The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour

Thank you. Good evening. I'm Jim Lara in Washington. Welcome to this special edition of the NewsHour. In a few moments, President Bush will address the nation from the Oval Office about the violence that has followed the Rodney King jury verdict. We will follow that with some analysis and then a major discussion of the divisions of race in this country. Earlier today, Mr. Bush sent 1,000 federal law enforcement officers to Los Angeles, 2,500

U.S. Army troops, and 1,500 Marines were ordered to stand by for duty. And the Attorney General announced a federal grand jury investigation of the Rodney King case. So far, at least 36 people have died in Los Angeles, at least 1,300 are injured and more than 3,000 have been arrested. The violence began Wednesday night after four police officers were found not guilty of beating a black man named Rodney King. The incident had been videotaped here now. It is important to you about violence in our cities and justice for our citizens. Two big issues that have collided on the streets of Los Angeles. First, an update on where matters stand in Los Angeles. 15 minutes ago, I talked to California's Governor Pete Wilson and Los Angeles Mayor Tom Bradley. They told me that last night was better than the night before. Today, it's calmer than yesterday. But there were still incidents of random terror and lawlessness this afternoon. In the wake of the first night's violent, I spoke

directly to both Governor Wilson and Mayor Bradley to assess the situation and to offer assistance. There are two very different issues at hand. One is the urgent need to restore order. What followed Wednesday's jury verdict in the Rodney King case was a tragic series of events for the City of Los Angeles. Nearly 4,000 fires, staggering property damage, hundreds of injuries, and the senseless deaths of over 30 people. To restore order right now, there are 3,000 National Guardsmen on duty in the City of Los Angeles. Another 2,200 stand ready to provide immediate support. To supplement this effort, I've taken several additional actions. First, this morning, I've ordered the Justice Department to dispatch 1,000 federal riot-trained law enforcement officials to help restore order in Los Angeles beginning tonight. These officials include FBI SWAT teams, special riot control units of the U.S. Marshall service,

the Border Patrol, and other federal law enforcement agencies. Second, another 1,000 federal law enforcement officials are on standby alert should they be needed. Third, early today, I directed 3,000 members of the 7th Infantry and 1,500 Marines to stand by at El Toro Air Station, California. Tonight, at the request of the Governor and the Mayor, I have committed these troops to help restore order. I'm also federalizing the National Guard, and I'm instructing General Colin Powell to place all those troops under a central command. What we saw last night in the night before in Los Angeles is not about civil rights. It's not about the great cause of equality that all Americans must uphold. It's not a message of protest. It's been the brutality of a mob, pure, and simple. And let me assure you, I will use whatever force is necessary to restore order.

What is going on in LA must and will stop. As your President, I guarantee you this violence will end. And now, let's talk about the beating of Rodney King. Because beyond the urgent need to restore order is the second issue, the question of justice, whether Rodney King's federal civil rights were violated. What you saw and what I saw in the TV video was revolting. I felt anger. I felt pain. I thought, how can I explain this to my grandchildren? Civil rights leaders and just plain citizens fearful of and sometimes victimized by police brutality were deeply hurt. And I know good and decent policemen who were equally appalled. I spoke this morning to many leaders of the civil rights community. And they saw the video as we all did. For 14 months, they waited patiently, hopefully. They waited for the system to work. And when the verdict came in,

they felt betrayed. Viewed from outside the trial, it was hard to understand how the verdict could possibly square with the video. Those civil rights leaders with whom I met were stunned. And so was I and so was Barbara and so were my kids. But the verdict Wednesday was not the end of the process. The Department of Justice had started its own investigation immediately after the Rodney King incident and was monitoring the state investigation in trial. And so let me tell you what actions we are taking on the federal level to ensure that justice is served. Within one hour of the verdict, I directed the Justice Department to move into high gear on its own independent criminal investigation into the case. And next on Thursday, five federal prosecutors were on their way to Los Angeles. Our Justice Department has consistently demonstrated its ability to

investigate fully a matter like this. Since 1988, the Justice Department has successfully prosecuted over 100 law enforcement officials for excessive violence. I am confident that in this case, the Department of Justice will act as it should. Federal grand jury action is underway today in Los Angeles. subpoenas are being issued. Evidence is being reviewed. The federal effort in this case will be expeditious and it will be fair. It will not be driven by mob violence but by respect for due process and the rule of law. We owe it to all Americans who put their faith in the law to see that justice is served. But as we move forward on this or any other case, we must remember the fundamental tenet of our legal system. Every American, whether accused or accuser, is entitled to protection of his or her rights. In this highly controversial court

