The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour

MR. LEHRER: Good evening. I'm Jim Lehrer in Washington.

MS. WOODRUFF: And I'm Judy Woodruff in New York. Eighty-seven people apparently killed in the fiery conclusion to the cult standoff in Waco, Texas, that story dominates our program tonight. After excerpts from the FBI press conference in Waco, we talk with Attorney General Janet Reno and an expert on religious cults. Then Correspondent Jeffrey Kaye reports on Los Angeles after the Rodney King verdict, and Charlayne Hunter-Gault's return to Somalia. She talks once again with the head of Save the Children.FOCUS - FIERY END

MS. WOODRUFF: Fifty-one days after it began, the standoff in Waco, Texas, ended today in a blazing inferno. Authorities say two members of the Branch Davidian cult set their compound on fire after FBI agents began to tear gas the compound. Justice Department officials said all but eight of the ninety-five people holed up inside died in the blaze. It is believed cult leader David Koresh died in the fire. The fire started hours after the FBI launched a more aggressive strategy to get cult members to surrender. The FBI's assault on the Branch Davidian compound began early this morning around 5:30 AM Central Time. A heavily armored assault vehicle rammed the compounded and pumped tear gas inside. Prior to this, the FBI had phoned the compound to tell the cult members of their plan and had offered them one more chance to surrender. The cult responded by throwing the telephone out of the door. At a morning press conference, Bob Ricks, who heads up the FBI task force in Waco, explained how the operation, which had been approved in Washington, was supposed to work.

BOB RICKS, FBI Spokesman: The first place we entered was here on this side of the building, which is basically on the westerly side of the building. We turned around and we came back and we also punched a hole in here, and made also an insertion. You have seen during the day though we have been making insertions all the way around the compound. The latest one was right through the front door. This door, as you saw by what was there, was heavily barricaded. They had been preparing for assault for a long time. They've been, they have been barricading throughout the tower. They've been putting various reinforcements. They've been building the whole time, preparing for an assault. The action that was taken today was we believe the next logical step in a series of actions to bring this episode to a conclusion.

MS. WOODRUFF: By 10 o'clock in the morning there had been 11 rammings of the building. While FBI agents had come under gunfire during their actions, they had not fired back and there were no casualties reported on either side. The plan, according to Ricks, was to continue the operation throughout the day.

BOB RICKS: We will continue to gas probably all day. The information we have is that those inside the compound have tear gas masks available to them. In fact, we believe that every adult has a gas mask. Those gas masks have limited lives associated with them. We will continue to gas them and make their environment as uncomfortable as possible until they do exit the compound.

MS. WOODRUFF: The tear gas being used was non-lethal and non- flammable. But things did not go according to plan. Shortly after noon, central time, FBI agents say they saw two members of the cult on opposite ends of the compound set fires. These fires, fueled by the flimsy wooden structure and 30 mile an hour winds, quickly spread. At the morning press conference, Ricks discussed the weakness of the structure as well as the nature of the people inside.

BOB RICKS: We believe it is poorly constructed, and if we wanted it to knock the building down, we probably could do it in less than an hour.

REPORTER: We've heard several times different reports say this is the beginning of the siege. Do you all in the FBI see it this way, and also especially in light of the possibility of suicide?

BOB RICKS: We believe of course it is. Every step we've taken we believe is part of this compacting, narrowing their control, their sphere of control to bring this to an end, is this a step up in that? Obviously, we have a step up in pressure that's taking place. Is suicide a possibility? We thought that this was probably the best way to prevent that type of suicide pact from taking place. That has caused us confusion inside the compound. Also we thought that their instincts, the motherly instincts, would take place and that they would want their children out of that environment. It appears they don't care that much about their children, which is unfortunate. We have continually quizzed those coming out, and they, they as a general rule state that suicide they believe is not a possibility.

MS. WOODRUFF: The fire took only an hour to destroy the compound which was the size of a city block. Inside it was estimated there were 95 people, at least 17 of them children. Occasionally, there were explosions and a few television shots of cult members surrendering. But fire trucks and ambulances did not appear on the scene until the compound was completely destroyed. Water to the compound had been turned off weeks ago so fire trucks had to bring their own water. With the destruction of the compound, many questions that authorities hoped to answer may now never be resolved.

