The MacNeil/Lehrer Report; Illegal Immigration

ROBERT MacNEIL: This is an alien registration card. 4.7 million people in this country carry one. The government says another six to eight million aliens don`t have one because they are in the United States illegally. America`s traditional image of humane, controlled immigration has turned into an uncontrolled flood. How can it be stopped?

Good evening. Last year more than 800,000 foreigners entered the United States illegally. The same number are expected to this year. In many minds, the problem of illegal immigration has reached crisis proportions. The United States, as one writer put it recently, has lost control of its borders. The six to eight million aliens living here illegally, by government estimate, cost Americans some thirteen billion dollars a year in welfare, medicine, schools, low-income housing and lost taxes. Some claim they also contribute significantly to the unemployment of American citizens. Jim?

JIM LEHRER: It`s a problem, Robin, that official Washington is finally facing up to, with both Congress and the administration considering some drastic action. President Carter took a first step today with the swearing in of a new Commissioner of the U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service. He`s Leonel Castillo, a former Houston, Texas city official and the first Mexican-American ever to hold the job. At the White House swearing in today the President conceded he didn`t envy the task he has given Mr. Casti_11o. The President said, "It`s one of the most difficult jobs in government. Sometimes I think it`s perhaps harder than the Oval Office, particularly at this time." Well, that`s an ominous sendoff, and Mr. Castillo is with us tonight to discuss how he`s going to go about doing this tough job. But first, a look at some history and at why the President may think it`s so tough. Robin?

MacNEIL: The United States prides itself on a 200-year history of opening its borders to the displaced and unwanted peoples of the world. It is a nation built on immigrants: people drawn here by the promise of a better life and by America`s need for labor. But despite the inscription on the Statue of Liberty, the welcome has not been without conditions. Before World War I the country put no restrictions on the number of immigrants, but it did bar undesirables -- convicts, prostitutes, the chronically ill, and paupers. The 1917 Immigration Act added Hindus and other Asians, illiterates, stowaways and vagrants to the unwanted list. In 1924, immigration quotas based on national origin were set; the visa system was instituted. The Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952 kept the national origin quota system but eliminated race as a bar to immigration. In 1975 Lyndon Johnson signed a new immigration law eliminating national origin quotas. For the first time there was a ceiling on immigrants from the western hemisphere. Today the U.S. allows 290,000 people to immigrate each year: 120,000 from the western hemisphere, 170,000 from the eastern. But there`s a vast difference between what U.S. immigration law allows and what really happens. The dimensions of that difference are reflected in the mushrooming number of illegal aliens caught trying to get into this country. In 1976 alone, the U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service apprehended 876,000 illegal immigrants. It is generally assumed that officials miss as many illegal aliens as they catch, and these newcomers join the estimated six to eight million already here unlawfully. Experts believe that two-thirds of the country`s illegal immigrants are concentrated in six states: Massachusetts, New York, New Jersey, Illinois, Texas and California. Most melt into the ethnic sections of metropolitan areas. Illegal aliens come here from many countries: India, South Korea, Iran, Haiti, Jamaica; but the vast majority simply slip over the border from Mexico.

The border between the United States and Mexico is the most crossed international frontier in the world. It is nearly 2,000 miles long and 124 years old. Many Mexicans who cross it are pushed out of their home land by a soaring birth rate and a sagging economy. They are pulled north by the lure of jobs and a better life. Some cross over on limited visitors` passes and just stay. Others try to bluff their way in with forged documents. Others risk, and sometimes lose, their lives trying to come to the U.S. Many pay smugglers, called "cayotes," hundreds of dollars to sneak them across the border. They often fail in their attempts, but the motto of "1amigra"-- the immigration - is always try, try again. The typical illegal Mexican alien is twenty-eight and a half years old, male, single and doesn`t speak much English. He has less than seven years of education, and 5.4 dependents. The illegal aliens` main adversary is the U.S. Border Patrol, a 2,000-man force which polices this country`s international frontiers. The Border Patrol uses modern technology: infrared scanners, seismic sensors, airplanes. But it`s a revolving door process. An illegal alien caught trying to sneak over the border will usually try again, and usually succeed. Jim?

