New Dimensions; The Tao of Physics; Part 4

<v Dierdre Wu>I'm curious, as we get healthier and healthier as individuals and <v Dierdre Wu>we start to incorporate certain practices which would raise our energy <v Dierdre Wu>levels. And yet you warn against <v Dierdre Wu>our tendencies to towards having more. <v Dierdre Wu>Doing more in terms of material things and producing more <v Dierdre Wu>Coke bottles and more cars, more things like that. <v Dierdre Wu>What do what do we do with all this? This accumulated energy? <v Fritjof Capra>Well, I I think there's there's plenty to do with it. <v Fritjof Capra>And it would involve a very profound shift in <v Fritjof Capra>values as shift from material growth to inner <v Fritjof Capra>growth, spiritual growth and other other kinds of - <v Fritjof Capra>of inner growth to adopt a new set of values <v Fritjof Capra>and live accordingly to use our creativity <v Fritjof Capra>and ingenuity. You see now most people who work <v Fritjof Capra>have a certain job and they would produce something.

<v Fritjof Capra>They don't like their work. <v Fritjof Capra>They don't like how they produce it. <v Fritjof Capra>And they don't like the end result of it. <v Fritjof Capra>Uh, there - bthere can be a huge amount of energy <v Fritjof Capra>used for producing things that are aesthetically pleasing, <v Fritjof Capra>that are personally satisfying, where the process of production is personally satisfying, <v Fritjof Capra>that that enhances artistic creativity and so on. <v Fritjof Capra>There's just a huge field open once you have changed these values <v Fritjof Capra>and don't just accumulate material, but look at the quality <v Fritjof Capra>of the material - quality versus - versus just the quantity. <v Fritjof Capra>There's a huge field in which we can use energy and ingenuity. <v Dierdre Wu>Uh, you've - you've cautioned us about - about <v Dierdre Wu>as we do uncover this individual energy, um possibly <v Dierdre Wu>developing certain - certain psychic abilities that have been

<v Dierdre Wu>traditionally, um, - they've been feared. <v Dierdre Wu>Yes - actually, the thing is I'm thinking that we could even bypass even the material <v Dierdre Wu>kinds of manipulations and manifestations such as having to walk and things like that and <v Dierdre Wu>actually go ahead and develop those abilities that that we can just we can move <v Dierdre Wu>things and create things mentally. <v Dierdre Wu>You know. <v Fritjof Capra>That that may be possible in the future and once we have gone through this shift <v Fritjof Capra>of values, I think then- then, uh, <v Fritjof Capra>the road would be open to go in those directions. <v Fritjof Capra>I think basically what I'm talking about is a shift <v Fritjof Capra>of values from a - a linear uni -one <v Fritjof Capra>dimensional set of values to a multi-dimensional set of values, and once we <v Fritjof Capra>have done this, we can go in all kinds of directions. <v Fritjof Capra>But if we keep the basic ecological awareness <v Fritjof Capra>that things don't get too far out of balance, then <v Fritjof Capra>then I think the ways open for - for all these various dimensions.

<v Fritjof Capra>Fritjof, what do you think - New Dimensions to coin your phrase [laughter] - Right. <v Fritjof Capra>Exactly. <v Michael Toms>What do you think is the future of nuclear energy? <v Michael Toms>Going back to your earlier remarks relative to fusion. <v Fritjof Capra>I think and I hope that <v Fritjof Capra>the future will - of nuclear energy will be grim for nuclear energy, <v Fritjof Capra>not for us. <v Fritjof Capra>Well, first of all, what I said about nuclear fusion applies also to nuclear fission. <v Fritjof Capra>No more energy at this moment is not it's not healthy for us. <v Fritjof Capra>And with nuclear energy, of course, we have a process of <v Fritjof Capra>gaining energy, which is extremely unhealthy at various levels. <v Fritjof Capra>It is unhealthy at the individual level because it <v Fritjof Capra>is unsafe. <v Fritjof Capra>It has a lot of very severe effects on <v Fritjof Capra>health, which are which are not generally known by the public. <v Fritjof Capra>Helen Caldicott has just come out with a book called Nuclear Madness.

