How Do You Like the World; Part 2

<v Announcer>A welfare mother does not have any choice about working. <v Announcer>Once her youngest child is six years old. <v Katherine Gruber>Hello, my name's Katherine Gruber and I'm a counselor with the WIN program. <v Katherine Gruber>I want to welcome me to the orientation today. <v Katherine Gruber>Basically, the WIN program is for people who are on welfare. <v Katherine Gruber>It's for people who are on aid to families with dependent children. <v Katherine Gruber>And the purpose of it is to find you a job. <v Katherine Gruber>Now, there are different classifications. <v Katherine Gruber>We have people who are called mandatory WIN registrants. <v Katherine Gruber>Those are people who don't have any small children at home. <v Katherine Gruber>They're obliged to work. The government says that you have to get a job. <v Katherine Gruber>Your counselor is going to set up appointments for you. <v Katherine Gruber>We expect you to come to those otherwise. <v Janice>If I don't, then they call my welfare worker <v Janice>down at the welfare office and they tell her I'm not, <v Janice>you know, doing what I should be doing.

<v Janice>And then she sends me a letter, you know, and you have to go to this hearing <v Janice>to determine why you're not doing this and why you're not doing that. <v Janice>And then if they go against you at the hearing, then you're automatically <v Janice>shut off of welfare. <v Susan Lyle Kinney>Completely. <v Janice>Well, I don't think they can do it completely, but they can cut me <v Janice>off. But I don't think they can cut my children off. <v Katherine Gruber>If you missed two appointments in a row without contacting us, <v Katherine Gruber>then we get concerned and may start some action that would jeopardize your welfare <v Katherine Gruber>check, because we do expect you to to keep in touch with us. <v Katherine Gruber>Things like that. Another thing is, once you get a job, we're <v Katherine Gruber>still going to be involved. We're still gonna be your WIN counselors. <v Katherine Gruber>Now if you should be having any problems on the job. <v Katherine Gruber>We'd like you to contact us and perhaps we can straighten them out. <v Katherine Gruber>One thing that you're not supposed to do is quit the job without contacting us. <v Janice>Because if I stay home and watch my children, then I

<v Janice>don't get welfare anymore. <v Janice>And that's just what it boils down to. <v Janice>You know? And I can not work if my children aren't taken <v Janice>care of. Because if my children weren't <v Janice>taken care of, then I would have, you know, the welfare down on <v Janice>me again saying, hey, you're leaving your kids at home, lady. <v Janice>We're gonna take your kids away from you. <v Janice>See see, you know, it's a losing battle. <v Katherine Gruber>But like, sometimes we have people who have wh- well <v Katherine Gruber>really unrealistic expectations. <v Katherine Gruber>They may not want to go out on any jobs unless they pay five or six dollars an hour. <v Katherine Gruber>And, you know, that's just entirely not feasible. <v Katherine Gruber>Say they've never worked or anything like that. <v Katherine Gruber>So you WIN councelor may put some demands on you like. <v Katherine Gruber>These are the types of jobs we're going to be looking for that seem to suit you. <v Katherine Gruber>And these are what they want you to go out and find.

<v Kathy>At one time, I went to the window. <v Kathy>I said, well, I'll go to WIN. <v Kathy>You know, they're gonna really help me get training for a job. <v Kathy>Give me a good job. <v Katherine Gruber>Some of your questions might be about training. <v Katherine Gruber>Now, right now, with the WIN program, we have very little funds <v Katherine Gruber>for schooling. <v Kathy>And you go to orientation, then you get to really, really talk to you about applying <v Kathy>for jobs in jobs. <v Kathy>We're training on the job training and everything. <v Kathy>And then they set you up in this little machine and you start looking through this thing <v Kathy>for jobs. <v Katherine Gruber>Another thing that we have is what we call on the job training contracts. <v Katherine Gruber>That's where you or we will find an employer who <v Katherine Gruber>wants to train you. You'll be getting full salary along with all the other employees. <v Katherine Gruber>The thing is, we will be reimbursing him for a percentage of that until you're trained. <v Katherine Gruber>In exchange for him having the patience to to train you. <v Katherine Gruber>Now, that, too, is available at times.