case, a verdict was handed down by a California jury. To Americans of all races who were shocked by the verdict, let me say this, you must understand that our system of justice provides for the peaceful, orderly means of addressing this frustration. We must respect the process of law, whether or not we agree with the outcome. There is a difference between frustration with the law and direct assaults upon our legal system. In a civilized society, there can be no excuse, no excuse for the murder, arson, theft, and vandalism that have terrorized the law-abiding citizens of Los Angeles. Mayor Bradley, just a few minutes ago, mentioned to me his particular concern, among others, regarding the safety of the Korean community. My heart goes out to them and all others who have suffered losses. The want and destruction of life and property is not

a legitimate expression of outrage with injustice. It is itself injustice. And no rationalization, no matter how heartfelt, no matter how eloquent can make it otherwise. Television has become a medium that often brings us together. But his vivid display of Rodney King's beating shocked us. And the America it has shown us on our screens these last 48 hours has appalled us. None of this is what we wish to think of as American. It's as if we were looking in a mirror that distorted our better selves and turned us ugly. We cannot let that happen. We cannot do that to ourselves. We've seen images in the last 48 hours that we will never forget. Some were horrifying almost beyond belief. But there were other acts, small but significant acts in all this ugliness that give us hope. I'm one who respects our police. They keep the

peace. They face danger every day. They help kids. They don't make a lot of money. But they care about their communities and their country. Thousands of police officers and firefighters are risking their lives right now on the streets of L.A. and they deserve our support. And then there are the people who have spent each night not in the streets but in the churches of Los Angeles praying that man's gentler instincts be revealed in the hearts of people driven by hate. And finally, there were the citizens who showed great personal responsibility, who ignored the mob, who at great personal danger helped the victims of violence regardless of race. Among the many stories I've seen and heard about these past few days, one sticks in my mind. The story of one savagely beaten white truck driver alive tonight because four strangers,

four black strangers, came to his aid. Two were men who had been watching television and saw the beating as it was happening, came out into the street to help. Another was a woman on her way home from work. And the fourth, a young man whose name we may never know. The injured driver was able to get behind the wheel of his truck and tried to drive away, but his eyes were swollen shut. And the woman asked him if he could see and answered no and she said, well, then I will be your eyes. Together those four people braved the mob and drove that truck driver to the hospital. He is alive today only because they stepped in to help. It is for every one of them that we must rebuild the community of Los Angeles for these four people and the others like them who in the midst of this nightmare acted with simple human decency.

We must understand that no one in Los Angeles or any other city has rendered a verdict on America. If we are to remain the most vibrant and hopeful nation on earth, we must allow our diversity to bring us together, not drive us apart. This must be the rallying cry of good and decent people. For their sake, for all our sakes, we must build a future where in every city across this country, empty rage gives way to hope. For poverty and despair, give way to opportunity. After pieces restored to Los Angeles, we must then turn again to the underlying causes of such tragic events. We must keep on working to create a climate of understanding and tolerance, a climate that refuses to accept racism, bigotry, anti-Semitism, and hate of

any kind, any time, anywhere. Tonight, I ask all Americans to lend their hearts, their voices, and their prayers to the healing of hatred. As President, I took an oath to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution, an oath that requires every president to establish justice and ensure domestic tranquility. That duty is foremost in my mind tonight. Let me say to the people saddened by the spectacle of the past few days, to the good people of Los Angeles caught at the center of this senseless suffering. The violence will end. Justice will be served. Hope will return. Thank you, and may God bless the United States of America.

In a moment, we'll have some analysis of the President's speech, but first we have a report on events today in Los Angeles from Jeffrey Kay of Public Station KCET. Late yesterday afternoon, the situation was chaotic. Looting was widespread. At one location, looters leaving an appliance store created a traffic jam as they escaped, clutching their merchandise. It wasn't until yesterday afternoon that police began to restore a semblance of order by making mass arrests of looters. About the same time, 2,000 national guard troops arrived in Los Angeles to assist law enforcement officials. At dusk, a curfew took effect in Los Angeles and adjoining cities, as a result parts of LA were deserted. Hundreds of fires still raged, not as many as the night before, but there was one big difference. Vandalism had spread beyond the confines of South Los Angeles, the predominantly black community where disturbances started.