<v Fritjof Capra>She's an M.D., an Australian M.D. <v Fritjof Capra>who has lobbied many years against nuclear power. <v Fritjof Capra>And it's a very, very short and very clear book about the medical consequences <v Fritjof Capra>of - of nuclear reactors. <v Fritjof Capra>And and it just makes you shudder when you when you read it. <v Fritjof Capra>Nuclear energy is also uneconomic. <v Fritjof Capra>And I should say maybe that that talking - speaking as a physicist, <v Fritjof Capra>that the problems of nuclear power are not physic <v Fritjof Capra>physics problems. The problems are, I would say, economic, <v Fritjof Capra>cultural, psychological, technological and so on. <v Fritjof Capra>They're not problems of physics. <v Fritjof Capra>Now, the problems of physics, but I think we can handle those and those have been solved <v Fritjof Capra>largel. <v Fritjof Capra>Nuclear -nuclear power is uneconomic. <v Fritjof Capra>You see what what a reactor does essentially is to heat <v Fritjof Capra>water. And it does so by -

<v Fritjof Capra>through the process of nuclear fission using uranium. <v Fritjof Capra>And it can use only a certain kind of uranium, a certain isotope, <v Fritjof Capra>which does not occur very frequently, naturally. <v Fritjof Capra>The other isotope occurs much more frequently. <v Fritjof Capra>And to have material <v Fritjof Capra>that is appropriate to start deficient process, you have to enrich it with the less <v Fritjof Capra>frequent isotope. <v Fritjof Capra>So you have to send it through a process of enrichment. <v Fritjof Capra>And this enrichment is not very difficult. <v Fritjof Capra>It's a chemical process which is not very difficult to do, but it uses up <v Fritjof Capra>energy. And what they do is they use coal. <v Fritjof Capra>Now, here comes the interesting thing. <v Fritjof Capra>If you use this coal to boil the water directly, you would just about <v Fritjof Capra>have the same effect. Now, this is a shocking statement, and it's a little eccentric. <v Fritjof Capra>I've exaggerated a little. And I must say, I don't know the exact figures, but I'll have <v Fritjof Capra>them in my book and I'll do some more research.

<v Fritjof Capra>It's maybe something around 60 percent, maybe, maybe more, maybe less. <v Fritjof Capra>But it's significant. That's what I want to point out. <v Fritjof Capra>A significant amount of energy goes into the enrichment process <v Fritjof Capra>to create the material that is then used to heat the water. <v Fritjof Capra>And if you did the water directly, that know would be much more useful. <v Fritjof Capra>Now the other - Now, the point is, you say that this enrichment process <v Fritjof Capra>is not taken into account when they make feasibility studies <v Fritjof Capra>of reactors. They will do the utility companies would make <v Fritjof Capra>a study and say, you know, the reactor costs as such and such, and then the <v Fritjof Capra>electricity would cost that and that. And and so, you know, it's very economical and so <v Fritjof Capra>the power is economical. <v Fritjof Capra>Now they don't take into account these hidden costs. <v Fritjof Capra>They just sweep them into the rug. Now there's another one, another cost, which is even <v Fritjof Capra>more outrageous. That's the cost of what is called decommissioning a reactor. <v Fritjof Capra>You see, a reactor has a useful lifetime of maybe 30 to 40 years. <v Fritjof Capra>After that, you can't use it any longer and you have to dismantle

<v Fritjof Capra>it. Now, the whole thing is is heavily contaminated by radioactive material. <v Fritjof Capra>And so far they have not found <v Fritjof Capra>a really effective way of dismantling a reactor. <v Fritjof Capra>This is called decommissioning a reactor. <v Fritjof Capra>Now, it to me, it is it is shocking and outrageous that we have, you know, so and so many <v Fritjof Capra>reactors in process. <v Fritjof Capra>And in 30 years, we'll have to do something with them and we don't know yet what. <v Fritjof Capra>[laughter]. The only thing we know is that it will be very expensive to do that too, see. <v Fritjof Capra>[laughter, Michael Toms: Yeah] This is - it - it's like a huge chain letter, but it's a <v Fritjof Capra>radioactive chain letter. <v Fritjof Capra>So they have actually dismantled decommissioned reactors, small ones. <v Fritjof Capra>They have done - they have done this with a small reactor in France. <v Fritjof Capra>And they found out that it cost them as much to dismantle it as it cost them to build <v Fritjof Capra>it. That, again, that cost of decommissioning is not taking into account, you see. <v Fritjof Capra>So, so we are - we are really not informed <v Fritjof Capra>about the actual economics. Now, this is now coming out.