<v Katherine Gruber>Right now, we're getting toward the end of the fiscal year and there isn't <v Katherine Gruber>very much available there. <v Kathy>Now, the only problem is if you don't have any training <v Kathy>and you don't have any experience, there's not too many jobs that pay very <v Kathy>well that you can find. <v Susan Lyle Kinney>Well, now, wait. I mean, are there any jobs that don't pay very well that you can find? <v Kathy>Yeah, but not too many of those either. <v Susan Lyle Kinney>All right. <v Kathy>You know, because the job situation is tight. <v Katherine Gruber>Dotty Dykeman is going to be in in a few minutes. <v Katherine Gruber>She's going to give the presentation on what the social worker does <v Katherine Gruber>and what you can expect from from him or her. <v Dotty Dykeman>Hi, my name is Dotty Dykeman and I'm with the Welfare Department. <v Dotty Dykeman>I'm going to tell you about the Denver Department of Social Services' <v Dotty Dykeman>role in the WIN program. Now that you've heard all about employment services part, <v Dotty Dykeman>everyone in here is on a public assistance grant of some type. <v Dotty Dykeman>The one thing that is affected when you go to WIN, probably

<v Dotty Dykeman>the one Klinker in the Hole WIN program is the loss of Medicaid because <v Dotty Dykeman>it is a big loss and there's just no way to get around that. <v Dotty Dykeman>When you finally do go off of your public assistance grant, you <v Dotty Dykeman>will lose your Medicaid. <v Rodney Stanton>?unintelligible? <v Kathy>They make it so hard for me. Like if I did a regular job and I want to work instead <v Kathy>of letting me keep my welfare benefits for a couple of months enough to get me <v Kathy>really going on my feet so I could just completely get off of welfare, <v Kathy>you know, instead, as soon as you get to work, get a job, <v Kathy>they cut your welfare check immediately if you're taking everything you're working with <v Kathy>and using it just to put food in your house and pay the rent and, you <v Kathy>know, pay the utility bills. <v Kathy>Then it's the same, you know, plus you don't have the benefits, like you don't get food <v Kathy>stamps, so you don't have Medicaid. <v Kathy>So therefore, you've got to pay for your food and you've got to pay for your doctor.

<v Dotty Dykeman>For every parent, a single parent who is on the WIN program, we provide <v Dotty Dykeman>child care money. What we do is give you a list of people who are licensed day-care <v Dotty Dykeman>people in your area of town so that you can contact the people <v Dotty Dykeman>on the list and decide who you want to babysit for you. <v Janice>All right. I've called maybe 90 of those 100 names out <v Janice>of there. OK. Not one of them will take four children. <v Janice>Now, I'm responsible to get my children there <v Janice>and pick them up, but how am I going to get my children there, <v Janice>get 'em, to school to get them home from school to the babysitter <v Janice>and still work? <v Dotty Dykeman>OK, I'm through talking. Does anybody have a question before we go? <v Dotty Dykeman>OK. I wish all of you good luck with WIN. <v Paul Lundberg>Again, we just we need to stay in regular contact and we need to know that you're making <v Paul Lundberg>some kind of sincere effort towards finding work. <v Paul Lundberg>I think that's the essence of WIN. If you're having some problems, which we should be

<v Paul Lundberg>aware of, you know, let us know. <v Paul Lundberg>Let me know. Let Perry know so we can work around, you know, if we hear nothing from you. <v Paul Lundberg>Then we have to assume that, you know, you're not cooperating with WIN and that you don't <v Paul Lundberg>intend to. <v Paul Lundberg>In general, people are here because they don't have any real job <v Paul Lundberg>skills, any marketable job skills. <v Paul Lundberg>They can't go out and find the kind of job to take care of themselves and earn enough <v Paul Lundberg>money to do so. Irene, for instance, youngest child, is now <v Paul Lundberg>six years old and she's had roughly eight months of work experience. <v Susan Lyle Kinney>In her life? <v Paul Lundberg>She's 30 years old. <v Paul Lundberg>In many ways, you know, she's essentially a new a new person to the new entrant into <v Paul Lundberg>today's labor market. <v Susan Lyle Kinney>So what can she make minimum wage more? <v Paul Lundberg>Well, probably to start, you know, 2.65. <v Susan Lyle Kinney>Still under the poverty line for a family of four. <v Paul Lundberg>Yeah, I mean, in Iren'es case a family of five. Yeah. <v Susan Lyle Kinney>Do many people on welfare who come in here to register with you have a lot of other <v Susan Lyle Kinney>problems in their life that might prevent their working.

