PBS NewsHour; January 17, 2012 3:00pm-4:00pm PST

Captioning sponsored by MacNEIL/LEHRER PRODUCTIONS

>> Ifill: RESCUE TEAMS EXPLODED HOLES IN THE HULL OF THE GROUNDED COSTA CONCORDIA TODAY AS THE DEATH TOLL FROM THE SINKING CRUISE LINER CLIMBED TO 11. GOOD EVENING. I'M GWEN IFILL.

>> Woodruff: AND I'M JUDY WOODRUFF. ON THE NEWSHOUR TONIGHT, WE HAVE THE LATEST ON THE WRECKED SHIP WITH A REPORT FROM THE TUSCAN COAST BY MARTIN GEISSLER OF INDEPENDENT TELEVISION NEWS.

>> Ifill: THEN WE LOOK AT LAST NIGHT'S G.O.P. PRESIDENTIAL FACEOFF, AND TRACK THE INFLUENCE OF BIG MONEY IN THE 2012 CAMPAIGN.

>> Woodruff: WE DEBATE WALL STREET COMPENSATION AND BONUSES AT A TIME OF A SLUGGISH ECONOMIC RECOVERY.

>> Ifill: RAY SUAREZ EXAMINES WHY MAJOR WEB SITES ARE THREATENING A PROTEST BLACKOUT BEGINNING AT MIDNIGHT.

>> Woodruff: AND JEFFREY BROWN SITS DOWN WITH DIRECTOR ANGELINA JOLIE AND THE CAST OF THE NEW BOSNIAN WAR DRAMA, "IN THE LAND OF BLOOD AND HONEY."

>> BOSNIA JUST WAS ALWAYS RINGING IN MY MIND. WHAT WAS THAT? HOW DID THAT HAPPEN IN THE '90s? HOW DID THAT GO ON FOR FOUR YEARS WITH NOBODY DOING ANYTHING?

>> Ifill: THAT'S ALL AHEAD ON TONIGHT'S NEWSHOUR. MAJOR FUNDING FOR THE PBS NEWSHOUR HAS BEEN PROVIDED BY:

>> MOVING OUR ECONOMY FOR 160 YEARS. BNSF, THE ENGINE THAT CONNECTS US. AND BY THE ALFRED P. SLOAN FOUNDATION. SUPPORTING SCIENCE, TECHNOLOGY, AND IMPROVED ECONOMIC PERFORMANCE AND FINANCIAL LITERACY IN THE 21st CENTURY. AND WITH THE ONGOING SUPPORT OF THESE INSTITUTIONS AND FOUNDATIONS. AND... THIS PROGRAM WAS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE CORPORATION FOR PUBLIC BROADCASTING. AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU. THANK YOU.

>> Woodruff: SEARCH TEAMS IN ITALY FOUND MORE BODIES TODAY ON A PARTIALLY SUBMERGED CRUISE LINER. AT LEAST TWO DOZEN PEOPLE WERE STILL MISSING. IN ALL, SOME 4,200 PASSENGERS AND CREW WERE ON BOARD WHEN THE SHIP HIT A REEF FRIDAY NIGHT, THEN LISTED TO ONE SIDE AND SETTLED IN THE WATER. WE HAVE A REPORT ON THE DAY'S DEVELOPMENTS, FROM MARTIN GEISSLER OF INDEPENDENT TELEVISION NEWS.

>> Reporter: THE TIME FOR BEING DELICATE HAS PASSED. THE ITALIAN NAVY BLASTED THEIR WAY ON TO THE COSTA CONCORDIA TODAY, THE DIRECT ROUTE TO THE PARTS OF THE VESSEL THEY KNOW THEY NEED TO REACH. DIVERS WERE HEADING FOR THE FIRST OFFICER'S CABIN 30 FEET DOWN WHERE IT IS THOUGHT SEVERAL OF THOSE MISSING MAY BE. WITH EVERY PASSING HOUR THE URGENCY INCREASES. LOCKED MAGNETIC DOORS ARE BLOCKING THEIR WAY.

>> WE WILL INSPECT THEM WITH SEARCH CAMERAS THROUGH SMALL HOLE. THE SEARCH-AND-RESCUE CAMERA.

>> Reporter: TODAY THE DIVERS RECOVERED MORE BODIES ABOARD THE CONCORDIA. FOUR MEN AND ONE WOMAN, ALL THOUGHT TO BE IN THEIR 50s AND 60s. THESE NEW PICTURES SHOW THE CHAOS THAT UNFOLDED HERE ON FRIDAY NIGHT. FILMED IN INFRARED WE SEE PASSENGERS BALANCING ON THE SIDE OF THE SHIP, FORMING A CHAIN AND CLAM BER TO GO THE LIFE BOATS. JUST IMAGINE WHAT IT MUST HAVE BEEN LIKE FOR THEM IN THE DARK AND THE COLD AND THE PANIC. AND WHERE WAS THE CAPTAIN WHEN ALL THIS WAS HAPPENING? A PHONE CONVERSATION RECORDED BY THE PORT AUTHORITY WOULD SUGGEST HE WAS ALREADY ASHORE.

>> TELL ME IF THERE ARE CHILDREN, WOMEN, WHAT HELP THEY NEED. AND TELL ME THE NUMBER OF EACH OF THESE CATEGORIES. IS THAT CLEAR? PERHAPS YOU HAVE SAVED YOURSELF FROM THE SEA BUT I WILL MAKE YOU LOOK VERY BAD. TELL ME THE REASON WHY YOU'RE NOT GOING. I AM NOT GOING BECAUSE THERE WAS ANOTHER LIFE BOAT WHICH IS STUCK. YOU GET ON BOARD. THAT'S AN ORDER. YOU NEED TO CONTINUE THE RESCUE. YOU ORDERED AN EVACUATION. NOW I AM IN CHARGE. YOU NEED TO GET ON BOARD THE SHIP. IS THAT CLEAR? THERE ARE ALREADY BODIES, MOVE. HOW MANY DEAD ARE THERE? I DON'T KNOW. ONE THAT I'M AWARE OF. ONE THAT I'VE HEARD OF. YOU NEED TO TELL ME THIS. BUT YOU DO REALIZE IT IS SDARK AND WE CAN'T SEE ANYTHING. AND WHAT? DO YOU WANT TO GO BACK HOME? IT IS DARK AND YOU WANT TO GO BACK HOME? GET ON THE BOW OF THE SHIP. TELL ME WHAT CAN BE DONE. HOW MANY PEOPLE THERE ARE AND WHAT THEY NEED. NOW!

>> Reporter: TODAY THE CAPTAIN APPEARED BEFORE A PRELIMINARY JUDGE WHO WILL DECIDE IF AND WHEN HE WILL BE ARRESTED AND ON WHAT CHARGE. UP CLOSE, YOU GET A REAL SENSE OF THE SIZE OF THIS VESSEL AND THE SCALE OF THE PROBLEM. THE MASS ABOVE DECK HAS NOTHING COMPARED TO THE CHAOS BENEATH THE WATER LINE. AT LEAST AFTER A DAY OF WAITING THE SEARCH IS BACK UNDERWAY. THE PAST 24 HOURS HAVE BEEN A MASSIVE SETBACK FOR THE RESCUE TEAMS BUT THE FORECAST FROM HERE IS GOOD. NATURE, IT SEEMS, HAS COME BACK SIGHT. THE CHANCES OF FINDING SURVIVORS NOW ARE EXTREMELY SLIM. BUT AS SOMEONE AT THE CENTER OF THE OPERATION PUT IT, HOPE IS THE LAST THING TO DIE. THE AUTHORITIES ARE ALREADY DISCUSSING WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE COSTA CONCORDIA. FOR NOW THIS TINY TOURIST ISLAND HAS A MONSTEROUS NEW LANDMARK. UNWELCOME BUT UNMISSABLE AND UNMOVABLE FOR MONTHS AT LEAST.

>> Woodruff: LATE TODAY, A DEFENSE LAWYER SAID THE CRUISE SHIP CAPTAIN WILL BE RELEASED FROM JAIL AND PLACED UNDER HOUSE ARREST, PENDING ANY FORMAL CHARGES.

>> Ifill: STILL TO COME ON THE NEWSHOUR, G.O.P. PRESIDENTIAL HOPEFULS SQUARE OFF IN SOUTH CAROLINA; BIG MONEY IN THE 2012 CAMPAIGN; EXECUTIVE COMPENSATION IN A SLUGGISH RECOVERY; THE "STOP ONLINE PIRACY ACT"; AND "IN THE LAND OF BLOOD AND HONEY." BUT FIRST, WITH THE OTHER NEWS OF THE DAY, HERE'S HARI SREENIVASAN.

>> Sreenivasan: PRESIDENT OBAMA POINTED TO "SUBSTANTIAL PROGRESS" TODAY IN LISTENING TO PRIVATE SECTOR IDEAS ON THE ECONOMY. HE MET WITH HIS JOBS COUNCIL-- MADE UP OF BUSINESS LEADERS-- AND HE TOUTED THE GROUP'S ADVICE ON STREAMLINING GOVERNMENT.

>> EVERYONE OF THE AGENCIES IN THIS GOVERNMENT HAS BUN FOCUSED ON HOW DO THEY IMPROVE, GET SMARTER, GET BETTER, GET FASTER? I BELIEVE THAT WE'VE MADE GENUINE PROGRESS ON ALL THESE FRONTS. WE WOULD NOT HAVE MADE THIS PROGRESS WITHOUT THIS JOBS COUNCIL. I THINK IT WILL PAY OFF IN TERMS OF SOLIDIFYING THIS RECOVERY AND ALLOWING US TO MOVE FORWARD IN A WAY WHERE IT ACTUALLY TRANSLATES INTO JOBS.