<v Fritjof Capra>It is now seeping through and becoming wider known. <v Fritjof Capra>And that has an impact on the construction of nuclear power plants. <v Fritjof Capra>And my economist friends tell me that nuclear power is practically <v Fritjof Capra>dead as far as economics is concerned. <v Fritjof Capra>They're slowing down construction processes in Germany and in the United States. <v Fritjof Capra>In the country, I come from, Austria, there was a referendum <v Fritjof Capra>where the people voted against nuclear power. <v Fritjof Capra>That was interesting because let me just spend two minutes on telling you what happened. <v Fritjof Capra>They had a nuclear power plant all ready to go. <v Fritjof Capra>And the the prime minister or chancellor <v Fritjof Capra>in Austria wasn't sure about the consequences. <v Fritjof Capra>And he thought he didn't want to be responsible in the future. <v Fritjof Capra>So he wanted to put it to the people. He was sure the people would say yes, but just to <v Fritjof Capra>be sure, he wanted to put it to the people. <v Fritjof Capra>And the people said no. In spite of very heavy propaganda by Austrian universities <v Fritjof Capra>and the technology establishment for using this reactor, <v Fritjof Capra>it was defeated by very slight majority, but it was defeated.

<v Fritjof Capra>And so this tendency is now being seen all over the place <v Fritjof Capra>that economically they are just not feasible and <v Fritjof Capra>insurance companies are not going to deal with - with nuclear power any longer. <v Fritjof Capra>Or are not going to because it's just too risky. <v Fritjof Capra>Now, that's one whole area, the economic area. <v Fritjof Capra>Uh, uh, one of the main arguments against nuclear power would be, however, <v Fritjof Capra>a more fundamental argument. It would be philosophical, cultural. <v Fritjof Capra>You can call it a technological argument, but it's much deeper. <v Fritjof Capra>It's the fact that you have nuclear waste. <v Fritjof Capra>And again, so far we don't know what to do with it. <v Fritjof Capra>Just like the decommissioning. There's no really safe way, yet, to store nuclear waste in <v Fritjof Capra>spite of what you read in the propaganda. <v Fritjof Capra>There just isn't. Now, what you have then is this nuclear <v Fritjof Capra>waste sitting around, even if you can store it. <v Fritjof Capra>Now, suppose we could store it well, which we can't at the moment. <v Fritjof Capra>But suppose we solve this in five years or something like that.

<v Fritjof Capra>And then we can we store it and you have this thing sitting around in your concrete silos <v Fritjof Capra>or whatever. <v Fritjof Capra>Now the nuclear waste remains active for something like <v Fritjof Capra>250,000 years. <v Fritjof Capra>Now just, you know, sit back a moment and try to get this into perspective and think what <v Fritjof Capra>happened 200,000 - 250,000 years ago. <v Fritjof Capra>No, you go back 2,000 years, you know, to the birth of Christ and you go back <v Fritjof Capra>5000 B.C., you know, to the Vedas and you go back 15,000 <v Fritjof Capra>B.C. you know what some people believe was Atlantis. <v Fritjof Capra>And you still have less than 20,000 years. <v Fritjof Capra>You know, you just have no idea if you know what - what thing - what things were <v Fritjof Capra>in in those days. Now, this is from 20,000, you know, multiplied <v Fritjof Capra>by 10. You have got 200,000 and then tried to go ahead into the future. <v Fritjof Capra>Now, what I'm saying is that we would commit ourselves and future <v Fritjof Capra>generations, you know, thousands of future generations to a certain kind of technology.

<v Fritjof Capra>And I come back to what Dierdre was saying before, that in 200,000 years <v Fritjof Capra>we might function like dolphins, for instance. <v Fritjof Capra>You know, we might, I don't know, fly through the air, communicate telepathically, not <v Fritjof Capra>use any hardware at all, and and have a totally different <v Fritjof Capra>civilization. However, we can't if we have that damn nuclear <v Fritjof Capra>waste sitting around because we're, you know, we're not going to change the laws of <v Fritjof Capra>physics and the laws of nature. <v Fritjof Capra>So - so we'll have a - this - this hard <v Fritjof Capra>technology. We'll have the police state, of course, because <v Fritjof Capra>we'll have to police this nuclear waste. <v Fritjof Capra>Otherwise, terrorists might use it. <v Michael Toms>Well, also, the nuclear plants have to be policed. <v Fritjof Capra>Right. Right. Everything. So it's a huge extrapolation of - of a present, um, society <v Fritjof Capra>and present technology, which is absolutely irresponsible. <v Fritjof Capra>I'm going to talk in my book - I'm going to talk about two key examples of these