We saw looting close to Hollywood to the north. Fires along Hollywood Boulevard, a world-renowned tourist landmark, might give non-angelinos some appreciation for the scope of the lawlessness. Even while scattered fires burned, for the most part last night, the police seemed to own the streets. The National Guard stood by at selected locations. At a midnight press conference, officials, including California Governor Pete Wilson, said the curfew seemed to be effective. The mayor has imposed a curfew. I'm convinced that the curfew is working, that it will work. Over a long weekend provided we have an attic with show of force. The kind of presence that is necessary to allow law enforcement to make the arrests necessary. Officials who had already authorized deployment of 4,000 national guard troops announced they were requesting 2,000 more. Once the officers of the sheriff and the chief

have secured a building that has been looted, we are going to provide the troops from the guard who can stay on station. At a particular site to assure that the looters do not return, that freeze the officers makes them mobile to go out and make arrests, both on the streets and to actually arrest the people who have been involved in looting. By daybreak when the curfew ended, people who returned to their businesses in many cases discovered that the curfew had not worked for them. While firefighters continued their efforts, residents of Los Angeles had to cope with numerous power outages, closed banks, post offices, schools and other businesses. There are few people in Los Angeles whose lives have not been disrupted in some way. LA is known for its racial and ethnic diversity and it is important to note that members of all races were both victims and perpetrators of

violence. Along Western Avenue, Asian shopkeepers cleaned up what remained of their looted stores. Do you think that you were targeted because you were Asian? There was a lot of feeling about that. I don't know because I know in whole street here, I saw it does matter, you know, what's going to be there? Vietnamese, Chinese, foreign and whatever, it still happens. Even, you know, America, and I saw America now, so get into this target for them. Further down Western Avenue, lines for gasoline started to form, a first indication of inevitable shortages being faced in some devastated communities. At a Viva supermarket, neighbors volunteered to clean up. Among them, local residents, Kenny Long, long teachers at a public high school. What's going to happen when people get hungry and need to go to a market to eat? I think that's when they're going to really come to their senses. They're not going to be able to get food. You know, I don't think that the communities, if we don't establish a hold on this

place so it doesn't go down, they're not going to rebuild in these communities anytime soon. I've been watching for the last 20 years and just this place over here, it was just rebuilt after all, the last situation. And our last situation being 1965? Yes. What's Ryan? Yeah, exactly. So it took a while to get this re-establish? I'd say at least two decades. And now you're worried that it's going to take water as much time as that. Exactly. But it again. Yeah, but it now becomes a community concern and we have to protect what we know is our support. Those who still have some good sense need to come out and try to talk some sense into those who have not what I'm not thinking at this time. The dawn to dusk curfew will remain in effect indefinitely according to Mayor Tom Bradley. President Bush has authorized the dispatch of 4,000 federal troops to Los Angeles along with an additional 1,000 US agents. But even with a beefed-up police presence and calls for peace, many residents are looking out for themselves. Hundreds of stores have been closed, so some people are hoarding food,

not knowing where or if it will be readily available in their neighborhoods. The man at the center of it all, Rodney King spoke out this afternoon for the first time since the four police officers were acquitted. He was emotional as he made a statement in Los Angeles calling for an end to the violence. People, I just want to say, can we all get along? Can we get along? Can we stop making it hard before the older people and the kids? I mean, we've got enough smoggy in Los Angeles, let alone to deal with the suddenly fires and things. It's just not right. It's not right. It's not going to change anything. We'll get our justice. They won the battle, but they haven't won the war.

We'll have our day in court, and that's all we want. I love, I'm neutral. I love every, I love people of color. I'm not likely to give me out, picking me out to be. We've got to quit. We've got to quit. After all, I'm going to understand the first upset for the first two hours after the verdict, but to go on and to keep going on like this and to see the security guard shot on the ground. It's just not right. It's just not right, because those people will never go home to their families again. I mean, please, we can get along here. We all can get

along. We just got to, I mean, we're all stuck here for a while. Let's try to work it out. Let's try to beat it. Let's try and work it out. Violence has been reported all across the country. San Francisco was under a state of emergency today after massive riots and looting there. 1,400 people were arrested overnight. In Las Vegas, a police officer was shot and wounded after a mob of people set fires and the city's predominantly black west side. The mayor imposed a curfew and Nevada's governor activated more than 300 national guardsmen. In Atlanta, windows were smashed and bystanders were beaten. Police fired tear gas into a crowd of black college students who were throwing bricks at the officers. Disturbances were also reported in New York City, Pittsburgh, Omaha, Seattle, Tampa and St. Louis. Now to some analysis of what

President Bush said tonight and other reaction from our regular team of Gurgen and Shields, David Gurgen, editor at large of U.S. News and World Report, syndicated columnist Mark Shields, and Eddie Williams, head of the Joint Center for Political and Economic Studies. First on the President's speech, Mark. Did he say and do the right thing tonight? Yes, I think we saw George Bush at his best tonight. Jim, I was reminded. First of all, we hadn't had a real human response and reaction from George Bush. Somebody who's really not comfortable in the public display of personal feelings. And tonight he told us of his own anger, his revulsion, and how he didn't know what to tell his grandchildren about the verdict in the case. And I thought he was quite presidential. It reminded me of a story in his own autobiography where George Bush talked about the highlight of his political career, which was when he was a congressman from Houston having voted in the Congress as a, I think, the only Southern Republican for the Open Housing Act in 1968. He returned to an angry