>> Sreenivasan: STOCKS STARTED THE WEEK THE MODEST GAINS. THE NASDAQ ROSE 17 POINTS TO CLOSE AT 2728. OPPONENTS OF WISCONSIN GOVERNOR SCOTT WALKER TURNED IN MORE THAN ONE MILLION SIGNATURES TODAY TO FORCE A RECALL ELECTION. THAT WAS NEARLY TWICE THE NUMBER REQUIRED BY STATE LAW. THE DRIVE BEGAN AFTER THE REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR PUSHED THROUGH A LAW THAT ENDED COLLECTIVE BARGAINING RIGHTS FOR MOST PUBLIC EMPLOYEES. THE SIGNATURES HAVE TO BE VALIDATED BEFORE AN ELECTION CAN BE SCHEDULED. IN HAITI, AT LEAST 23 PEOPLE WERE KILLED WHEN A TRUCK HAULING EARTHQUAKE RUBBLE CRASHED. MORE THAN 50 OTHERS WERE INJURED. IT HAPPENED ON ONE OF THE BUSIEST STREETS IN PORT-AU- PRINCE, THE HAITIAN CAPITAL. POLICE SAID THE DRIVER LOST CONTROL IN A HILLY AREA, POSSIBLY AFTER THE BRAKES FAILED. THE QUAKE, TWO YEARS AGO, KILLED MORE THAN 300,000 PEOPLE. SCIENTISTS IN BRITAIN HAVE FOUND MORE THAN 300 FOSSILS COLLECTED BY CHARLES DARWIN AND HIS COLLEAGUES, WHO DEVELOPED THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION. THE FOSSILIZED WOOD AND PLANTS WERE ON GLASS SLIDES, LEFT IN AN OLD CABINET AT THE BRITISH GEOLOGICAL SURVEY IN LONDON. A FEW, LIKE THIS ONE, BEAR DARWIN'S NAME. HE FOUND THEM ON HIS FAMOUS VOYAGE OF DISCOVERY ON THE H.M.S. "BEAGLE" IN THE 1830s. MOST OF THE SPECIMENS WERE COLLECTED BY DARWIN'S CLOSE FRIEND, JOSEPH HOOKER, ON HIS ROUND-THE-WORLD EXCURSIONS IN THE 1840s. THOSE ARE SOME OF THE DAY'S MAJOR STORIES. NOW, BACK TO GWEN.

>> Ifill: THE FIVE REMAINING REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES WERE BACK ON THE TRAIL IN SOUTH CAROLINA TODAY, FOLLOWING LAST NIGHT'S RAUCOUS DEBATE. MITT ROMNEY MAY HAVE BEEN EVERYONE'S FAVORITE TARGET LAST NIGHT IN MYRTLE BEACH BUT BY THE TIME HE RETURNED TO THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL THIS MORNING, HIS FOCUS WAS ELSEWHERE.

>> THE PRESIDENT SAYS HE WANTS TO FUNDAMENTALLY TRANSFORM AMERICA. I DON'T WANT TO TRANSFORM AMERICA. INTO SOMETHING WE WOULDN'T RECOGNIZE. I WANT TO RESTORE TO AMERICA THE PRINCIPLES THAT MADE US THE GREAT NATION WE'VE BEEN.

>> Ifill: ACCORDING TO THE LATEST "WASHINGTON POST" ABC NEWS NATIONAL POLL, ROMNEY IS LEADING ALL COMERS 2 TO 1. BUT HIS CLOSEST CHALLENGER FORMER HOUSE SPEAKER NEWT GINGRICH TOLD SUPPORTERS AT A SEPARATE CAMPAIGN STOP TODAY THAT ROMNEY IS NOT CONSERVATIVE ENOUGH TO TAKE ON THE PRESIDENT.

>> LOOK AT THE POLLING. I'M THE ONLY CONSERVATIVE WHO REALISTICALLY HAS A CHANCE TO BE THE NOMINEE. ANY VOTE FOR SANTORUM OR PERRY IN EFFECT IS A VOTE TO ALLOW ROMNEY TO BECOME THE NOMINEE. BECAUSE WE'VE GOT TO BRING CONSERVATIVES TOGETHER IN ORDER TO STOP IT.

>> Ifill: RICK SANTORUM, MAKING HIS OWN BID FOR SOUTH CAROLINA'S CONSERVATIVES AND EVANGELICALS IS ALSO MAKING THAT COMPARISON IN THIS NEW TELEVISION AD.

>> WHY WOULD WE EVER VOTE FOR SOMEONE WHO IS JUST LIKE OBAMA WHEN WE CAN UNITE AROUND RICK SANTORUM? AND BEAT OBAMA?

>> Ifill: THE GROWING INTENSITY WAS ON DISPLAY LAST NIGHT IN THE DEBATE SPONSORD BY FOX NEWS AND THE WALL STREET JOURNAL WHICH WAS PUNCTUATEDED WITH AUDIENCE CHEERS AND JEERS. TEXAS GOVERNOR RICK PERRY WON THE CROWD OVER BY DEFENDING STATE'S RIGHTS.

>> I AM SAYING ALSO THAT SOUTH CAROLINA IS AT WAR WITH THIS FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND WITH THIS ADMINISTRATION. ( CHEERS AND APPLAUSE )

>> Ifill: AND MODERATOR JUAN WILLIAMS WAS BOOED WHEN HE ASKED GINGRICH IF COMMENTS HE MADE CRITICIZING THE PRESIDENT COULD BE CONSIDERED RACIALLY INSENSITIVE.

>> WE SAW SOME OF THIS DURING YOUR VISIT TO A BLACK CHURCH IN SOUTH CAROLINA WHERE A WOMAN ASKED YOU WHY YOU REFER TO PRESIDENT OBAMA AS THE FOOD STAMP PRESIDENT. IT SOUNDS AS IF YOU ARE SEEKING TO BELITTLE PEOPLE. (CROWD BOOING)

>> FIRST OF ALL, JUAN, THE FACT IS THAT MORE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN PUT ON FOOD STAMPS BY BARACK OBAMA THAN ANY PRESIDENT IN AMERICAN HISTORY. ( CHEERS AND APPLAUSE )

>> Ifill: TEXAS CONGRESSMAN RON PAUL WAS DROWNED OUT WHEN HE MADE THE CASE FOR A LESS INTERVENTIONIST FOREIGN POLICY.

>> I WOULD SAY THAT MAYBE WE OUGHT TO CONSIDER A GOLDEN RULE IN FOREIGN POLICY. DON'T DO TO OTHER NATIONS (CROWD BOOING) WHAT WE DON'T WANT TO HAVE THEM DO TO US.

>> Ifill: ROMNEY CAME UNDER PARTICULAR FIRE ON MONEY ISSUES. WHEN PRESSED HE SAID HE MAY RELEASE HIS INCOME TAX RETURNS IN APRIL. HE TOLD REPORTERS THAT WOULD SHOW HE PAYS CLOSE TO 15% OF HIS INCOME IN TAXES. MUCH OF THE CAMPAIGN'S SHARPEST CRITICISM HAVE COME NOT FROM THE CANDIDATES THEMSELVES BUT FROM INDEPENDENT POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEES CALLED SUPER PACs. ALL FIVE REMAINING CANDIDATES ARE GETTING HELP FROM FREE- SPENDING OUTSIDE GROUP AND SOME ARE CHAFING AT THE ATTACKS THEY'VE LAUNCHED. THE PRO ROMNEY PAC RESTORE OUR FUTURE FALSELY ACCUSED SAN SANTORUM OF SUPPORTING A BILL THAT WOULD ALLOW FELONS TO VOTE FROM PRISON.

>> I DID NOT HAVE A SUPER PAC RUN ADS AGAINST YOU. THAT IS SOMETHING COMPLETELY OUT OF THE CONTROL OF CANDIDATES. ONE OF THE THINGS I DECRY IN THE CURRENT FINANCIAL SYSTEM THAT GETS BEHIND CAMPAIGNS IS THAT WE HAVE THESE VOTING REQUIREMENTS THAT PUT THESE SUPER PACs IN POWER THAT SAY THINGS WE DISAGREE WITH.

>> WHAT HE'S SAYING IS THAT THE AD THAT SAYS THAT I SAID THAT I VOTED TO ALLOW FELONS TO VOTE IS INACCURATE. IT IS INACCURATE. IF I HAD SOMETHING OF A SUPER PAC THAT WAS SUPPORTING ME THAT WAS INACCURATE I WOULD GO OUT AND SAY STOP IT. YOU'RE REPRESENTING ME AND YOU'RE REPRESENTING MY CAMPAIGN. ( CHEERS AND APPLAUSE ) STOP IT.

>> Ifill: AND GINGRICH WHO DROPPED IN THE POLLS AFTER THE SAME PAC AIRED ADS ATTACKING HIM IN IOWA SAID THE ROMNEY GROUP TWISTED HIS RECORD ON ABORTION.

>> THIS IS TYPICAL OF WHAT BOTH SENATOR SANTORUM AND I HAVE COMPLAINED ABOUT WITH ROMNEY'S SUPER PAC OVER WHICH HE APPARENTLY HAS NO INFLUENCE WHICH MAKES YOU WONDER HOW MUCH INFLUENCE HE WOULD HAVE IF HE WERE PRESIDENT. (CROWD CHEERING).

>> SPEAKER GINGRICH I SAID AT OUR LAST DEBATE THAT ANYTHING THAT IS FALSE IN PAC ADS, WHETHER THEY'RE SUPPORTIVE OF ME OR SUPPORTIVE OF YOU, SHOULD BE TAKEN OFF THE AIR AND FIXED. I'VE ALREADY SAID THAT. BUT IF WE'RE TALKING ABOUT SUPER PAC ADS THAT ARE INACCURATE, MR. SPEAKER, YOU HAVE A SUPER PAC AD THAT ATTACKS ME. JUST HOLD ON. IT ATTACKS ME. IT'S PROBABLY THE BIGGEST HOAX SINCE BIG FOOT. THE PEOPLE HAVE LOOKED AT IT.

>> Ifill: ROMNEY ENDED THAT EXCHANGE BY SAYING HE HOPES SUPER PACs WHICH ARE NOT ALLOWED TO DIRECTLY COORDINATE WITH CANDIDATES WOULD DISAPPEAR. ROMNEY ONCE RAISED MONEY FOR THE GROUP AND SAID TODAY THEY OPERATE WITHIN THE LAW.

>> THE LAW AS IT EXISTS TODAY ESTABLISHES THESE. I WISH THAT LAW WERE NOT AS IT IS. I WISH WE COULD JUST RAISE MONEY FOR OUR CAMPAIGNS INSTEAD OF HAVING TO CREATE SUPER PACS.