MR. LEHRER: Late this afternoon FBI official Ricks held a second news conference in Waco with more details on what happened. Here's an excerpt from that.

BOB RICKS: The following events occurred since the initial use of tear gas. These are not necessarily in chronological order. Branch Davidian Renos Avraam, that's spelled A-v-r-a-a-m, was picked up by agents near the compound. He was asked about the location of the children, and he stated that the children were upstairs in the bunk area. He also was asked about how the fire was started and stated that he did not know, and, excuse me, and stated he did not know and that he heard them, referring to others in the compound, saying, "The fire has been lit. The fire has been lit." An FBI hostage rescue team member observed a subject through a window in the second floor wearing a black uniform and gas mask undergoing a throwing motion. The person was knelt down with his hands cupped from which a flame erupted. A man on the roof was spotted and signaled that he did not want to be rescued. This was after the fire had started. A woman in flames was seen coming out of the compound and tried to run back into the building. An FBI agent exited his armored vehicle, ran toward the building and physically rescued the female despite her attempts to fight him off. There was no gas being inserted into the building at the time of the fire. No pyrotechnics were used at any time. Surveillance aircraft observed fire starting simultaneously at three separate locations. This corresponds to a sighting -- excuse me -- to sightings by our snipers. A Mr. Graham Praddock was, was discovered at approximately 3:11 PM. He had been bunkered near the steel water tower. When we interviewed him, he said that he heard discussions of using lantern fuel to spread it throughout the compound. He also smelled lantern fuel after it had been spread throughout the compound.

REPORTER: Is there any idea if David Koresh is alive at this point?

BOB RICKS: The question is: Do we have any information regarding the condition of David Koresh? We have not been able to confirm whether Mr. Koresh is dead or alive. Yes, on the back row.

REPORTER: Given the actions of the fire and everything, do you have any regrets for using the tear gas and the M-60 this morning?

BOB RICKS: The question is: Do we have any regrets? We always have regrets when human life is lost. What we do not regret is that we believed that this thing had to be brought to a logical conclusion at some point. We think ultimately that more than likely they were preparing for an armed standoff. We believe we frustrated their efforts. We never fired one single round of ammunition. His desire -- and I've stated it repeatedly -- as much as I could without seeming overly dramatic -- was that he wanted to have as many people killed in that compound as possible. That is why it was named the Ranch Apocalypse.

REPORTER: Are they assumed dead at this point or if not what is known about them?

BOB RICKS: The question is: What about the other 80 some odd people whose names were not read? We can only assume that there was a massive loss of life. It was, it was truly an inferno of flames as everyone observed. It would be very surprising if few, if any, of the names not read survived. Yes.

REPORTER: Do you have plans on going --

BOB RICKS: I'm sorry. Right here.

REPORTER: What about the fate of the children that were inside, any word on them? And then I have a follow up.

BOB RICKS: The question is: What about the fate of the children? Again, unfortunately, we have to assume that the children probably are also dead. There were some statements early on that by people coming out that they had indicated the children had been secured in the bunkers. It appeared that this was one final lie on the part of David's part, to assure some people that the children had been taken care of. It appears once again his last final act to the American public was to go through a lie.

REPORTER: Had a fire not broken out, what was the intent, what was the plan of the FBI, and how long do you think the Davidians would have been able to stay inside?

