There was- in fact, Tocqueville made the point <v Marilyn Ferguson>in Democracy in America when he was writing about revolution and and <v Marilyn Ferguson>suggesting the direction he thought that- that it should happen <v Marilyn Ferguson>in France or that the change should take place was that it was essential <v Marilyn Ferguson>that the educated classes participate in helping to form the
<v Marilyn Ferguson>new. Because if they didn't, the the people who had started the revolution in that <v Marilyn Ferguson>case or the popular level of revolution didn't know where to go with it. <v Marilyn Ferguson>And indeed, the French Revolution had, as you know, terrible repercussions <v Marilyn Ferguson>on that account, but that there is there is <v Marilyn Ferguson>a need for people on the inside to turn against and reject <v Marilyn Ferguson>the status quo that the people who who have it and <v Marilyn Ferguson>that it makes sense, you know, from a really from really logical point of view. <v Marilyn Ferguson>And I've you know, I've heard this this is as you know, this has been commented <v Marilyn Ferguson>on for a long time at a typical conference on consciousness. <v Marilyn Ferguson>There are not very many ethnic minorities there, and uh, there are not <v Marilyn Ferguson>very many people there who have- Well, for one thing, of course, the cost of a lot of the <v Marilyn Ferguson>conferences may keep people who would like to be there from from attending in <v Marilyn Ferguson>terms of a wide socioeconomic representation.
<v Marilyn Ferguson>But I think gradually that's that's changing. <v Marilyn Ferguson>It is changing as more people achieve what they wanted to achieve and say, oh, wait a <v Marilyn Ferguson>minute, that's not enough. And that's- it's a phase. <v Marilyn Ferguson>You know, it's a stage that all of this is going through. <v Michael Toms>I'd like to go back for a moment to the scientific paradigm in your newsletter, <v Michael Toms>of course, is something that covers a lot of the advances that are taking place in <v Michael Toms>science. But you're covering it from another from a new perspective. <v Michael Toms>and so you're Pathfinder, as it were. <v Michael Toms>And I see a lot of the things happening in science. <v Michael Toms>I think most recently, as the most recent example, is a movement to oust parapsychology <v Michael Toms>and the study of psychicphenomena from the American Association for the Advancement <v Michael Toms>of Science. And this backlash. <v Michael Toms>And we're talking earlier before the program about the irony of- <v Michael Toms>of all of that in the sense if you look at the history of science and every breakthrough <v Michael Toms>was total odds with the existing scientific paradigm of the moment. <v Michael Toms>You know, we have contemporary scientists, scientists who are well known, who are famous
<v Michael Toms>as indeed famous and respected in their field, saying this <v Michael Toms>doesn't have anything to do with science without. <v Michael Toms>[sounds of agreement] How do you see that? <v Marilyn Ferguson>I think. <v Marilyn Ferguson>Well, parapsychology has had many, also many famous allies and famous <v Marilyn Ferguson>scientists like Einstein who were open to it. <v Marilyn Ferguson>And and Margaret Mead, who is a matter of fact, spoke on behalf <v Marilyn Ferguson>of the parapsychologist to get them into the Triple A S in the first place. <v Marilyn Ferguson>And as you may know, as- John Wheeler, I believe it was, the physicist <v Marilyn Ferguson>had- had suggested that parapsychology be removed from the academy. <v Marilyn Ferguson>And my understanding is that Kenneth Boulding, the president of the organization, <v Marilyn Ferguson>vigorously defended the freedom of research, <v Marilyn Ferguson>the right to study anything, no matter whether John Wheeler liked it or not. <v Marilyn Ferguson>It was still science as long as it was being designed scientifically. <v Marilyn Ferguson>I think that there is- there- the backlash, <v Marilyn Ferguson>I think, is too little and too late.
