PBS NewsHour; September 18, 2014 3:00pm-4:00pm PDT

Captioning sponsored by MacNEIL/LEHRER PRODUCTIONS

>> Woodruff: POLICE BREAK UP PLOTS BY ALLEGED SUPPORTERS OF THE ISLAMIC STATE GROUP TO CARRY OUT BEHEADINGS IN AUSTRALIA. WE ALSO GET ANALYSIS ON HOW COUNTRIES IN THE MIDDLE EAST ARE CONFRONTING THE RADICALS IN SYRIA AND IRAQ. GOOD EVENING, I'M JUDY WOODRUFF.

>> Ifill: AND I'M GWEN IFILL. ALSO AHEAD THIS THURSDAY, HOW COMMUNITY POLICING CAN HELP REDUCE TENSIONS IN DIVIDED COMMUNITIES.

>> Woodruff: PLUS, IN UTAH, LOCAL RESIDENTS FIGHT FOR RECREATIONAL USE OF FEDERAL LAND IN A CANYON WHERE ARCHAELOGISTS ARE WORKING TO PRESERVE ANCIENT NATIVE AMERICAN DWELLINGS AND ARTIFACTS.

>> ARCHAEOLOGICAL SITES ARE LIKE BOOKS, AND THAT BOOK WILL TELL YOU A COMPLETE STORY ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO LIVE THERE, BUT ONCE YOU START DENIGRATING A SITE YOU ARE JUST RIPPING OUT PAGES OUT OF THAT BOOK

>> Woodruff: THOSE ARE JUST SOME OF THE STORIES WE'RE COVERING ON TONIGHT'S PBS NEWSHOUR.

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>> Ifill: THIS WAS REFERENDUM DAY IN SCOTLAND, ON WHETHER TO STAY PART OF THE UNITED KINGDOM. POLLS SUGGESTED A SLIGHT ADVANTAGE FOR THOSE VOTING "NO" TO INDEPENDENCE AND TO ENDING A UNION WITH ENGLAND THAT'S LASTED 307 YEARS. ALEX THOMSON OF INDEPENDENT TELEVISION NEWS FILED THIS REPORT, WHILE VOTING WAS STILL UNDER WAY. ♪ ♪

>> Reporter: WHAT A CAMPAIGN AND WHAT A POLL. TODAY, EVEN PIPES WEREN'T ENOUGH, THEY NEEDED FLAMES AT EDINBOROUGH, TO CAPTURE THE HISTORY OF THE DAY. OUT VOTING IN ABERDINE, ALEX SAMIN HAS TOLD THE NATION THERE WILL BE NO "YES" CAMP AND NO "NO" CAMP TOMORROW. ( CHEERS ) JUST A TEAM SCOTLAND, PULLING TOGETHER WHATEVER THE OUTCOME. ON THAT, BETTER TOGETHER NO CAMPAIGN LEADER ALLISTER DARLING WILL AGREE WITH HIS RIVAL. BUT THE QUESTION FOR BOTH MEN: WOULD THE TURNOUT FOLLOW THE EXTRAORDINARY PATTERN OF 97%. YES, 97%, VOTER REGISTRATION. BY MID-AFTERNOON, EDINBOROUGH COUNCIL SAID POSTAL RETURNS WERE AT 89.6%. YOU DON'T OFTEN SEE FIGURES LIKE THESE OUTSIDE ONE-PARTY DICTATORSHIPS AND THAT IS NOT LOST ON SCOTTISH VOTERS.

>> IT'S GOOD THAT THERE'S SO MANY PEOPLE TURNING OUT TO VOTE AS WELL. THAT'S THE BIG THING. YOU KNOW, WE'LL NEVER GET THIS AMOUNT OF VOTING IN THE NEXT ELECTION, WHICH IS UNFORTUNATE.

>> IT MIGHT NOT MASSIVELY AFFECT US OR OUR GENERATION, BUT IT'LL DEFINITELY HAVE A KNOCK ON EFFECT FOR THE KIDS, DEFINITELY. FOR THE IMAGE, THE VERY IDENTITY OF A COUNTRY IS AT STAKE. ITS RELATIONSHIP WITH ITS NEAR NEIGHBORS, THAT LAND TO THE SOUTH OF COLDSTREAM, THE SLANT OF HISTORY, AS WE PASS THROUGH DUNFERMLIN ABBEY TODAY, RESTING PLACE OF ROBERT THE BRUCE, THROUGH WHAT PERSPECTIVE WILL WE REVIEW SUCH PLACES TOMORROW. UP IN PERTH, THOUGH, IT WASN'T HISTORY OR POLITICS FOR THE LADIES CONCENTRATING ON THEIR MAGNIFICENT SCONES AT A CHURCH COME POLLING STATION WERE NOT HERE TO DISCUSS POLITICS, THEY TOLD ME. IT'S CLEAR, WHEN PEOPLE THINK THEY PERSONALLY CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE ABOUT SOMETHING THEY REALLY CARE ABOUT, THEY WILL COME OUT AND THEY WILL VOTE. BUT IS THAT JUST THE CASE IN THE BORDERS AND THE NOISY CENTRAL BELT OF SCOTLAND? WHAT HAPPENS WERE YOU TO TAKE THE TRAIN NORTH INTO THE HIGHLANDS AND ISLANDS? HERE, OF COURSE, VOTING HAS A RATHER DIFFERENT PACE AND TONE TO IT. FOR A START, SOME HAVE TO FIT THE BALLOT BOX IN AROUND THE NEEDS OF THE FLOCK. BUT THE IMPERATIVE TO VOTE THIS TIME, OF ALL TIMES, IS STILL THERE.

>> WELL I HAVE NOT VOTED FOR ABOUT 20 YEARS, SO THAT SHOWS YOU HOW IMPORTANT IT IS.

>> Reporter: SO, TOO, A DUTCH COUPLE IN KILLEN, WHO RUN A B&B.

>> VERY, VERY, VERY IMPORTANT, BECAUSE I LIVE HERE, I WORK HERE, I PAY MY TAXES, I LOVE THIS COUNTRY, AND I THINK I HAVE NEVER BEEN MORE CONVINCED ABOUT GOING TO A POLLING STATION THAN I'VE EVER BEEN BEFORE IN THE NETHERLANDS. THERE ARE NO EXIT POLLS. FIRST DECLARATIONS EXPECTED AFTER 2 A.M., BUT THE REALLY CLEAR PICTURE EMERGES, OBVIOUSLY, AFTER GLASGOW AND EDINBOROUGH DECLARE AROUND DAWN. IT'S BEEN A LONG CAMPAIGN, THERE'S A LONG NIGHT AHEAD.

>> Ifill: PRESIDENT OBAMA HAS SPOKE OUT IN FAVOR OF SCOTLAND REMAINING PART OF THE U.K.

>> Woodruff: THE ISLAMIC STATE GROUP TODAY RELEASED A PROPAGANDA VIDEO OF BRITISH HOSTAGE JOHN CANTLIE, A FREELANCE PHOTOJOURNALIST. THREE HOSTAGES HAVE BEEN BEHEADED ALREADY, AND CANTLIE CRITICIZED THE FAILURE TO WIN THEIR FREEDOM.

>> SEEING AS I'VE BEEN ABANDONED BY MY GOVERNMENT AND MY FATE NOW LIES IN THE HANDS OF THE ISLAMIC STATE, I HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE."

>> Woodruff: CANTLIE INDICATED HE'LL MAKE A SERIES OF STATEMENTS ON BEHALF OF THE MILITANTS.

>> Ifill: JOINT CHIEFS OF STAGFF CHAIRMAN GENERAL MARTIN DEMPSEY SAID TODAY IT MAY TAKE AS LONG AS A YEAR TO GET SYRIAN REBELS READY TO BATTLE ISLAMIC STATE FIGHTERS.

>> THIS EFFORT WILL NOT BE EASY. THIS EFFORT WILL NOT BE BRIEF. THIS EFFORT WILL NOT BE SIMPLE. WE'RE AT WAR WITH ISIL, JUST AS WE'RE AT WAR WITH AL QAEDA, BUT DESTROYING ISIL WILL REQUIRE MORE THAN MILITARY EFFORTS ALONE. IT WILL REQUIRE POLITICAL PROGRESS IN THE REGION AND EFFECTIVE PARTNERS ON THE GROUND IN IRAQ AND IN SYRIA.

>> Ifill: THAT ASSESSMENT CAME AS THE SENATE MOVED TO APPROVE $500 MILLION DOLLARS TO ARM AND TRAIN THE REBELS. THE HOUSE APPROVED IT YESTERDAY. AT A HOUSE HEARING, DEFENSE SECRETARY CHUCK HAGEL COUNSELED PATIENCE. SEPARATELY, FRENCH PRESIDENT FRANCOIS HOLLANDE SAID HIS COUNTRY WILL LAUNCH AIR STRIKES AGAINST ISLAMIC STATE MILITANTS IN IRAQ, BUT WILL NOT COMMIT GROUND TROOPS. FRANCE, HE SAID, WILL NOT JOIN ANY AIR MISSIONS IN SYRIA.

>> Woodruff: THERE'S WORD THAT A NEW THREAT HAS EMERGED FROM AL- QAIDA FIGHTERS IN SYRIA. THE DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE, JAMES CLAPPER, SAID TODAY THE KHORASAN GROUP IS HELPING PLOT ATTACKS ON AMERICAN AIRLINERS. HE SAID THE CELL IS WORKING WITH AL-QAEDA'S AFFILIATE IN YEMEN.

>> Ifill: THE U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL HAS DECLARED THE EBOLA OUTBREAK IN WEST AFRICA TO BE A THREAT TO INTERNATIONAL SECURITY. THE COUNCIL'S STATEMENT TODAY CAME AS ANOTHER U.N. BODY-- THE WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION-- REPORTED THE DEATH TOLL HAS RISEN ABOVE 2,600. MORE THAN 5,300 CASES HAVE NOW BEEN CONFIRMED. INCLUDING 700 IN THE LAST WEEK ALONE. MOST OF THE INFECTIONS ARE CONCENTRATED IN GUINEA, LIBERIA AND SIERRA LEONE.