<v Fritjof Capra>extrapolations, one being nuclear power and one being space colonies. <v Fritjof Capra>And it's interesting that one is an extrapolation in time. <v Fritjof Capra>The other one an extrapolation in space. <v Fritjof Capra>And both are based on Newtonian notions of space and time. <v Fritjof Capra>You see linear time and infinite three dimensional space. <v Fritjof Capra>In modern physics, we have recognized that space is not <v Fritjof Capra>infinite. And it's not just an empty container. <v Fritjof Capra>It has a certain structure which is enclosed, encloses on itself and <v Fritjof Capra>time flows in various patterns and not just linearly. <v Fritjof Capra>So there's a whole different thinking. It is - we live in a closed universe, even at the <v Fritjof Capra>largest scale. It seems that we live in a closed universe. <v Fritjof Capra>So the whole thinking is radically different. <v Michael Toms>You know, I'm thinking of, just as you mentioned, the space and time and the fact <v Michael Toms>that space and time to most of us are mental, mental constructs and <v Michael Toms>we construct what our spaces and we construct when our time is.

<v Michael Toms>And modern physics, and particularly Einstein has shown us that - that those are <v Michael Toms>mental constructs and they're relative - Right - to where we may be in space or time. <v Fritjof Capra>Right. And that's true with with all the concepts we have. <v Fritjof Capra>And that's that's the main lesson that we can learn from modern physics, that these <v Fritjof Capra>concepts are relative. <v Fritjof Capra>And linearity, you know, it's one thing that is really very <v Fritjof Capra>crucial, a crucial element in our present culture. <v Fritjof Capra>And I think that ecological thinking is very essentially non-linear <v Fritjof Capra>thinking. Now, what I mean by that is that when you think that something <v Fritjof Capra>is good, then more of it will be better and more will still be <v Fritjof Capra>better and more will still be better. That's linear thinking. <v Fritjof Capra>Ecological thinking is something maybe good more if it may be better, <v Fritjof Capra>but then it may get worse again. So what you need is a balance. <v Fritjof Capra>If you have that, whatever it is, if you have it in <v Fritjof Capra>a certain limit, you know between limits and if you maybe fluctuate

<v Fritjof Capra>between this limits, that - that'll will be a healthy way of doing things. <v Fritjof Capra>And that's very much the Chinese view of the yin and the yang fluctuating and continually <v Fritjof Capra>changing into one another. So the Chinese always say that if you go in one <v Fritjof Capra>direction very far, you'll come back in there from the other side if you - if you <v Fritjof Capra>want to be, you know, very good then turns out to be bad. <v Fritjof Capra>If you want to be a very rich, you turn out to be poor and so on. <v Fritjof Capra>So this -this Chinese wisdom. <v Fritjof Capra>And I think it's very general wisdom of traditional <v Fritjof Capra>non-literate culture - cultures. <v Fritjof Capra>You can call this ecological wisdom or systemic wisdom. <v Fritjof Capra>I think wisdom you can just say that wisdom as such is <v Fritjof Capra>closely related to seeing things in context, seeing <v Fritjof Capra>how - the whole system you're living - it <v Fritjof Capra>has feedback loops and and it's non-linear so that when you do something, <v Fritjof Capra>it will come back to yourself.

<v Fritjof Capra>Now, of course, traditional non-literate cultures don't talk in those terms. <v Fritjof Capra>They don't use these scientific terms. Well, what do they use? <v Fritjof Capra>They use karma, for instance. Karma is to me, just a recognition of <v Fritjof Capra>the non-linearity of - of the ecosystem. <v Fritjof Capra>I've also learned this from Hazel Henderson also. <v Fritjof Capra>We had a discussion about it where she mentioned that - that - that's essentially what <v Fritjof Capra>karma is. So for every act that we take there's going to be an effect. <v Fritjof Capra>Yes. Yeah. You feed something into the system and it'll come back through loops and <v Fritjof Capra>it may come back, you know, long in the future. <v Fritjof Capra>Not not right away. <v Fritjof Capra>Yeah. <v Michael Toms>But sometimes it seems that so many of the decisions we make, not <v Michael Toms>only in our personal lives, but in our institutional lives are are based - <v Michael Toms>again going back to your concept of linearity - are based so much on the expediency of <v Michael Toms>the moment that this is what we need now and no one thinks about 10 <v Michael Toms>years now or much less 250,000 years. <v Fritjof Capra>Right. And also, it's not only in time, in space is <v Fritjof Capra>the same. You know, much of our business

