New Dimensions; The Tao of Physics; Part 3

<v Fritjof Capra>Or fascist, even if you wish. <v Fritjof Capra>But, uh, I think that this dynamics is an evolutionary dynamics which, uh, <v Fritjof Capra>is going to take place whether or not we want it or we, you know, hinder <v Fritjof Capra>it further. And the only choice we have is to choose <v Fritjof Capra>in - in which culture we want to be and whether we want to be part of the declining one <v Fritjof Capra>or of the rising one. So I'm very optimistic in - in terms of the future. <v Fritjof Capra>Of course, now we are in a situation where we do have the possibility <v Fritjof Capra>to stop everything and to blow ourselves up. <v Fritjof Capra>That is a very real danger which - which didn't exist in the past - in the <v Fritjof Capra>past conscious. But apart from that, I am very optimistic <v Fritjof Capra>that that all these various movements will rise and - and <v Fritjof Capra>become stronger. <v Fritjof Capra>And let me maybe spend a few minutes in <v Fritjof Capra>-explaining why I have this optimism. <v Fritjof Capra>What - what leads me to be optimistic is here. <v Fritjof Capra>10 years ago - we had also 15 years ago,

<v Fritjof Capra>in the 60s, there was the first awareness <v Fritjof Capra>of these new ideals and these new values and <v Fritjof Capra>of the redundancy of traditional values in <v Fritjof Capra>our culture and traditional positions. <v Fritjof Capra>And there were all these social and philosophical and spiritual <v Fritjof Capra>movements that started in the 60s. <v Fritjof Capra>You had the free speech movement in Berkeley and <v Fritjof Capra>you had various political movements. <v Fritjof Capra>You had the black power movement. <v Fritjof Capra>Then you had the various spiritual movements. <v Fritjof Capra>Eastern mysticism became very popular and people became <v Fritjof Capra>very interested in meditation, things like that. <v Fritjof Capra>Then you had the human potential movement, uh, third force in psychology, Maslow <v Fritjof Capra>and these people who started a new types of psychology, Gestalt psychology, <v Fritjof Capra>Fritz Perls and all these people, the whole human potential movement,

<v Fritjof Capra>you had the beginning of the ecology movement. <v Fritjof Capra>And I think it would really be interesting if we could say travel back 15 <v Fritjof Capra>years and see who - who used the word <v Fritjof Capra>ecology. And I think it was largely unknown. <v Fritjof Capra>It was just beginning to be used. <v Fritjof Capra>Now, it's very well-known. It has really taken hold. <v Fritjof Capra>There was the rising feminist movement and all these movements, uh, <v Fritjof Capra>were largely separated and <v Fritjof Capra>followed individual goals. <v Fritjof Capra>In the 70s, I think we are realizing, and we can almost so we say <v Fritjof Capra>we have realized because the 70s are almost over, that these <v Fritjof Capra>movements are really going all in the same direction. <v Fritjof Capra>And I am using this yin yang <v Fritjof Capra>terminology to say that they are going away <v Fritjof Capra>from an over emphasis of yang or masculine values and attitudes towards a balance

<v Fritjof Capra>between the yang and the yin, the masculine and feminine. <v Fritjof Capra>You'll see that in the human potential movement that emphasizes <v Fritjof Capra>intuition, sensuous experience, <v Fritjof Capra>using the body as a means of knowledge and so on, personal experience, <v Fritjof Capra>the ecology movement, uh, that sees how everything is hanging together, everything, how <v Fritjof Capra>everything is interrelated. <v Fritjof Capra>The spiritual movements again using the intuitive <v Fritjof Capra>mode of consciousness, mysticism, religion, <v Fritjof Capra>the feminist movement, using the <v Fritjof Capra>feminine part in all of us and particularly in women. <v Fritjof Capra>So - so all these movements to me seemed to go in the same direction. <v Fritjof Capra>And I think in the 1980s we will see the flowing together of all <v Fritjof Capra>of them. And then this this counterculture, this rising culture will become extremely <v Fritjof Capra>powerful and, uh, will reach a critical mass

