New Dimensions; World Future Society; Part 2

<v Barbara Marx Hubbard>Has the opposite with it. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>The dist- It can't in the long run succeed. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>That means individuals who go in that direction or even whole societies who go in the <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>direction of self orientation eventually will fail. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>So I sense as going through a deep evolutionary selection process with <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>no guarantee that any individual or any culture will make it. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>Only the ones who get wholistic will. <v Michael Toms>So an integral part of self-transformation and planetary transformation <v Michael Toms>is getting in touch with with a balance and understanding that we're part of a larger <v Michael Toms>whole. And that means understanding that the rational is part of it, <v Michael Toms>and the intuitive is another part of it. <v Michael Toms>And we have to get in touch with that sense, that deeper sense of ourselves that allows <v Michael Toms>us just to be in the flow with what's going on. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>Yes. And if you talk about getting in touch with the deeper sense of yourself from an <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>evolutionary perspective, I sense that self's <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>roots at the origin of the universe. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>Because if you really take you and see how you got here,

<v Barbara Marx Hubbard>you have to take yourself back through that whole process to the big bang and even to the <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>creator before the big bang. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>Now, you start coming back up through that organizational process. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>The manifestation of God's works as it is now in our consciousness. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>That means there is a memory of that entire past <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>in our atoms, in our molecules, in ourselves, in our brain. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And I have come to believe there is a blueprint for growth <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>inherent in our consciousness. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>It is prefigured pre patterned, but not predetermined. <v Larry Guice>Or predestined, as you might- <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>Or predestined. But the tendency toward holism, for example, <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>is so traditional that we <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>would expect to be able to form a whole planetary system. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>Then another tendency is when that whole system is formed, the consciousness <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>of it increases. So I would expect greater consciousness.

<v Barbara Marx Hubbard>I have an intuition of greater consciousness. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>When that happens, you also get newness like a bird is really new <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>as compared to a rock. It really is different. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>So I expect real newness. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And in my evolutionary meditations now, I've discovered two aspects <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>at least. One is my contact with the eternal and that's getting <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>up there to what always has been is now and will be. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>But I'm finding myself getting in contact with the evolving aspect. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>But the minute the internal manifests in- in reality, <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>in physical reality, it is manifesting God's blueprint for growth. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And the meditative techniques for tuning into the blueprint for growth are much less <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>developed than the techniques for tuning into the eternal. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>But as society is being required literally to manage a planetary system, <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>the need to attune to the blueprint for growth is greater. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And, uh, there are some of us who are calling this whole field conscious evolution.

<v Barbara Marx Hubbard>How do you know what's right? <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>The rational mind cannot alone tell you. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>Although, you need it to help you. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>So we have to intuit growth. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>Now, the other terrestrial religions, it seems to me, took us all <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>up to this point and then gave us a hint of what's to come and left us on <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>our own. For example, no written text tells you what to do about space colonization. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>You can't read the Bible on bioengineering. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>It doesn't really say what to do about test tube babies or clones. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>Nor does it give you guidelines on artificial intelligence. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And yet, when you start looking at those new capacities, they <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>look like the technologies of transcendence to create a species that shall <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>not die, shall be sitting on the right hand of God, the father, in the sense <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>of participating consciously with creation. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And I think we're moving towards the co-creative relationship with God, <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>which means that our generation has a whole new set of attunement skills

<v Barbara Marx Hubbard>to learn on the inside and the inner dimension and a whole <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>new set of handling of our creative technologies on the external <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>dimension. And if we can phase in our attunement to that prefigured <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>blueprint for planetary growth with using our magnificent <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>skills for the growth of our planetary system <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>that we- even while we're still alive, we'll see the outlines of a universal humanity. <v Michael Toms>It's interesting because our tendency is always to look for the how to manual outside and <v Michael Toms>how to manuals really inside. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>It's inside. And we're born with it, but it has not had to be <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>consciously brought to our attention because we did not have this level of <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>responsibility. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>On a planetary scale. And it's really prag- pragmatic necessity that's requiring us <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>to go inside. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And as Bucky Fuller has said, Spaceship Earth came without an operating manual. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And the operating manual, for me- I'm speaking now personally.