<v Paul Lundberg>Sure. <v Susan Lyle Kinney>What sorts of things do you see? <v Paul Lundberg>Oh. Like in Irene's case, everything from housing, child care, maybe medical problems, <v Paul Lundberg>problems with the police problems with schools problems run <v Paul Lundberg>the full gamut. That uh, we have to take into account. <v Irene>They have really been considerate you know, they know that I'm nervous and the <v Irene>problems I'm going through and they've been real patient with me. <v Irene>It's just that I can't I can't handle <v Irene>it. <v Susan Lyle Kinney>Can't handle what? <v Irene>I can't handle going through the WIN and I can't handle- right now I'm waiting for some <v Irene>checks. I went to court and they were supposed to give me two or three back pay-checks <v Irene>from the welfare and I won it. <v Irene>You know, I went to court and they said that I would be getting it and I still haven't <v Irene>received those checks. Now I'm going to have to go to court again. <v Irene>And, you know, I'm just tired of it, already. <v Susan Lyle Kinney>What did you do the whole time you were getting no welfare checks? <v Susan Lyle Kinney>How do you eat? <v Irene>Oh, I was getting emergency food stamps. <v Susan Lyle Kinney>How'd you pay the rent? <v Irene>I didn't. I was. I was going to court then too every month.

<v Irene>I had an eviction notice on my door. <v Susan Lyle Kinney>Did they ever evict you? <v Irene>Well, no, they didn't while I went to court two or three times for eviction notice, <v Irene>but they never did evict me. <v Susan Lyle Kinney>Living on welfare then is not a real secure life, is it? <v Irene>No, it isn't. I can't handle it. <v Susan Lyle Kinney>What are you going to do about it? <v Irene>I don't know. I- I would like to work, but I want to do it on my <v Irene>own. I don't want I don't want to hastle with the welfare anymore. So. <v Irene>Well, I've gone through too many changes and <v Irene>then having to be here, you know, with my kids and everything. <v Irene>It's it's hard on me. It's hard on them. <v Irene>I've already had to go down to the schools. <v Irene>Who haven't even been on for a week, two weeks, I have to go down and talk to the teacher <v Irene>with my son about my son. <v Susan Lyle Kinney>What's the problem with your son? <v Irene>He just I don't know. I guess he doesn't have any faith in adults. <v Irene>He just doesn't believe them or something. He's always trying them. <v Susan Lyle Kinney>Well, how do you get out of these problems? You're too nervous to work, right.

<v Susan Lyle Kinney>And staying on welfare is one of the things that makes you so nervous. <v Susan Lyle Kinney>So what do you do? <v Irene>Nothing. I haven't done nothing. But like I said, I haven't been to the WIN, you know, so <v Irene>automatically I'll probably. Well, you know, they'll drop me off welfare. <v Irene>First thing I would like to do is move, find a job. <v Irene>And maybe then my kids would straighten up and I wouldn't have to worry about them so <v Irene>much then, but I don't know. <v Susan Lyle Kinney>Is that what you think will happen? <v Irene>I hope so. <v Susan Lyle Kinney>But what do you really think? <v Irene>I don't know. <v Irene>I don't know what to think anymore. <v Susan Lyle Kinney>Do you expect to get out of this? <v Irene>I'll try. <v Announcer>Most welfare mothers come to WIN because the law requires them to work with <v Announcer>WIN toward finding a job when their youngest child is six years old. <v Announcer>When is experimenting with the idea of persuading mothers with children younger than

<v Announcer>six to find work and get off the welfare rolls. <v Susan Lyle Kinney>Is the idea to save the government money? <v Susan Lyle Kinney>Welfare money? <v Delia Council>Hopefully we will be able to get women into occupations that pay enough <v Delia Council>to move them off of welfare. <v Delia Council>Oh yes, the idea is to save the government money. <v Susan Lyle Kinney>What is the cost of daycare here? <v Delia Council>I don't know. <v Announcer>The cost of daycare varies from state to state. <v Announcer>But if a woman is earning minimum wage, which is probably the case with welfare mothers, <v Announcer>and if she has just two children. <v Announcer>The government could conceivably pay more for daycare for her children than she could <v Announcer>earn. So the government would not say welfare money. <v Announcer>It would just pay someone other than the child's mother to care for it. <v Susan Lyle Kinney>Who decides if the kid is better off with his mother out working? <v Delia Council>The mother decides. <v Susan Lyle Kinney>OK, and this program is an effort to persuade her to do just that, <v Susan Lyle Kinney>right?