<v Marilyn Ferguson>The real is, as someone has said, the paradigm <v Marilyn Ferguson>shift about paradigm shifts has happened. <v Marilyn Ferguson>And that was the transformation that even though not- <v Marilyn Ferguson>not everyone is in sync with that at this time. <v Marilyn Ferguson>Enough people have begun to recognize the fact that that there is that <v Marilyn Ferguson>phenomenon in science, that there isn't any turning back. <v Marilyn Ferguson>The problem seems to be, and I've been discussing this with people- in fact we were <v Marilyn Ferguson>talking about maybe putting together a symposium in conjunction with one of <v Marilyn Ferguson>the university extensions or something on creativity in science to <v Marilyn Ferguson>expose more people to the understanding of what you just said, that all <v Marilyn Ferguson>the breakthroughs in science appeared to be crazy in the first place and why we keep <v Marilyn Ferguson>repeating this. This business of is treating <v Marilyn Ferguson>every major new idea as a heresy of of <v Marilyn Ferguson>punishing the people who advance the idea before, you know,
<v Marilyn Ferguson>bruised and battered. They're finally accepted. <v Marilyn Ferguson>If they're lucky, they're still alive. <v Marilyn Ferguson>Somehow this is the whole scientific process of breakthroughs, <v Marilyn Ferguson>which we badly need now, particularly with the energy crisis and so on, could be speeded <v Marilyn Ferguson>up if there were more acceptance. The really brilliant, creative, breakthrough <v Marilyn Ferguson>type scientist, innovative scientists are all complaining about the politics of research, <v Marilyn Ferguson>the politics of doing science. <v Marilyn Ferguson>They are expected always to account for what it is they're going to find. <v Marilyn Ferguson>You know, you're not going to get any money to do any research unless you can tell them <v Marilyn Ferguson>what you're gonna find. Well, if you're moving into an an unknown area, how do you know? <v Marilyn Ferguson>And supposing in the course of the experiment, something really strange comes up and you <v Marilyn Ferguson>want to pursue that, that's not in your grant. You didn't say you were going to do <v Marilyn Ferguson>that.[laughter, Host: Right] So I think there's an there is a need to <v Marilyn Ferguson>speed up the process of understanding the paradigm shift. <v Marilyn Ferguson>Niels Bohr, the great physicist, once said of an idea of his colleague Heisenberg <v Marilyn Ferguson>and as a matter of fact, it was an idea that didn't pan out.
<v Marilyn Ferguson>But he was asked what he thought of this idea of Heisenberg. <v Marilyn Ferguson>And he said, it isn't crazy enough to be true. <v Marilyn Ferguson>This is if the new idea <v Marilyn Ferguson>were sensible, you would have thought of it a long time ago. <v Marilyn Ferguson>It would have just naturally followed. But it's when you come to this point of tension, <v Marilyn Ferguson>and this is true in our personal lives, too, in our personal experiences. <v Marilyn Ferguson>You've got a dilemma that you can't seem to resolve. <v Marilyn Ferguson>It doesn't fit- it doesn't fit your old belief system. <v Marilyn Ferguson>There seems to be these anomalies, these paradoxes, these things in your life that aren't <v Marilyn Ferguson>working. And what the only thing that will finally get you through <v Marilyn Ferguson>it is a paradigm shift. It's some totally new perspective that resolves that <v Marilyn Ferguson>paradox. And we have to be willing to look at it. <v Marilyn Ferguson>We have to be. And mostly we do what scientists do with the para-psychological <v Marilyn Ferguson>phenomena. We sweep it under the rug. It's too uncomfortable. <v Marilyn Ferguson>Don't tell me that stuff, because that whole scaffolding on which I'm standing <v Marilyn Ferguson>might fall if I had to look at it.
<v Michael Toms>It's really the antithesis of creativity to create those parameters <v Michael Toms>of those boundaries, those limits, so we can only do this within this nature. <v Marilyn Ferguson>Nature isn't allowed to do [laughter] that thing it's doing. <v Marilyn Ferguson>And as Saint Augustine said, there are no miracles in contradiction <v Marilyn Ferguson>to nature, only in contradiction to what we understand of nature. <v Michael Toms>Yeah, I think it's something that Jacques Vallee talked about - what- when he talks <v Michael Toms>about, how he first got interested in the study of UFOs and <v Michael Toms>became- and got interested in space science was when he was an astronomer in France. <v Michael Toms>And- and in the process of studying the stars, they were coming up and they were taking <v Michael Toms>photographs and they were coming up with photographs of- of objects that didn't exist <v Michael Toms>within the realm of what the paradigm was. <v Michael Toms>And so they were just erased. <v Michael Toms>And so what are we erasing these for? <v Michael Toms>You know this- well, it doesn't fit. <v Marilyn Ferguson>Oh, that's perfect. Get really literal erasing of it. <v Marilyn Ferguson>Well, you thought. Did you see the movie? Oh, God, yes.