<v Fritjof Capra>sometime where -where it will become the dominant culture. <v Fritjof Capra>And the only thing we can hope is that that this shift in values, <v Fritjof Capra>which is not often called a paradigm shift also these days, that it <v Fritjof Capra>will happen relatively smoothly. <v Fritjof Capra>It's not going to happen smoothly, but at least let's hope that it's going to have a <v Fritjof Capra>relatively smoothly without too much violence and struggle. <v Fritjof Capra>I mean, physical struggle. Hmm Hmm. <v Michael Toms>Well, as someone who has been bridging the gap between mysticism <v Michael Toms>and modern physics, you've had to come up against <v Michael Toms>the traditional view, the more conservative view of the way physics is <v Michael Toms>or, um, the way it's traditionally structured in people's minds. <v Michael Toms>And I'm wondering what you have to say about, uh, with the rising culture, <v Michael Toms>with the various elements that you've just described of this rising culture and the <v Michael Toms>tendency, um, the emphasis, the move towards wanting to make <v Michael Toms>the connection, wanting to get into the mainstream, wanting to

<v Michael Toms>make holistic health an immediate priority. <v Michael Toms>And at the same time, when doing that with - over here, we have the institution <v Michael Toms>called traditional health care, and I'm just picking on this one as an example, <v Michael Toms>holding on for dear life and I use that term [laughter] and I mean the <v Michael Toms>pun. And it creates the very conflict that you say <v Michael Toms>hope - we hope to avoid. <v Michael Toms>And so I'm wondering what your insights are relative to making that bridge without the <v Michael Toms>conflict, because there is - there is an abundance of energy in <v Michael Toms>this rising culture to make that bridge perhaps sooner than it should be. <v Fritjof Capra>Yes. I wonder whether you picked out healthcare because <v Fritjof Capra>you had an intuitive flash or whether it's your astuteness as an interviewer. <v Fritjof Capra>Because, uh, I'm working on a book that will take precisely that focus. <v Fritjof Capra>And I dont think we have talked about it before the interview. <v Fritjof Capra>[laughter] So it is some kind of synchronistic event, if you wish. <v Fritjof Capra>I think the focus on health is a - is a very good focus

<v Fritjof Capra>because when we talked about ecological balance before <v Fritjof Capra>our yin yang balance, you can rephrase it all in terms of health. <v Fritjof Capra>And I think that's a very useful way to do. <v Fritjof Capra>And it's also a good way politically and psychologically, <v Fritjof Capra>because health is something which is commonly acceptable. <v Fritjof Capra>You don't want to be unhealthy. You don't want to do something unhealthy. <v Fritjof Capra>And you don't have to use traditional terms like communism versus <v Fritjof Capra>capitalism to describe the cultural situation of cultural movements. <v Fritjof Capra>You can use ecological terms and you can talk about health. <v Fritjof Capra>Now, what I'm interested in is to <v Fritjof Capra>what extent classical science has influenced our civilization. <v Fritjof Capra>I have spent about two years now studying the influence <v Fritjof Capra>of the Cartesian Newtonian world view, the 17th century scientific

<v Fritjof Capra>view on the various sciences in our civilization and on <v Fritjof Capra>the various institutions that we have. <v Fritjof Capra>And I found that the influence has been tremendous. <v Fritjof Capra>It is still broadly the accepted view of reality. <v Fritjof Capra>The view that separates the mind from the body, the view that sees that as <v Fritjof Capra>- sees the universe essentially as a huge machine, separate objects working together <v Fritjof Capra>like a huge machine with rigid cause and effect relationship. <v Fritjof Capra>And all the concepts that are part of this <v Fritjof Capra>Cartesian Newtonian world view. This is the basis of classical physics, <v Fritjof Capra>the basis of our technology and so on. <v Fritjof Capra>And it is a view that is not wrong, but it's a view that is limited. <v Fritjof Capra>And we have now reached the limitations of this view in various areas. <v Fritjof Capra>We have reached them in physics. We reached them in physics in beginning of the century. <v Fritjof Capra>And - and the recognition of these limitations led to the tremendous <v Fritjof Capra>scientific revolution that I describe in The Tao Physics led to the world view of the new

<v Fritjof Capra>physics. We have reached this also in medicine, in <v Fritjof Capra>economics, in the various social sciences and so on and in our social institutions. <v Fritjof Capra>What I'm interested in then is how the new physics, how <v Fritjof Capra>the the world view that is closely related to the world view of mystical traditions <v Fritjof Capra>can be a better conceptual framework for <v Fritjof Capra>these various other sciences. <v Fritjof Capra>Now, it's a little tricky because I don't want to fall into the trap <v Fritjof Capra>of holding again physics up as a model. <v Fritjof Capra>You see, the - the sciences have all modeled themselves after Newtonian physics. <v Fritjof Capra>And when I started all this, I thought, well, maybe the new physics will be a better <v Fritjof Capra>model. And in some instances maybe it would be, but <v Fritjof Capra>it shouldn't be held up again as a model because that's maybe not a very healthy <v Fritjof Capra>attitude. But it does show -the experience of <v Fritjof Capra>physics shows that these scientists had to question <v Fritjof Capra>the very basis of their framework in the 1920s especially.