>> Woodruff: IN NORTHERN CALIFORNIA, A WIND-DRIVEN WILDFIRE KEPT SPREADING AND THREATENING MORE THAN 2,000 HOMES. THE FIRE IS BURNING NEAR THE COMMUNITY OF POLLOCK PINES IN THE SIERRA NEVADA, SOME 60 MILES EAST OF SACRAMENTO. IT'S ALREADY SCORCHED 111 SQUARE MILES AND NEARLY TRIPLED IN SIZE SINCE YESTERDAY. AUTHORITIES HAVE NOW ARRESTED A MAN SUSPECTED OF STARTING THE FIRE SATURDAY.

>> Ifill: HOME DEPOT SAYS A DATA BREECH THIS SPRING AND SUMMER MAY HAVE AFFECTED 56 MILLION CREDIT CARDS. THE HOME IMPROVEMENT GIANT HAS NOW ELIMINATED THE MALWARE IN ITS NETWORKS. THE BREECH BEGAN AS FAR BACK AS APRIL.

>> Woodruff: AND ON WALL STREET, THE DOW JONES INDUSTRIAL AVERAGE GAINED 109 POINTS TO CLOSE JUST SHORT OF 17,266. THE NASDAQ ROSE 31 POINTS TO CLOSE AT 4,593. AND THE S&P 500 ADDED MORE THAN 9 POINTS, TO FINISH AT 2011.

>> Ifill: STILL TO COME ON THE NEWSHOUR, COPYCAT JIHADISTS ARRESTED FOR ALLEGEDLY PLOTTING BEHEADINGS IN AUSTRALIA. WHAT ROLES COUNTRIES IN THE MIDDLE EAST CAN PLAY IN THE FIGHT AGAINST ISLAMIC STATE MILITANTS. UKRAINE'S PRESIDENT ASKS CONGRESS FOR MORE ECONOMIC AND MILITARY AID. PRESERVING NATIVE AMERICAN ARTIFACTS ON FEDERAL LAND. PREVIOUSLY USED FOR OFF-ROADING. WHAT CAN BE DONE TO REBUILD TRUST BETWEEN COMMUNITIES AND THEIR PROTECTORS? AND, WHAT THE CENSUS SAYS ABOUT AMERICA'S RICHEST AND POOREST.

>> Woodruff: NOW TO THE ISLAMIC STATE GROUP'S SHOCKING PLOT IN AUSTRALIA. THE SUNNI MILITANT GROUP REPORTEDLY PLANNED ON BEHEADING A CITIZEN THERE BEFORE AUTHORITIES THWARTED THE MISSION. THE RAIDS ACROSS SYDNEY, AT 12 LOCATIONS, WERE THE LARGEST IN AUSTRALIA'S HISTORY. 800 FEDERAL AND STATE POLICE OFFICERS SWARMED RESIDENTIAL AREAS, INITIALLY DETAINING 15 PEOPLE.

>> THE VIOLENCE WAS TO BE PERPETRATED ON A MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC ON THE STREETS, AND CERTAINLY AT THIS STAGE WAS AT A VERY HIGH LEVEL.

>> Woodruff: NINE SUSPECTS WERE LET GO, SIX OTHERS WERE HELD, INCLUDING 22-YEAR-OLD, OMARJAN AZARI, WHO APPEARED IN COURT. AUSTRALIAN PRIME MINISTER TONY ABBOTT SAID INTELLIGENCE INDICATED SUPPORTERS OF ISLAMIC STATE-- OR ISIL-- PLANNED TO BEHEAD A RANDOM PERSON IN PUBLIC.

>> EXHORTATIONS, QUITE DIRECT EXHORTATIONS WERE COMING FROM AN AUSTRALIAN WHO IS APPARENTLY QUITE SENIOR IN ISIL, TO NETWORKS OF SUPPORT BACK IN AUSTRALIA, TO CONDUCT DEMONSTRATION KILLINGS HERE IN THIS COUNTRY. SO THIS IS NOT JUST SUSPICION, THIS IS INTENT, AND THAT'S WHY THE POLICE AND SECURITY AGENCIES DECIDED TO ACT IN THE WAY THEY HAVE.

>> Woodruff: SYDNEY RESIDENTS, ESPECIALLY THOSE LIVING NEAR THE SUSPECTS' HOMES WERE UNNERVED.

>> WE GREW UP IN THIS AREA AND NOT ONCE DID WE EVER THINK WE WERE GOING TO HAVE TERRORISTS LIVING IN OUR BACK YARD SO NOW THAT WE CAN SEE IT HAPPENING OF COURSE IT'S SCARY ESPECIALLY BRINGING UP OUR OWN CHILDREN AROUND HERE NOW IT'S SCARY.

>> SCARY, WELL LET'S PUT IT THIS WAY, THE WORLD IS A VERY SMALL PLACE NOW AND THINKING AUSTRALIA IS IMMUNE TO SOMETHING LIKE THIS IS JUST NOT AN OPTION. COMPLACENCY GETS YOU INTO TROUBLE.

>> Woodruff: THE RAIDS CAME HOURS BEFORE PRIME MINISTER ABBOTT MET WITH AUSTRALIAN TROOPS LEAVING FOR THE MIDDLE EAST, TO SUPPORT A COALITION FIGHTING THE ISLAMIC STATE. A SHORT TIME AGO, I SPOKE VIA SKYPE TO SYDNEY-BASED JOURNALIST STUART COHEN, WHO'S BEEN COVERING THE STORY. STUART COHEN, THANK YOU FOR TALKING TO US. WHAT EVIDENCE, FIRST OF ALL, DID POLICE HAVE BEFORE THEY ARRESTED THESE SUSPECTS?

>> WELSH OBVIOUSLY, AS WITH ANY INTELLIGENCE OPERATION, THEY'RE PLAYING THEIR CARDS VERY CLOSE TO THE VEST, BUT ONE THING THEY DID LET OUT WAS THAT THE RAIDS THAT TOOK PLACE IN SYDNEY WERE BASED ON AN INTERCEPTED PHONE CALL BETWEEN THAT SENIOR ISIS MILITANT, THAT SENIOR AUSTRALIAN ISIS MILITANT THAT TONY ABBOTT MENTIONED IN THE PIECE BEFORE AND OMARJAN AZARI, WHO WAS THE 22 YEAR OLD WHO IS THE ONLY PERSON WHO HAS BEEN CHARGED IN THESE ARRESTS SO FAR. SO THAT'S THE ONE PIECE OF INTELLIGENCE THAT THEY DID LET SLIP, THAT THEY HAD INTERCEPTED THE PHONE CALL, AND THAT'S WHAT PUT THIS WHOLE OPERATION IN MOTION, REALIZING THAT THEY WERE CLOSE TO POSSIBLY CARRYING OUT THESE ATTACKS.

>> Woodruff: WHAT MADE THEM THINK THESE INDIVIDUALS WERE ACTUALLY GOING TO CARRY THEM OUT?

>> WELL, THEY HAVE BEEN HAVING THESE PEOPLE UNDER SURVEILLANCE FOR A WHILE. THAT'S THE BEST THAT THE POLICE WOULD SAY. THEY'VE BEEN WATCHING THESE PEOPLE. OBVIOUSLY THEY HAD REASON EVER SINCE THE TERROR ALERT WAS RAISED LAST WEEK TO HIGH, WHICH MEANS THAT THE TERROR ALERT IS NOW OR A TERROR ATTACK IS NOW LIKELY IN AUSTRALIA, THEY'VE BEEN PUTTING SOME INCREASED SCRUTINY ON PEOPLE THEY KNOW WHERE THE RADICAL ISLAMIC ELEMENT IS IN SYDNEY, AND THEY KEEP A LOT OF THESE PEOPLE UNDER SURVEILLANCE. THEY FIGURED THE TIME WAS RIGHT. IT WAS TIME TO GET IN THERE AND START MAKING ARRESTS BEFORE THE WORST THING COULD HAPPEN AND THEY COULD CARRY OUT SOME SORT OF AN ATTACK.

>> Woodruff: IN FACT, I WAS READING ONE REPORT THAT SAID THEY ESTIMATE THERE ARE ABOUT 100 PEOPLE INSIDE AUSTRALIA NOW WHO ARE ACTIVELY SUPPORTING THE ISLAMIC STATE GROUP. IF THEY KNOW THAT MUCH ABOUT THEM, WHY HAVEN'T THEY ARRESTED MORE?

>> WELL, I GUESS IN SOME WAYS YOU HAVE TO WAIT FOR A CRIME TO OCCUR. THEY'RE KEEPING A WATCH ON PEOPLE. THERE ARE PEOPLE, LIKE YOU SAID, ABOUT 100 PEOPLE WHO THEY BELIEVE ARE SUPPORTING THE ISIS MOVEMENT EITHER THROUGH FUND-RAISING OR HELPING TO RECRUIT PEOPLE TO SEND OVERSEAS. IN FACT, THEY DID ARREST TWO PEOPLE LAST WEEK IN A RAID IN BRISBANE AND CHARGED THEM WITH SUPPORTING THE ISLAMIC STATE MOVEMENT THROUGH RAISING FUNDS AND HELPING TO RECRUIT JIHADISTS TO SEND OVERSEAS. SO THOSE TWO PEOPLE WERE ARRESTED. THEY'RE KEEPING AN EYE ON THE OTHER 100 OR SO THAT THEY BELIEVE HAVE LINKS TO THE MOVEMENT, AND THEN, OF COURSE, THERE ARE 60 PEOPLE THAT THEY THINK, 60 OR SO PEOPLE THEY THINK ARE OVERSEAS ACTIVELY FIGHTING FOR THE MOVEMENT. SOME OF THOSE PEOPLE, THEY'VE ALREADY CANCELED THEIR PASSPORTS AND ISSUED ARREST WARRANTS FOR SOME OF THEM. IF THEY EVER RETURN TO AUSTRALIA, THEY'LL BE ARRESTED, BUT THE QUESTION IS IF THOSE PEOPLE COME BACK. OBVIOUSLY THAT'S A BIG CONCERN IS WHEN AND IF THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE FIGHTING OVERSEAS START COMING BACK. THAT'S WHAT GIVES THE GOVERNMENT CAUSE FOR CONCERN.