>> Ifill: THE CAMPAIGN FINANCE DEBATE HAS SPILLED OVER INTO LATE NIGHT COMEDY. HUMOROUS STEVEN COLBERT FORMED HIS OWN SUPER PAC AND PROMPTLY ESTABLISHED AN ARM'S LENGTH RELATIONSHIP WITH IT BY HANDING OVER THE REINS TO JON STEWART. SUPER PACs CAME INTO BEING TWO YEARS AGO SUPER PACS CAME INTO BEING TWO YEARS AGO WHEN THE SUPREME COURT RULED THAT OUTSIDE GROUPS COULD RAISE UNLIMITED SUMS FOR CAMPAIGNS. THEY HAVE SINCE CHANGED THE FACE OF CAMPAIGN FINANCE. THIS ELECTION CYCLE, THE COMMITTEES HAVE ALREADY SPENT $26 MILLION-- HALF OF IT IN JUST THE LAST TWO WEEKS, AS THE CAMPAIGN PICKED UP SPEED IN IOWA, NEW HAMPSHIRE, AND ESPECIALLY SOUTH CAROLINA. ACCORDING TO TOTALS COMPILED BY THE CENTER FOR PUBLIC INTEGRITY, PRO-ROMNEY GROUPS HAVE LED THE WAY, SPENDING $9 MILLION, MOSTLY ON TELEVISION ADS. PRO-GINGRICH GROUPS HAVE SPENT NEARLY $4.5 MILLION, AND ANOTHER COMMITTEE SUPPORTING RICK PERRY HAS SPENT NEARLY $4 MILLION, BUT LITTLE OF IT SINCE JANUARY 1. GROUPS BACKING RON PAUL HAVE SPENT MORE THAN $3 MILLION, AND PRO-SANTORUM FORCES HAVE SPENT $1.7 MILLION. FOR MORE ON THE SUPERPAC PHENOMENON, WE'RE JOINED BY JOHN DUNBAR, MANAGING EDITOR OF THE CENTER FOR PUBLIC INTEGRITY, WHICH HAS BEEN TRACKING THE SPENDING. AND ATTORNEY ROBERT KELNER OF THE COVINGTON AND BURLING LAW FIRM. HE ADVISES SUPER PACS AND LARGE CAMPAIGN DONORS. HOW MUCH... I JUST SAID THIS HAS CHANGED THE LANDSCAPE. LOOKING AT THE NUMBERS YOU'VE COME PEOPLED, JOHN DUNBAR, HAS IT?

>> IT CERTAINLY CHANGED THE LANDSCAPE. IT'S CHANGED THE DEBATE. IT'S CHANGED THE TONE OF THE DEBATE. IF YOU LOOK AT THE TWO BIG SUPER PAC CONTROVERSIES, THE FIRST IS THE NEGATIVE ATTACKS ON GINGRICH IN IOWA. THERE'S NO QUESTION THAT THAT HAD AN IMPACT IN IOWA. WHETHER IT WAS INCREASED COVERAGE OF GINGRICH'S RECORD OR THE SUPER PAC'S, EITHER WAY, IT MAY HAVE HAD AN AMPLIFYING EFFECT. REPORTERS STARTED COVERING WHAT WAS CLAIMED IN THE SUPER PAC AD. IT ALSO ALLOWED ROMNEY TO STAY ABOVE THE FRAY. THE SUPER PAC DID THE DIRTY WORK.

>> Ifill: HOW DIFFERENT IS THIS THAN LAST TIME OR ANY OTHER CYCLES WE'VE SEEN IN THE PAST?

>> I DON'T THINK IT'S REALLY AS DIFFERENT AS MANY PEOPLE HAVE SUGGESTED, GWEN, BECAUSE WE'VE ALWAYS HAD OUTSIDE GROUPS RAISING LARGE AMOUNTS OF MONEY FROM WEALTHY DONORS TO BUY ADVERTISING TIME. ONE DIFFERENCE NOW, AFTER THE SUPREME COURT'S DECISION IN THE CITIZENS UNITED CASE, IS THAT A GOOD BIT OF THAT MONEY IS PUBLICLY DISCLOSED BECAUSE IT'S THROUGH THESE SO-CALLED SUPER PACs THAT ARE REQUIRED TO DISCLOSE THEIR SPENDING BUT THERE'S A LOT OF OTHER SPENDING THAT IS UNDISCLOSED, THAT IS UNDER THE RADAR LINE THAT HAS ALWAYS EXISTED THAT STILL EXISTS TODAY. SO SOME EXTENT I THINK THE FOCUS ON SUPER PACs IS BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT WE CAN SEE.

>> Ifill: BUT WE CAN SEE WHAT THEY'RE SPENDING IT ON. CAN WE SEE WHO IS SPENDING IT? WHO IS BEHIND THESE?

>> WELL, WE WILL FIND OUT ON JANUARY 31 WHO IS BEHIND THESE SUPER PACs BECAUSE THERE ARE DISCLOSURE REQUIREMENTS. UNFORTUNATELY BY JANUARY 31 THE RACE FOR REPUBLICAN NOMINATION MIGHT BE OVER. BUT, YOU KNOW, IN ADDITION TO THE AMOUNT OF MONEY THAT'S OUT THERE THAT WE DON'T KNOW ABOUT, THE SUPER PAC MONEY IS IMPORTANT BECAUSE IT ALLOWS FOR SOMETHING CALLED EXPRESS ADVOCACY WHICH MEANS THAT IT'S A VERY... IT'S THE MOST AGGRESSIVE KIND OF POLITICAL SPEECH. YOU CAN GO OUT AND SAY, "VOTE AGAINST OR VOTE FOR THIS PERSON" AS OPPOSED TO SOME OF THE OTHER KINDS OF MONEY WHICH YOU CAN REMEMBER THE 527 GROUPS ORGANIZATIONS LIKE THAT WHICH WOULD DO ISSUE ADS WHICH WERE SORT OF VERY VAGUE.

>> Ifill: WE KNEW WHO THE 527 GROUPS WERE SUPPORTING, DIDN'T WE ANYWAY?

>> WE DID EVENTUALLY AND THE I.R.S. STARTED REQUIRING SOME DISCLOSURE. ON THE DISCLOSURE SIDE WE WILL FIND OUT WHO IS BEHIND THE SUPER PACs. FORTUNATELY FOR PEOPLE WHO WANT TO KNOW WHO IS SPENDING ALL ITS MONEY, ALL THE PRESIDENTIAL SUPER PACs HAVE BEEN SUPER PACs HAVE NOT BEEN NONPROFITS. WE'RE NOT GOING TO HAVE THAT SAME ISSUE WITH THE NONPROFIT GROUPS WHICH CAN ALSO MAKE THESE SAME KINDS OF ADS BUT THEY DON'T HAVE TO DISCLOSE THEIR DONOR.

>> Ifill: FOR INSTANCE?

>> MORE LIKE WHAT THEY CALL SOCIAL WELFARE ORGANIZATIONS. THESE ARE 501 C-4s. THE BEST KNOWN IS THE CROSS ROADS G.P.S. IS A C-4.

>> Ifill: DOES IT MATTER WHETHER WE KNOW WHO THESE PEOPLE ARE WHO ARE WRITING THE CHECKS? WE KNOW THAT NEWT GINGRICH'S CAMPAIGN WAS FOUNDERING. HE GOT A $5 MILLION INFUSION FROM A CASINO MOWING YOU WILL WHICH IS THE TERM THEY USE. WE HAVE HEARD ABOUT JON HUNTSMAN'S FATHER POURING MONEY INTO HIS TO NO GREAT AVAIL IN THE LONG RUN. DOES IT MATTER? WE KNOW MITT ROMNEY'S OUTSIDE MAJOR SUPER PAC IS BEING RUN BY FORMER AIDES OF HIS. HE'S ACTUALLY RAISED MONEY FOR IT. DOES THAT COUNT?

>> I DON'T THINK IT MATTERS THAT MUCH. MY VIEW IS THE MORE THINGS CHANGE THE MORE THEY STAY THE SAME IN CAMPAIGN FINANCE. WE'VE ALWAYS KNOWN THERE WERE BIG DONORS BEHIND CANDIDATES. WE'VE GENERALLY KNOWN WHO THEY WERE. THEY USED TO BE CALLED BUNDLERS. THEY'RE STILL CALLED BUNDLERS IN SOME RESPECTS. IT REMAINS THE CASE THAT THERE'S A HUGE AMOUNT OF ACTIVITY THAT TAKES PLACE OUTSIDE THE PUBLIC EYE UNDER THE RADAR LINE. THAT'S AS TRUE THIS ELECTION CYCLE AS IT WAS IN THE PAST.

>> Ifill: EXPLAIN WHAT YOU MEAN BY THAT. IS THE SAME POT OF MONEY THAT IS JUST MOVING INTO A DIFFERENT DEFINITION?

>> I THINK THAT'S ABOUT IT. I THINK WHAT WE SEE HAPPENING IS THESE SUPER PACs ARE VERY MUCH A FOCUS OF PUBLIC ATTENTION. THEY'RE VERY MUCH IN THE PUBLIC EYE. THEY DISCLOSE THEIR DONORS. THEN THERE ARE ALL THESE GROUPS THAT JOHN WAS REFERRING TO, 501-C-4s ORGANIZATIONS, OTHER KINDS OF SPECIALIZED VEHICLES THAT ARE NOT REQUIRED TO DISCLOSE THEIR DONERS AND THEY DO A LOT OF THE NON-BROADCAST ACTIVITIES, THE SO-CALLED GROUND WAR ACTIVITIES. IN SOME WAY SOME OF THE REAL NUTS AND BOLTS OF THE POLITICAL PROCESS. IT'S LARGELY INVIS TOIBL THE MEDIA AND TO THE PUBLIC.

>> Ifill: ARE CAMPAIGNS THEN SPENDING THEIR MONEY DIFFERENTLY IN SPENDING MORE ON TELEVISION? MORE ON THESE INVISIBLE DIRECT MAIL THINGS WE DON'T SEE?

>> APPARENTLY THEY'RE SPENDING I DON'T KNOW IF THEY'RE SPENDING MORE ON THE ADS. ELECTION CYCLE IT'S HARD TO SAY BECAUSE THEY JUST KEEP GETTING SO MUCH MORE EXPENSIVE. IT'S ALMOST LIKE YOU HAVE TO DECIDE ON INFLATION BUT THE SUPER PACs ARE DEFINITELY SPENDING MORE ON ADVERTISING THAN THE CAMPAIGNS OR THE CANDIDATES THEMSELVES.

>> Ifill: THIS IS NOT EXCLUSIVE TO REPUBLICAN CAMPAIGNS, IS IT?

>> WELL, THIS IS THE FIRST REPUBLICAN PRIMARY THAT WE'VE HAD UNDER THE CITIZENS UNITED SPEECH NOW REGULATORY REGIME. WE DID GET MID-TERM ELECTIONS WHICH WE GOT TO SEE HOW THIS WAS GOING TO SHAKE OUT BUT THIS IS THE FIRST TIME THAT WE HAVE ACTUALLY SEEN A PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION OCCUR....

>> Ifill: BUT THERE'S A DEMOCRATIC PAC SUPPORTING PRESIDENT OBAMA, RIGHT?