LEHRER: Now, let`s find out what the Carter administration generally, and Mr. Castillo specifically, may do about all of this. As I said, the President doesn`t think it`s going to be easy for his new Commissioner of the U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service. Commissioner, do you agree with your bosses` or the President`s assessment of how tough your job is going to be?

LEONEL CASTILLO: I think there`s no question but that it`s a very difficult situation right now. We have enormous problems with illegal entry and with legal entry and administratively as well.

LEHRER: All right. Your predecessor, Leonard Chapman, said that illegal immigration is totally out of control and that the U.S. is being overwhelmed by a silent invasion. Is that yours and the administration`s view of it, too?

CASTILLO: There`s no question but that there have been enormous influxes. I don`t like to use phrases like "out of control," but there is no question but that we are going to have a very difficult time containing our own borders, or defending and protecting the borders and entry points --ports and airports, and so on -- of the United States. We have 2,000 miles on the southern border alone, and very few officers; they`re smaller than the police force of Washington, D.C. We had until this week only one helicopter for the entire 2,000 miles. In the City of Houston we have fourteen. Waiting lists are just unbelievably long.

LEHRER: This is even for legal immigration.

CASTILLO: For legal immigration -- for both of them, it`s a very difficult situation.

LEHRER: Let`s talk about some specifics now in terms of some of the proposals. Some ideas have already gotten out, as you know, as to what the administration may have in mind, and let me run through some of these and kind of get your feeling for how you feel about some of these. For instance, the question of amnesty -- amnesty for illegal aliens already here, but under certain guidelines as to how you would go about -- what`s your feeling about that proposal?

CASTILLO: I think that, just as the Ford administration decided that there was no way that you could reasonably, humanely, efficiently round up that many people -- millions of people; you can`t go door to door and knock on every American home and try to determine who`s a citizen -- the Carter administration similarly is moving toward some form of equity or amnesty. Details are anything but fixed. But it does appear to me that that would be a practical and humane way to deal with a very serious problem.

LEHRER: In other words, these six to eight million who are already here, you would set up a machinery...

CASTILLO: If you had been here X number of years and you had been a productive resident -- that is, someone who`s not on public welfare, someone who has been a good citizen, has no police record, and so on; good character -- you have some equities in that sense, you could apply for permanent resident alien status. At least, that`s the thinking right now, and I think it does make some sense. The United States has done this in the past and we currently have such a law in effect, but it goes all the way back to 1948 -- you must have been here since 1948.

LEHRER: One of the proposals, I understand, is to move it, say, to 1968?

CASTILLO: Congressman Rodino had suggested that date, and then Congressman Eilberg similarly is moving on that date.

LEHRER: What`s your idea on that?

CASTILLO: One of my difficulties is that I can`t get a good grip on these figures because the estimates of numbers of persons that are here illegally range from two million to twenty million, depending on who you speak with and which reports you read. Obviously, there are very many, and obviously, the exact number will have great impact on what program we finally adopt. I think it`s probably more realistic to say something more recent than `68.

LEHRER: I see. All right; employers: some feel that they are the crux of the problem -- the employers` need for cheap labor -- and that the employers should be held accountable for hiring illegal aliens either through a criminal or a civil process. What`s your view of that?

CASTILLO: I think the criminal penalty would be too severe and almost unenforceable. The heads of the Justice Department and other people involved in administration of justice don`t go along with that, either. Civil penalties has some possibilities. There has been discussion of a fine -- monetary fine -- and possibly developing a method of identification that would not serve as another tool for discrimination. And the real hang-up is over the identification, and not over the penalty on the employer, although there are questions about the penalties on employers.

LEHRER: Aren`t there two questions that arise over this kind of proposal -- number one, that some people within the Mexican-American Chicano community say that this would give employers an excuse for not hiring Chicanos? They`d say, well, he may be an illegal alien, so forget it.

CASTILLO: There are some very serious concerns that have been raised about discrimination as a result of such an act. Most of those, though, come down finally to, how will you identify who is here legally and illegally if you`re an employer? How will an employer know which of his employees has adequate documentation? So what we`re moving toward is an upgraded -- although not to the point of a universal ID card -- but simply a more secure social security card.

LEHRER: You think that`s where it`s going to go, a social security card that would identify every American as a citizen?