<v Barbara Marx Hubbard>I got a clue to that cosmic birth experience. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>I intuited a planetary transformation toward universal life. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>Then I went back and I read for about 10 years to try to understand <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>cosmology, geology, biology, futures. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>I read religions, and I applied all that to that birth model. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And I found that my intellect and the intuition were wonderfully synergistic. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And I I really have learned to trust that intuition. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And then it gets deeper as your intellect learns more. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>So now I'm constantly asking not only what's he turtle, but what's the next <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>step? And I've gotten fascinated by the expectation of newness. <v Michael Toms>What's happened in your- in your interaction or contact, communication with-with <v Michael Toms>other persons, persons in positions of power, institutions, authorities, <v Michael Toms>that kind of thing? I mean, how do they relate to what you say it's like, uh, I'm just <v Michael Toms>thinking I have these images of, oh, here comes that Hubbard lady again, you know,

<v Michael Toms>[laughter] with her bright vision. <v Michael Toms>And it's all really- really terrible and it's very complex and it's not as simple as she <v Michael Toms>makes it out to be. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>Well, I certainly wouldn't wish to say that I'm in the class of Herman Kahn <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>being sought after by the large corporations and the Japanese <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>government. They say that. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>But some interesting things are happening. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>For example, there's something called the U.S. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>Civil Service Commissions, executive seminars in which they bring that top level <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>government officials from transportation, HUD, Defense, CIA, <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>EPA into two week seminars all year long on <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>future policymaking. And that's all the public policy administrators have to go <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>through this. And I am now making my ninth keynote address to this <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>group of our top government officials. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>I will have probably hit them all by the time the year's out. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And the man who organizes the conferences has told me he doesn't like to start any one of

<v Barbara Marx Hubbard>the seminars without me anymore, because I say to <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>these policymakers, you are in a terribly difficult <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>situation because your culture has no sense of its own futures or how can you be <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>making policy. Here is a vision that comes out of evolutionary thought <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>that might give us guidelines as to the natural next step, which <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>depends on policies and the kinds of capacities they're dealing with. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And I'll share this with you. And I go through all the new capacities in space, genetics, <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>consciousness and so forth. And so I think this is where we're going. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And I think that that's really the kinds of policies that need to be developed just to <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>get us there. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And there is a real note of realism. I can quote chapter and verse about new capacities <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>now, and I can say how many minerals there are on the moon. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And I can talk about, you know, the various generations of computers. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And I throw in a lot of figures from time to time. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>What happens is-. <v Michael Toms>It makes it OK. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>It's OK. <v Larry Guice>They like it.

<v Barbara Marx Hubbard>I can even do graphs [laughter]. <v Larry Guice>Yeah, right, she knows what she's talking about. [laughter] <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>About sigmoid curves. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>[laughter] I mean, I- I get really- pull them out, and I do. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And then what happened is really fascinating, the discussion. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>I thought the government bureaucrats would would be turned off by this, but not <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>at all. They know more than anybody else how- how difficult their position is. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And the idea that it might be meaningful, that society might, in fact, <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>have a chance to move towards a choice for open future if they make the right policies <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>instead of simply not killing itself. If they make the right policies, they start out <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>with questions on on spiritual, philosophical bases. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>What does this have to do with our religious vision? <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>Is this something that we are good enough? <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>Is man good enough to handle these powers? <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>We've always been selfish and destructive. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>What makes you think that we could use our power as well? <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And then I tell them the 15 billion years of holistic creation <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>and how could the force suddenly stop? And then they ponder that one, and they begin to

<v Barbara Marx Hubbard>sense that perhaps the force is with them. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And then- then I call it all heaven breaks loose <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>[laughter]. <v Larry Guice>That's great <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>Instead of all hell breaking loose. And people get very excited to think it might all be <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>meaningful. And evidently, after I leave every <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>other speaker who comes usually with some problem. I call problems evolutionary <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>drivers. And I point out that in every evolutionary quantum change, the <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>problems must get to a point of critical systems <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>stress before the new potentialities are released. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>So I say to them, every problem we've got is an evolutionary driver. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>Our energy crisis, population pollution, nuclear is <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>requiring us to innovate and transform at a more holistic level. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>It's genuinely dangerous, but genuinely stimulating and it's worked <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>before. So I guess the problems in a new light. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And then I also applied it to the personal life.