<v Marilyn Ferguson>John Denver. George Burns. I loved that part where it was so perfect <v Marilyn Ferguson>after George Burns, alias God appears in the courtroom. <v Marilyn Ferguson>And they had the hearing in the chambers afterward. <v Marilyn Ferguson>And they find that the tapes and the transcripts don't reflect what happened. <v Marilyn Ferguson>Two of the four or five people sitting there immediately decide they don't have to <v Marilyn Ferguson>believe it anymore. As long as no permanent record exists, the experience <v Marilyn Ferguson>of their eyes and ears, they can forget. <v Speaker>[Song: The Wings that Flys Us Home by John Denver] <v Speaker>[Song: The Wings that Flys Us Home by John Denver]
<v Speaker>[Song: The Wings that Flys Us Home by John Denver]
New Dimensions
Part 3
Producing Organization
KQED-FM (Radio station : San Francisco, Calif.)
New Dimensions Foundation
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The Walter J. Brown Media Archives & Peabody Awards Collection at the University of Georgia (Athens, Georgia)
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Episode Description
This is the third episode, "Brain/Mind," as described above. Host Michael Toms interviews Marilyn Ferguson.
Series Description
"A selection of seven two-hour cassette recordings of programs produced in the weekly series, 'New Dimensions,' of which 29 programs were broadcast in 1979 including 28 new programs, among them 15 'live' broadcasts. This series, which ran for six years, is not now in production. "All programs feature intro theme, introduction of guests, musical selections interspersed with interview segments, station I. D. at mid-point, and musical selection as program outro. All cassettes are [labeled] with date of original broadcast on KQED-FM. "This series is comprised of adventures into the farther reaches of human awareness, featuring conversations with people pursuing life in new and challenging ways. Programs in this selection explore: THE TAO OF PHYSICS, with the author of the book of the same name, a look at the balance and interaction of complementary forces in the universe; The future of the species, with the co-founder of the World Future Society; BRAIN/MIND, the discoveries and emerging possibilities in the field of mindpower, with the editor of Brain/Mind Bulletin; A discussion of the poetry and music inherent in daily life, with a teacher of dance and movement; SENIOR ACTUALIZATION AND GROWTH EXPERIENCE, a program for revitalizing the lifestyles of senior citizens; BODILY TRANSFORMATION, with the co-founder of the Esalen Institute; and THE CORPORATE STATE, with the author of The Greening of America. "See also New Dimension's other entries in categories # 3, 4, 6, 7."--1979 Peabody Awards entry form.
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Director: Catalfo, Philip
Executive Producer: Toms, Michael
Guest: Ferguson, Marilyn
Host: Toms, Michael
Producer: Catalfo, Philip
Producing Organization: KQED-FM (Radio station : San Francisco, Calif.)
Producing Organization: New Dimensions Foundation
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The Walter J. Brown Media Archives & Peabody Awards Collection at the University of Georgia
Identifier: cpb-aacip-8e07a18108f (Filename)
Format: 1/4 inch audio cassette
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Chicago: “New Dimensions; Brain/Mind; Part 3,” 1979-03-31, The Walter J. Brown Media Archives & Peabody Awards Collection at the University of Georgia, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC, accessed June 20, 2024,
MLA: “New Dimensions; Brain/Mind; Part 3.” 1979-03-31. The Walter J. Brown Media Archives & Peabody Awards Collection at the University of Georgia, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Web. June 20, 2024. <>.
APA: New Dimensions; Brain/Mind; Part 3. Boston, MA: The Walter J. Brown Media Archives & Peabody Awards Collection at the University of Georgia, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Retrieved from