CASTILLO: No. I think we`d have a social security card that would be more secure. That is, that when you issue one you have an interview rather than issuing them by mail, and some other safeguards that they can build into the social security system. Now, they`re not all that certain themselves yet as to what this would cost and how long it would take. In the meantime, I have neither amnesty nor employer sanction and must try to enforce the current law.

LEHRER: All right. Now finally, back to a point you raised at the very beginning: the Border Patrol people told our reporter, Carol Buckland, that it`s a joke trying to stop -- particularly over the Mexican border -- illegal aliens from coming into this country because of the lack of people and whatever. What can you do about that specific problem of entry?

CASTILLO: In the short run, without new dollars and new people, I`ll have to redeploy existing resources. That is, maybe take a few more people off of the Canadian border, which already has very few, and move them into the southern border. Hopefully I can find some other sources in terms of personnel in other places in the agency, which would help a little bit, but it clearly won`t be a complete answer. I can also try to get more resources in terms of hardware; that is, helicopters and other types of equipment that the Border Patrol simply doesn`t have now. I talked with one Border Patrol agent who told me that they use a party line telephone to call in in Falfurrias, Texas.

LEHRER: Down in the valley.

CASTILLO: They don`t have even adequate telephones, and they need a lot of support -- material support as well as personnel. And then the third thing that we can do in the short run is we can improve the systems We can give them more support for systems of communications or systems of identification; and we can also, I hope, increase the amount of money that we`re spending on anti-smuggling. Because a lot of the people who come over come over as a result of being brought over through some smuggler who gets them together. If we can go after the smuggler, it`s sort of like going after the narcotics kingpin rather than all the people who carry the marijuana. So I want to concentrate resources on going after the keys in the smuggling rings, and there I won`t need as many resources and I might get more efficient use of what resources we do have. In the long run there are all sorts of ideas about thousands of people and millions of dollars. Hopefully, some of those will become fact; but in the short run I don`t have those big options.

LEHRER: All right. Thank you, Commissioner. Robin?

MacNEIL: One man who has a different perspective on the illegal alien problem and what to do about it is Dr. Cecil Johnson, a professor of biology at Riverside City College in California. Dr. Johnson is a member of the Population Reference Bureau and has written extensively in the field of demography and human ecology. Dr. Johnson, do you agree with the couple of the points that seem to be emerging as the Carter administration plan and just outlined by Mr. Castillo? For instance, a question of amnesty: do you agree that that is a good way to go?

Dr. CECIL JOHNSON: I think it`s one of the most dastardly things that could happen to the American people. In the southwestern part of the United States they`re coming in at the rate of 50,000 a week. Mexico is currently siphoning off two million people a year into this nation, only they haven`t come in legally like the naturalized citizens who used to learn the language, and so forth, but they`re coming in illegally; they have broken our immigration laws, they are criminals and should be so treated. So naturally, the vast majority of people in California, which is one of the bigger states, are vigorously opposed to Carter`s -- the Earl of Amnesty, we call him now out in California...

MacNEIL: Can I ask you just on the amnesty question, if you didn`t amnesty these millions of people that were here illegally, however many they are, what would you do? How would you answer Mr. Castillo`s point of how would you round them up?

JOHNSON: What we`re going to have to do -- first of all I want to say this, and then I`ll get to that: he talks about humanity, the rights of illegal aliens. I`m talking about the rights of black, brown and white Americans whose jobs have been taken, their communities have been overrun like the barrios in East Los Angeles; in Houston, Texas, there`s a twenty-five percent unemployment rate amongst blacks, and a twenty percent unemployment rate amongst browns in East Los Angeles, and there`s a terribly high unemployment rate amongst whites. And when I talk about humanity, I think humanity begins at home in this nation and not worrying about the rights of humans in other places.

MacNEIL: Okay. How would you answer the question of what to do about the millions who are here now, without knocking on every American`s door?

JOHNSON: That is something, we had Operation Clean Sweep back in the 1940`s. In other words, we move a thousand Border Patrol officers into one community, supported by the Marine Corps and armored divisions; it`s going to come to that and then we`re going to have to build deportation centers, pay the people for the property they have accumulated in this nation, however, and then send them back and then help Mexico, for example, foreign aid-wise and pour some more foreign aid into Mexico which we`ve been pouring into India and Vietnam.

MacNEIL: What do you think of the idea of cracking down on the employers, whether through criminal or civil penalties for hiring illegal aliens?