<v Barbara Marx Hubbard>We know personally that crisis precedes transformation. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And if you don't respond to the crisis, you can die. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>But if you do respond, you grow. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>So instead of putting the guilt trip on us for having grown so much, <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>I show it's natural. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>I believe it is natural. I think that, for example, the fact that we're using up the <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>fossil fuels is absolutely natural. Of course, we are. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>They're a finite source and we use them up and running out of them is going <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>to force us to go to the renewable resources and eventually it will nudge our little baby <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>species into the universe. Thank God for the energy crisis, say I. <v Speaker>[Song: Imagine by John Lennon] <v Michael Toms>[mumbling and laughter] We came back a little quickly

<v Michael Toms>there. We're talking with Barbara Marx Hubbard, woman futurist <v Michael Toms>and the author of a wonderful book called The Hunger of Eve: A Woman's Odyssey Towards <v Michael Toms>the Future and one of the founders of the World's Future Society and founder of the <v Michael Toms>Committee for the Future. <v Michael Toms>Barbara, there were- there was one thing that was current to me as we were talking <v Michael Toms>relative to your doing the executive seminars of the Civil Service Commission. <v Michael Toms>My experience of the of- particularly the federal government, it's always been of this <v Michael Toms>bureaucratic morass. And I kind of relate to it as a swamp. <v Michael Toms>And it's like you have to be really careful when you walk through the swamp not to <v Michael Toms>get mired in the in the muck, you know, and and I- I sense that you've <v Michael Toms>been able to do that fairly successfully to walk through this swampy morass and <v Michael Toms>kind of come out still with your feelings intact and your vision intact and- <v Michael Toms>and not get caught. How do you do that? <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>Well, for one thing, I don't stay there very long. [laughter]. <v Michael Toms>That helps. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>If you go- I live in Washington, D.C., and if I spend some time with my <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>friends who are in Congress, and I go into their offices and they close the door,

<v Barbara Marx Hubbard>I've had an experience of people actually breaking down and weeping and saying <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>that there is no way that they can meet their obligations to their <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>constituents in the structure that they are in. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>First of all, it's too complex. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>They have to vote on bills that they can't possibly understand. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>They have to meet demands of individual constituents. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>They have to run to the floor for votes. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And I tell them what you're in is a systems breakdown, which is necessary <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>for the systems breakthrough. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>So they will sometimes cancel all their appointments just to hear <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>that it might be that this stress is not a sense of failure, <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>but rather a prelude toward a necessary change. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And what seems to be happening now, very fascinating. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>It's going beyond networking. Lots of people feel this way. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>Is that We're getting ready to form new soft <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>structures, not institutions, but places

<v Barbara Marx Hubbard>where people who are in government, who are in business want and other <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>decision making positions can interact with people <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>who are deeply into transformation in order to go back and <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>be more transformative where they are. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And there is the sense that the system can evolve. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>Marilyn Ferguson calls it the Aquarian Conspiracy. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>As you know, she's writing a book on it, and she terms us, people like us, the radical <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>center. And we are both slightly outside of institutions and slightly <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>in them. And there is a need now to form soft <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>organizational meeting grounds where we can let this synergy <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>happen because it is so vital. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And I myself am in the process of forming about three or four new organizations. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And I'm- just in the last two weeks, and I'll just describe them to you, because it's <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>very interesting. The president of Antioch College asked

<v Barbara Marx Hubbard>me after just hearing the evolutionary perspective to develop a new <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>national curriculum for Antioch based on this perspective. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And he said, 'would you bring together a team and then see if you can do this?' So I <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>invited some of the most outstanding people I know, including Dr. Thomas Paine, who <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>was head of the Apollo program and a psychologist and an artist <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>and somebody in business. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And we we all met and we began to see the scope of teaching <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>15 billion years as a process, as a guideline to develop <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>the future with the personal growth component. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And suddenly we started looking at each other and we said, can this be done in an <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>existing institution with all its problems? <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And we began to say, maybe we need to create something new. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And we all got very excited that we were going to be into something, but we didn't want <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>to fall into the pit falls of institutions. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>So that was just hanging there. Maybe it'll be Antioch, maybe it will be outside Antioch <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>with participation from all universities to provide a new educational

<v Barbara Marx Hubbard>matrix. Then I was at doing one of my own weekend seminars which is <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>called Act 3. And there were some people there from large corporations, large <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>computer company, a large aerospace company, a large research company. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And these were younger men who are actually in the position of guiding a 2 billion <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>dollar company as to what to do with computers next. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And I had been giving the evolutionary perspective of the future. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And this young man said, 'I have got to be in some association with other <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>people who are thinking like this so that when it comes my turn to have an impact, I have <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>the right impact.' So there got formed right them on the spot, <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>something we're calling Emma, which is the Evolutionary Management Association. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And this is where people in large companies who are radical center people, <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>they don't- they don't look like hippies anymore. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>You can't tell them from a straight person. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>In fact, you know what? these uniforms -You don't have any uniforms. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>We all come in just looking neat and clean.