<v Fritjof Capra>And out of this questioning came very profound new insights. <v Fritjof Capra>This is precisely what people in the various field - fields do not do. <v Fritjof Capra>Economists never question their basic framework. <v Fritjof Capra>Psychiatrists never do. <v Fritjof Capra>When you - for instance, when you come into a psychiatric hospital, <v Fritjof Capra>let's say you hear voices or let's say you <v Fritjof Capra>identify in a very direct way with, say, a tree, <v Fritjof Capra>sort of in a way that, you know, you almost - almost merged with the tree. <v Fritjof Capra>Now this is considered to be psychotic, but this is also very characteristic <v Fritjof Capra>of mystical experiences. <v Fritjof Capra>So there's the -the classic called common sense type <v Fritjof Capra>of view, which you need to get through everyday life. <v Fritjof Capra>You know, to get up, have your coffee and do whatever you do during the day. <v Fritjof Capra>But then there's this broader view, which Stan Groff has called a transpersonal <v Fritjof Capra>view, the transpersonal dimension, which

<v Fritjof Capra>many of us have access to, either through long <v Fritjof Capra>training, meditation and so on, or just spontaneously <v Fritjof Capra>where we - all you know - where we move out of our selves and indentify with things <v Fritjof Capra>around us. In some instances, this is acknowledged and <v Fritjof Capra>accepted, for instance, in dreams. You can - you can have dreams of all kinds. <v Fritjof Capra>And they will say, well, it's just the dream you know, that's OK. <v Fritjof Capra>You're not psychotic because your dream, you know, something weird. <v Fritjof Capra>Artists also are accepted. And they sort of a little apart from society, you know, they <v Fritjof Capra>are artists and they can paint things that don't look like things look in everyday life <v Fritjof Capra>or write poetry or music and so on. <v Fritjof Capra>But, uh, if you have it just as an ordinary citizen, then <v Fritjof Capra>you are declared psychotic because psychiatrists don't have this broader view. <v Fritjof Capra>The educational system, doesn't have this broader view. <v Fritjof Capra>And you can just go on and on and look at all our institutions and you'll see that this <v Fritjof Capra>broader world view is not present.

<v Fritjof Capra>And I'm interested now in exploring how we can come to such a broader view. <v Fritjof Capra>And I'm taking health as a focus. <v Fritjof Capra>And in this book on which I am working now, I am talking - <v Fritjof Capra>I'm going to talk about individual health, social health <v Fritjof Capra>and ecological health. <v Fritjof Capra>And, uh, I'm going to treat it from a systems point of view and show the close <v Fritjof Capra>interrelatedness between these various dimensions of health. <v Michael Toms>Sounds very intriguing. Very interesting. <v Fritjof Capra>It is a fascinating subject, you know, the recognition that ?inaudible? <v Fritjof Capra>talks about the ecological dimension and the personal dimension as a closely <v Fritjof Capra>interdependent. <v Fritjof Capra>If you want, you can - want to. I can give you an example. <v Fritjof Capra>Um, uh, If you look at the social dimension <v Fritjof Capra>and, uh, look at the way we run our society <v Fritjof Capra>and you look at pollution and the various work <v Fritjof Capra>conditions and things that are unhealthy as far as the environment are concerned

<v Fritjof Capra>and you look at the economic structure, you very soon find that it's a question <v Fritjof Capra>of economics, because profit maximizing of, you know, various people, companies, <v Fritjof Capra>corporations and so on leads to these imbalanced situations. <v Fritjof Capra>Then you study - this was what I did in studying this whole complex of <v Fritjof Capra>questions that led me into economics and I studied economics. <v Fritjof Capra>And you soon come up against inflation. <v Fritjof Capra>And I just pick this out to have, you know, one subject to talk about. <v Fritjof Capra>It's a very good point, because you will see that most economists are totally <v Fritjof Capra>puzzled and mystified by inflation and and hardly any of them knows how to how <v Fritjof Capra>to deal with it in a meaningful way, because economics is - does not exist <v Fritjof Capra>within an ecological context. <v Fritjof Capra>It exists in a mechanistic, reductionist way, pretty much modeled <v Fritjof Capra>after 17th century science. <v Fritjof Capra>So then you ask what are the causes of inflation? <v Fritjof Capra>And you will find that one of the main causes of inflation is the fact that <v Fritjof Capra>we deplete natural resources.