<v Fritjof Capra>and economy is very much based on exploitation of other countries of of third world <v Fritjof Capra>countries. And we may have more or less enlightened legislation <v Fritjof Capra>to ban various unhealthy things. <v Fritjof Capra>But the companies that produce these things then export them into the third world and <v Fritjof Capra>advertise them in cultures that are not used to this very subtle <v Fritjof Capra>psychological advertising. <v Fritjof Capra>You may remember this, this case of- of milk, baby milk advertised in <v Fritjof Capra>somewhere in Africa, I think, or somewhere which -which just wrecked havoc. <v Michael Toms>So we need to become more aware and pay more attention to the actions that we're taking <v Michael Toms>and definitely recognize that there is that effect. <v Michael Toms>Fritjoff, in these closing moments, we have about 10 minutes or so. <v Michael Toms>I'd like you to talk about what you feel each of us as individuals <v Michael Toms>can do. I mean, you've mentioned some things over the course of our discussion here <v Michael Toms>that, you know, you might drive a more economical car.

<v Michael Toms>You might not even drive. You could walk. Yes. <v Michael Toms>What are some of the other things that people can do to participate <v Michael Toms>in what you're calling the rising culture? <v Fritjof Capra>Well, I would think this change of values towards voluntary <v Fritjof Capra>simplicity, ecological thinking, ecological <v Fritjof Capra>awareness, foster ecological awareness that I think is the most important <v Fritjof Capra>thing. And from that derive their various actions. <v Fritjof Capra>I would say also that the recognition of currently <v Fritjof Capra>existing cultural movements and bringing those together, <v Fritjof Capra>that I would think something of- something being very important <v Fritjof Capra>that you recognize that consumer movements, for instance, <v Fritjof Capra>really go in the same direction as the human potential movement, <v Fritjof Capra>as the ecology movement and- and so on. <v Fritjof Capra>And these movements are still largely separate.

<v Fritjof Capra>For example. <v Fritjof Capra>Well, there's little feminist awareness in spiritual groups. <v Fritjof Capra>I have mentioned that before. <v Fritjof Capra>There's also a little ecological, economic ecological awareness. <v Fritjof Capra>There is little awareness of that- little <v Fritjof Capra>social awareness in the human potential movement, for instance. <v Fritjof Capra>On the other hand, there is a little spiritual <v Fritjof Capra>awareness in the consumer movement and all the Ralph Nader type groups. <v Fritjof Capra>There has- there was not much spiritual awareness in the feminist <v Fritjof Capra>movement, I think, but there is now this is changing quite rapidly. <v Fritjof Capra>And the feminist movement to me is very fascinating because <v Fritjof Capra>it does branch out in these various directions. <v Fritjof Capra>It's becoming more and more spiritual and it is also becoming more <v Fritjof Capra>and more ecological. <v Fritjof Capra>I have you know, when I talked about economics and technology, I mentioned two of

<v Fritjof Capra>the leading personalities and both are women - Hazel Henderson and Helen Caldicott. <v Fritjof Capra>And there are several others. And it's not an accident that they are women. <v Fritjof Capra>I think the the link that Rozsak has made between the individual <v Fritjof Capra>and the planet, the meeting of ecology and human potential. <v Fritjof Capra>I think these these are very important trends. <v Fritjof Capra>And I think just fostering this awareness and expanding this awareness. <v Fritjof Capra>Another thing that I would mention is the awareness that <v Fritjof Capra>the educational institutions, the big educational institutions that we <v Fritjof Capra>have largely belong to the declining culture and will not <v Fritjof Capra>teach you the knowledge that is really useful. <v Fritjof Capra>Well, some, you know, some people in these institutions will, but as you go up in the <v Fritjof Capra>hierarchy, the overall policy will not be to teach this knowledge. <v Fritjof Capra>This knowledge is interdisciplin - interdiscipli-, interdisciplinary <v Fritjof Capra>knowledge, multi-dimensional approaches, ecological