BOB RICKS: The question is: If a fire had not broken out, how long could they have stayed inside? We believe that once we pierced that interior protective room that they had that was fortified with the cinder block that the time was really running, was running out on them with regard to how long they could stay in there. We put massive gas in there. They made the decision that they could no longer maintain that environment. Their gas masks by that time had to be failing. It had been an extended period of time. They had to make the decision were they going to come out and face the charges -- they were facing charges for killing four ATF agents -- or were they going to commit suicide? David Koresh, we believe, gave the order to commit suicide, and they all followed willingly his orders. We had concerns early on with regard to possible suicide. We went throughout the world and interviewed former cult members, associates of former cult members. That number that I last checked was 61 people that we had talked to that had been involved with people inside that compound. The vast bulk, the substantial majority of those inside believed that they would not commit suicide. We had intelligence reports though, however, that David Koresh on the day he was supposed to surrender on March the 2nd, the plan was he was going to walk out, he had grenades attached to himself. When the FBI approached him, he was going to pull the grenades and was going to kill himself. Everybody knew this was the plan. They all reconvened back in the chapel. David Koresh kissed the kids good-bye, was going to go outside, and was going to commit suicide in front of all the TV cameras. At the last second, he chickened out. We knew that suicide was a possibility because of this previous occurrence. To say that we thought at this time he was going to burn it down, we asked him on over four occasions: "David, do you promise us that you are not going to commit suicide?" "I swear, I give you my word, I am not going to commit suicide." His attorneys asked him: "David, is suicide a possibility?" He promised them that suicide was never in the cards.

MS. WOODRUFF: Now to talk further about the events in Waco, we go to Dr. Louis West, a professor of psychiatry at the University of California at Los Angeles. Prof. West has studied cult and cult members for 40 years. Dr. West, thanks for being with us. And before I go to you, I want to alert our audience that at any moment we may go to Jim Lehrer,who is standing by, in a few minutes with an interview with the attorney general. Based on what you know, did it have to come to this?

DR. WEST: It's always easy to second guess somebody. I was surprised that they moved the way they did, and I wonder now whether --

MS. WOODRUFF: You mean the FBI?

DR. WEST: Yes. They knew they were dealing with a psychopath. Nobody is more dangerous or unpredictable than a psychopath in a trap. When you can't predict what someone will do, you're sort of reduced to go by the book, play the odds, and in hostage situations of this kind, the odds are that the longer you wait, the better your chances are of a peaceful solution. Now what the pressures were on the leaders of the FBI at the scene from above, from without to resolve the situation for other reasons, I don't know, but I felt myself that if they could have just waited and waited and waited, in the end, whatever transpired, their chances would be better for saving of life, and then at least you wouldn't have to second guess yourself as they're going to have to do now.

MS. WOODRUFF: We heard the attorney general say at a news conference a little while ago that one of the pressures driving this was that the hostage relief team on the scene there needed to be relieved or broken for other duty, but I think I hear you suggesting that even that might not have been sufficient cause for this?

DR. WEST: It was expensive. It was aggravating and frustrating, but I think if one went by the book and played the odds, one would have waited it out.

MS. WOODRUFF: We heard, we heard on the one hand Mr. Ricks, who was in charge of the FBI there in Waco, say that they didn't think that David Koresh had suicide in mind, and then we also just heard him describe how there was an earlier date when they knew he had rigged himself with grenades and was perhaps going to commit suicide and then backed out at the last minute. You called him a psychopath. What kind of a person were they dealing with here?

DR. WEST: Well, they knew his history, how impulsive and how erratic he was, and how ultimately selfish and ruthless he is or was. You can't tell from one minute to the next what such a person might do, nor probably could he. One minute he's planning to commit suicide, then he changes his mind. One minute he's maybe honestly planning to surrender, then he changes his mind. If you force the issue and close the trap and allow no alternatives, then any outcome is possible, homicide, suicide, anything with such a person.

MS. WOODRUFF: What kind of control did he have, do you believe, over the people in there with him?

DR. WEST: He had the kind of control that makes the definition of a totalist cult, total. The devotion of the followers is such that the cult leader is looked upon as more than a parent, indeed, in his case as a divine figure. If the belief is strong enough, the followers, very often decent and honorable people, themselves, commit themselves then to an action which is dictated by someone who's totally in control of them.

MS. WOODRUFF: But, but -- and to what extent is this governed by the scripture? I mean, we know that this is supposedly a christian cult, and he kept referring time and again to scripture, that he was guided by it. The end he was talking about, explaining the seven seals and the Book of Revelation.