town meeting and explained his vote, and he said that night when he went home, he never felt better. And I think he probably feels good tonight. Do you feel good, Eddie Williams, about what the President said and did? Well, I think the President had three tests to pass tonight. And one of them, he passed with flying colors, and the other two, I think he failed. The President joined all Americans in expressing outrage at the violence and the beatings of the shooting in Los Angeles and in other places. And of course, as President and a head of commander of our forces, he has the authority and indeed the responsibility to help bring order. He has demonstrated that he can make effective use of that power and of those forces. And in terms of bringing calm to Los Angeles and other places, I have no doubt that he will succeed. As Mark said, he did display his personal outrage at the videotape and perhaps some surprised at the outcome. But it seems to be the President failed to understand that what is that issue here is much larger than Rodney

King, the verdict and Los Angeles. The issue here deals with race relations in America. Nothing in his speech acknowledged that. Nor did he give any evidence that he had the foggiest idea of how to deal with the long-term, festering problems of race in America. Unfortunately, he did not provide leadership for what I would refer to as the silence of the sheepish political structure in America in terms of dealing with this crisis. David? I think Eddie Williams says to me very important, Jim. I felt the President's speech was excellent as far as it went. He dealt very, very well. It seems to me with legal justice in his country putting an end to violence and assuring a fair outcome in the case of Rodney King. I thought he did not deal with the question of social justice in the country. He did not acknowledge what the roots of the violence, the volcano that

we see erupting in Los Angeles. It reflects a cauldron of boiling anger and frustration that we see in city after city where people are losing jobs, where their families are disintegrating, where they feel held down. When we went through this in the 60s, I felt we had moral passion about dealing with the underlying causes and that gave us hope. I saw no moral passion here about dealing with the underlying problems. Mark, do you think what the President said to and I will make any difference to anyone who's involved in this? I think it will, Jim. I think I think the full force and majesty of the federal government on the side of local officials anywhere is always a help. If you mean the violence. I really do. And I think the idea of the President, I find myself in a very uncomfortable position. I was not looking for George Bush to give his statement on civil rights tonight. I was looking for him to address what was a serious problem

in Los Angeles and in other cities. And I thought he did. And I thought he did use the phrase underlying causes, which of course has always been a quote of a buzzword for liberals on the cost of civil rights, which has been denigrated and attacked in the past by conservatives. So George Bush did take a risk. I guess perhaps my level of expectation was not nearly as high as my colleagues, Eddie, and David. But I do think that it will, it shows the President squarely on the side of pursuing justice in this case. And I think, I think it was a step. I mean, was it a cosmic answer? No. But I think it was an important step. Okay. David, it's been suggested going into this speech tonight. And by many commentators today, that part of what we have seen in the Rodney King case, the verdict, the original incident, the verdict, and then the violent reaction to it is a symptom of a failed political leadership in this country, both among white political leaders, as well as black leaders, who have used division of race to their political advantage. What

you're feeling about that? Well, I think the politicians have contributed to the divisions of race and class in the country in two ways. First of all, on both sides, on all sides, people have played on racial symbols. We have Willie Horton coming through a public and we once had law and orders, code words coming from Republicans. The Democrats have played upon the notion of victimization of blacks instead of encouraging more self help within the black community, which I think would be what would be a step forward. They have instead told blacks, you're all victims. And you know, this is all hunky justice that you're facing. But the other and larger problem, I think, with our politics, Jim, and I think we saw it again tonight. It has been what I would consider a conspiracy of silence among our leading political figures and often, frankly, in the press about what's really happening in this country, the fact that 25 years after the riots of the 60s, the racial divisions are still deep. The chasm is still wide and it's bitter and that in the 1960s,

blacks were earning about 60 percent of what whites were earning on an average family level. Today, they're earning 60 percent. Their unemployment rate continues at twice that of whites and indeed, the gap is widened since the 1960s. What we've seen with the school children, and what we've seen with the disintegration of families, we need a politics that comes to grips frankly, candidly, with people of all sides and say, let's deal with this. Let's move ahead in America. George Bush now talks about himself as an agent of change, a president of change. Where is the change represented by this speech? Where is the change represented by other candidates to deal with this, so we've talked, we made this commitment in the 1960s to deal with these underlying problems, to bring us together as one people. We now find ourselves not just two people, but splitting apart into tribes. Any Williams, what's your analysis of why not only political leaders, but other institutional leaders have been reluctant to discuss these things in an open and frank way, but black leaders as well as white leaders and other minority leaders?