<v Fritjof Capra>awareness and awareness of how various sciences, how various fields hang together. <v Fritjof Capra>That is not taught. <v Fritjof Capra>This is taught in various alternative <v Fritjof Capra>institutions of education, beginning with here in California, with the University <v Fritjof Capra>Extension's. And then you have various meetings, conferences, <v Fritjof Capra>you have informal networks, newsletters, all kinds of institutions. <v Fritjof Capra>And you know, you are ?inaudible? of course, you know, an important part of this, you <v Fritjof Capra>know, New Dimensions organization. <v Fritjof Capra>I think an awareness that this is where the real education comes from. <v Fritjof Capra>The really useful knowledge will be learned through these channels. <v Fritjof Capra>And eventually the universities will have to adapt and recognize that. <v Michael Toms>It's interesting because I was just talking about synchronicity. <v Michael Toms>And you did -we didn't have a conversation about this before this one. <v Michael Toms>And just yesterday, I was meeting with the university about the possibility of providing <v Michael Toms>credit to people who listen to New Dimensions.

<v Michael Toms>And I was experiencing directly and experientially all of <v Michael Toms>the institutional drawbacks that you were just covering relative to <v Michael Toms>that, the absolute tight attitude and hold on- <v Michael Toms>attitude of wanting to- that this is the way it's done. <v Michael Toms>And it's like, how do we fit this- there's- there's almost no way to <v Michael Toms>fit a new model into the old model without destroying the new model. <v Michael Toms>It's kind of like that. There are too many avenues of opening. <v Michael Toms>It's Interesting. <v Fritjof Capra>Well, you see, these institutions are built according to classical <v Fritjof Capra>economic principles. In order to survive- This goes for any corporation <v Fritjof Capra>and including the university - any company, including the university. <v Fritjof Capra>In order to survive, they want to concentrate on <v Fritjof Capra>information which is useful for their own growth and development, and <v Fritjof Capra>they systematically screen out other- all other information so that

<v Fritjof Capra>this information is there at the bottom level of the institution. <v Fritjof Capra>But as you go up in the hierarchy, it becomes screened out. <v Fritjof Capra>So once you are the president, you don't get any useful information whatsoever. <v Fritjof Capra>So it's all tailored towards the narrow aim of growth <v Fritjof Capra>and differentiated growth off of that particular company and the university, <v Fritjof Capra>although growth of the university is not the principal aim <v Fritjof Capra>or should not be. It's nevertheless structured according to the same principles and <v Fritjof Capra>therefore they- they are not happy with interdisciplinary departments and causes of <v Fritjof Capra>New Dimensions, things like that. <v Fritjof Capra>It's interesting. <v Michael Toms>Fritjoff, perhaps just one final question and just let me ask you <v Michael Toms>this, if there was one thing that you could suggest to people <v Michael Toms>as some way that they can bring more balance into their own lives. <v Michael Toms>What would it be? <v Fritjof Capra>I would not suggest any one thing because I think it's essential <v Fritjof Capra>not to concentrate on any one thing.

<v Fritjof Capra>It's pretty much like, you know, energy, the energy crisis. <v Fritjof Capra>It's I think what we should develop is a sense of the <v Fritjof Capra>multi-dimensional character, of the complexity, of the richness of <v Fritjof Capra>of the fabric of life and of the fabric of social and ecological <v Fritjof Capra>and individual reality. <v Fritjof Capra>And I don't think we should just suggest any one thing. <v Michael Toms>It's like Bucky Fuller says, we need more comprehensivists and fewer specialists. <v Michael Toms>Fritjoff, its been great talking with you. <v Fritjof Capra>It was a pleasure to come back. Thank you very much. <v Michael Toms>And I would strongly recommend to those of you who would not only like to deepen your <v Michael Toms>understanding of physics, but to deepen your understanding of yourself. <v Michael Toms>The book called The Tao of Physics. And I'm really looking forward to your new book, <v Michael Toms>Fritjoff. <v Fritjof Capra>Thank you. <v Dierdre Wu>It was a pleasure. <v Michael Toms>This is Michael Toms. <v Dierdre Wu>I'm Dierdre Wu. <v Michael Toms>On behalf the entire New Dimensions Radio Family, wishing you well. <v Michael Toms>[Music] <v Speaker>[Song: Equinoxe Part 2 by Jean Michel Jarre]

<v Speaker>[Song: Equinoxe Part 2 by Jean Michel Jarre]