>> ABSOLUTELY. THEY'VE ALREADY RUN SOME ADS AGAINST MITT ROMNEY WHICH MADE NEWS BECAUSE THEY SEEMED TO MAKE THE PICK OF THE REPUBLICAN NOMINEE.

>> Ifill: THAT'S WHO THEY'VE CHOSEN TO PICK THE FIGHT WITH. WE SAW A PEW STUDY TODAY THAT SHOWED MORE THAN HALF OF AMERICANS ARE AWARE NOW OF CAMPAIGN FINANCE. USUALLY NOT A VERY ACCESSIBLE TOPIC. ALL OF A SUDDEN THEY'RE AWARE OF THIS. MOST OF THE PEOPLE, TWO-THIRDS OF THOSE PEOPLE THINK IT'S A NECK TIFF. IS THIS A NEGATIVE IN.

>> THE SUPER PACs ARE A POSITIVE BECAUSE THEY ACTUALLY INCREASE THE DISCLOSURE IN THE SYSTEM. I DON'T THINK MOST AMERICANS APPRECIATE THAT. I THINK IF YOU DID A POLL TO FIGURE OUT HOW MANY PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THAT SUPER PACs HAVE TO IDENTIFY YOUR DONORS, YOU WOULD FIND MOST PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT. IT'S A NET-PLUS TO THE SYSTEM IF YOU BELIEVE IN DISCLOSURE.

>> Ifill: IS IT A NET-PLUS?

>> IF YOU THINK... IF YOU BELIEVE THAT UNLIMITED AMOUNTS OF MONEY BY INDIVIDUALS, CORPORATIONS AND LABOR UNIONS THAT ARE ACTUALLY NOT DISCLOSED BY THE TIME YOU GO TO THE POLLS ARE A GOOD IDEA, THEN IT'S A PLUS.

>> Ifill: WELL, A LOT OF PEOPLE WOULD SAY THAT THAT IT IS A PLUS THEN. YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE TIMING OF THE DISCLOSURES?

>> NOT JUST THE TIMING BUT ALSO THE FACT THAT YOU HAVE TO TAKE THESE... THERE WERE TWO COURT DECISIONS AND YOU HAVE TO TAKE THEM TOGETHER. COMBINED WHAT THEY DID WAS ALLOW FOR UNLIMITED CORPORATE CONTRIBUTIONS TO A GROUP, IN THIS CASE A NONPROFIT, IF YOU WILL, THAT CAN MAKE THESE EXPENDITURES. YOU'LL NEVER FIND OUT WHO MADE THE DONATIONS TO THE NONPROFIT. WE HAVEN'T SEEN THAT YET IN A PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN. THEY HAVEN'T SEEN ANY NON-PROVE IS FORM. IT HAS BEEN ALL SUPER PACs. EVEN THE DONATIONS TO THE SUPER PACs THEMSELVES AREN'T NECESSARILY CLEAR. THEY CAN BE SHELL CORPORATIONS LIKE FOR INSTANCE THERE WAS ONE TO RESTORE OUR FUTURE THAT WAS FROM A BAIN EXECUTIVE. EVEN THE MONEY COMING WHEN IT'S DISCLOSED ISN'T NECESSARILY....

>> Ifill: IS THERE A TRICKLE- DOWN EFFECT. THAT IS TO SAY WE'RE PAYING ATTENTION TO THE PRESIDENTIAL RACE AS WELL BUT THIS WOULD AFFECT OTHER FEDERAL CAMPAIGNS AS WELL.

>> NOT JUST FEDERAL BUT STATE AND LOCAL. YOU'LL BE SUPER PACs AT EVERY LEVEL, FEDERAL, STATE, LOCAL, GUBERNATORIAL RACES, JUDICIAL RACES ON BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE. THIS IS A PRETTY DRAMATIC PHENOMENON. AS I SAID IT'S ACTUALLY GOING TO CREATE MUCH BROADER DISCLOSURE OF POLITICAL ACTIVITY THAN WE'VE HAD IN PREVIOUS CYCLES.

>> Ifill: IS IT GOING TO CREATE A LOT MORE NEGATIVITY SINCE WE HAVE SEEN SOME OF THE WAYS IN WHICH THIS MONEY HAS BEEN USED TO DO THE DIRTY WORK FOR CAMPAIGNS WHO NO LONGER HAVE TO DO IT THEMSELVESS?

>> NOT NECESSARILY. ACCORDING TO THE NUMBERS SO FAR, YOU KNOW, THE RESTORE OUR FUTURE WAS VERY NEGATIVE. MAYBE 100,000 OUT OF EIGHT MILLION PLUS HAS GONE TO PRO ROMNEY ADS.

>> Ifill: THAT'S WHAT I MEAN, I GUESS.

>> I THINK IN EVERY ELECTION CYCLE WE HEAR THERE'S A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT NEGATIVE ADVERTISING AND NEGATIVITY. EACH TIME THERE'S A DIFFERENT EXPLANATION FOR IT, I THINK THE SUPER PACs ARE RUNNING NEGATIVE ADS. BUT YOU WOULD HAVE SEEN THOSE ADS FROM NON-SUPER PAC ENTITIES AS WELL. IT HAS MORE TO DO WITH THE POLITICS THAN IT DOES WITH THE CAMPAIGN FINANCE SYSTEM.

>> Ifill: ROBERT KELNER AND JOHN DAN BAR, THANK YOU BOTH VERY MUCH.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Woodruff: NOW, TO THE CONTINUING ANGER OVER WALL STREET PAY IN LIGHT OF THE SLOW ECONOMIC RECOVERY. IT'S AN ISSUE THAT HAS OFTEN BEEN FRONT AND CENTER SINCE THE GOVERNMENT BAILED OUT BIG BANKS AND OTHER FIRMS IN 2008 AND 2009. IT'S ALSO HELPED FUEL SOME OF THE OCCUPY PROTESTS IN NEW YORK AND AROUND THE COUNTRY. TODAY MORE THAN 500 MEMBERS OF THE OCCUPY MOVEMENT TOOK THEIR MESSAGES TO CAPITOL HILL, WHERE THEY RAISED QUESTIONS AGAIN ABOUT THE ROLE OF CORPORATIONS AND INEQUALITY. HERE'S SOME OF WHAT THEY TOLD US. THESE PROTESTERS ONLY PROVIDED THEIR FIRST NAMES.

>> WE HAVE TO COME UP WITH DIFFERENT WAYS OF CREATING A SYSTEM AND A MECHANISM THAT WILL ALLOW PEOPLE TO PUT FORWARD THEIR BEST WORK AND TO HAVE IT REPRESENTED FAIRLY. AS SOON AS THE PEOPLE IN THE CONGRESS START HEARING THAT MESSAGE FROM THE PEOPLE, UNTIL THEIR VOICES GET LOUDER AND LOUDER AND THEY CANNOT IGNORE IT, THEN THEY WILL GET IT.

>> I HAVE BEEN ACTIVE IN CAUSES IN YEARS PAST. I HAD GIVEN UP ON ANY SUBSTANTIAL CHANGE IN THIS COUNTRY UNTIL THE OCCUPATION. NOTHING LIKE THIS HAS HAPPENED BEFORE. THEY SAID THE FIRST COLD NIGHT WE'D BE GONE. THEY SAID WE WOULDN'T LAST MORE THAN A WEEK. THREE-AND-A-HALF, ALMOST FOUR MONTHS LATER, HERE WE ARE. WE'RE NOT GOING ANYWHERE. I HAVE NEVER MET A GROUP OF MORE COMMITTED, DEAD I CANED PEOPLE FIGHTING FOR REAL CHANGE.

>> Woodruff: THIS ALL COMES AS WALL STREET FIRMS ARE IN THE MIDST OF BONUS SEASON. BONUSES ARE REPORTEDLY LOWER THIS YEAR-- PERHAPS AS MUCH AS 30% LOWER, IN SOME CASES. TODAY THE "WALL STREET JOURNAL" AND THE FINANCIAL TIMES BOTH REPORTED THAT MORGAN STANLEY WOULD LIMIT ITS CASH BONUSES TO $125,000 AND DEFER SOME COMPENSATION TO 2012. WE LOOK AT THIS WITH WILLIAM COHAN, AUTHOR OF "HOUSE OF CARDS," A BOOK ABOUT THE COLLAPSE OF BEAR STEARNS. HE ONCE WORKED AS A MANAGING DIRECTOR AT J.P. MORGAN CHASE. AND BRIAN FOLEY, A COMPENSATION CONSULTANT WHO WORKS WITH FORTUNE 500 FIRMS INCLUDING INVESTMENT BANKS. FOR THE RECORD, WE CALLED THE INDUSTRY'S TRADE GROUP, BUT THEY DECLINED OUR INVITATION. GENTLEMEN, WELCOME TO YOU BOTH. WILLIAM COHEN, TO YOU FIRST. THESE EARL YES REPORTS THAT BONUSES ARE DROPPING, HOW WIDESPREAD IS THIS? AND WHY DO YOU THINK IT'S HAPPENING?

>> WELL, I THINK IT'S VERY WIDESPREAD, JUDY. WHEN YOU HAVE AN INDUSTRY LEADER LIKE MORGAN STANLEY CAPPING OUT THEIR WHAT SEEMS TO MOST PEOPLE LIKE A LOT OF MONEY BUT TO WALL STREET TYPES UNFORTUNATELY NOT, CAPPING OUT THEIR CASH PAY AT $125,000, THAT BECOMES AN INDUSTRY STANDARD AND THE KIND OF BENCHMARK THAT OTHER PEOPLE HIT BECAUSE, AS WE WELL KNOW, THE INDUSTRY USES CONSULTANTS TO MEASURE WHAT EVERYONE ELSE IS DOING AND DOESN'T WANT TO BE SEEN AS PAYING TOO MUCH MORE OR TOO MUCH LITTLER THAN EVERYBODY ELSE. THIS IS HAPPENING BECAUSE REVENUES ARE DOWN ON WALL STREET, PROFITS ARE DOWN ON WALL STREET. WE'RE ENTERING INTO A NEW PARADIGM SHIFT ON WALL STREET. THIS IS ONE OF THE FALLOUTS FROM THAT.

>> Woodruff: BRIAN FOLEY, WHY DO YOU THINK IT'S COMING DOWN?