Well, the issues are painful, the issues are enormously complicated. The issues involve economic policy, as well as political participation, social policy. And I think we as a society have not yet determined. We have not yet mustered the political will to come to grips with these issues. The color line is just as great today as it was during slavery or after slavery, during the days of W.E.B. Du Bois. And that's why I really am so disappointed that the president did not use this occasion to do more than to solve the problem of violence in the streets tonight. As Americans, we're all with him on that tomorrow and forever. But to deal with the deeper issue, I would have thought that minimally in this political season where these issues are going to continue to dog him and all the politicians all the way into the presidential election, that he might have called for a blue ribbon non-partisan high-level commission to begin to grapple

with these issues. And in a sense, to deep politicize, to challenge government Clinton and Mr. Ross Perot and others to support such a move. This is one way to overcome the silence, to get our political leaders, our corporate leaders, our educational leaders, and our religious leaders on the ramparts saying to America, this shall not continue. But he did not rise to that occasion. And I think we're all the worst for it. Mark, do you feel it's even possible to remove politics from the racial situation as it exists in this country right now? Could President Bush have done effectively what Eddie Williams wanted him to do? Well, I'm not sure that there is that remedy, that action statement are initiative that is going to bring sort of a legislative response to this. I mean, there was in the 60s when we were passing landmark and historic civil rights bills. I don't know, Jim. It has been an enormous

advantage to the Republicans ever since Lyndon Johnson signed the Voting Rights Act in 1965 and the Open Housing Act of 1968. The Democrats have averaged about 38 percent of the white male vote in the country. And there's no question that there has been a political advantage to the Republicans on the question of race in America. But I do want to say a word about at least one American politician who has confronted it, who's confronted it bluntly and courageously. And that's there to Bill Bradley of New Jersey, who was confronted this issue, who was put it before the nation long before we learned the Third and Western in Los Angeles was a battle site long before we knew that Crenshaw was bombed out area. I mean, he said to the Senate of the United States and publicly and in forum after forum, the cities of America are poorer, sicker, less educated, and more violent than any time in my lifetime. And, you know, the failure to address that is a failure in all our parts, because as he added 57 percent of the workforce

entering in the year 2000, in this country will only be native-born white Americans. And the rest of them, the other 43 percent, ain't going to be that. And the fate fortunate future of this country rests upon the non-native-born, non-white Americans to make it. David, I was, Mark mentioned Senator Bradley, I was thinking also of Senator Jack Danforth of Missouri on the Republican side, who said on this program, and when he was knocking the White House, we're not going along with a civil rights bill, that we, this country, cannot afford any more division on race, and everything should be done to avoid this kind of thing. He predicted almost this kind of thing might happen. He did exactly, and there are people of goodwill on both sides who would like to see some progress. It is possible to put together a coalition in this city, just as it's possible to put together coalitions, almost every state and city in this country, of people who are, who are just exhausted

with the problems of the past, and want to move on. They want to get some solutions and move on. Okay. Well, gentlemen, thank you very much, Mark Eddie, David, as usual. Thank you very much. It was in 1967 that President Johnson responding to other riots across the country appointed a national commission, the Kerner Commission, to look for causes and answers. The Kerner reports, summed up its findings with the memorable words. Our nation is moving toward two societies, one black, one white, separate, and unequal. America's newspapers and television screens were full of statements today, which said in effect, it has now happened. 24 years later, the United States of America is a nation disunited by race. And the Rodney King verdict and the explosive reactions to it are merely dramatic evidence that of that reality, if you have been willing to talk honestly and openly about. Well, we talked earlier this evening about it with a group of editors, columnist, and essayists from across the country. Ed Baumeister of the Trenton, New

Jersey Times, Lee Column of the Dallas Morning News, Clarence Page of the Chicago Tribune, Erwin Knoll of the Progressive Magazine in Madison, Wisconsin, Cynthia Tucker of the Atlanta Constitution, Gerald Warren of the San Diego Union Tribune, and Richard Rodriguez of the Pacific New Service in San Francisco. Clarence Page, first to you, are we more divided along, well, I'm not going to go to Clarence Page, he is not with his yet. But let me start with you, Cynthia. Do you believe that we are more divided along racial lines and we have been willing to admit and to discuss and to deal with up to this point? Oh, that is absolutely true. And if there is any good thing that can come out of the Rodney King verdict, I think it would be an mission on the part of the nation that that is in fact true. One of the most frustrating things that African Americans have had to deal with over the last decade is white Americans' refusal to accept the truth of continuing racism. Many well-meaning rights say, we had a successful civil

rights movement, those issues have been dealt with, racism no longer exists, and you can't see racism. In many cases, you can't prove it. African Americans know it continues to exist, but we've been unable to convince many white Americans that it does. And I think the Rodney King episode, if we get anything out of it, can bring us to that admission that racism clearly is alive and well in this country. Irwin Knoll, what, in your opinion, is the major truth that has gone unspoken up till now about race in this country, race to race. She, Cynthia put it in racism terms, I was trying to put it in racial division terms. Well, I think there is racial division, I think it's profound and corrosive, and I think it's been encouraged and fostered from the top. I think these riots that we've been experiencing the last couple of days might well be called the Willy Horton Memorial riots, reflecting the ugly racism that was fostered