<v Fritjof Capra>As resources become scarcer, we need more and more energy to extract <v Fritjof Capra>energy or to extract resources. <v Fritjof Capra>And that translates into inflation because for a certain amount of resources you have to <v Fritjof Capra>spend more energy or more money, more labor to get it. <v Fritjof Capra>And - and this is - this is inflationary. <v Fritjof Capra>So the consequence then the lesson to learn from this is that whenever you <v Fritjof Capra>do something economically, whenever you make an - organize some economic activity, <v Fritjof Capra>you should not invest in material, in resources, in energy, <v Fritjof Capra>in machines and so on. But you should invest in labor because human <v Fritjof Capra>ingenuity and human labor is the only resource that we have plenty of. <v Fritjof Capra>And you can apply this to everyday life. <v Fritjof Capra>For - for example, when you mow your lawn, if you use the power mower, you contribute <v Fritjof Capra>to inflation because of all this - of all this machinery that is needed. <v Fritjof Capra>If you mow it by hand with it with a hand mower, it's much less inflationary. <v Fritjof Capra>If you go to the post office to post a letter and you drive, you contribute

<v Fritjof Capra>to inflation. Now, the interesting thing is that when you drive to your post <v Fritjof Capra>office, not only you contribute to inflation, but it's also bad for your individual <v Fritjof Capra>health because you don't get your exercise, which you would get if you walked or bicycled <v Fritjof Capra>to the post office. <v Fritjof Capra>Furthermore, walking to the post office, which may be just, you know, a few blocks or <v Fritjof Capra>should be just a few blocks, and we can come to that. <v Fritjof Capra>Walking to the post office will further social cohesion because you'll talk to your <v Fritjof Capra>neighbors on the way. And so, you know, you'll create a cohesive community, which you <v Fritjof Capra>would not if everybody was just driving. <v Fritjof Capra>And lastly, driving pollutes the air and is therefore ecologically <v Fritjof Capra>unhealthy. And you can analyze practically every kind of activity. <v Fritjof Capra>You will always find this- this close interconnection between ecological, social and <v Fritjof Capra>individual health. It's something that really fascinates me and - and, uh, <v Fritjof Capra>it's really something very significant. I think this is the very essence of ecological <v Fritjof Capra>thinking that the individual, the society and the planet

<v Fritjof Capra>is closely interdependent. <v Michael Toms>Somehow, I don't think the president's Council of Economic Advisers has quite gotten <v Michael Toms>that understanding. <v Fritjof Capra>No, I don't think so. And one of the reasons is that it's the over emphasis <v Fritjof Capra>on the rational mode, the rational scientific mode. <v Fritjof Capra>Now, I'm -I'm not speaking against science as such. <v Fritjof Capra>I wouldn't be a scientist. I'm a very enthusiastic scientist. <v Fritjof Capra>I continue to do research in physics. <v Fritjof Capra>And, uh, I just think that science should be put in its place where it is <v Fritjof Capra>extremely useful, but it has its limitations. <v Fritjof Capra>And when you talk about presidential advisors or government advisors, you should have a <v Fritjof Capra>lot of scientists in there because they know how to think analytically. <v Fritjof Capra>And that's very important. But you should also have poets and musicians and - yes - <v Fritjof Capra>dancers and and other kinds of advisers, philosophers, mystics. <v Michael Toms>Yeah, that's interesting, because just, uh, just the other evening I was watching the <v Michael Toms>Leontyne Price on television at the White House. <v Michael Toms>And it's like the relationship, uh, that I think the political structure, governmental

<v Michael Toms>structure usually has to the artist is one of being entertained. <v Michael Toms>That's right. Yes. Yes, exactly. And there is no avenue for participation. <v Michael Toms>It's like, okay, now entertain us. Now it's time for us to be entertained. <v Michael Toms>[murmers of acknowledgment] So we bring the entertainer in, but there's no participation <v Michael Toms>or bridge to allow the power of the artist or the writer or philosopher. <v Michael Toms>I think of course - And it was all Plato said when philosophers shall be kings. <v Fritjof Capra>Yes, of course they wouldn't bring in Bob Dylan because <v Fritjof Capra>[laughter] that already is you know - the interface between entertainment and advice. <v Fritjof Capra>Well, mayve give it 10 years now and we'll, we'll see it a little differently. <v Fritjof Capra>I want to come back to again going back to - In fact, you know, I've this would be a <v Fritjof Capra>place to put in a word for Jerry Brown, because he does have Gary Snyder as an advisor. <v Fritjof Capra>Yes. So, you know, things are moving in the right - Yes, and Stewart Brand. <v Michael Toms>Right. Is that right? Yeah, that is interesting. <v Michael Toms>I wanted to come back to again taking the premise that you were of the personal health <v Michael Toms>and social health, environmental health and come back to physics <v Michael Toms>as a potential answer or the potential - just