>> Woodruff: DO THEY HAVE A THEORY ABOUT WHY THIS WAS GOING TO HAPPEN OR THEY WERE TRYING TO MAKE IT HAPPEN IN AUSTRALIA? IS IT BECAUSE AUSTRALIA IS ABOUT TO SEND TROOPS OVER TO FIGHT THE ISLAMIC STATE GROUP? WHAT DO YOU HEAR ABOUT THAT?

>> WELL, PART OF IT IS. I THINK THERE ARE SOME SENIOR MEMBERS OF THE OPPOSITION IN PARLIAMENT WHO ARE HAVING THE SAME CONCERN, THAT BECAUSE OF THE COMMITMENT OF 600 TROOPS TO THE COALITION THAT'S GOING TO FIGHT THE ISLAMIC STATE, THAT THAT MAKES AUSTRALIA A BIGGER TARGET FOR DOMESTIC TERRORIST ATTACK, BUT LIKE A LOT OF PLACES AROUND THE WORLD, LIKE THE U.S. AND THE U.K., THERE ARE A LOT OF IMMIGRANTS, A LOT OF MUSLIM IMMIGRANTS, AND THERE ARE GOING TO BE A SORT OF DISAFFECTED, MARGINALIZED MINORITY THAT FIND NO HOME IN THEIR ADOPTED COUNTRY, AND THE ONLY THING THAT THEY RESORT TO IS RADICAL ISLAM. AND THEY FIND A WELCOME HOME AMONG A CERTAIN COMMUNITY THAT WANTS TO CARRY OUT THESE ATTACKS. AUSTRALIA AS A WESTERN NATION AND AS A BACKER OF U.S. POLICY, A VERY STRONG BACKER OF U.S. POLICY, FINDS ITSELF A TARGET FOR THESE PEOPLE.

>> Woodruff: STUART, LAST QUESTION. HOW IS THE AUSTRALIAN PUBLIC REACTING TO THIS, ESPECIALLY THERE IN SYDNEY?

>> WELL, I THINK PEOPLE ARE QUITE SURPRISED. I THINK IT'S GOING TO TAKE A LITTLE BIT LONGER TO SEE HOW THINGS SHAKE OUT. OBVIOUSLY THE INITIAL REACTION IS QUITE A BIT OF SURPRISE, ESPECIALLY IN SOME OF THE NEIGHBORHOODS WHERE PEOPLE FIND THAT THEY HAVE SUSPECTED TERRORISTS LIVING AMONG THEM. A LOT OF THESE ARRESTS TOOK PLACE IN VERY IMMIGRANT-RICH COMMUNITIES. A LOT OF THE PEOPLE AROUND THERE STILL CAN'T BELIEVE THAT SOME OF THE PEOPLE WITHIN THEIR NEIGHBORHOODS WERE EVEN ARRESTED AND STILL DON'T BELIEVE THEY HAD ANYTHING TO DO. THERE IS A CERTAIN DEGREE OF BELIEF THAT MAYBE THE GOVERNMENT HAS BEEN OVERINFLATING THIS TERROR RISK TO SORT OF DISTRACT THE PUBLIC FROM SOME RATHER UNPOPULAR DOMESTIC POLICIES THAT ARE GOING ON RIGHT NOW.

>> Woodruff: SO NOT WIDESPREAD FEAR?

>> NOT WIDESPREAD FEAR AT THIS POINT. THERE HASN'T BEEN AN ATTACK HERE. THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A TERRORIST ATTACK IN AUSTRALIA.

>> Woodruff: REPORTER STUART COHEN IN SYDNEY, WE THANK YOU.

>> YOU'RE WELCOME, JUDY.

>> Woodruff: THE MOST IMMEDIATE THREAT THAT THE ISLAMIC STATE GROUP POSES, OF COURSE, IS IN THE MIDDLE EAST. TONIGHT, HARI SREENIVASAN TAKES A CLOSER LOOK AT HOW THAT REGION VIEWS THE GROUP AND EFFORTS LED BY THE UNITED STATES TO STOP IT.

>> Sreenivasan: JOINING ME NOW TO EXPLORE THAT IS THE FORMER JORDANIAN PRIME MINISTER. HE'S THE AUTHOR OF "THE SECOND ARAB AWAKENING AND THE BATTLE FOR PLURALISM." ROBIN WRIGHT HAS REPORTED EXTENSIVELY ON THE ARAB WORLD. SHE'S A FELLOW AT THE WOODROW WILSON INTERNATIONAL CENTER. AND WE'RE ALSO JOINED BY THE DIRECT YOU FOR THE CENTER OF MIDEAST STUDIES. THIS WEEK THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION HAS BEEN LAYING OUT THE CASE THE TRY TO DRUM UP SUPPORT FOR THE U.S. PLAN AGAINST THE ISLAMIC STATE. HOW MUCH SUPPORT IS THERE IN JORDAN WHERE YOU ARE?

>> THERE'S A LOT OF SUPPORT IN JORDAN AGAINST, YOU KNOW, ISIS. THAT DOES NOT MEAN, OF COURSE, AGAIN BOOTS ON THE GROUND IN THE CASE OF THE JORDANIAN, BUT IT WILL MEAN A LOT OF INTELLIGENCE SUPPORT, A LOT OF LOGISTICAL SUPPORT, A LOT OF SUPPORT THAT WE'VE SEEN BEFORE WHEN JORDAN COOPERATED WITH THE AMERICANS AGAINST ABU MUSAB AL-ZARQAWI AND THE PREDECESSOR OF I.S. IN IRAQ IN 2007. YOU CAN EXPECT MUCH OF THAT SUPPORT AGAIN.

>> Sreenivasan: WHAT'S YOUR TAKE ON THE PEOPLE AND THE LEADERS IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND HOW MUCH THEY SUPPORT THE U.S. PLAN?

>> I THINK ONE ALWAYS HAS THE MAKE THAT DISTINCTION BETWEEN THE PEOPLE AND THE LEADERS OF THE MIDDLE EAST, BECAUSE WHAT THE PEOPLE WANT IS NOT ALWAYS REFLECTED IN SORT OF OFFICIAL, ELITE POSITION. I THINK THERE'S ALWAYS THE BACK DROP OF THE LEGACY OF EXTERNAL INTERVENTION, THE LEGACY OF COLONIALISM, AND MORE RECENTLY THE LEGACY OF THE DISASTER OF THE IRAQ WAR. PEOPLE I THINK ARE VERY FEARFUL OF A REPEAT OF THAT SCENARIO PLAYING ITSELF OUT IF THIS INTERVENTION GOES BADLY WRONG. THERE IS ALSO JUST THE GENERAL SET OF UNCERTAINTY AND LACK OF CLARITY IN TERMS OF WHAT OBAMA'S LONG-TERM STRATEGY FOR THE REGION IS, BECAUSE HE SEEMS TO HAVE BEEN SENDING SIGNALS IN RECENT YEARS THAT HE WASN'T INTERESTED IN INVESTING ANY TIME AND ATTENTION IN THE MIDDLE EAST. HE WANTED TO PIVOT TO ASIA AND REDUCE THE AMERICAN FINGERPRINT, ALL FOR VERY GOOD REASONS. THEN HIS WHOLE STRATEGY WITH RESPECT TO THE BLOODLETTING AND THE DISASTER IN SYRIA HAS RAISED A LOT OF QUESTIONS ABOUT WHERE OBAMA STANDS, WHAT HIS GRAND STRATEGY IS. I THINK THERE'S A LOT OF DEEP CONCERN BOTH AT THE POPULAR LEVEL AND ALSO AT THE GOVERNMENTAL LEVEL WITH RESPECT TO WHAT COMES NEXT.

>> Sreenivasan: ROBIN WRIGHT, YOU'VE BEEN THE IRAN TWICE IN THE PAST COUPLE MONTHS NOW. HOW DO LEADERS THERE VIEW THE THREAT FROM THE ISLAMIC STATE OR THE MILITANTS CALLING THEMSELVESES THE ISLAMIC STATE AND THE U.S. PLAN TO CONFRONT IT?

>> WELL, AFTER 35 YEARS OF TENSION, THIS IS THE FIRST TIME THAT WASHINGTON AND TEHRAN HAVE COMMON CAUSE WHEN IT COMES TO A CHALLENGE IN THE REGION. DURING THE U.S. INTERVENTION FOR EIGHT YEARS, IRAN WAS THE NEMESIS OF THE UNITED STATES. TODAY THEY BOTH FEEL THAT THE ISLAMIC STATE IS THE GREATEST THREAT IN THE REGION. THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THEY'RE NECESSARILY GOING TO COOPERATE. IT IS CLEAR THAT THESE ARE THE TWO COUNTRIES THAT ARE MOST ACTIVE IN CONFRONTING THE -- THE IRANIANS BY PROVIDING EQUIPMENT TO THE PESHMERGA, THE MAIN FIGHTING FORCE ON THE GROUND, THE UNITED STATES THROUGH AIR POWER. THERE HAVE BEEN KIND OF TENTATIVE OVERTURES BY THE AMERICANS TO THE IRANIANS, BUT SO FAR THEY HAVE REJECTED THE IDEA OF COOPERATION. IN FACT, THE IRANIANS BELIEVE THAT THE UNITED STATES BEARS SOME CULPABILITY FOR THE CREATION OF ISIS BECAUSE IT WAS THE -- THERE WAS NO ISIL BEFORE THE U.S. INTERVENTION. THERE WAS NO AL QAEDA IN IRAQ BEFORE THE U.S. INTERVENTION. AND THEY ALSO BELIEVE THAT THE U.S. ALLIES, PARTICULARLY IN THE GULF COUNTRIES, WERE RESPONSIBLE FOR FUNDING, FUELING THE KIND OF SUNNI EXTREMISM IN THE REGION. SO THERE'S COMMON CAUSE, BUT THERE'S ALSO VERY DEEP SUSPICION.