<v Delia Council>This program will have um- this program <v Delia Council>will expose her to what what her choices are. <v Susan Lyle Kinney>But you said it to try and get her to do that. <v Delia Council>To try and get her to to- <v Susan Lyle Kinney>To become employed before she's required to. <v Delia Council>Right one of the things that this program will be doing will be changing the orientation <v Delia Council>that that is currently offered at the local <v Delia Council>WIN office. One of the sessions will be geared towards the children and we'll <v Delia Council>speak about mothers going to work what that will mean for you it will mean that your <v Delia Council>mother is separated from you, but she'll be at work every day, <v Delia Council>though the local WIN team here is very much in the process of designing that film <v Delia Council>to try to remove the shock <v Delia Council>from the child. If the mother is out there and she's going to be out there every day. <v Susan Lyle Kinney>To try to convince the child that it's good for the child. <v Delia Council>To try and remove the shock from from the child, that the mother will be out of

<v Delia Council>the home so much. <v Susan Lyle Kinney>What do you mean remove the shock? <v Delia Council>If if the mother goes to work and she has been a mother that has been at home <v Delia Council>with her children all the time. <v Delia Council>It's a crisis for a child. And her mother leaves the home and goes to work. <v Delia Council>It's a role change for the mother. It's a role change for the child. <v Delia Council>And in order to try and <v Delia Council>and reduce reduce the trauma, if you will, <v Delia Council>that can can occur from a from a mother leaving <v Delia Council>the home. <v Susan Lyle Kinney>Why create the trauma in the first place? <v Delia Council>Because- once <v Delia Council>again, here we're talking about moving people off of the welfare rolls, <v Delia Council>moving them into employment, making them self-sufficient.

<v Delia Council>That that's why. <v Kathy>Everybody hollers about people on welfare they just sit back, they're lazy, <v Kathy>they're no good. They don't want to work, you know. <v Kathy>All they want to do is sit at home and have babies. <v Kathy>You know, myself, I have one child. <v Kathy>I was 21 when I had it. <v Kathy>I've lived totally on welfare for maybe <v Kathy>two and a half years of the time I've had it. <v Kathy>If I had my choice, I'd rather work. <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>The economists, they're right. They say people <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>are not working because there's more welfare going into the <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>ghetto. It's not a nice thing to talk about, but it's true. <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>Sure, it's got to be true. <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>If the amount they get through welfare is high relative to what they can get legally <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>from earning, they're not going to work that much. <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>Why should they? So we have- now, you can do one of two things.

<v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>You say we should reduce the welfare. <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>But that's not the main thing to do and it won't help us in the long run. <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>The thing to do is raise how much they can get from work. <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>And that'll get them back to work mighty fast. <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>Mighty fast. <v Announcer>Very few families headed by a white man are poor. <v Announcer>But one in every three families headed by a woman is poor. <v Announcer>This woman raised eleven children with a little help from welfare after her <v Announcer>second husband died. <v Estelle>I made the effort to strive just a little bit harder because I had to survive. <v Estelle>It left me. <v Estelle>I didn't feel bad. <v Estelle>I felt that I had had someone to be depended upon and it was no longer there. <v Estelle>It had been taken away from me. And that's that's a minor thing that you have to work <v Estelle>with it. You can kind of get in a rut if you choose to. <v Estelle>And I knew my kids needed me. I knew they depended upon me. <v Estelle>And I knew my responsibility.

<v Susan Lyle Kinney>I still give me an idea, if you can, what the life of living on welfare, <v Susan Lyle Kinney>of being very poor is like. <v Estelle>One thing about me, I knew I wasn't gonna ever remain on welfare. <v Estelle>So I had a choice in my mind. <v Estelle>Either I accept what welfare was doing for me and my family until <v Estelle>I could do better. Then I would branch out. <v Estelle>The welfare can make you feel like some time that you are not important. <v Estelle>You just don't have enough money. It just won't go no- it. <v Estelle>Money is a funny thing. You got a little bit of money and you just can't stretch it <v Estelle>any further. It's a different kind of life. <v Estelle>Uh, you're treated a little bit different. Uh they- more or less some people think <v Estelle>because you're on welfare, you're lazy. <v Estelle>You don't want nothing no better in life. <v Estelle>And it's you don't want to be put in a bag like that. <v Estelle>Nobody should. <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>Once you become a single parent. <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>Particularly if you're female. <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>So it's a female, what we call a female headed family.