>> WELL, I WOULD SAY FIRST IT'S ALL ABOUT REVENUES AND NET PROVE IS. THOSE ARE BOTH DOWN DRAMATICALLY. WHEN THEY'RE DOWN, EVERY EXPECTATION IS THAT THE BONUS NUMBERS WOULD BE DOWN. THE MORGAN STANLEY STORY IS ACTUALLY A LITTLE MORE THAN WE TALKED ABOUT BECAUSE THE TOP OF THE HOUSE, THE TOP 10, 12, 15 GUYS ARE GETTING NO CASH BONUSES AT ALL. AND EVERYTHING IS DEAVER. SO I THINK THAT LAYS DOWN A VERY INTERESTING CHALLENGE TO THE REST OF THE STREET AS TO WHAT THEY'RE GOING TO DO IN TERMS OF HOW THE FORM IN WHICH THEIR BONUSES ARE GOING TO BE PAID. HOW MUCH IS GOING TO BE IMMEDIATE AND HOW MUCH IS GOING TO STAY ON THE TABLE AND FOR HOW LONG AND SUBJECT TO WHAT CONDITIONS?

>> Woodruff: BRIAN FOLEY, STAY WITH YOU, GIVE US AN EXAMPLE OF HOW MUCH, SAY, YOU EXPECT THE AVERAGE BONUS TO COME DOWN. HOW DOES THIS FIT INTO THE LARGER PAY PACKAGE? I MEAN, ARE WE TALKING ABOUT ENTIRE PAY PACKAGES COMING DOWN OR TALKING ABOUT DEFERING THE MONEY, PUTTING IN A GUARANTEED SALARY?

>> WELL, IT WILL VARY BY FIRM. I THINK WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO HAVE GUARANTEED SALARIES. YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE... YOU WILL HAVE A MODEST AMOUNT OF CASH BONUS, A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF STOCK. THIS IS FOR MORE SENIOR EXECUTIVES. THAT STOCK WILL STAY ON THE TABLE FOR A CONSIDERABLE PERIOD OF TIME. AND AS YOU GO DOWN IN THE ORGANIZATION, THERE WILL BE LESS BY WAY... MAYBE LITTLE OR NO STOCK AND MAYBE ALL CASH BUT THERE WILL BE LESS CASH. LOOKING AT THE POOLS NOT ALL THE NUMBERS ARE IN. BUT SOME OF THE EARLY RETURN NUMBERS SUGGEST THAT THE OVERALL POOLS MAY BE SOMEWHAT FLAT. AND WHAT YOU HAVE IS AN ALLOCATION BETWEEN THOSE PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN HIGH ACHIEVERS IN A DOWN YEAR AND THOSE PEOPLE WHO HAVEN'T. THE OTHER THING WE HAVEN'T TALKED ABOUT ARE LAY-OFFS. THERE ARE REPORTS NOW THAT THE LAY-OFFS MAY INCREASE SUBSTANTIALLY AS THE YEAR GOES ON. SO THAT'S A SECOND PROBLEM. IT'S NOT JUST LESS MONEY BEING PAID BUT PEOPLE ACTUALLY LOSING THEIR JOBS.

>> Woodruff: WILLIAM COHEN, SO LOOKING AT THIS PICTURE THAT IS AGAIN THE REPORTS JUST STARTED TO COME IN. ARE THESE APPROPRIATE REDUCTIONS YOU'RE SEEING? ARE THERE... AND IN YOUR MIND AS YOU'VE BEEN TELLING US TODAY, YOU STILL THINK SOME OF THESE AMOUNTS THAT ARE BEING PAID ARE EXCESSIVE. TELL US WHY.

>> JUDY, WALL STREET HAS ALWAYS PAID ITSELF EXCESSIVELY. BASICALLY FROM THE ORIGIN OF THE PHENOMENON OF WALL STREET. WALL STREET BANKERS, WHEN THEY WERE PARTNERS OF THEIR OWN FIRMS GENERALLY GOT PAID MUCH MORE THAN THE COMMON PERSON ON THE STREET. AND ALWAYS LIVED MUCH MUCH BETTER. SO THIS IS A PHENOMENON THAT'S BEEN GOING ON FOR WELL OVER 100 YEARS. WHAT'S BEEN HAPPENING UNFORTUNATELY FOR THE LAST 40 YEARS SINCE WALL STREET FIRMS STARTED GOING PUBLIC AND ONCE UPON TIME WHEN WE WERE ALL PRIVATE PARTNERSHIPS IT WAS ALL THEIR OWN MONEY AT RISK. IF THEY MADE A LOT OF MONEY AND TOOK THAT OUT AS THEIR OWN PROFIT GOD BLESS THEM. WHAT'S HAPPENED IN THE LAST 40 YEARS SINCE THESE FIRMS STARTED GOING PUBLIC AND NOW ALL THE FIRMS ON WALL STREET ARE PUBLIC IS THEIR INCENTIVE IS TO TAKE BIG RISKS WITH OTHER PEOPLE'S MONEY AND TO PAY THEMSELVES HUGE BONUSES BASED ON THE REVENUE THEY'VE GENERATED. NO OTHER PUBLIC COMPANYS ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH PAY OUT BETWEEN 50 AND 60 CENTS OF EVERY DOLLAR OF REVENUE IN THE FORM OF COMPENSATION TO THE PEOPLE WHO WORK THERE. EVEN IF YOU CUT THESE COMPENSATION 30% AND PUT IT IN DEFERRED COMP AND STOCK, ET CETERA, THEY'RE STILL WAY OVERPAID, MUCH MORE OVERPAID THAN THEY NEED TO BE FRANKLY.

>> Woodruff: BRIAN FOLEY YOU DON'T WORK FOR ONE OF THESE FIRMS BUT YOU DO CONSULT WITH THEM. HOW DO THEY JUSTIFY THESE BIG AMOUNTS EVEN WITH THE REDUCKS WE'RE SEEING?

>> WELL, LET ME TAKE ON A FACT OR TWO FIRST. I UNDERSTAND THE REFERENCE TO 50 TO 60% BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT IT IS ANYMORE. AT SOME OF THE FIRMS NOW IT'S DOWN TO 45 AND 40 AND SOME EVEN LESS THAN 40%. THERE IS A RIGHT-SIZING THAT HAS BEEN GOING ON. HAVE FIRMS BEEN... HAS EVERY FIRM BEEN AS AGGRESSIVE AS IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN TO PULL THE NUMBERS BACK? NO BUT THERE ARE FIRMS THAT MADE SIGNIFICANT STRIDES TO GET THEIR SPEND DOWN AS A PERCENTAGE OF REVENUES. THEY'VE ALSO....

>> BY THE WAY..., IT'S NOT OVER YET. WE'RE STILL GOING TO SEE NOT EVERY FIRM HAS REPORTED YET. I GUARANTEE YOU THERE WILL BE FIRMS UP IN THE 50 AND 60% RANGE BUT ANYWAY.

>> WE'LL SEE. THE CONSENSUS PROJECTIONS THAT I'VE SEEN WOULD HAVE LOOKING AT REVENUES NET OF INTEREST EXPENSE WOULD HAVE 45% FOR THE MAJOR FIRMS BEING ABOUT THE TOP. BUT WE'LL SEE. WE'LL ALSO SEE HOW MUCH IS IN CASH AND HOW MUCH IS IN STOCK. I THINK THAT THIS IS A SITUATION NOW WHERE FIRMS NEED TO BE MORE CONSCIOUS OF HOW THEY SPEND THE MONEY AND WHERE THEY SPEND THE MONEY AND MAKE SURE THAT ON BEHALF OF THE SHAREHOLDERS THEY GET THEIR MONEY'S WORTH BY KEEPING MONEY ON THE TABLE TO ASSURE THAT THERE IS MULTI-YEAR PERFORMANCE THAT WARRANTS THE PAYOUTS IN QUESTION. THAT'S BEEN A PROBLEM IN THE PAST BUT I THINK WE'RE MOVING AWAY FROM THAT.

>> Woodruff: BRIAN FOLEY, VERY QUICKLY YOU'RE SAYING THEY'RE RIGHT SIZING. IT'S STILL A LOT OF MONEY. HOW DO THESE COMPANIES JUSTIFY IT?

>> IT'S STILL A LOT OF MONEY. THEY'LL JUSTIFY... THE NORMAL JUSTIFICATION IS WE NEED TO DO THIS TO RETAIN PEOPLE. THAT'S AN EASIER ARGUMENT TO MAKE THAN IN OTHER PERIODS. RIGHT NOW MOST OF THE STREET IS GOING THROUGH A TOUGH TIME. SO THERE ISN'T NECESSARILY A PLACE TO GO IF YOU DECIDE TO PICK UP YOUR STICKS AND LEAVE.

>> Woodruff: WILLIAM COHEN, WHAT ABOUT THAT AS A JUSTIFICATION FOR WHAT THEY'RE DOING?

>> I THINK BRIAN IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. THAT IS THE JUSTIFICATION. UNFORTUNATELY IT COULDN'T BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH ANYMORE. I THINK SOME OF THESE TOP EXECUTIVES OF WALL STREET FIRMS LIKE GOLD MAN SACKS NEED TO SHOW REAL LEADERSHIP AND CUT BACK THE PAY THAT PEOPLE MAKE SO THESE FIRMS ARE MORE SHAREHOLDER FRIENDLY. THESE FIRMS EXIST FOR THE BENEFIT OF SHAREHOLDERS OR THEY SHOULD AND THEY HAVEN'T. THEY'VE EXISTED FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE PEOPLE WHO WORK THERE WHICH IS WHY PEOPLE GET PAID SO MUCH. THE TIME HAS COME TO REFLECT THE REALITY AND TAP INTO THE... AND CUT THE COMPENSATION FOR PEOPLE ON WALL STREET. THEY STILL GET PAID MORE THERE THAN THEY COULD DOING ALMOST ANYTHING ELSE.

>> Woodruff: STRONG VIEWS. GENTLEMEN WE'LL LEAVE IT THERE FOR YOU. WILLIAM COHEN AND BRIAN FOLEY, THANK YOU BOTH.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Ifill: NEXT, QUESTIONS ABOUT THE SAFETY AND FUTURE OF NUCLEAR ENERGY IN THE WAKE OF THE FUKUSHIMA REACTOR DISASTER IN JAPAN. THAT'S THE SUBJECT OF TONIGHT'S "FRONTLINE." NEWSHOUR SCIENCE CORRESPONDENT MILES O'BRIEN TRAVELED TO THREE CONTINENTS TO FIND THE ANSWERS. HERE IN THE UNITED STATES, HE LOOKED AT THE INDIAN POINT POWER PLANT IN BUCHANAN, NEW YORK. ONE OF THE REACTORS THERE WAS SHUT DOWN LAST WEEK FOR REPAIRS, THE 18th UNPLANNED SHUTDOWN IN FIVE YEARS. HERE'S A PORTION OF MILES' PIECE.