>> Sreenivasan: ROBIN, STAYING WITH YOU FOR A SECOND, WHAT ABOUT THE OTHER LEADERS IN THE REGION?

>> I THINK THERE IS A SCEPTICISM. THE UNITED STATES IS REALLY REACHING OUT TO AS MANY LEADERS IN THE REGION TO GIVE THE HEFT AND MOMENTUM AND CREDIBILITY OF A U.S.-LED COALITION. THE PROBLEM IS THAT THE PERFORMANCE OF THE UNITED STATES DURING THE IRAQ WAR, ACTUALLY TWO IRAQ WARS IN THE LAST QUARTER CENTURY, AND THIS IS THE THIRD, THE FAILURE OF IRAQ AFTER NATO INTERVENTION, TODAY IT IS ALMOST A FAILED STATE. THE GOOD EFFORT AT TRYING TO GET A PEACE PROCESS GOING BETWEEN THE PALESTINIANS AND THE ISRAELIS, BUT THAT DIDN'T GO ANY PLACE. THERE IS A GREAT DEAL OF EMBEDDED SCEPTICISM ABOUT WHETHER THE UNITED STATES IS COMMITTED FOR THE LONG TERM, CAN PULL IT OFF, REALLY CAN MAKE THIS HAPPEN. AND PARTICULARLY BECAUSE THERE'S NO SPECIFIC PLAN. IRAQ IS CLEARLY PART ONE, BUT THEN SYRIA RUINS BECAUSE YOU CAN'T DESTROY AL QAEDA OR ISIS UNLESS YOU ACT IN SYRIA, AS WELL. THAT'S A LONG-TERM OPERATION. I THINK THERE'S A LOT OF NERVOUSNESS. THAT'S WHY WE DON'T HAVE THE SERIOUSNESS OF COMMITMENT, THE ROBUSTNESS THAT WE WANT.

>> Sreenivasan: AND YOU MENTION THE INTERVENTION IN LIBYA, AS WELL, RIGHT?

>> YES.

>> .

>> Sreenivasan: WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT? DOES THE U.S. HAVE THE CREDIBILITY GIVEN ITS INVOLVEMENT IN RECENT YEARS?

>> PEOPLE IN THE REGION LOOK WITH GREAT SCEPTICISM ABOUT THE U.S. AND ITS INVOLVEMENT IN THE REGION PRECISELY BECAUSE OF THE REASONS THAT ROBIN JUST MENTIONED. ON THE MILITARY SIDE, THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT THERE IS NO OTHER COUNTRY THAN THE UNITED STATES THAT CAN AT LEAST HAVE A CHANCE OF GETTING THESE PEOPLE EVEN WITHOUT WOODS ON THE GROUND, BUT THE CORE OF THE MATTER REMAINS THE POLITICAL PROCESS. ISIS DID NOT EMERGE OUT OF A VACUUM. IT EMERGED OUT OF FRUSTRATION AND A FEELING OF MARGINALIZATION BY CERTAIN GROUPS, PARTICULARLY THE SUNNIS IN IRAQ. THEREFORE I I HAVE A POLITICAL PROCESS, FORMING A TRULY INCLUSIVE IRAQI GOVERNMENT, GETTING THE SUNNI TRIBES TO COOPERATE AGAINST ISIS INSTEAD OF WITH THEM IS REALLY THE CORE OF THE, SHOE AND NOT JUST A MILITARY OPTION THAT. IS SOMETHING THAT FRANKLY THE UNITED STATES IS NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO DO, PARTICULARLY IF IT IS NOT PHYSICALLY ON THE GROUND. THAT IS SOMETHING THAT THE COUNTRIES OF THE REGION, IRAQ AND ITS NEIGHBORS, SAUDI ARABIA, JORDAN, TURKEY AND OTHERS, HAVE TO RISE UP TO THE PLATE AND HELP PUT IN PLACE A POLITICAL PROCESS THAT TRIES TO ADDRESS THE UNDERLYING CAUSES THAT HAVE LED TO THE EMERGENCE OF RAL -- RADICAL GROUPS.

>> ONE OF THE PROBLEMS WITH THE ADMINISTRATION'S -- ONE OF THE PRONGS OF THE ADMINISTRATION'S APPROACH IS TO TRY TO DELEGITIMIZE THE RELIGIOUS PLACE THE ISLAMIC STATE IS TRYING TO OCCUPY. CLERICS ARE TRYING TO ISSUE FATWAS AGAINST SYSTEM OF THEIR ACTIONS. DOES THIS HAVE ANY IMPACT?

>> I DON'T THINK IF THE UNITED STATES DOES IT IT'S GOING TO HAVE MUCH IMPACT, BUT I THINK THERE IS A DEEPER SORT OF NECESSITY HERE TO TRY AND DELEGITIMIZE AND PROVIDE IDEOLOGICAL ALTERNATIVES TO ISIS. IT'S NOT A COINCIDENCE, I WOULD ARGUE, THAT WE'RE SEEING THE RISE OF ISIS IN THE IMMEDIATE AFTERMATH OF, YOU KNOW, THE ENTERED FAILURE OF THE ARAB SPRING TO PROVIDE DEMOCRATIC ALTERNATIVES, POLITICAL OPENINGS. I THINK THE TWO ARE DEEPLY CONNECTED. AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, THIS, SHOE HAS TO BE DEALT WITH QUITE SERIOUSLY. THERE'S DEEP PROBLEMS HERE IN THE REGION, YOU KNOW, ROOTED IN I THINK FUNDAMENTALLY A BROAD CRISIS OF LEGITIMACY AMONG MOST OF THE STATES IN THE REGION, LACK OF EFFECTIVE GOVERNANCE, LACK OF SORT OF, YOU KNOW, HOPE THAT THERE COULD BE ALTERNATIVES TO VIOLENT REVOLUTION. AND SO, YOU KNOW, THE UNITED STATES CAN'T REALLY PLAY THAT ROLE. THAT HAS TO COME FROM WITHIN THE REGION AND AMONG FORCES THAT, YOU KNOW, CAN PROVIDE IDEOLOGICAL ALTERNATIVES TO ISIS THAT. WAS TRIED DURING THE ARAB SPRING. IT WAS CRUSHED BY THE EXISTING STATES, PREDICTABLY THEY WOULD PUSH BACK AGAINST DEMOCRATIC OPENINGS. SADLY THE UNITED STATES STOOD ON THE SIDELINES WHEN THE DEEP STATE AND THE REGIMES TRIED TO CRUSH THOSE POLITICAL OPENINGS. NOW IT'S EMBRACING THOSE SAME REGIMES TRYING TO DEMARCO MOCKTIZE THE REGION. THIS ALSO PLACE INTO A VERY MESSY PICTURE. IT DOESN'T BODE VERY WELL FOR ATTRACTING YOUNG PEOPLE IN THE ARAB ISLAMIC WORLD AWAY FROM THE ISIS PROJECT AND PROGRAM.

>> Sreenivasan: ROBIN, THIS WEEK WE HEARD THE ADMINISTRATION TALK ABOUT ARMING THE SYRIAN OPPOSITION FASTER. WILL THAT PART WORK?

>> WELL, IF YOU LOOK AT THE TWO MILITARIES INVOLVED ON THE GROUND, YOU HAVE THE IRAQIS, WHICH WE TRAINED OVER EIGHT YEARS, WHICH LOST FOUR DIVISIONS IN A MATTER OF DAYS WHEN ISIS SWEPT INTO NORTHERN AND WESTERN IRAQ. AND NOW THE PROJECTION IS IT WILL TAKE THREE YEARS TO RETRAIN AND ARM ENOUGH TO BE ABLE TO FIGHT, THAT HALF THE FORCES ARE INEFFECTIVE AND THE OTHER HALF HAVE TO BE RETRAINED. THINK OF THAT WHEN YOU COMPARE IT TO THE REBELS WHO ARE FARMERS AND PHARMACISTS AND SO FORTH IN SYRIA AND THAT WERE NEVER A UNIFIED FIGHTING FORCE, NEVER HAD... OR FEW OF THEM HAD REGULAR MILITARY TRAINING. SO WE ALREADY KNOW THE DAUNTING TASK WE FACE IN IRAQ. JUST IMAGINE HOW LONG IT WILL TAKE TO CRAFT A FORCE THAT IS COMPARATIVELY SMALL, VERY POORLY TRAINED, VERY INEXPERIENCED AND IT DOESN'T HAVE A VERY GOOD TRACK RECORD OVER THE PAST THREE YEARS. THAT'S WHY ISIS HAS DONE SO MUCH BETTER. OF COURSE, THE DANGERS WE DISCOVERED IN AFGHANISTAN WAS YOU CAN GIVE ARMS TO ONE SIDE, BUT THEN THEY ARE STOLEN OR SOLD TO THE OTHER, AND YOU END UP HAVING TO BUY YOU OWN WELLS BACK TO PREVENT THEM FROM US BECOMING A TARGET. THIS IS A MUCH MORE COMPLICATED, A MUCH LONGER, MUCH MORE PAINFUL AND MUCH MORE DANGEROUS CHALLENGE.

>> Sreenivasan: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANKS.

>> Ifill: AS THE CRISIS BACK HOME CONTINUES TO THREATEN THE FUTURE OF HIS COUNTRY. UKRAINE'S PRESIDENT CAME TO WASHINGTON TODAY WITH A PLEA FOR HELP. CHIEF FOREIGN AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT MARGARET WARNER REPORTS.