<v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>It's almost inevitable that you'll be poor for two reasons. <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>One is that women in our society were raised <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>not to expect to have to support a family so that they were not encouraged <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>to get education. Certainly not to get vocational education. <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>God forbid they should do that. <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>So as a consequence of that. Women don't earn as much in the market. <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>So that would make them poorer uh than say a male-headed household. <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>But the other thing is that when you only have one adult rather <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>than two adults in a family that makes a family of the same <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>size poor because you only have one adult who can <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>go out and earn rather than two adults who could go out and earn. <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>Is- the best statistics that I've seen show about only 20 percent <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>of women with children who were divorced or separated. <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>Only 20 percent of women in those categories get any child

<v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>support. <v Susan Lyle Kinney>So 80 percent of the women left with children have no child support. <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>You've got it. <v Susan Lyle Kinney>And that's why they're poor. <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>You've got a huge portion of female-headed families do <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>not work full time, full year, although quite a large <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>proportion do work part of the year in the market. <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>But they all did another kind of work, which is very important, and that is raising <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>children. <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>And the question is, how much do we want them to specialize in that kind <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>of work? <v Announcer>Astelle's youngest child was still a baby when she went to work 13 years ago at a <v Announcer>neighborhood health center as a nurse's aide. <v Announcer>Today, she is director of outpatient admissions. <v Estelle>That was kinda hard for me because I didn't know whether I should be at home permanent. <v Estelle>Just keep on working and try to do the best I could. <v Estelle>So I was torn between what I was doing was I really given enough time to <v Estelle>my family.

<v Susan Lyle Kinney>You said you had some really low times. <v Estelle>I was in a hospital stay in a hospital like six days, and I was really sick and I was <v Estelle>very low. And the reason I was low because I figured, where do I <v Estelle>go now? You know, I didn't have enough time on my job to keep <v Estelle>checks rolling in. So that meant I had to go back to to where I fell again, <v Estelle>OK? And that hurts because I'm <v Estelle>a bet, you know, because people look at you and they say, well, <v Estelle>can't you survive for another two months? <v Estelle>Didn't you save some money? <v Estelle>Well how can you save money if you don't have money? <v Estelle>The money that I was making, I think my gross income then was like four hundred dollars a <v Estelle>month. So four hundred dollars a month for eleven kids. <v Estelle>So what do you have? <v Susan Lyle Kinney>Why did you have so many children? I mean 11 is really a lot, don't you think. <v Estelle>Yes. <v Susan Lyle Kinney>Many people think one or two is enough. <v Estelle>It's not because I planned it that way. <v Estelle>Well, was it because you didn't plan? <v Estelle>Well, and there was a lot of things that I didn't know about.

<v Estelle>OK. By the time I found out about family planning and what you <v Estelle>do and all these nice things. <v Estelle>Well, I had five kids. <v Estelle>OK. So then I remarried again, <v Estelle>and he wanted family, so how do you deny? <v Estelle>You know, I felt that was a woman and I was a mother and I was a wife. <v Estelle>And he was a husband. So that's how I began to- to <v Estelle>have eleven kids, I don't regret having eleven kids. <v Estelle>It's it's been a problem in some areas. <v Estelle>I've enjoyed it, I've laughed at it, I've cried with it. <v Estelle>I've done a lot of things, but I've survived. <v Susan Lyle Kinney>Estelle, I want to know how you did it. I wanna know- you say you're over there working <v Susan Lyle Kinney>with people who are poor people and you were in that situation. <v Susan Lyle Kinney>I want to know how you got out.

<v Estelle>This program in a line of giving me a job to do what I really <v Estelle>want to do, which is to work with people to to help them. <v Estelle>I think this is the reason I escaped because it made me realize, hey, <v Estelle>everybody, somewhere some time needs to be understood. <v Estelle>Someone needs to care about 'em. And might be a lot of people that want to do things <v Estelle>but not know how to do it. <v Estelle>And I think that's what happened to me. <v Estelle>The doors was open for me. <v Estelle>I took the advantage and I used it and I used it wisely. <v Susan Lyle Kinney>Is that what it is in you that got you up off welfare <v Susan Lyle Kinney>is pride? <v Estelle>One thing my father mother taught me was self pride and self respect. <v Estelle>You know, if you don't think nothing of yourself, then nobody else will. <v Estelle>And I think that goes way back to my childhood. <v Estelle>We was very poor, but we was always taught that you are important. <v Estelle>You are somebody.. Always remember that.