<v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And it's the most radical transforming thing there is, is to look neat and clean <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>[laughter] and actually changing thing. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>[laughter] So I got a call from this young man who has helped formed <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>Emma, [laughter] the Evolutionary Management Association. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>He said, 'I have just talked to the vice president for personnel of this $2 billion <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>company and to get all their training people together for a lunch with you so you can <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>tell them what to do.' I thought, oh, my God, that's going to be in March. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>I better find out because you see, all I have been sharing still is my overall <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>perspective. So now I, Barbara Hubbard, the Peter Pan <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>visionary, I'm suddenly saying I'm going to go to Harvard Business School and learn <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>business management. I am going to find out the most creative entrepreneurial geniuses <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>and figure out how they do things. I am going to really learn how the world works. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>I have a sense of what's going to happen next. But I better know what's happening now. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>So I'm deepening my pragmatism. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>I'm really doing that because the time is coming for this to be <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>effective. And I can't be Peter Pan anymore.

<v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And I'm finding myself deeply concerned with how you make budgets, how you cross things <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>out. I believe that only a real entrepreneurial system works. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>I don't believe in nonprofit, because I think you have to make more resources in <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>order to keep going. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>I forget what you asked me why I said all that, but - <v Larry Guice>He asked you about the swamp. [laughter] <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>Oh the swamp! The swamp is disintegrating. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>It's got a lot of free people whose sense of failure is sufficiently <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>deep to free them up to help create with those of us slightly <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>outside the institutions some new grounds. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And I think that their failure is now well enough recognized <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>to be a positive force, meaning that they will be free to innovate <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>because it isn't working. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And in evolutionary process, failure is vital. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And the recognition of failure is so essential to transformation. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And there are a lot of people now who have said, I cannot do it this way, but I don't

<v Barbara Marx Hubbard>want to give up. So we are innovating together. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>I have a house in Washington called Graystone. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>It's a wonderful old big mansion. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And I'm going to use it now for very consciously for bringing together <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>people who are in the- in the field of developing long range policy. <v Michael Toms>Sounds wonderful. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And I'm going to have, you know, before the French Revolution, before the American <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>Revolutio, uh, these deep level social exchanges <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>were very vital. And it's fun to get to- <v Larry Guice>[laughter] I get the image of a New Age Perle Mesta [laughter] <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>Right! [laughter] But what I've learned is there's another little thing about being a <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>woman. I've gone through a lot of learning in the last month of how <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>basically in my heart of hearts, I always thought a man would do it. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And even though I got out there and gave my lectures and inspired people, I wasn't really <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>thinking that I would have to be responsible for what I said. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And I was always looking for the men to do it. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And then I began to realize that I was responsible.

<v Barbara Marx Hubbard>I'm an equal. And that sounds obvious. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>But it wasn't - I was so culturally imprinted with my sense of dependency and the need <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>for protection, that I was always going up to these geniuses and say, maybe you'll catch <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>on and maybe you'll do it. And then gradually I began to see that actually I <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>had a vision which was more holistic than anybody else's. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>Or as holistic. And that I had to have enough self-worth and self-affirmation <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>to take responsibility for my own vision. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And so the difference between me and a Perle Mesta is I'm not just simply <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>bringing people together to see what they might come up with. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>But now we're into the question of leadership, which is very hard for me <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>and very hard for a lot of New Age people. What if you really have a leadership role? <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>I will admit to confronting the idea that I have a leadership role. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>How do- how does one lead without falling into all the old <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>pitfalls? How do you become an empowerment base rather than a power <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>base? I don't know the answer to that, but I've decided that

<v Barbara Marx Hubbard>I must become pragmatic. And I must learn. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And we must learn what it means to be a leader in a synergistic <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>way. And there are skills and there are people developing them. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And I think the next level of democracy and the next level of corporate development in <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>the next level of educational institutional dump is going to depend on this kind of <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>leadership. So I really do want to set up a training ground <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>for all of us to learn this. And I want to do it with anyone else who is already doing it <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>and that these kind of big, wonderful dockings of people, all of <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>whom have been working for 10 to 15 years. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And, um, so the swamp is <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>the seed bed of free persons who are now <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>wanting to get out of the swamp. So even the swamp is a good evolutionary driver. <v Michael Toms>I want us- you mentioned something there that you were against nonprofit. <v Michael Toms>And I wanted to go deeper with that, because money is definitely one of the