by President Bush's campaign four years ago. But I want to add that the terrible problems of the cities have not only been ignored by this administration, they've hardly figured in the democratic presidential primaries so far. The leadership of this country is content to condemn and consign the poor, the minorities to the hell, which is their daily existence, and doesn't want to do anything about the problems that are reflected in these terrible outbursts. We will get to the political leadership question later in the program, but what I first want to do here is to try to identify what the problem is. For instance, Ed Baumice are the perceptions that differ between white people and black people in this country. When you saw the Rodney King videotape, the original videotape of the incident, what did you see? Did you see

it as white police officers beating on a black man because he was black? Well, to ask a newsman that question is not to ask the man on the street, I think I first saw it as a matter of excessive use of police force, which is an old story. I saw it we cover more easily actually than we cover the story of race. But it became evident obviously that Mr. King was black and that this was, in a way, not surprising. I mean, if you talk to black people, ordinary black people, and say Trenton, they will say that the police are rough on us, rougher on them than they are on other, on whites or other minorities. Yeah. I mean, you can hear that so that it was probably no surprise to anybody in Los Angeles who happened to be black, that this kind of force was used. But I think, finally, made an impression on whites across the country. But I saw it first as police brutality,

and then the race issue second. Clarence, page is now with this now. Do you believe personally Clarence that the white officers involved in that incident would have reacted differently and acted differently if Rodney King had not been black? Jim, I'd like to believe that they would have, but there's very little in my experience here in America that would tell me that they would. I think the fact is that the realities of the country are right now that police do a reputation for dealing more harshly with blacks than with whites. But it's very hard to separate hear the racial angle from the general crime angle. The fact is that there's a lot of fear of crime. Crime has become overly identified with black people, unfairly so. Just as everyone know was saying a moment ago, the Willie Horton campaign is indicative of it. I hate to get back into politics, but it's a fact of the landscape of the country. And it's very depressing for me, as I sit here at Ohio University, my alma mater, when I was here in the late

60s, when that Kerner Commission report was being written, I was watching riots on television, like I'm watching riots on TV right now. It's like Yogi Berra said, deja vu all over again. And I feel like we are two countries. I was hoping we would have made a lot more progress by now in understanding each other. And we've still got too much black resentment of white in action, too much white resentment of black crime. And I'm sorry it takes a riot for us to focus attention back on it again, but that is what has happened. Lee, column do you agree? We are two nations? Yes, Jim. I think we are two nations. I think that we look like the Serbs and the Croats today. It is exceedingly disturbing. Our police chief in Dallas, Bill Rathburn, who was with the Los Angeles Police Department for 30 years, and ran South Central Los Angeles for three years, the force there, believes that those police officers would have behaved brutally to anybody,

African-American, Asian-American, Hispanic-American, Anglo-American. He thinks that what is needed is a lot more training. Police officers are being asked to do jobs in which they were never trained, for which they were never hired. And that doesn't excuse what happened. It actually makes it all the more appalling that police officers are not better prepared for the jobs they must do. Richard Rodriguez, when you saw the original tape, did you see it as a white police officers abusing a black man or officers abusing their power period? I think my first impression was of the simply of the human drama, the cruelty of the event. I thought of that same video tape the other night when I saw blacks beating on a white truck driver, the horrible quickness with which a human body capitulates to that kind of violence. If I could just come back to the question of the Kerner Commission, it seems to me that we really

are not in the 1960s anymore in America, certainly not in multiracial Los Angeles. To talk about America as falling into two halves, one white, one black, again ignores the enormous complexity of what America has become the last 30 years. Los Angeles is a Mexican city. It is the second largest Mexican city in the world. It is now increasingly an Asian city. The violence directed against Korea now and primarily, but Asian now in business in South Central Los Angeles is a very important component to this whole story. The presence of Hispanic looters among the black looters in Los Angeles is a very important part of this story. I really would insist that we see this not simply in the old black white dichotomy, but in more serious ways as a more profound rupture of the American fabric. And the divisions you mean are even, there's more to that than just black and white. Absolutely. On the one hand, I saw on television, as you did, Hispanics moving side-by-side

from one store to another, looting. On the other hand, there were Hispanics in Los Angeles who called me on the phone, who told me that they were upper-class Hispanics, middle-class Hispanics, who told me that they were as afraid as any white person would be to drive in Los Angeles over the last 24 hours. So that that kind of dichotomy, that kind of complexity, seems to me to be more of a part to where we are in 1992. Jerry Warren from San Diego, Southern California, close to where a lot of this is happening right now, which you're overall perspective. What do you, how would you respond to what Richard Rodriguez, to Richard Rodriguez's description of the division? I think he's on to something. I think San Diego in many ways is similar to Los Angeles. We're increasingly a Hispanic city, increasingly in Asian city. But unfortunately, I got back to something that was said earlier. I think you have one nation with leaders who