<v Michael Toms>explore with our minds here for a moment of the possibilities of - of <v Michael Toms>answers lying within within physics that might be a solution to the energy <v Michael Toms>problem, um, that are there new possibilities of <v Michael Toms>- of -of energy that may lie in - in the study <v Michael Toms>of physics that could, uh, be a say, a solution to nuclear <v Michael Toms>energy, the problems inherent in nuclear energy. <v Fritjof Capra>Yeah, that's that's, uh, an extremely interesting question and <v Fritjof Capra>one that I would not have been able to answer, say, two months ago in the <v Fritjof Capra>way I'm going to answer it. <v Fritjof Capra>I now believe that - what you're essentially talking about nuclear <v Fritjof Capra>fusion, you see, that's that's the big alternative, because it's <v Fritjof Capra>- it's a non-radioactive way of gaining energy. <v Fritjof Capra>The elements involved are hydrogen and helium. <v Fritjof Capra>It's a process that takes place naturally in the center of the sun and of all the stars. <v Fritjof Capra>And if we can, uh, manage the process here on earth,

<v Fritjof Capra>then we can have a practically unlimited supply of energy without fission products <v Fritjof Capra>that are dangerous, that have radioactive radiation. <v Fritjof Capra>Now, I think the way the situation is now, as far <v Fritjof Capra>as physics and technology is concerned, they are talking about the mid 80s, at least last <v Fritjof Capra>time I heard something about it that they were talking about solving it in the mid 80s. <v Fritjof Capra>I believe now that the solution of the problems <v Fritjof Capra>of nuclear fusion would not be healthy for our culture. <v Fritjof Capra>I would hope that they would not find the solution in the near future. <v Fritjof Capra>Now, the reason for this is - the reason for this can only be seen from a broader <v Fritjof Capra>systems point of view. <v Fritjof Capra>You see the whole ecosystem, the society and <v Fritjof Capra>the culture is out of balance. <v Fritjof Capra>Uh, this being out of balance has various consequences at <v Fritjof Capra>various levels individual, social and and ecological.

<v Fritjof Capra>People are individually unhealthy <v Fritjof Capra>because of environmental influences, there is a high <v Fritjof Capra>rate of cancer, of heart disease, of various, um, <v Fritjof Capra>chronic and degenerative diseases that that our medicine <v Fritjof Capra>doesn't really know how to handle. <v Fritjof Capra>But illness in my view is much - it should be a much <v Fritjof Capra>broader concept. There is, of course, mental illness. <v Fritjof Capra>There's, uh, you know, high - high incidences of what they call schizophrenia, <v Fritjof Capra>depression or other kinds of mental illnesses. <v Fritjof Capra>And there's social illness. <v Fritjof Capra>And, you know, here in San Francisco, we - we are very aware still of, you know, Dan <v Fritjof Capra>White and the slaying of Moscone, and Dan White is <v Fritjof Capra>going to have a trial soon - and the slaying of Harvey Milk is what you meant to say by <v Fritjof Capra>Dan White, and of Mascone - and of Mascone - Yes, Mascone and Milk, right.

<v Fritjof Capra>And, uh, they're going to determine a jury or whoever <v Fritjof Capra>is going to determine whether Dan White was mentally ill or not. <v Fritjof Capra>Now, he may or may not have been mentally ill, but he definitely was socially ill. <v Fritjof Capra>You see. This social illness, which leads to anti-social behavior, <v Fritjof Capra>to violence, crime and all kinds of anti-social behavior is definitely <v Fritjof Capra>part part of illness that - that is is prevalent. <v Fritjof Capra>And then you talk about the ecological framework and there's a <v Fritjof Capra>depletion of resources and general and degrading of the <v Fritjof Capra>ecosystem. You talk about economics and there <v Fritjof Capra>you have not only the influence on the environment, which is a <v Fritjof Capra>main consequence of expanding technology and expanding <v Fritjof Capra>economic growth. You also have the lowering <v Fritjof Capra>of the quality of products in order to keep increasing profits