<v Michael Toms>issues that that a lot of people face in our society, in particular, a lot of people face <v Michael Toms>in what we're calling the new age or the transformation movement, the cultural <v Michael Toms>changes that are going on now. <v Michael Toms>And I just wanted to have you two. You came from a very wealthy family, and those <v Michael Toms>were your roots. Yeah. And they've gone through various changes in your life. <v Michael Toms>So how are you relating to money now? <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>Well, from my own point of view, at first I felt very guilty <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>about having a father who happened to have been a toy tycoon. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And I knew I didn't deserve to have money when other people were not having it. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>However, when I found that I had some purpose and function in life, <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>I began to think of the money that I had been I had inherited as fossil fuel money. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And symbolically speaking, the earth has inherited quite a lot of resources <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>from the energy of the past. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>Some of us have inherited money from the energy of individuals. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>So the first thing I did with money is say it's okay, I inherited it.

<v Barbara Marx Hubbard>Maybe there's even a choice involved in how you come into this world and into what <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>family. And if I do have a purpose, let me acknowledge that I have chosen this <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>situation in order for that money to become fruitful for something over and beyond <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>consuming. So I made it okay to have inherited money <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>and then I squandered it in doing good. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>I made a mess of it because it came to me too easily and I didn't know the value of it. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>So then I began to see the very fact that I could draw on it without being accountable, <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>very much like we did with fossil fuels, was wrong because anything I created <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>based on a non accountability of resources would fail because it be a little <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>hothouse flower. So I stopped spending that fossil fuel money. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>I also began to run out of it, just like the earth. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And I IBSA how do I actually do something that produces <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>resources so that this can go on for the world <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>and for myself as part of the world?

<v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And I became interested in the process of entrepreneurial creativity. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And then I looked at evolution and saw. What happens is that out of that big bang, <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>where you had just basic atoms of hydrogen and helium spread <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>out throughout the universe, that there was an organizational central BP that turned that <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>into the whole period of atomic materials and then turned it into life and then <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>turned it into the brain. So now here's the brain trying to take resources and turn into <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>even more useful energy. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And that's more resources than we started with through centropy, <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>through organization. So I equate entrepreneurship with <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>centropy, neg entropy, making greater order out of disorder. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>Evolution is a negentropic, cyntropic profit making <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>experience. So we need to learn to make <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>resources emerge out of what we do in order that we can do more of it for the good. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>And one of my decisions in learning- going to Harvard

<v Barbara Marx Hubbard>Business School for a crash course to learn the language of business is <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>then to meet up with the most creative business minds that I can find and learn from them <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>and also try to infuse them some degree with my purpose. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>But even if I can't, I might as well learn their skills. <v Michael Toms>Yes. That's good point. <v Michael Toms>I'm thinking of having spent many years of my own life in business and in <v Michael Toms>the commercial- commercial field. <v Michael Toms>So many business people that I came in touch with we're really not <v Michael Toms>in touch with any kind of a social responsibility at all, but very much in touch with <v Michael Toms>her own personal responsibility, very much in touch with getting as much as <v Michael Toms>they could get in the process. <v Michael Toms>And at the same time, I met some conscious business people, too. <v Michael Toms>There are conscious business people. <v Michael Toms>There are conscious business people who are making profits, who are directing those <v Michael Toms>profits to things that benefit lots of people.

<v Michael Toms>But that's the exception, not the rule. <v Michael Toms>And I'm wondering what kind of- of- of insights you may <v Michael Toms>have, you might have or what kind of directions you might have for, say, someone who's <v Michael Toms>in business now as to how to get more in touch with meeting that- that social <v Michael Toms>responsibility and that sense of being part of a larger whole and that it really isn't- <v Michael Toms>it doesn't work to just eat it all up for yourself because it's eventually going to come <v Michael Toms>back on you. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>Right. That's a very interesting and deep question in the most philosophical <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>answer to it. <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>By identifying the long range evolutionary trends <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>of growth, of planetary and universal growth, then <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>by backing up from that and seeing what your own company is <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>involved in producing and making a link between your productive capacities <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>and a natural inherent tendency of planetary, not just need but growth, <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>would be the sort of philosophical context for profit <v Barbara Marx Hubbard>making to both serve its own interests and serve the needs of the larger

<v Barbara Marx Hubbard>body. And this gets me into one of the more controversial thoughts that I have. <v Larry Guice>Before we get into that, I think we've got to do a station idea here. <v Larry Guice>So we should say this is-. Go ahead. <v Michael Toms>KQED F.M. in San Francisco and you're listening to New Dimensions. <v Michael Toms>Continue, Barbara