try to deal with all people on the same way, including most police departments in the United States. But unfortunately, the profile of a criminal more closely fits the black person, but it does the white person. So the underlying feeling that you were asking about earlier, Jim, is that most white people, when they see a policeman, feel safe and secure. But most black people that I have talked to, since this happened, tell me that they don't feel that way when they see a policeman. Well, what if you reverse it? Do most white people feel more unsafe when they see an ordinary black person than when they see an ordinary white person? I would hope that's not the case. I don't know whether that's the case. But I have a feeling that, in many cases, it is true. Now, are these the kinds of things Ed Baumeister that we must now talk about in this country? Before, that kind of just exchange that I just had with Jerry Warren would have been considered

awful in this country. I think it is. I admit that when I walk into New York, I'm afraid anyway, because it's New York, perhaps. But I wonder whether a black person might be more likely to be aggressive towards me. I harbor no prejudice. I try to be as open with myself about my feelings as I can. But it does exist unless we start admitting it and dealing with it, we're going to wait another 25 years. I'll be another scratch across the fabric as this was. And we'll examine it again and somehow get it back, stitch back up, and it will fester again. It's a real problem. Cynthia Tucker, does that offend you to have this kind of conversation? Oh, it doesn't offend me to have the conversation at all. I think the conversation is absolutely necessary. I think we must get all these things on the table, including the stereotypes. It is absolutely clear to me already that many white citizens do have an excessive and abnormal fear

of black people, particularly black men. It doesn't do any good to talk about it. But I do think once we lay the stereotypes on the table, we've certainly got to get beyond the stereotypes. I know many professional black men who are law-abiding citizens who are abhorred and appalled by the fact that they can't catch a cab on the streets of major cities in the country because they're viewed as potential lawbreakers. So once we lay out the fears and the stereotypes, we've got to get beyond that. Well, Clarence, let me ask you this question. Do you believe, personally now, that if that jury that heard this case against these four police officers, had had, say, let's say the makeup of the jury was 10 whites, one Asian, and one Hispanic. Let's say it had been 10 blacks, one Hispanic, and one Asian. Do you believe they would have

convicted those four officers? Again, that's a speculative question. I have a lot of time answering it. I'm really burning to answer your earlier question. I wish you would ask me about that feeling if I'm offended by the conversation about black crime. I'm the one who brought black time into this conversation, Jim. I think we need to take that out of the realm of political incorrectness and talk about white perceptions of crime. I have a three-year-old son. Everybody agrees is very cute. But I know when he's about 12 or 13, and he's walking on the street as a young black male teenager, people are like Ed Baumeister are going to be fearful of him. I don't blame it for that. I, too, am fearful sometimes when I run into young black males on the street. Let's think for a moment of how that affects young black males and their men power and how they are perceived. I feel I would be a different kind of a guy if I was growing up today as so many young kids on the street are. That's what I was talking about earlier when I said we're moving toward two societies. Richard Rodriguez is right. It's a lot more

complex than just black and white. Let us not be fooled by the rainbow coalition we see on the streets every day. It is true. There are more of us working in the media and other workplaces in integrated surroundings than ever before, but we still go home at night to separate neighborhoods. We still live largely separate lives, and it has gotten more complex. When the current commission reconvened in 1987, they said we are moving toward more than two nations. We're dividing along lines of class as well as race. That's what we have not dealt with this. It's not enough. The guys like Clarence Page get good jobs and move on to the suburbs. What about the people left behind? That's what you see on the streets of LA right now. It's a combination of a lot of resentments and anger. It's almost academic to talk about what a white black jury have done or a white jury. We are news people. We do know that the opposite has occurred. There have been black officers let off after abusing whites. I realize that reality. Let's talk about what the more common realities are on the streets of America today. But to the perception

questionly column, as a white person, does it offend you when you are lumped with jurors in this county in California, or when you see white people attack innocently by blacks or others who are upset over this verdict? What do you, how do you, do you react as a white person, or is it something else? I think it's impossible not to react as a white person, Jim. I have to say when I saw the tape, I was appalled by what I was seeing. I was seeing a barbaric act. There's no doubt about it. I think I reacted from what I hope was a humane perspective. When I heard the verdict, I was appalled again. I thought, how can this be? This is a shock. This is unbelievable. I have to confess to you when the looting began and when the burning began and as it continued, I began to respond as a white person. And I've had to struggle to retain reason and to retain compassion. There's no doubt about that, no doubt about