>> Reporter: A FUKUSHIMA-SCALE ACCIDENT HERE LESS THAN 50 MILES FROM THE LOWER TIP OF MANHATTAN WOULD LIKELY MARK THE END OF THE U.S. NUCLEAR INDUSTRY. 17 MILLION PEOPLE LIVE WITHIN 50 MILES OF THIS PLANT. AND THAT'S ONE REASON PLANT OPERATOR FOR A 20-YEAR RENEWAL IS PROVING SO CONTROVERSIAL.

>> YOU'RE LOOKING AT....

>> Reporter: THE COMPANY SAID IT SPENT A BILLION DOLLARS ON UPGRADES AND AN ACCIDENT OF THE SCALE OF FUKUSHIMA COULDN'T HAPPEN HERE.

>> THE PROBLEM IN JAPAN WAS THEY WEREN'T ABLE TO COOL THE REACTORS. WE HAVE SIX SOURCES OF OF OFF- SITE POWER. WE HAVE REDUNDANT GENERATOR. EITHER ONE IS CAPABLE TO SHUT DOWN THE UNIT. THEY'RE LOCATION AT FOUR DIFFERENT ELEVATIONS, FOUR DIFFERENT AREAS OF THE PLANT. ARE ARE IN BUNKERS. ONE IS ELEVATED AT LEAST 40 FEET ABOVE WHERE THE WATER IS.

>> Reporter: THIS IS A CONTENTIOUS LICENSE RENEWAL. THE MOST CONTENTIOUS I THINK WE CAN AGREE ON, RIGHT? WHY?

>> WELL, WE'RE IN A METROPOLITAN AREA. WHEN THE PLANT WAS BUILT BACK IN THE '60s UNIT ONE WAS ACTUALLY COMMERCIAL IN 1961, THERE WERE PEOPLE THAT DIDN'T WANT IT HERE THEN. BUT WE ARE A VALUABLE ASSET TO THE COMMUNITY HERE IN MANY WAYS. IN THE AIR QUALITY, WE'RE A LOW-COST PROVIDER OF ELECTRICITY. THEREFORE WE HOLD THE PRICE OF ELECTRICITY DOWN IN THE AREA. IF YOU LOOK AT OUR LIFE EXTENSION IF WE OPERATED 20 MORE YEARS JUST THE UNION LABOR WOULD EARN OVER $1.3 BILLION IN EARNINGS AT TODAY'S SALARY.

>> Reporter: THE PLANT HAS ITS PASSIONATE CRITICS.

>> WE'VE HAD SOME EARTHQUAKES IN THE EASTERN AND CENTRAL U.S..

>> Reporter: LYNN SYKES, A COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY GEOLOGIST, HAS SPENT YEARS ARGUING THAT THE INDIAN POINT PLANT IS NOT FULLY PREPARED FOR EARTHQUAKES. TWO SEISMIC FAULT ZONES INTERSECT ONE MILE NORTH OF THE PLANT.

>> WHERE IS INDIAN POINT?

>> INDIAN POINT IS RIGHT HERE.

>> RIGHT ON THE FAULT.

>> WHEN WE WERE DESIGNING INDIAN POINT THIS WAS UNKNOWN.

>> THIS WAS UNKNOWN. THE ORIGINAL DESIGN FOR INDIAN POINT BARELY MENTIONS EARTHQUAKES EXCEPT TO SAY THAT THIS REGION IS QUIET COMPARED TO ALASKA AND CALIFORNIA AND JAPAN. WHICH IS TRUE.

>> Reporter: IF THEY WERE DESIGNING THE PLANT TODAY, SAYS SYKES, THE N.R.C.WOULD CERTAINLY TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE NEWLY DISCOVERED SEISMIC DATA.

>> LET'S START WITH THE EARTHQUAKE AND PAINT THE SERIES OF SEQUENCES THAT WORRY YOU THAT COULD LEAD TO A LOSS OF WATER AND LEAD TO THAT RELEASE OF RADIOACTIVE MATERIAL.

>> ONE WOULD BE IF THE REACTORS THEMSELVES ARE DAMAGED BY AN EARTHQUAKE THAT IS LARGE ENOUGH TO CRACK CRITICAL COMPONENTS OF THAT SYSTEM.

>> Reporter: THAT WOULD BE A PRETTY BIG QUAKE, WOULDN'T IT?

>> IT COULD BE A MAGNITUDE 6. IF YOU HAVE AN EARTHQUAKE THAT IS VERY CLOSE TO INDIAN POINT THAT DOESN'T TAKE AS LARGE AN EARTHQUAKE TO CAUSE DAMAGE.

>> Reporter: YET YOU STILL LIVE HERE.

>> I STILL LIVE HERE. I LIVE 17 MILES FROM INDIAN POINT.

>> Reporter: HOW MUCH CONCERN DOES THAT GIVE YOU?

>> IT GIVES ME A FAIR AMOUNT OF CONCERN, AND ONE. REASONS IS THAT INDIAN POINT IS CLOSER TO MORE PEOPLE THAN ANY OTHER REACTOR IN THE COUNTRY.

>> Reporter: NOT ALL EXPERTS AGREE WITH LYNN SYKES. OTHER GEOLOGISTS CLAIM THE FAULT IS NOT SEISMICALLY ACTIVE AND THE COMPANY INSISTS INDIAN POINT COULD HANDLE A MAGNITUDE 7 QUAKE.

>> THE FUEL THAT IS IN THERE IS ALL THE FUEL THAT UNIT 3 HAS EVER USED IN THE COURSE OF ITS EXISTENCE.

>> YEP. SINCE 1976. THIS IS IS BASICALLY FULL. WE HAVE AN APPLICATION PENDING WITH THE NRC.

>> Reporter: WITH ALL THIS RADIOACTIVE MATERIAL ON SITE, SYKES' WORK RAISES AN IMPORTANT QUESTION: IF A POWERFUL EARTHQUAKE TRIGGERED A SERIES OF UNFORESEEN EVENTS LEADING TO A RELEASE OF RADIATION LIKE FUKUSHIMA, HOW WOULD SO MANY PEOPLE MAKE THEIR WAY TO SAFETY?

>> Ifill: NUCLEAR AFTERSHOCKS CAN BE SEEN ON

>> Ifill: "NUCLEAR AFTERSHOCKS" CAN BE SEEN ON PBS' FRONTLINE TONIGHT. CHECK YOUR LOCAL LISTINGS FOR TIMES.

>> Woodruff: NEXT, THE BATTLE OVER ONLINE PIRACY IS HEATING UP AS COMPANIES ARE TAKING THEIR CASE DIRECTLY TO WEB USERS. RAY SUAREZ HAS THE STORY.

>> Suarez: IF YOU NORMALLY TURN TO WIKIPEDIA TO LOOK THINGS UP, YOU'LL HAVE TO GO ELSEWHERE TOMORROW. THE ENGLISH VERSION OF WIKIPEDIA ALONG WITH OTHER POPULAR SITES SUCH AS READ-IT AND BOING BOING WILL GO BLACK FOR 24 HOURS TO PROTEST ANTI-PIRACY LEGISLATION. THE COMPANY HAS OPPOSED TWO FEDERAL BILLS TO STOP ON-LINE PIRACY ACT KNOWN SASS OP-A AND THE PROTECT I.P.ACT. THE LEGISLATION COULD FORCE WEBSITES TO MONITOR MATERIAL FROM USERS THAT MAY INCLUDE COPYRIGHTED CONTENT. IT COULD ALSO GIVE THE GOVERNMENT THE RIGHT TO BLOCK ENTIRE WEBSITES. MAJOR CONTENT PROVIDERS, INCLUDING THE FILM AND RECORDING INDUSTRY, SAY THEY NEED GREATER PROTECTION FROM COPYRIGHT THEFT. THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION SAID OVER THE WEEKEND IT WOULD NOT SUPPORT THE CURRENT VERSIONS OF THE BILL. TWO PRINCIPAL FIGURES FROM THAT DEBATE JOIN ME NOW. THE CEO OF CHEESE BURGER, A NETWORK OF 50 WEBSITES IT PLANS TO GO DARK TOMORROW. AND RICK COTTON IS AN EXECUTIVE PRESIDENT AT NBC UNIVERSAL WHICH FAVORS THE LEGISLATION. HE'S ALSO THE CHAIR OF THE CHAMBER OF COMMERCE COALITION AGAINST PIRACY. LET ME START WITH YOU, BEN. WHAT IS IT IN THIS LAW THAT WARRANTS THE OPERATION... THE OPPOSITION FROM BOTH YOU AND YOUR PARTNERS ON THAT SIDE OF THE DEBATE?

>> WELL, I THINK THAT WHAT THE BILL IS TRYING TO DO DOES NOT MATCH WHAT IT WILL DO. THE BILL IS TRYING TO STOP FOREIGN PIRATE SITES. UNFORTUNATELY WE'RE OPPOSED TO THE FACT IT WILL PROHIBIT THE GROWTH OF JOBS ON THE INTERNET SECTOR.

>> Suarez: WHEN YOU SAY CURB FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS, IS THERE A FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHT TO TRAFFIC IN INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY THAT YOU DIDN'T CREATE?

>> THERE ISN'T A ONE THAT STEALS, QUOTE UNQUOTE COPYRIGHTED MATERIAL BUT THERE IS CERTAINLY A VERY CLEAR CASE TO BE MADE FOR FAIR USE WHICH I THINK THAT THE M.P.A.A.AND THE R.I.A.A.HAS ABUSED THEIR POWERS ON. HERE WHERE PEOPLE CANNOT USE MATERIAL IN A FAIR USE KIND OF WAY BECAUSE THEY'RE TOO AFRAID OF FOLLOWING THE COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT.

>> Suarez: WHY DOES YOUR GROUP SUPPORT THE BILLS AS THEY'RE CURRENTLY WRITTEN?

>> YOU HAVE TO START WITH THE BIG PICTURE HERE WHICH IS WHAT IS AT STAKE HERE IS THE JOBS OF MILLIONS OF AMERICANS WHO ARE EMPLOYED IN TWO DOZEN HIGH- GROWTH, HIGH INNOVATION SECTORS OF THE U.S. ECONOMY. THEIR BUSINESSES ARE UNDER ASSAULT FROM FOREIGN WEBSITES WHICH ARE OVERWHELMINGLY DEDICATED TO NOTHING OTHER THAN TRAFFICKING IN STOLEN CONTENT AND COUNTERFEIT PHYSICAL GOODS. REMEMBER WHAT THESE BILLS ARE ABOUT. NUMBER ONE THEY ARE ABOUT WEBSITES OUTSIDE THIS COUNTRY. SECOND, THEY ARE NOT ABOUT FAIR USE. THEY'RE NOT ABOUT A FEW POSTINGS. THEY ARE ABOUT SITES THAT ARE OVERWHELMINGLY DEDICATED TO TRAFFICKING IN ILLEGAL CONTENT. FINALLY, NO REQUIRED ACTION NEEDS TO BE TAKEN UNLESS THERE HAS BEEN A COURT ORDER WITH FULL DUE PROCESS AND FULL PROCEDURAL PROTECTION. OUR JOB....