JOHNSON: I think they should be put in a vise and crucified. I have no respect for an American who would give a job -- and it`s happening all over. Where I came from the other day they arrested two illegal aliens who were framing houses for $180 a day apiece. And the jobs aren`t the poor people bent over in the fields; they have moved into every aspect of American life, and also in the Southwest they`re going to use these people for political cannon fodder. And this is just exactly what`s happened: the Southwest is being overwhelmed and the face of this nation is changing and my grandchildren and others will not grow up in the same world and have the same opportunities I had. We have an obligation to the yet-unborn children of America, not to the humanity that`s pouring in. It`s not our fault that Mexico has practically a forty percent unemployment rate, but it`s also not our fault that Mexico reproduces more children than any nation in the world and then she doesn`t have anything to do with them; but they`re very smart because they are siphoning off the people between eighteen and thirty, their potentially political hotheads, because they don`t want a revolution in Mexico. So therefore, get rid of your young because they`re the most volatile groups and put them into the United States.

MacNEIL: Can I ask you one more question? You`ve written and talked about your estimates of the numbers of jobs that Americans might have or legal aliens in this country might have but are now held by illegal aliens. What is your estimate of the total number?

JOHNSON: The estimates on illegal aliens, first of all, could be between six to twenty million; there`s no exact figures. But because we don`t have exact figures doesn`t mean that we don`t have a major crisis facing this nation, the likes of which we have never faced for a long time.

MacNEIL: But how many are working?

JOHNSON: The Immigration and Naturalization Service, when General Leonard Chapman was there and the Border Patrol, is really feeling badly these days, I can assure you. Morale is at an all-time low, like it is in the FBI, because the Carter administration moving on the Justice Department -- it should be called the Injustice Department -- they`re taking eight million jobs away from American citizens. And when somebody says they want to treat these illegal aliens humanely, fine; but tell them to go down to Watts, where I live, and tell the black young people that are out of work that they`re concerned about the rights of these people! I`m talking about the rights of out-of-work black, brown and white Americans, because really the amnesty law, the amnesty which is coming in, is for one group of people: it is for Mexican illegal aliens who make up the vast majority of illegal aliens in this country.

MacNEIL: Thank you. Jim?

LEHRER: Commissioner, I got the impression that Dr. Johnson disagrees with you. No, but let`s talk about some of these points, gentlemen. First, the question that Dr. Johnson just raised, Commissioner: how do you respond to this, the fact that it is possible to round these people up and they should be treated as criminals? After all, they did violate a law, they entered this country illegally.

CASTILLO: The effects of Operation Wetback and operations of that sort on the U.S. citizens are very serious. Complaints followed for decades, and I think...

LEHRER: In what way?

CASTILLO: The possible harassment and deportation of U.S. citizens that we`re also concerned about. What we`ve found is that if we`re not careful we`re deporting U.S. citizens who look foreign; and what we also find is that sometimes we deport people who have a legal right to be in this country. And I think a lot of groups have a legitimate concern about someone knocking on your door and making a determination as to whether you should be in this country.

LEHRER: Dr. Johnson?

JOHNSON: This is the typical smokescreen, police-state type of propaganda I`ve heard from activists since the 1960`s. Number one, the way not to prejudice skin color would be to have a national identity card which I`ve been preaching for for the last two years. Every American citizen has one, and that way an American citizen is not going to be sent across or someplace else because of skin color. The national I.D. card would be fingerprinted magnetically, computerized and fitted to national computer scans. It can also be used to cash checks, to get loans, to get bonded. It would have a variety -- we already have it: we have drivers` licenses. And I`ll tell you this much about the amnesty, and I talked to the Border Patrol and I know a lot of them, and they are very sad this day, is that...

LEHRER: You`ve said that twice now. Why are they sad? Because of the fact that President Carter appointed this man to be...

JOHNSON: Very definitely because Leonard Chapman -- General Leonard Chapman had done the best job in American history of bringing the morale up and alerting the American people to the fact that the southwestern part of the United States is being taken over. That sounds like it`s not true, but very definitely, if you lived out where I do and see the flags flying, you`ll know.

CASTILLO: How many illegal aliens hold major offices of influence in this country or in the Southwest? And how are they "taking over" the country?