it at all. Richard Rodriguez, are you having trouble maintaining compassion as just as an individual in this whole situation? Compassion toward who? To everybody who's involved. Everybody who may and you're opinion from your perspective have done something wrong. I mean, compassion is always the hardest of human feelings to sustain, especially in areas as complex as this. I do believe policemen who tell me that the world is very rough out there and that seen from their perspective, life is very raw and the city very dark. And I don't mean a pun when I say that. I do know that, for example, in San Francisco, in a relatively upper-class neighborhood, I do not go jogging before the sunrise in the morning because on the several times that I've gone jogging, policemen pull me over. The last time were two black women policemen who pulled me over to the side of the road. They saw a dark man. They sat on the other side of the park who was prowling around some

park automobiles. So I learned not to go jogging. Now, what is my reaction to that? Well, I guess this is complicated as the reaction of a lot of white women in my neighborhood who have to walk to their houses at night in the middle of the street because they can't walk on sidewalks. We live in a very complicated society, and I keep coming back to the story of a friend of mine who talks a black friend of mine who is a journalist in this city, which is a predominantly Chinese city now, who talks about his definitely going into Chinese restaurants and Chinese grocery stores. The sort of reaction that Clarence is talking about is a reaction that he feels now in the Chinese city. I think that the complexity of relationships is very, very important to talk about because a lot of Chinese kids would want me to tell you that they get beat up a lot when they're in Grammar School in high school in this town by bigger black kids. Should we be naive about that? Should we pretend that these kids are not harboring resentments, which their parents also hear?

Jerry Warren, do you have any compassion for any of these people who looted and said they did it out of anger because of what that jury did to those four police officers in the Rodney King incident? It is very difficult to feel compassion for outright lawbreakers and criminals. I feel compassion for the black community who sits as we do watching the television sad and seeing their neighborhood burned around them. I feel compassion for the young people who didn't riot and who didn't loot and who didn't kill and who didn't set fires, but who do not really have the same opportunity that my children have. Irwin, no, how would you measure your compassion? Where would you come down on this? I'm talking personally now, not politically,

but personally, as you watch this thing unfold, are you torn? Is it clean for you? It's not clean. We've had three dozen people die in the last couple of days. We've had people dispossessed from their homes or their businesses. That's terrible, but we have to remember, too, that the people who did these terrible things are the dispossessed, the alienated of our society, the people who have no stake whatsoever. In it, I've been sitting here listening to my colleagues and watching them on the monitor in this studio and thinking, how remote we all are from those people in the inner cities? How little we represent them and how I, sitting here, as a middle-aged male on the McNeal era show, convey the image to the rest of the country that we, the white middle-aged males, are the people who own America and run it. And I can't help it

that people feel enraged, furious, destructive, even murderous, ultimately, when that frustration and anger builds up in them. Cynthia, do you feel that when you speak, either as a editorial writer on the Atlanta Constitution or on this program or anywhere else, that you speak for those people, the very people that Erwin Noah was talking about? Well, Erwin just raised a very fascinating point that I identify with in many ways, because in many ways, Clarence and I are as separate from and as distant from those dispossessed that we're sitting here talking about as Erwin Noah is, I have said many times when I have gone in to speak in high schools in Atlanta, particularly, predominantly black high schools in impoverished neighborhoods, that to those kids, I might as well be white. My language is so different. My background is so different. My values

are so different. And one of the things that has happened that was distinctly different from the race relations of the 1960s, I think, is that now not only are we divided into a nation along all kind of racial and color lines, but we're also also divided along class lines, so that the black upper and middle classes are also separate and alienated from those dispossessed and poor youth. And so, you know, that's the reason why it would not make any difference what the so-called black leaders are saying to them. It doesn't matter that the mayor of Los Angeles is black, because not by any fault of his own, but Tom Bradley is very distant from them as well. All right, we have to leave it there. Thank you all very much. Again, to recap, the events in the rioting story of Los Angeles on this Friday,

the death toll rose to at least 36, and other 1,300 people have been injured. President Bush denied committed army troops and Marines to the effort. He also federalized the National Guard. He said he will use whatever force is necessary to restore order. And there was another violent incident in California today, apparently unrelated to the Los Angeles situation. A gunman is holding as many as 40 hostages at a high school in Ollie, first California, 35 miles north of Sacramento. He has already shot one adult and seven students. Officials believe he is a disgruntled former student at the school. And that's it for this special edition of The NewsHour. You have a nice weekend. We'll be back at our regular time on Monday night. I'm Jim Lara. Thank you and good night. Part of helping the world live and communicate better is keeping it well informed. That's why funding for the McNeil Air NewsHour is provided by AT&T and by PepsiCo. PepsiCo and by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting and viewers like you.

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