>> MR. SPEAKER! THE PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE.

>> Reporter: PETRO POROSHENKO WON A STANDING OVATION AS HE ADDRESSED THE HOUSE AND SENATE THIS MORNING. IT WAS HIS FIRST VISIT TO WASHINGTON SINCE BEING ELECTED PRESIDENT OF THE FORMER SOVIET REPUBLIC, AND HE MADE CLEAR HE'S COUNTING ON MORE U.S. SUPPORT TO REGAIN CONTROL OF EASTERN UKRAINE.

>> UNITED STATES MADE A COMMITMENT THAT IT WOULD STAND BEHIND UKRAINE'S TERRITORIAL INTEGRITY AND WE HOPE THAT IT WILL LIVE UP TO THAT PROMISE. ( APPLAUSE ) DEMOCRACIES MUST SUPPORT EACH OTHER. THEY MUST SHOW SOLIDARITY IN THE FACE OF AGGRESSION AND ADVERSITY.

>> Reporter: COUNTRY'S SOLDIERS NEED MORE AND HEAVIER WEAPONS TO DEFEAT RUSSIAN-BACKED SEPARATISTS AND DRIVE RUSSIAN TROOPS FROM UKRAINIAN SOIL.

>> I URGE THE WORLD TO RECOGNIZE AND ENDORSE THEIR FIGHT. THEY NEED MORE POLITICAL SUPPORT. AND THEY NEED MORE MILITARY EQUIPMENT, BOTH NON-LETHAL AND LETHAL. BLANKETS AND NIGHT-VISION GOGGLES IMPORTANT. BUT ONE CANNOT WIN A WAR WITH BLANKETS!

>> Reporter: AS POROSHENKO FINISHED, THE WHITE HOUSE ANNOUNCED AN ADDITIONAL AID PACKAGE, WORTH $53 MILLION, THAT DOES NOT INCLUDE ANY MAJOR WEAPONRY. INSTEAD, IT PROVIDES MORE BODY ARMOR, HELMETS, NIGHT-VISION GOGGLES AND RADAR, PLUS HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE. THAT LEFT POROSHENKO TO MAKE HIS CASE DIRECTLY TO PRESIDENT OBAMA IN THE OVAL OFFICE.

>> IN ADDITION TO THE CONCRETE EXPRESSIONS OF SUPPORT THROUGH SECURITY ASSISTANCE AND ECONOMIC ASSISTANCE, WE ARE GOING TO CONTINUE TO HELP TO MOBILIZE THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY TOWARDS A DIPLOMATIC SOLUTION. I HAVE GREAT CONFIDENCE THAT PRESIDENT POROSHENKO IS BALANCING A LOT OF DIFFERENT VARIABLES HERE AND A VERY DIFFICULT SITUATION. I WAS IMPRESSED TODAY BY THE LEVEL OF SUPPORT THE BIPARTISAN SUPPORT WHICH WAS DEMONSTRATED IN THE CONGRESS. AND I WANT TO THANK YOU TO THE PRESIDENT FOR HIS LEADERSHIP N THE WORLD FOR PROTECTING UKRAINE'S SOVEREIGNTY, TERRITORIAL INTEGRITY, AND INDEPENDENCE.

>> Reporter: TO A GREAT EXTENT, THE POROSHENKO VISIT TO WASHINGTON WAS AIMED ALSO AT SENDING A MESSAGE TO MOSCOW. TO THAT END, HE CALLED FOR MORE SWEEPING SANCTIONS ON RUSSIA FOR ITS INCURSION. AND HE SAID UKRAINE WANTS SPECIAL SECURITY STATUS THE HIGHEST LEVEL OF TIES TO NATO FOR A NON-MEMBER STATE. BUT JUST AS URGENT FOR POROSHENKO'S GOVERNMENT IS THE NEED TO SHORE UP A STRUGGLING ECONOMY. ON TUESDAY, UKRAINIAN LAWMAKERS CHEERED APPROVAL OF A LANDMARK DEAL FOR CLOSER ECONOMIC AND POLITICAL LINKS WITH THE EUROPEAN UNION. WHICH RUSSIAN PRES. VLADIMIR PUTIN HAS ADAMANTLY OPPOSED BEHIND CLOSED DOORS, THEY ALSO PASSED LAWS GIVING AMNESTY TO REBELS AND AND TEMPORARY SELF- RULE FOR THE EASTERN AREAS OF LUHANSK AND DONETSK. THOSE MEASURES HAVE FACED CRITICISM IN KIEV AS TACITLY ACCEPTING RUSSIAN AGGRESSION. BUT, THEY'RE IN ACCORDANCE WITH A CEASEFIRE AGREEMENT SIGNED ON SEPTEMBER FIVE AFTER MONTHS OF HEAVY FIGHTING. RUSSIA IS PARTY TO THE DEAL, EVEN THOUGH IT CONTINUES TO DENY ITS INVOLVEMENT OR THE PRESENCE OF RUSSIAN TROOPS INSIDE UKRAINE. MEANWHILE, A REBEL COMMANDER IN DONETSK SAID THIS WEEK THE SEPARATIST REGIONS DO NOT WANT TO BE A PART OF UKRAINE, NOR JOIN RUSSIA EITHER, AT LEAST FOR NOW. COMMANDER OF REBEL VOSTOK BATTALION, ALEXANDER KHODAKOVSKY.

>> WE FOUND OURSELVES BETWEEN 'A ROCK AND A HARD PLACE. WE CANNOT STAY WITH UKRAINE FOR IDEOLOGICAL REASONS, WE CANNOT BE WITH RUSSIA FOR VARIOUS ECONOMIC AND POLITICAL REASONS. SO THERE IS THE ONLY WAY LEFT: LET THIS TERRITORY BE UNRECOGNISED, WE WILL TRY TO ORGANISE LIFE HERE STEP BY STEP.

>> Reporter: THE CEASE-FIRE ITSELF seemed TODAY TO BE HOLDING FOR THE MOST PART, DESPITE SPORADIC VIOLATIONS. AND PEACE TALKS INVOLVING RUSSIA, UKRAINE AND THE REBELS WILL RESUME TOMORROW, IN BELARUS.

>> Woodruff: A BATTLE OVER THE QUESTION OF LOCAL CONTROL VERSUS FEDERAL POWER IS PLAYING OUT IN THE WESTERN U.S. ONCE AGAIN AND THIS TIME IT INVOLVES A PRIZED NATIVE AMERICAN ARCHAEOLOGICAL SITE. IT'S HAPPENING IN UTAH WHERE FEDERAL PROSECUTORS FILED CRIMINAL CHARGES OF CONSPIRACY YESTERDAY AGAINST FIVE MEN WHO ORGANIZED AN ILLEGAL ALL-TERRAIN VEHICLE RIDE INTO A CANYON CLOSED TO MOTORIZED VEHICLES. SEVEN YEARS AGO, FEDERAL LAND MANAGERS CLOSED THE CANYON TO A.T.V.'s AND THE LIKE TO PROTECT IT. SINCE THAT TIME, THE DISPUTE HAS COME TO STAND FOR A MUCH LARGER FIGHT. JEFFREY BROWN VISITED THE CANYON AND THE PROTEST ORGANIZERS FOR HIS SERIES, "CULTURE AT RISK."

>> Brown: RECAPTURE CANYON, 28 MILES OF ROCKY CLIFFS, JUNIPER TREES AND WILDLIFE IN SOUTHEAST UTAH. FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS, BEGINNING AROUND 500 A.D., IT WAS HOME TO A LARGE NATIVE AMERICAN PUEBLO POPULATION. SO HOW MANY PEOPLE WOULD HAVE LIVED IN A PLACE LIKE THIS?

>> IN A STRUCTURE LIKE THIS WOW WOULD HAVE PROBABLY HAD AN EXTENDED FAMILY, TEN, 12, MAYBE UP TO 15 PEOPLE.

>> UTAH ARCHAEOLOGIST JORDY PATTERSON BROUGHT US ON A MILE-LONG HIKE INTO RECAPTURE TO SEE THE REMAINS OF ONE OF ITS MANY CLIFF DWELLINGS.

>> IT'S A LITTLE LIKE AN APARTMENT COMPLEX BUILT INTO A ROCK.

>> YOU HAVE ENOUGH ROOMS FOR LIVING, FOR COOKING, FOR SLEEPING AND SOME ACTIVITY AREAS, TOO, FOR DOING SOME OTHER THINGS OUT FRONT.

>> Brown: FOR ARCHAEOLOGISTS AND HISTORY BUFF, RECAPTURE CANYON IS A GOLD MINE, ONE THAT REQUIRES CAREFUL PRESERVATION.

>> WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND THE IMPACTS THAT ARE GOING TO BE HAPPENING TO SITES LIKE THIS THROUGHOUT THE CANYON BEFORE WE OPEN IT UP AND JUST LET EVERYBODY COME IN. >>>> Brown: SEVERAL YEARS AGO THE FEDERAL BUREAU OF LAND MANAGEMENT AGREED.

>> IN 2007 WE DECIDED TO CLOSE THE CAPON BECAUSE OF THE AMAZING CULTURAL AND ARCHAEOLOGICAL RESOURCES HERE. WE NEEDED TO PROTECT THEM FROM THE DEGRADATION THAT CAN OCCUR WHEN YOU'RE USING THE AREA WITH MOTORIZED RECREATION.

>> Brown: BUT THE YEARS OF CLOSURE HAVE ANGERED MANY. EARLIER THIS SUMMER, LOCAL RESIDENTS, ALL-TERRAIN VEHICLE ENTHUSISTS AND STATES RIGHTS ACTIVIST CAME TO PROTEST WHAT THEY SEE AS A BLATANT ABUSE OF POWER BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. HUNDREDS SHOWED UP, SOME RIDING ILLEGALLY INTO THE CANYON. JOHN FALMOUTH ATTENDED THE RECAPTURE PROTEST, THOUGH RERODE NO FURTHER THAN THE CANYON CLOSURE.