JOHNSON: Well, if you had been around some of the radical Chicano Marxist activists as I`d been around, you`d understand why, because federal money from CETA and other programs which are poverty money supposed to go to help blacks and browns and whites who are citizens, a lot of that money is being given to illegal aliens ... they`re even paying them to learn how to teach English at 2.50 an hour. That money belongs to the American people.

CASTILLO: For a scientist, you keep using words like "a lot of money," ranges of six to twenty million, and I have to wonder how you can say that you`re so certain when your figures are so soft.

JOHNSON: My figures are not soft. In fact, I can assure you...

CASTILLO: Six to twenty million is a pretty good range.

JOHNSON:...that I know more about illegal immigration than you do, because you just came on the job! You know nothing about it.

CASTILLO: How long have you been on this job?

JOHNSON: I`ve been on it -- I`ve been a demographer for twenty-five years...

CASTILLO: No, I mean this job.

JOHNSON:...I`ve studied population migration patterns and I`ve been on this for two, which is a lot longer than you have. I don`t understand how you can do it.

LEHRER: One final thing here, before we go back to Robin: what about the other proposal that Dr. Johnson suggested to stop the flow, which is to put the Marine Corps and Border Patrolmen on the borders and set up deportation camps and that sort of thing? Would you support that sort of approach?

CASTILLO: That is specifically against the law. The United States may not use its armies for these types of ...

JOHNSON: Oh, I disagree with you.

CASTILLO: Well, my general counsel and the lawyers at Immigration and Naturalization...

JOHNSON: That`s incorrect.

MacNEIL: Let him just finish the point.

CASTILLO: I know that this gentleman knows about all the fields, but the lawyers in my office who deal with immigration law and who`ve looked at this for years say that it`s not possible legally; and I`ll have to go with their opinion.

LEHRER: All right. Robin?

MacNEIL: Yes. One thing I`m wondering about is, a lot of these illegal aliens are coming here presumably to answer some kind of economic need, whether it`s the rancher in the Southwest who wants either cheap labor or field labor, whether it`s cheap or not, or some other kinds of economic need. If this country needs people who are willing to do distasteful jobs, why couldn`t it do it openly, as some of the Western European countries have done, like West Germany, for instance, with its guest workers who come in for periods from places like Turkey, live for several years and then go back again? Mr. Castillo?

CASTILLO: We do have a program right now that allows for workers to come in from another country, foreign national workers. First you must make a determination that there is not a U.S. worker who is willing, able, and as a result of hiring a foreign national will not have an adverse effect on the U.S. economy. This is a very limited program at this point. There is some thought of expanding that program; that`s not firm and has no great support, but there are some people discussing that. It would seem that we could do a lot to streamline and improve that program; I think it would help in some respects.

MacNEIL: Can I ask you this in conclusion, Dr. Johnson: is it time, psychologically and historically in this nation, for this nation to turn its back on the so-called "huddled masses" of the world?

JOHNSON: I think until we get our own internal affairs straightened out. As I said, we have eight million Americans out of work; we have got young people getting out of high schools and colleges that can`t get jobs. And if Carter grants amnesty, which will be the worst thing anyone could do to this nation who has any real feeling for it -that`s my personal opinion here, because already I know from the Border Patrol they are down there forging documents: "Well, I lived in this house for five years...." They`re forging all kinds of things, it`s a booming business now, and we`ve lost control of them on our borders now, because they can`t arrest them if they`ve been here five years, so the Border Patrol starts to arrest them and they say they`ve been here five years, they can`t do anything, so the Border Patrol might as well say, "We are finished under Mr. Castillo."

MacNEIL: We have less than thirty seconds, Mr. Castillo. Do you believe it`s time for us to turn our back on those so-called "huddled masses?"

CASTILLO: I think the law says that we shall allow so many hundred thousand per year, and I think we follow that law. I think we should continue to keep our borders reasonably open; obviously, we can`t make them fully open because to do so would be foolish -- we cannot accommodate all the people of the world.

MacNEIL: I think we have to leave it there, Mr. Castillo. Thank you very much. Thank you, Dr. Johnson, and good night, Jim. That`s all for tonight. Jim Lehrer and I will be back on Monday night. Other breaking news permitting, we`ll examine the crisis that threatens one of the staples in the American diet -- tunafish. I`m Robert MacNeil. Good night.