<v Estelle>You are important. And I came up with that. <v Susan Lyle Kinney>You came up with it and you gave it to your children. <v Estelle>Right. I tried to. I really did. <v Estelle>I tried to. It's important. <v Estelle>It's important to like yourself. <v Estelle>It's important to understand you. <v Estelle>It's important to respect yourself. <v Estelle>And in that, you can easily give that to somebody else. <v Susan Lyle Kinney>Can ya? <v Estelle>Yes. If they'll accept it. <v Estelle>It's easier for you to talk to people because you're not you're not judging <v Estelle>you're not looking down at them. <v Estelle>You're not trying to criticize them. <v Estelle>You're trying to understand them. <v Estelle>So it's easy for you because you are trying to say, I don't want anyone to do <v Estelle>this to me, respect me for what I am. <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>Part of the problem is that the job isn't always <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>out there. And then you mentioned one other problem, <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>and this is very important and touches on the issue. <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>It's very sensitive. Americans don't like to talk about it, but it's a real one.

<v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>That's inequality. That's not to say that phenomenally <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>talented blacks who come from the ghetto <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>can't escape. They can. But supposing they're just average. <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>Like most of us just average. <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>What's the chances they can get the average job that you and I get. <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>It isn't high. <v Susan Lyle Kinney>You mean because they're black? <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>That's right. Now, that's changing-. <v Susan Lyle Kinney>Or because they're a woman? <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>Or because they're a woman. That's right. Now, that's changing. <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>And we ought to be real proud that that's changing. <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>But it's not changing rapidly enough. <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>And many, many, many, many people at the bottom are equally able to <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>people at the very top female heads are an excellent example. <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>Excellent example. <v Susan Lyle Kinney>Well, then why are they poor? <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>You're an excellent example. Why are they poor? <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>They, uh, they made a wrong decision. <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>It's true. They they may have married a bummer. <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>Maybe they made a mistake in their marriage or maybe they had an illegitimate

<v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>child. So they made a mistake. They if you can if you want to get in biblical <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>terms, maybe they had a sin and sin in their life. <v Susan Lyle Kinney>And the child pays for that. <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>The child pays for it. Yes. <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>The. But there are no- you know, those of us- lots of us have <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>sinned and never got caught. <v Susan Lyle Kinney>You said a while ago we all have an interest in seeing that children do not live at too <v Susan Lyle Kinney>low a level. <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>Yes. If we allow children to grow up <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>in poverty with no and no hope of escaping it, <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>then we ask for trouble. We ask for crime. <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>We ask for alienation. <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>If this country is a democracy and democracy is one of the most wonderful inventions <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>that people in all of history <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>have. It's a terrific institution, but it's hard to keep. <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>You know, there aren't democracies in most of the world. <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>One of the things you have to do to keepat democracy is make sure that all the

<v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>people in that country have a stake in it. <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>You know, 50 percent of the American people regularly don't vote. <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>They don't vote because they think it doesn't matter to them. <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>They have no stake. That's dangerous. <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>That's very dangerous. If you believe in freedom, you want to make sure <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>that everybody has a stake. <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>And it's good for us not just because we believe in freedom and because that's going to <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>preserve our freedom, but because we like to walk down the streets and <v Dr. Irwin Garfinkle>be safe. <v Adult>Remember what I told you? If you don't mind me I'm not gonna do anything for you. <v Child>I mind you. <v Adult>No you're not. <v Child>Sometimes. <v Caption>[Caption: One in every six children is groWINg up in poverty in America.] <v Kathy>There's a lot more to life than just trying to figure out how you can afford the <v Kathy>necessities. <v Kathy>And someday I'm gonna make it. <v Nathan>People have to learn to be together.

<v Nathan>And then we all make it. <v David>I don't wanna, no, I just don't want my kids come up, and go through the, hell I went <v David>through. <v Janice>When you know, there's just you and six children, you do <v Janice>you'll do almost anything to make sure that those six children have a roof <v Janice>over their head and food in their stomach and clothes on their back. <v Irene>I don't know what to think anymore. <v Susan Lyle Kinney>Do you expect to get out of this? <v Irene>I'll try. <v Speaker 1>If America is so beautiful, let's change some of this stuff here. <v Estelle>Respect me for what I am. <v Adult>Goodnight.