>> IT JUST SEEMS LIKE ATVs, WHICH WE VIEW AS A PERFECTLY LEGITIMATE, IS OFT TIMES CAST AS AN INAPPROPRIATE AND DAMAGING USE OF THE OUTDOORS, OF THE FEDERAL LANDS. THAT'S NOT THE CASE.

>> Brown: LAST WEEK'S PROTEST CAME JUST AFTER A SHOWDOWN OVER UNPAID GRAZING FEES. TENSIONS THROUGHOUT THE WEST WERE HIGH.

>> SOMETHING MAGICAL ABOUT IT.

>> Brown: SAN JUAN COUNTY COMMISSIONER PHIL LYMAN WAS THE MAN WHO ORGANIZED THE PROTEST. LYMAN SAYS HE TOO HAS A SENSE OF HISTORY AND LOVE FOR THIS PLACE.

>> THAT'S BEEN THERE FOR 800 YEARS.

>> Brown: LYMAN, WHO LIVES IN NEARBY BLANDING, COMES FROM A LONG LINE OF MORMON SETTLERS.

>> FOR THOSE OF US WHO LIVE HERE, OUR PARENTS AND GRANDPARENTS AND GREAT, GREAT GRANDPARENTS WERE INVOLVED IN BUILDING THOSE ROADS, YOU CAN'T JUST ERASE A TOWN'S HISTORY THAT WAY.

>> Brown: FOR LYMAN, THIS DISPUTE IS OVER HOW MUCH DISPUTE LOCAL GOVERNMENTS HAVE OVER FEDERAL LAND DECISIONS. IT'S MAJOR ISSUE IN A STATE WHERE THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT OWNS TWO-THIRDS OF ALL LAND.

>> IT WAS THE BLM'S DISREGARD FOR LOCAL INTEREST, LOCAL CULTURE, THE LOCAL PEOPLE, THE PEOPLE WHO LIVE HERE AND HAVE LIVED HERE FOR A LONG TIME. THAT'S WHAT I SAY. IT WAS NOT ABOUT RECAPTURE. IT WAS NOT ABOUT ATVs. IT WAS TRYING TO GET A MESSAGE THROUGH THAT THERE ARE ACTUALLY PEOPLE HERE. WE HAVE THE SAME RIGHT THE EXIST IN THIS AREA THAT YOU HAVE TO EXIST IN WASHINGTON, D.C., OR WHEREVER YOU COME FROM.

>> Brown: HE SAYS LOCAL OFFICIALS SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO USE WHAT HE SEES AS A WELL-ESTABLISHED PATHWAY. AND HE'S ANGERED BY THE LENGTH OF TIME THIS HAS ALL TAKEN, SEVEN YEARS AND RUNNING. IN RESPONSE, BLM SPOKESWOMAN MEGAN CRANDALL TOLD US IF DETERMINING ENVIRONMENTAL AND OTHER IMPACTS IS A COMPLICATED PROCESS.

>> WE HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO LOOK AT THINGS LIKE WATER, LOOK AT WILDLIFE, LOOK AT PLANT RESOURCES, SOIL RESOURCES, THE WHOLE THING CREATES A HOLISTIC PICTURE, AND THAT TAKES TIME.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS WE HEAR FROM PEOPLE IS JUST THIS FRUSTRATION WITH PROCESS, HEAVY HANDEDNESS, LACK OF ENGAGEMENT.

>> FIRST OF ALL, I HAVE TO SAY, WE'RE NOT HEAVY HANDED. ONE THING PEOPLE DON'T REALIZE IS HERE IN SAN JUAN COUNTY ON BLM LAND, THERE ARE TRAILS OPEN THE MOTORIZED RECREATION, ABOUT THE DISTANCE BETWEEN NEW YORK AND L.A. THAT'S A LOT OF TRAIL.

>> Brown: CRANDALL ALSO POINTS OUT THE CANYON IS OPEN TO NON-MOTORIZED TRAVEL, HIKERS AND HORSEBACK RIDERS. FOR PHIL LYMAN, THAT'S NOT THE POINT.

>> IT'S JUST ROLLING OVER THE TOP OF COMMUNITIES. THIS RESONATES WITH OTHER RURAL WESTERN COMMUNITIES BECAUSE THEY HAVE SEEN IT THEMSELVES. THEY'RE DEALING WITH THE BLM.

>> SO ONE OF YOU WILL RUN A TAPE.

>> Brown: 200 MILES TO THE NORTH IN UTAH'S NINE MILE CANYON, JERRY SPANGLER AGREES THERE'S SOMETHING GOING ON, EVEN IF HE DISAGREES WITH LYMAN ABOUT EVERYTHING ELSE.

>> THE MAIN TASK IS TO GET THIS COMED AND GET THE ROCK ART DOCUMENTED AND THE RELATIONSHIP OF ANY ARTIFACTS TO THOSE TWO FEATURES.

>> Brown: SPANGLER IS AN ARCHAEOLOGIST WORKING TO PRESERVE SITES THROUGHOUT UTAH, INCLUDING THOUSANDS OF PETROGLIFS, LIKE THE GREAT HUNTER PANEL. HE SEES A VARIETY OF POTENTIAL THREATS FROM WELL-ORGANIZED OIL AND GAS EXPLORATION TO RANDOM VANDALISM.

>> YOU SEE EXAMPLES ALL THE TIME THAT ARCHAEOLOGICAL SITES ARE LIKE BOOKS. THAT BOOK WILL TELL YOU A COMPLETE STORY ABOUT THE PEOPLE THAT LIVE THERE, BUT ONCE YOU START DENIGRATING THE SITE, YOU'RE JUST RIPPING OUT PAGES OUT OF THAT BOOK. AND YOU RIP OUT ENOUGH PAGES, PRETTY SOON THE STORY DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE. WE WANT TO KEEP TO BOOK TOGETHER. WE HAVE A LIBRARY OF BOOKS THAT CAN TELL US A VERY RICH STORY ABOUT PEOPLE WHO LIVED A THOUSAND YEARS AGO.

>> MEANWHILE, SAN WOULD JUAN COY COMMISSIONERS INCLUDING PHIL LYMAN RECENTLY VOTED TO BRING A LAWSUIT AGAINST THE BLM TO FORCE A DECISION ON MOTORIZED VEHICLES IN RECAPTURE CANYON.

>> Woodruff: THERE'S MORE ON OUR WEB SITE ABOUT ARCHAEOLOGICAL SITES AT RISK IN UTAH. TOMORROW NIGHT WE'LL HAVE A SECOND STORY ABOUT A DIFFERENT KIND OF DISPUTE OVER LAND USE IN THE WEST, EXTREME SPORTS.

>> Ifill: WHEN FERGUSON, MISSOURI ERUPTED AFTER THE POLICE-INVOLVED SHOOTING OF AN UNARMED BLACK TEENAGER, THE RIFT BETWEEN THE TOWN AND ITS PROTECTORS WAS LAID BARE. FERGUSON IS NOT THE ONLY COMMUNITY FORCED TO BRIDGE THAT CHASM. TODAY, THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE ANNOUNCED A NEARLY FIVE MILLION PLAN. THE NATIONAL INITIATIVE FOR BUILDING COMMUNITY TRUST AND JUSTICE DESIGNED TO BETTER TRAIN POLICE DEPARTMENTS AGAINST BIAS AND EXAMINE LAW ENFORCEMENT PROCEDURES. THE APPROACH IS KNOWN AS COMMUNITY POLICING. WE ARE JOINED BY TWO PEOPLE WHO HAVE STUDIED IT FOR YEARS. TRACIE KEESEE, THE CO-FOUNDER OF THE UCLA CENTER FOR POLICING EQUITY, WHICH IS RECEIVING SOME OF THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT FUNDING. SHE'S ALSO A 25-YEAR POLICE VETERAN. AND RONALD HAMPTON, FORMER EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE NATIONAL BLACK POLICE ASSOCIATION, AND FOR MORE THAN TWO DECADES A COMMUNITY RELATIONS OFFICE FOR THE METROPOLITAN POLICE IN WASHINGTON, D.C. HE NOW TEACHES CRIMINAL JUSTICE AT THE UNIVERSITY OF THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. WELCOME TO YOU BOTH. TRACIE KEESEE, TODAY THE ATTORNEY GENERAL SAID THAT THE GOAL OF THIS NEW INITIATIVE IS TO ENSURE FAIRNESS, ELIMINATE BIAS AND BUILD COMMUNITY ENGAGEMENT. YOU WERE THERE TODAY AT THAT ANNOUNCEMENT. MAYBE YOU CAN TELL US WHAT EXACTLY THAT MEANS.

>> WELL, WHAT IT MEANS IS THAT THE CONSORTIUM THAT THEY'VE PUT TOGETHER UNDER THE INITIATIVE WILL LOOK AT AND WORK WITH FIVE DIFFERENT CITIES TO ACTUALLY ENACT AND EVALUATE THOSE FIVE THINGS THAT HE'S POINTED OUT.

>> Ifill: FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE THINKING ABOUT THEIR OWN TOWNS AND THEIR OWN NEIGHBORHOODS, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? DOES THAT TRICKLE DOWN IN ANY WAY, OR IS IT ONLY TARGETED TO PLACES THAT HAVE HAD PROBLEMS?

>> IT'S NOT TARGETED TO JUST PLACES THAT HAVE PROBLEMS. IT WOULD BE A VOLUNTARY CALL FOR FOLKS WHO WANT TO PARTICIPATE. WHAT THIS MEANS FOR US IS MOST POLICE CHIEFS WOULD BE PROGRESSIVE IN SAYING WE WANT TO GET AHEAD WHAT WE THINK IS GOING ON OR WE JUST WANT TO BE PROGRESSIVE. THIS IS NOT PUNITIVE IN ANY WAY. I DON'T WANT IT TO COME OFF THAT WAY, THAT SOMEHOW THIS CONSORTIUM OF FOLKS WILL COME INTO A PROBLEM AREA. IT'S ACTUALLY THERE'S A RESOURCE TO HELP POLICE OFFICERS AND POLICE DEPARTMENTS TO LOOK AT THOSE ISSUES OF BIASED POLICING AND LEGITIMACY.