>> I DON'T THINK THAT'S TRUE.

>> Suarez: STAND BY. LET MR. COTTON FINISH HIS POINT. GO AHEAD.

>> I THINK THERE'S A LOT OF MISINFORMATION AND MISUNDERSTANDING ABOUT WHAT THESE BILLS PROVIDE, BUT THERE REALLY IS NO LACK OF CLARITY IN THE WAY THE BILLS ARE WRITTEN. FOREIGN WEBSITES OVERWHELMINGLY DEDICATED TO ILLEGAL ACTIVITIES AND THIRD A REQUIREMENT OF A COURT ORDER.

>> Suarez: GO AHEAD.

>> I THINK WHAT RICK IS READING FROM IS THIS BILL. HE'S TALKING ABOUT THE FIRST FEW PAGES OF THE BILL. HOWEVER, THE REST OF THE BILL IS ACTUALLY VERY CLEAR IN TARGETING U.S. ADVERTISING AND FINANCIAL PROVIDERS AS WELL AS GIVING IMMUNITY TO THOSE WHO TAKE PRE-EMPTIVE ACTION IN CENSORING THOSE USERS' CONTENT. THIS BILL DOES ACTUALLY TARGET U.S. COMPANIES. THE WAY THE BILL IS WRITTEN WHEN IT COMES TO REFERRING TO FOREIGN WEBSITES AMERICAN COMPANIES WHO OFFER ON A FOREIGN DOMAIN NAME FALL UNDER THAT BILL. FOREIGN COMPANIES WHO PIRATE CONTENT DO NOT. THIS IS A VERY BAD BILL BECAUSE IT DOES NOT UNDERSTAND THE WAY THE INTERNET WORKS. AND THE DATA THAT RICK IS QUOTING IN TERMS OF U.S. JOBS INCLUDES COMPANIES LIKE US. WE DO NOT SUPPORT THIS BILL. WE SHOULD NOT BE PART OF THE MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WHOSE JOBS ARE AT STAKE. IN FACT THIS BILL IS WHAT IS GOING TO JEOPARDIZE OUR JOBS.

>> Suarez: ABOUT ABOUT THAT? THE INTENTION OF THE BILL IS VERY DIFFERENT FROM THE ACTUAL BILL, THAT HE'LL GET CAUGHT UP IN POLICING KINDS OF FUNCTION THAT DON'T INVOLVE WHAT HE'S DOING. HE'S NOT TRAFFICKING IN MOVIES. HE'S NOT TRAFFICKING IN THE KIND OF MATERIAL THAT YOU TALK ABOUT. HE'S NOT A FOREIGN WEBSITE.

>> THESE BILLS DO NOT TARGET AND WOULD NOT APPLY TO MR. THIS MAN'S WEBSITE. I WOULD ASK HIM RIGHT HERE ON THE AIR WHICH IS IF HE BELIEVES THAT THERE IS CONFUSION OR ANY PORTION OF THE BILL THAT SOMEHOW IMPLICATES A NON-FOREIGN WEBSITE, IS NOT TARGETED ON FOREIGN WEBSITES, WOULD HE SUPPORT THE BILL IF WHATEVER AMBIGUITIES OR UNCERTAINTIES HE THOUGHT EXISTED WERE CLARIFIED? THESE BILLS ARE FOCUSED ON FOREIGN WEBSITES.

>> Suarez: WHAT'S YOUR ANSWER?

>> THESE BILLS ARE UNFORTUNATELY NOT DIRECTED AT THE RIGHT PEOPLE. THE WAY THEY'RE WRITTEN IS INCORRECT. I THINK THAT THE INTERNET COMMUNITY HAS SPOKEN VERY LOUDLY AND CLEARLY AND THE WHITE HOUSE STATEMENT REFLECTS THIS. THAT WE ARE IN SUPPORT OF BILLS THAT CURB PIRACY AND COUNTERFEITTING IF IT DOES NOT INFRINGE ON OUR FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS AND DOES NOT LOWER OUR STANDING WITH THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY BY PREVENTING PEOPLE FROM USING UNCENSORSHIP TOOLS AS WELL AS PROTECTING AMERICAN JOBS. THE INTERNET IS ONE OF THE FEW GROWTH POINTS OF THE ECONOMY WHERE WE'RE CREATING JOBS LEFT AND RIGHT. BILLS LIKE THIS, THERE'S A STUDY THAT WAS PROVIDED THAT SAYS 75% OF INVESTORS, 75% OF INVESTORS, WOULD SPEND LESS AND INVEST LESS IN THE UNITED STATES IF A BILL LIKE THIS WAS PASSED. HOW IS THIS GOOD FOR OUR ECONOMY.

>> Suarez: THE WHITE HOUSE WEIGHED IN ON THIS CONTROVERSY AND I THINK PROBABLY MADE NEITHER SIDE VERY HAPPY. THE ADMINISTRATION SAID ANY EFFORT TO COMBAT ON-LINE PIRACY MUST GUARD AGAINST THE RISK OF ON-LINE CENSORSHIP OF LAWFUL ACTIVITY AND MUST NOT INHIBIT INNOVATION BY OUR DYNAMIC BUSINESSES, LARGE AND SMALL. THEY SAY THEY DON'T WANT THE BILL PASSED AS WRITTEN. BOTH SIDES IN THE HOUSE AND SENATE HAVE SAID THEY'RE READY TO COME BACK WITH A NEW VERSION. MR. COTTON, ARE YOU GOING TO LOSE SOAP-A AS WRITTEN THAT YOU SUPPORT?

>> I THINK BOTH THE SPONSORS OF THE SENATE BILL AND THE HOUSE BILL HAVE ANNOUNCED THAT THEY INTEND TO MAKE REVISIONS WHICH ARE RESPONSIVE TO THE PRIMARY CONCERNS THAT THE WHITE HOUSE EXPRESSED. THEY HAVE AGREED TO TAKE OUT OF THE BILLS INTERNET SERVICE PROVIDERS WHICH WOULD INVOLVE COURT ORDERS BLOCKING ACCESS TO INTERNET SITES. SO THERE HAS BEEN A VERY SIGNIFICANT COMPROMISE. THE SPONSORS HAVE RESPONDED TO THE CONCERNS. AND I THINK THE BILLS AS THEY REMAIN WHICH TARGET CUTTING OFF FUNDING AND PREVENTING SEARCH ENGINES FROM BRINGING BACK RESULTS OF SITES... FOREIGN SITES THAT HAVE ANSWER AJUDE IKTED TO BE DEDICATED TO ILLEGAL ACTIVITIES IS A VERY TARGETED AND VERY FOCUSED PIECE OF LEGISLATION THAT REALLY WHEN YOU LOOK AT IT CAREFULLY POSE NONE OF THE ISSUES WHICH MR. HA REFERS TO.

>> Suarez: QUICKLY BEFORE WE GO, CAN CHANGES BE MADE THAT WILL GET YOU AT A LEGAL REGIME THAT YOU CAN LIVE WITH, YOU AND OTHER PEOPLE LIKE YOU CAN LIVE WITH?

>> UNFORTUNATELY THE BILL CURRENTLY CANNOT HAVE ANY... THE PROVISIONS IN THE BILL NEED TO GO AWAY. WE NEED TO START OVER WITH A TRANSPARENT PROCESS. INSTEAD OF USING LOBBYISTS TO TRY TO DO THIS OVER THE HOLIDAYS WE NEED A TRANSPARENT PROCESS TO START OVER AND INCLUDE THE COMMUNITY. THERE'S A FUNDAMENTAL DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PEOPLE WHO WANT TO CENSOR PARTS OF THE INTERNET AND THOSE LIKE US WHO SEE THE INTERNET AS A METHOD OF GROWING THE ECONOMY AND INNOVATING IN FRONT OF THE WORLD. WE HAVE TO RECONCILE THOSE TWO POSITIONS. WE BELIEVE THAT IT IS MUCH BETTER TO PROTECT THIS CROWN JEWEL OF CIVILIZATION WHICH IS THE ABILITY FOR US TO COMMUNICATE AND EXPRESS OUR IDEAS FREELY THAN TRY TO LOW BOT MISIT.

>> THE ONLY THING I WOULD SAY IN CONCLUSION IS THAT PROTECTING THE INTERNET REQUIRES THAT IT BE AN ENVIRONMENT THAT IS UNDER THE RULE OF LAW.

>> Suarez: THANK YOU BOTH.

>> THANK YOU.

>> YOU'RE WELCOME.

>> Ifill: FINALLY TONIGHT, AN UNFLINCHING LOOK BACK AT THE WAR IN BOSNIA, AS TOLD BY ANGELINA JOLIE. JEFFREY BROWN RECENTLY SAT DOWN WITH THE OSCAR-WINNING ACTRESS AND THE STARS OF HER NEW FILM.

>> Brown: SHE'S ONE OF THE MOST RECOGNIZABLE WOMEN IN THE WORLD, AN ACTRESS WHO OFTEN APPEARS IN GLAMOROUS OR ACTION ROLES.

>> HAVE YOU VIOLATED INTERNATIONAL LAW?

>> Brown: BUT FOR HER LATEST MOVIE ANGELINA JOLIE HAS STEP BEHIND THE CAMERA AS A FIRST- TIME DIRECTOR AND WRITER AND TACKLED A VERY SERIOUS SUBJECT INDEED. IN THE LAND OF BLOOD AND HONEY IS A FICTIONAL ACCOUNT OF EVENTS OF THE WAR IN BOSNIA OF THE 1990s IN WHICH MORE THAN 100,000 PEOPLE WERE KILLED WITH ETHNIC CLEANSING AND BRUTAL ATROCITIES AGAINST CIVILIANS INCLUDING SYSTEM ATIC RAPE. WHY THE WAR IN BOSNIA? WAS IT SOMETHING THAT YOU KNEW ABOUT LONG AGO AS IT WAS HAPPENING OR THAT YOU LEARNED ABOUT?

>> IT WASING IN THAT I KNEW VERY LITTLE OF AND ALWAYS FELT A RESPONSIBILITY TO LEARN MORE.