<v Fritjof Capra>in saturated markets. <v Fritjof Capra>Manufacturers lower the quality of their products and many of these products <v Fritjof Capra>are directly related to health, like food for instance. <v Fritjof Capra>You have less healthy food. <v Fritjof Capra>You have artificial coloring and flavoring, preservatives and all that. <v Fritjof Capra>You know, it gets into agriculture and also products that are not directly related <v Fritjof Capra>to health, but -well, in a sense, yes, because they are related to, say, mental health <v Fritjof Capra>satisfaction. If you buy a car now, it's not the same as, you know, if you bought a <v Fritjof Capra>car 10 years ago, that the quality is just - just very different. <v Fritjof Capra>You buy furniture, everything. Everything gets sort of cheap, plastic, artificial and so <v Fritjof Capra>on. Now, all these are expressions of social and cultural <v Fritjof Capra>imbalance. <v Fritjof Capra>The energy crisis is one expression, is one <v Fritjof Capra>indicator of and it's a very useful indicator of this whole <v Fritjof Capra>complex system that has got out of balance.

<v Fritjof Capra>Now, what we should do to get the system into balance is <v Fritjof Capra>to apply various measures. And we can talk about this in a few minutes to <v Fritjof Capra>get it back into balance. <v Fritjof Capra>I also like to talk about stress in this connection because it has been recognized as <v Fritjof Capra>very essential for individual health. <v Fritjof Capra>You can also talk about social stress and ecological stress. <v Fritjof Capra>So what we have to do is - we have to do some kind of stress management socially and <v Fritjof Capra>ecologically. Now, as I just said, energy is <v Fritjof Capra>a measurement is an indicator of the extent to which things <v Fritjof Capra>have got out of balance. <v Fritjof Capra>If we can solve the energy problem and have more energy, <v Fritjof Capra>an unlimited amount of energy, things will get worse. <v Fritjof Capra>You see, because all those companies will continue producing garbage and selling it <v Fritjof Capra>and, you know, ramming it down our throats with advertising. <v Fritjof Capra>So this whole, you know, bombarding of - of - of adults and children <v Fritjof Capra>on TV with advertising, all these commercials,

<v Fritjof Capra>advertising, essentially useless goods. <v Fritjof Capra>I mean, rarely you see a commercial on TV advertising something useful. <v Fritjof Capra>So all this will continue and it will continue in an increased amount <v Fritjof Capra>because they'll have enough energy. <v Fritjof Capra>So I think that that rather than looking for this solution, <v Fritjof Capra>we should pull ourselves together as a society and do <v Fritjof Capra>things ecologically conserve energy, recycle goods and <v Fritjof Capra>regain individual social and ecological health. <v Fritjof Capra>I think it would be very bad to lose this out of balance. <v Fritjof Capra>Schumacher is one who has recognized this very clearly in his book, Small is Beautiful, <v Fritjof Capra>that the way to have a, uh, an ecological <v Fritjof Capra>society to do this social and ecological stress management would <v Fritjof Capra>be to go to small dimensions, to small units, to apply <v Fritjof Capra>appropriate technology, which is environmentally benign and socially benign,

<v Fritjof Capra>to get away from this heavy, concentrated technology, <v Fritjof Capra>to keep our -our cities small, to control the population. <v Fritjof Capra>All these measures which are by now well known, but it would be much more difficult to <v Fritjof Capra>do this if we didn't have to do them. <v Fritjof Capra>If the energy crisis was solved by having just more - pump more and more energy into the <v Fritjof Capra>system. <v Michael Toms>So you're suggesting we should back off of - of trying to solve that problem now? <v Fritjof Capra>Yes. Now, this doesn't mean that we should not - not develop <v Fritjof Capra>technology. I'm not saying that. We should develop technology in a certain direction <v Fritjof Capra>towards what Schumacher has called appropriate technology. <v Fritjof Capra>For instance, develop solar technology rather than nuclear technology and <v Fritjof Capra>develop all kinds of - of new technologies that's very necessary, we need science <v Fritjof Capra>for that, we need technology for that, but we don't need more energy. <v Michael Toms>We're talking with Fritjof Capra. [Song: Starbright by Pat Martino] <v Dierdre Wu>I'm curious, as we get healthier and healthier as individuals and, um,

<v Dierdre Wu>we start to incorporate certain practices which would raise our energy <v Dierdre Wu>levels. And yet you -