>> Ifill: RONALD HAMPTON, WHY IS THAT IMPORTANT AND WHY SHOULDN'T POLICE DEPARTMENTS BE A LITTLE BIT OFFENDED BY THE IDEA THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT SEES THEM AS A PROBLEM THAT NEEDS FIXING?

>> PRIMARY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS A ENORMOUS RESOURCE FOR POLICE DEPARTMENTS, AND COMMUNITY POLICING IS A STRATEGY THAT HAS SEVERAL COMPONENTS TO IT. FIRST, IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE A COMMUNITY-BASED STRATEGY, ONE THAT GETS THE COMMUNITY AND RESIDENTS INVOLVED IN DEVELOPING STRATEGIES FOR PUBLIC SAFETY. NUMBER TWO, IT'S COLLABORATIVE. NOT ONLY ARE CITIZENS AND NEIGHBORHOODS GOING TO BE INVOLVED, BUT THERE ARE GOING TO BE OTHER PARTNERS THAT ARE ALSO GOING TO BE WORKING WITH THEM TO DEVELOP STRATEGIES AROUND PUBLIC SAFETY. THIRDLY, IT'S ABOUT CHANGING THE POLICE DEPARTMENT, NOT ONLY ON THE OUTSIDE IF TERMS OF WHAT IT DOES EVERY DAY AND HOW IT DOES IT, BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY, IT'S ABOUT CHANGING THE POLICE DEPARTMENT TO FACILITATE WHAT IT DOES ON THE OUTSIDE. AN EXAMPLE, ONE OF THE QUICKEST EXAMPLES WOULD BE THAT A POLICE DEPARTMENT, A TRADITIONAL POLICE DEPARTMENT MEASURES PERFORMANCE BY SAY TICKETS AND NUMBER OF ARRESTS AND ALL OF THAT. IN THE COMMUNITY POLICING MODEL, TICKETS AND THE NUMBER OF ARRESTS DON'T NECESSARILY MEAN THAT A COMMUNITY AND THE PEOPLE WHO LIVE THERE FEEL SAFE. SO IT'S A MORE COMPREHENSIVE APPROACH TO DEVELOPING PUBLIC SAFETY STRATEGIES.

>> Ifill: THE ATTORNEY GENERAL, TRACIE KEESEE, ALSO SPOKE TO THIS IDEA OF MISTRUST. I'M NOT QUITE CERTAIN HOW $5 MILLION FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT SPEAKS TO THAT ISSUE.

>> WELL, IT SPEAKS TO THE INITIATIVES WE WILL BE IMPLEMENTING IN THE DIFFERENT AREAS. SO IT'S ABOUT BIDDING COMMUNITY TRUST, IN SOME CASES REBUILDING COMMUNITY TRUST. AS ROB SAID, IT'S ABOUT HOW DO YOU MEASURE THAT. HOW DO YOU KNOW WHEN A COMMUNITY FEELS SAFE? THAT'S WHAT THIS IS ABOUT. WHAT INITIATIVES SHOULD BE IMPLEMENTED WHERE THE COMMUNITY FEELS SAFE AND TRUSTS THE ENFORCEMENT THAT'S HAPPENING IN THEIR COMMUNITY.

>> Ifill: HOW DO YOU MEASURE THAT? IT'S AWFULLY HARD.

>> THAT'S ONE OF THE REASONS THAT WE HAVE THE CONSORTIUM OF RESEARCHERS WE HAVE AND THE PARTNERSHIP BETWEEN THE COMMUNITY AND LAW ENFORCEMENT TO BEGIN THE ASK THOSE QUESTIONS. HOW DO WE KNOW WHEN THERE'S TRUST, MISTRUST, OR HOW DO WE KNOW WHEN WE HAVE BUILT THAT PARTNERSHIP?

>> RONALD HAMPTON, IS THIS A NEW IDEA? IS THIS A NEW APPROACH, OR IS IT JUST SOMETHING THAT'S BEING REAPPLIED AGAIN BECAUSE OF THE LATEST INCIDENTS?

>> WELL, IT'S NOT NEW. POLICE DEPARTMENTS FOR SOME TIME, THOSE THAT ARE REALLY SERIOUS ABOUT DOING COMMUNITY POLICING AND HAVE DUG DOWN DEEP TO CHALLENGING THE CULTURE AND THE INSTITUTIONAL NATURE OF POLICING, HAVE BEGUN TO CHANGE IN TERMS OF HOW THEY MEASURE PERFORMANCE, HAVE CHANGED HOW THEY MEASURE CUSTOMER SATISFACTION. IN ORDER TO MEASURE CUSTOMER SATISFACTION, YOU HAVE TO ASK THE CUSTOMER. IF YOU ASK THE POLICE OFFICER, IS POLICING DOING WHAT IT'S SUPPOSED TO DO, OF COURSE THEY'RE GOING TO SAY YEAH BECAUSE THEY'RE DOING IT EVERY DAY. BUT THE REAL CUSTOMER, THE SITS, THE PERSON WHO LIVES IN THE COMMUNITY, THE BUSINESS PERSON ON THE CORNER, THEY'RE THE PERSON WHO ACTUALLY HAS TO BE ASKED AND BE A PART OF THE EVALUATION ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT THE PUBLIC SAFETY STRATEGY IS BEING USED. AND THAT IS NOT ALWAYS THE CASE, BUT IN COMMUNITY POLICING, THAT MUST BE A PART OF IT BECAUSE AT THE END OF THE DAY, IT'S THE CUSTOMER WHO RATES AND HAS TO BE SATISFIED WITH WHAT PUBLIC SAFETY LOOKS LIKE IN THEIR NEIGHBORHOOD. THAT COULD BE DIFFERENT DEMANDING ON THE NEIGHBORHOOD, THE CITY AS WELL AS THE STATE.

>> Ifill: TRACIE KEESEE, IT IS POSSIBLE, TAKE A STEP BACK FROM OUR NOSES TO THE GLASS I SUPPOSE, IS IT POSSIBLE TO HEAL A FRACTURE AFTER THE FACT IN THIS KIND OF CASE IN WHICH THERE ARE SO MANY PRECONCEPTIONS AND THERE'S SO MUCH DEFENSIVENESS AND BASIC MISUNDERSTANDING?

>> I THINK THAT'S GOING TO TAKE TIME. I THINK THAT IT IS POSSIBLE TO HEAL. THAT'S HOW YOU BUILD THAT TRUST. THE PROBLEM IS ONCE YOU SPEND THE RESOURCES NOT JUST IN THE COMMUNITY AND THE POLICE DEPARTMENT, TO MAKE AND BUILD THAT TRUST, THE QUESTION IS HOW QUICKLY IT CAN ERUPT AND BREAK AGAIN. SO FOR ME, BUILDING THAT RESKILLIAN SI ON THE GROUND TO MAKE -- RESILIENCY ON THE GROUND TO MAKE SURE WHEN THINGS HAPPEN THE TRUST IS NOT COMPLETELY BROKEN. IT CAN BE HEALED? IT CAN BE HEALED, BUT IT TAKES TIME. THIS IS SOMETHING THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN OVERNIGHT.

>> Ifill: RONALD HAMPTON, THERE ARE 18,000 POLICE DEPARTMENTS ACROSS THIS COUNTRY. IS THERE A CONSISTENT WAY OF BEING ABLE TO TART THIS PROCESS, OR WILL IT BE GROUND UP AND ADDRESSED AT EACH INDIVIDUAL PLACE?

>> IT'S GOING TO BE... SOME OF IT IS GOING TO BE GROUND UP BECAUSE THE POLICE DEPARTMENTS ARE GOING TO HAVE TO REACH OUT TO THE VERY PEOPLE THAT THEY SERVER EVERY DAY TO TALK TO THEM ABOUT HOW DO WE BUILD THAT RELATIONSHIP, WHO ARE THE COLLABORATIVE PARTNERS TO BE INVOLVED IN THE PROCESS TO MAKE IT WORK. THERE ARE SOME EXAMPLES. I'VE BEEN AROUND FOR AN AWFUL LONG TIME, AND IN MY DAY OF POLICING, I'VE SEEN... I REMEMBER IN PHILADELPHIA WHEN WILLIE WILLIAMS WAS THERE. THEY USED COMMUNITY POLICING AND THE MINI CITY HALL APPROACH WHERE THEY DECENTRALIZED THE POLICE DEPARTMENT, BUT THEY ALSO DECENTRALIZED GOVERNMENT, AND THEY HAD GOVERNMENT REPRESENTATIVES IN THE CITY HALLS. THEY DID IT IN NEWPORT NEWS. THEY SORT OF CAME UP WITH A COMMUNITY GOVERNANCE PROCESS WHERE GOVERNMENT AGAIN WAS DECENTRALIZED BECAUSE NOT EVERY PUBLIC SAFETY ISSUES IS FOUNDATIONALLY PUBLIC SAFETY. THERE ARE A WHOLE LOT OF OTHER FACTORS THAT COME INTO PLAY IN TERMS OF THE THINGS GOING ON IN OUR SOCIETY, WHETHER IT'S SOCIAL JUST -- JUSTICE, ECONOMIC ISSUES, HOUSING. ALL OF THOSE ISSUES COME INTO PLAY. IF A POLICE DEPARTMENT IS GOING TO BE SERIOUS ABOUT DOING COMMUNITY POLICING, THEY HAVE TO BE SERIOUS ABOUT ALSO WHAT THEY CAN AFFECT, WHAT THEY CAN'T AND WHO THEIR PARTNERS ARE GOING TO BE WHEN IT COMES TIME TO WORK ON THOSE ISSUES, BECAUSE PROBLEM SOLVING IS A PART OF COMMUNITY POLICING.