>> Brown: RESPONSIBILITY? WHY?

>> AS A HUMAN BEING BECAUSE I WAS 17 WHEN IT STARTED. I HAD SPENT THE LAST TEN YEARS TRAVELING THE WORLD AND GOING TO CONFLICTS ZONES AND POST CONFLICT ZONES AND MEETING PEOPLE WHO HAD SUFFERED THROUGH WAR AND SEEING THE STATE OF PEOPLE WHO, AS I WORKED SO HARD ON HOW DO YOU HELP COUNTRIES HEAL OR HOW DO YOU RETURN PEOPLE TO AREAS OR HOW DO YOU HELP PEOPLE GET PAST THE TRAUMA THEY FACE, YOU OFTEN QUESTION WHY DID IT HAVE TO GO THIS FAR? THIS QUESTION OF INTERVENTION, THIS QUESTION OF JUST WAR ITSELF. AND THEN BOSNIA JUST WAS ALWAYS RINGING IN MY MIND. WHAT WAS THAT? HOW DID THAT HAPPEN IN THE '90s? HOW DID THAT GO ON FOR FOUR YEARS WITH NOBODY DOING ANYTHING 40 MINUTES FROM ITALY? AND THEN THE MORE I READ ABOUT THE RAPE CAMPS AND THE CONCENTRATION CAMPS, I JUST COULDN'T... I JUST COULDN'T UNDERSTAND IT. I WANTED TO UNDERSTAND IT. SO I DECIDED TO DO A PROJECT THAT I THOUGHT WAS GOING TO REMAIN PRIVATE ON MY DESK TO GIVE MYSELF AN EDUCATION.

>> Brown: THE PRIVATE RESEARCH LED TO THE IDEA FOR THE FILM, ONE IN WHICH JOELY USED BOSNIAN ACTORS INCLUDING ZANA MARJANOVIC AND GORAN KOSTIC IN THE LEAD ROLES. THEIR CHARACTERS SHARE A COMPLICATED LOVE AFFAIR TWISTED BY THE VICIOUSNESS OF WAR, SHE'S A MUSLIM ARTIST TAKEN CAPTIVE ANDY A SERBIAN SOLDIER. HOW WAS MAKING THIS FILM BECAUSE OF THE SUBJECT MATTER DIFFERENT FROM OTHER ACTING YOU'VE DONE?

>> IT WAS VERY DIFFERENT. FIRST OF ALL IT'S PERSONAL. YOU KNOW, I WAS BORN IN BOSNIA. I LIVE THERE NOW. IT'S VERY PERSONAL IN THAT WAY. IT'S A HUGE RESPONSIBILITY AT THE SAME TIME TO PLAY A CHARACTER THAT LIVES IN A STARK PERIOD.

>> Brown: YOU FELT THAT WHILE YOU WERE DOING IT?

>> I FELT IT WHILE I WAS DOING IT EVERY TODAY.

>> INDEED. IT'S IMPORTANT TO GET IT RIGHT, TO BE GENUINE AND HONEST TO OURSELVES OF COURSE BUT TO THE PUBLIC AND TO THE SCRIPT. WE KNEW WE WERE TREADING A VERY SPECIFIC LINE. WE COULD SLOWLY LOSE OUR BALANCE AND PUSH IT TO ONE SIDE OR THE OTHER AND WE MIGHT NOT DO JUST TOIS TO THE VICTIMS OF THE WAR.

>> Brown: IT WAS HARD TO WATCH. WAS IT HARD TO MAKE?

>> VERY DIFFICULT. YOU KNOW, OUR FIRST SCENE, THE FIRST DAY, THE FIRST SCENE WE SHOT IS ACTUALLY WHEN THE WOMEN ARE TAKEN OFF THE BUS AND TO THE CONCENTRATION CAMP AND WHERE THE FIRST RAPE HAPPENS. THIS IS THE FIRST SCENE WE DID. WE TALKED ABOUT IT LATER ON. I THOUGHT, WHY DID WE HAVE TO DO THAT SCENE FIRST? IT WAS A VERY GOOD POINT THAT ANGELINA JOLIE MADE. SHE SAID WE NEED TO KNOW THAT THERE WILL BE NO EASY SCENES IN THIS FILM.

>> Brown: OFF SCENE IT SEEMS ANGELINA JOLIE HAS TWO VERY DIFFERENT PERSONAS, CELEBRITY AND TABLOID REGULAR MARRIED TO BRAD PIT AND THE ADVOCATE FOR HUMAN RIGHTS WHO SERVES AS A U.N. GOOD WILL A.M. BASS SCORE WITH PARTICULAR ATTENTION TO THE PLIGHT OF WOMEN. YOU KNOW, ANOTHER NOTABLE ASPECT CLEARLY IS THE FOCUS ON WOMEN. MOST WAR FILMS ARE ABOUT THE MEN FIGHTING. THIS WAS CLEARLY CONSCIOUS FOR YOU, IMPORTANT TO YOU?

>> IT IS. IT WAS VERY SPECIFIC TO THIS WAR. AS I LEARNED ABOUT THIS WAR I MET WITH SO MANY WOMEN. THEY TOLD ME THEIR FIRST-HAND ACCOUNTS OF BEING RAPED OR BEING HELD OR USED AS A HUMAN SHIELD OR WATCHING THEIR MOTHERS BEING FORCED TO STRIP AND DANCE NAKED IN FRONT OF SOLDIERS AND FACE THE HUMILIATION.

>> Brown: THIS IS HARROWING AND POWERFUL BUT NOT A FUN OR EASY NIGHT AT THE MOVIES. IS IT YOUR SENSE THAT HOLLYWOOD AND FILM MAKERS TOO OFTEN AVOID TAKING ON SUBJECTS LIKE THIS, TOUGH SUBJECTS?

>> WELL, I KNOW THESE ARE HARD FILMS TO WATCH. I MEAN THEY'RE THE FILMS I LIKE TO WATCH. I KNOW THAT WHEN LIFE IS HARD FOR PEOPLE AND THE ECONOMY IS VERY HARD AND PEOPLE HAVE BEEN IN A TOUGH STATE THESE DAYS I ALSO KNOW THE NEED FOR ESCAPISM AND I UNDERSTAND THAT.

>> Brown: YOU'VE BEEN PART OF THAT.

>> I'VE BEEN A BIG PART OF THAT. YOU KNOW, BUT THESE ARE THE MOVIES I LIKE TO WATCH BECAUSE AT THE END OF THE DAY I THINK PEOPLE INATELY WANT TO BE RESPONSIBLE. WE WANT TO KNOW WHAT'S HAPPENING AROUND US. WE WANT TO BE A PART OF THE WORLD, BE IN THE WORLD AND OF THE WORLD. IT IS A HARD MOVIE TO WATCH BUT IT IS INTENTIONALLY SO. YOU'RE GOING TO WANT TO HAVE SOMEBODY TO STOP IT. YOU'RE GOING TO WISH THIS WASN'T... WHAT IT IS IS IT'S STILL A MOVIE. IT'S NOT EVEN REAL. IT FORCES PEOPLE TO WONER WHAT IT MUST HAVE REALLY BEEN LIKE.

>> Brown: ONE MORE THING. THIS IS YOUR DIRECTING DEBUT. HOW DOES THAT COMPARE TO ACTING? IS IT MORE FUN, LESS FUN, MORE FULFILLING, LESS FULFILLING.

>> SO DIFFERENT. THIS ONE FOR ME, I LOVE HISTORY. AND I LOVE... I'M VERY INTERESTED IN SOCIAL ISSUES AND WOMEN'S ISSUES, OF COURSE. THIS WAS A LABOR OF LOVE ON SO MANY LEVELS. THEN I ALSO CREATIVELY-- AND I'VE WORKED WITH A LOT OF ACTORS AND A LOT OF PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD BUT I'VE NEVER WORKED WITH PEOPLE FROM YUGOSLAVIA. THEY'RE AN EXTRAORDINARY BUNCH OF PEOPLE. NOT ONLY EXTRAORDINARY TALENT BUT ALSO JUST A LIFE, A LIFE THAT THEY BROUGHT TO THE SET. THE MUSIC AND THE CULTURE AND THE... SO IT WAS... I FELT LIKE I WAS WELCOMED INTO A WORLD NOT JUST LEARNING ABOUT HISTORY BUT INTO A FAMILY. IT WAS THE BEST EXPERIENCE I'VE EVER HAD ON FILM.

>> Brown: IN THE LAND OF BLOOD AND HONEY IS NOW IN SELECT THEATERS ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

>> Woodruff: AGAIN, THE MAJOR DEVELOPMENTS OF THE DAY. RESCUE TEAMS EXPLODED HOLES IN THE HULL OF A GROUNDED CRUISE SHIP OFF NORTHERN ITALY AS THE DEATH TOLL REACHED 11. REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL FRONTRUNNER MITT ROMNEY SAID HE PAID ABOUT 15% OF HIS INCOME IN TAXES LAST YEAR. BUT HE SAID HE WON'T RELEASE HIS RETURNS UNTIL APRIL. AND IN WISCONSIN, OPPONENTS OF REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR SCOTT WALKER TURNED IN MORE THAN ONE MILLION SIGNATURES TO FORCE A RECALL ELECTION. AND TO HARI SREENIVASAN, FOR WHAT'S ON THE NEWSHOUR ONLINE. HARI. HOW RECENT DEVELOPMENTS IN CANCER TREATMENT MIGHT HAVE HELPED SEVERAL FRIENDS AND LOVED ONES WHO DIED FROM THE DISEASE. IN OUR SOCIAL ENTREPRENEURSHIP SERIES, WE LOOK AT HOW A SECONDARY SCHOOL IN TANZANIA IS HELPING TO CHANGE THE LIVES OF YOUNG WOMEN. AND ON ART BEAT, JEFF WRITES ABOUT HIS CONVERSATION WITH ANGELINA JOLIE AND THE STRANGE EXPERIENCE OF THE CELEBRITY PRESS JUNKET. ALL THAT AND MORE IS ON OUR WEB SITE, newshour.pbs.org. GWEN?

>> Ifill: AND THAT'S THE NEWSHOUR FOR TONIGHT. ON WEDNESDAY, WE'LL LOOK AT PRIVATE EQUITY FIRMS AND THEIR ROLE IN THE ECONOMY. I'M GWEN IFILL.

>> AND I'M JUDY WOODRUFF. WE'LL SEE YOU ON-LINE, AND AGAIN HERE TOMORROW EVENING, THANK YOU AND GOOD NIGHT. MAJOR FUNDING FOR THE PBS NEWSHOUR HAS BEEN PROVIDED BY:

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