>> Ifill: SOUNDS LIKE BITING OFF AN AWFULLY BIG CHUNK, BUT PERHAPS THAT'S WHERE YOU START. TRACIE KEESEE, RONALD HAMPTON, THANK YOU VERY MUCH. NEXT WEEK WE'LL TALK THE COMMUNITY RESIDENTS AND NATIONAL LEADERS ABOUT ISSUES OF RACE, JUSTICE AND THE FUTURE. BE SURE TO JOIN US.

>> Woodruff: THE U.S. CENSUS BUREAU HAS BEEN RELEASING A LOT OF NEW DATA THIS WEEK ON INCOME, POVERTY AND ECONOMIC GROWTH. MUCH OF IT, UNFORTUNATELY, CONFIRMS AGAIN WHAT MANY AMERICANS ALREADY KNOW AND DEAL WITH ON A DAY TO DAY BASIS: REAL INCOMES ARE NOT MOVING UP APPRECIABLY. THE COUNTRY'S MEDIAN HOUSEHOLD INCOME IN 2013 WAS $51,939. UP $180 FROM THE YEAR BEFORE, BUT STILL BELOW WHERE IT WAS PRIOR TO THE GREAT RECESSION. THERE WAS SOME GOOD NEWS. THE OFFICIAL POVERTY RATE FELL SLIGHTLY TO 14.5%. AND IT WAS THE LARGEST DROP IN CHILD POVERTY IN A SINGLE YEAR SINCE THE SIXTIES. THE GROWTH IN FAMILY HOUSEHOLD INCOMES WAS ALSO BETTER THAN FOR HOUSEHOLDS WITH SINGLES OR ROOMMATES. SHELDON DANZIGER IS THE PRESIDENT OF THE RUSSELL SAGE FOUNDATION WHICH CLOSELY STUDIES THESE ISSUES. SHELDON DANZINGER, WELCOME TO THE "NEWSHOUR." LET ME START BY ASKING YOU, AS WE SAID, SOME GOOD NEWS ALONG WITH THE BAD NEWS. WHY DON'T YOU EXPLAIN THE GOOD NEWS FIRST.

>> WELL, THE GOOD NEWS IS THAT THE ECONOMY IS RECOVERING SLOWLY. AS YOU MENTIONED, POVERTY HAS DECLINED SOMEWHAT. THERE IS AN INCREASE IN THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WORKING FULL TIME FULL YEAR, AND CLEARLY THOSE ARE GOOD SIGNS. THE UNLIMIT RATE HAS -- THE UNEMPLOYMENT RATE HAS BEEN FALLING. BUT PROSPERITY IS NO LONGER WIDELY SHARED WHEN THE ECONOMY GROWS. AND SO THE TYPICAL FAMILY, WHETHER WE'RE TALKING ABOUT EARNINGS OF FULL-TIME WORKERS OR THE HOUSEHOLD INCOMES OF FAMILIES ARE NO BETTER THAN THEY WERE BEFORE THE RECESSION, AND IT'S BEEN ALMOST 15 YEARS WITH NOT MUCH PROGRESS FOR THE MIDDLE AND LOWER-INCOME GROUPS.

>> Woodruff: HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THAT LOOKING AT THIS THIS DATA?

>> WELL, THE ECONOMY FOR MANY YEARS HAS BEEN ONE IN WHICH GLOBALIZATION, TECHNOLOGICAL CHANGES, CHANGES IN POLICE OFFICER PRACTICES, CHAMBER OF COMMERCE -- CHANGES IN FINANCE HAVE MEANT THAT SOME PEOPLE IN THE ECONOMY, PARTICULARLY ELITES AND PROFESSIONALS AND PARTICULARLY FINANCE, HAVE DONE VERY WELL. BUT THE TYPICAL WORKER STRUGGLES TO GET A WAGE INCREASE THAT MATCHES INFLATION.

>> Woodruff: AND SO WHEN WE SEE THAT WAGES ARE JUST KEEPING UP WITH INFLATION, THAT THERE'S NOT EARNINGS GROWTH, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? ONE OF THE THINGS YOU SAID TO US WAS THAT YOU SAID PEOPLE FROM THE MIDDLE ON DOWN ARE THOSE WHO ARE DOING WORSE?

>> THAT'S RIGHT. SO EVEN IF IN THE CENSUS DATA, IF ONE LOOKS AT MEN WORKING FULL-TIME, FULL-YEAR AND ADJUSTED FOR INFLATION, INCOMES IN 2013 ARE NOT MUCH BETTER OFF THAN THEY WERE 15 OR EVEN 25 YEARS AGO. MANY WORKERS TOOK WAGE CUTS AND FURLOUGHS DURING THE RECESSION, AND THE GOOD NEWS IS THAT SOME OF THOSE WAGE CUTS HAVE BEEN RESTORED, AND MOST PEOPLE, AND THERE ARE NOT MANY PEOPLE ON FURLOUGHS ANYMORE, BUT WAGE INCREASES JUST ARE NOT VERY COMMON, AND GROWTH IS OFTEN CAPTURED AT THE VERY TOP OF THE INCOME DISTRIBUTION, AND THAT'S WHERE MOST OF THE GAINS SINCE THE RECESSION HAVE GONE.

>> Woodruff: WHEN YOU LOOK AT HOW UNEVEN THIS ECONOMIC RECOVERY IS, IS THERE AN EXPLANATION FOR THAT?

>> WELL, INEQUALITY HAS BEEN GROWING IN THE UNITED STATES SINCE THE LATE 1970s. THE GREAT RECESSION EXACERBATED THE SITUATION. IF YOU SORT OF THINK OF THE TYPICAL FAMILY, THE TYPICAL FAMILY HOLDS MOST OF ITS WEALTH IN TERMS OF ITS HOUSING EQUITY, AND WE KNOW THAT HOUSING PRICES, WHILE THEY ARE UP FROM THE LOWS OF THE RECESSION, ARE STILL BELOW THE PRERECESSION LEVEL. HIGHER-INCOME FAMILIES, PARTICULARLY THE ECONOMIC ELITE, HAVE HOUSING WEALTH, BUT THEY ALSO HAVE A LOT OF FINANCIAL WEALTH. AND THE STOCK MARKET IS REACHING ALL-TIME HIGHS, AND SO IF YOU HAVE WAGE CONSTANCY FOR THE MIDDLE ON DOWN AND YOU HAVE STOCK GAINS AND HIGH-INCOME GAINS AND BONUSES AT THE TOP, YOU GET RISING INEQUALITY IN A PERIOD OF ECONOMIC GROWTH.

>> Woodruff: ANOTHER THING I WAS STRUCK BY IS THAT YOU TOLD US, YOU SAID WE'RE LIVING IN AN ECONOMY WHERE A RISING TIDE NO LONGER LIFTS ALL BOATS.

>> THAT'S CORRECT. IN THE GREAT AMERICAN BOOM, WHICH LASTED FROM THE END OF WORLD WAR II TO THE EARLY '70s, EVERYONE, WHETHER IT WAS THE FACTORY WORKER, THE FACTORY MANAGER OR THE CORPORATION OWNER, DID VERY WELL. AND REAL INCOME, THAT IS INCOMES ADJUSTED FOR INFLATION, ACROSS THE DISTRIBUTION, ROSE RAPIDLY AND PRETTY MUCH IN UNISON. THAT WAS A PERIOD OF ROOMEDLY DECLINING POVERTY AND SLIGHTLY FALLING INEQUALITY. UNFORTUNATELY WE NOW LIVE IN A WORLD IN WHICH THE GLOBAL ECONOMY AND THE U.S. ECONOMY ARE VERY DIFFERENT.

>> SHELDON DANZINGER, PRESIDENT OF THE RUSSELL SAGE FOUNDATION, WE THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Woodruff: AGAIN, THE MAJOR DEVELOPMENTS OF THE DAY. SENATE APPROVED OBAMAS PLAN TO EQUIP SYRAIAN REBELS. AUSTRALIAN LEADERS SAID THEY'RE PURSUING THE RINGLEADER OF AN "ISLAMIC STATE" PLOT TO SEIZE AND BEHEAD SOMEONE AT RANDOM, IN SYDNEY. AND THE PEOPLE OF SCOTLAND VOTED ON WHETHER TO LEAVE THE UNITED KINGDOM AFTER 300 YEARS AND DECLARE INDEPENDENCE.

>> Ifill: ON THE NEWSHOUR ONLINE RIGHT NOW, IT'S A PROBLEM FACED BY COUNTLESS AMERICAN FAMILIES. WHAT TO DO WHEN A LOVED ONE CAN NO LONGER LIVE INDEPENDENTLY? WE CONTINUE OUR LONG-TERM CARE SERIES WITH A RESOURCE GUIDE ON WHERE TO START WHEN A RELATIVE NEEDS HELP. THAT'S ON OUR HEALTH PAGE. AND, IN HONOR OF SCOTLAND'S INDEPENDENCE VOTE TODAY: TEN THINGS YOU DIDN'T KNOW WERE SCOTTISH. FROM GOLDEN RETRIEVERS TO GRAND THEFT AUTO SEE THE COMPLETE LIST, ON OUR WORLD PAGE. ALL THAT AND MORE IS ON OUR WEB SITE, newshour.pbs.org.

>> Woodruff: AND THAT'S THE NEWSHOUR FOR TONIGHT. ON FRIDAY, MARGARET WARNER TALKS WITH IRAN'S FOREIGN MINISTER ABOUT THE ISLAMIC STATE AND NUCLEAR NEGOTIATIONS. I'M JUDY WOODRUFF.

>> Ifill: AND I'M GWEN IFILL. WE'LL SEE YOU ON-LINE, AND AGAIN HERE TOMORROW EVENING WITH DAVID BROOKS AND E.J. DIONNE. FOR ALL OF US HERE AT THE PBS NEWSHOUR, THANK YOU AND GOOD NIGHT.

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