DR. WEST: I've always thought that most of David Koresh's representations about his own religious beliefs were nonsense. He was a con man. He knew his Bible and could spout it endlessly, but obviously his life was not dictated by anybiblical or religious criteria. And the way that he exploited, used, manipulated, and mistreated other people, having sex with young girls, breaking up marriages, all sorts of things that he did without a qualm, hardly bespeak a spiritual person.

MS. WOODRUFF: Now are these things that have been documented?

DR. WEST: Oh, yes, and of course, the FBI knew all about this, and I think they quite frankly had him pegged as a con man and a ruthless, self-seeking person who was now trapped. In a famous book about psychopaths by Kleckley, called The Mask of Sanity, it's clear that these people, charming, manipulative, plausible, extremely adept at getting other people to believe in them and trust them, behind that mask are perfectly capable of being irrational and doing things that are quite self-defeating and not learning by experience and doing it again, and in his case, unfortunately, he had followers, and so it might have evolved in a different way if the trap wasn't closed so tightly that there were no alternatives as the FBI chief. He had in the end either to commit suicide or emerge.

MS. WOODRUFF: And you're saying, you're putting the responsibility clearly on the shoulders of the FBI for closing his options?

DR. WEST: Well, I can't say that because I don't know just how high in the command structure the decisions were made. Sometimes the man on the scene gets his orders, you've let this thing go on long enough, bring it to a close, when if he were allowed to his own devices he might have been willing to, to play it out longer.

MS. WOODRUFF: How closely tied is this David Koresh Branch Davidian group to other religious cults that we hear about and read about at other times?

DR. WEST: Well, of course, there are hundreds, maybe as many as twenty-five hundred cults of all kinds in the United States, not just religious. Some are very large and powerful, like the Unification Church and the Church of Scientology. Some are very small and just involve a few people or several families like the Lumberg Cult, which ended in murder too back in Ohio. The thing is that if you're dealing with a totalist cult, the potentiality for horror always exists.

MS. WOODRUFF: And when you say totalist cult you mean --

DR. WEST: I mean a cult of the type in which the leader is totally in control and in which unethical techniques of manipulation and deceit are employed by the leadership at the expense of the followership in the end.

MS. WOODRUFF: Well, Dr. West, we thank you for being with us.

DR. WEST: You're welcome.

MS. WOODRUFF: Jim.

MR. LEHRER: We've had some technical problems in going to our interview with Attorney General Reno. We hope to have those fixed, and we will go to her later in the program. Still to come on the NewsHour now, the Los Angeles -- Los Angeles after the verdict and Charlayne in Somalia. FOCUS - L.A. STORY

MR. LEHRER: Now the second Rodney King verdict plus two. Jeffrey Kaye of public station KCET-Los Angeles looks at the so-called "split decision" and the calm aftermath.

MR. KAYE: The barricades were in place, federal marshals, National Guards troops, LA police at the ready, then Saturday morning at 7 the verdict.

[VERDICT BEING READ]

MR. KAYE: Cheers all around at the First AME Church in Central Los Angeles. In court, Officer Lawrence Powell turned pale as his conviction was announced. Sgt. Stacey Koon looked straight ahead as the clerk declared guilty. Officer Briseno, not guilty. Briseno's eyes welled with tears. A small cross dangled from a chain in his hand. Former Officer Timothy Wind bowed his head and closed his eyes when the clerk read his verdict, also not guilty.

TERREE BOWERS, U.S. Attorney, Los Angeles: I want to commend the outstanding team that prepared and presented this case.

MR. KAYE: Justice Department officials congratulated each other.

BARRY KOWALSKI, Attorney, Department of Justice: I think a year ago the conscience of the community, the conscience of the nation cried out for justice, and this verdict provides justice.

MR. KAYE: Prosecutor Barry Kowalski's sentiments were echoed by politicians nationwide, anxious to pronounce the system vindicated.

JANET RENO, Attorney General: The jury has spoken and justice has prevailed in Los Angeles. I want to particularly thank the very dedicated prosecutors.

PRESIDENT CLINTON: This verdict was a tribute to the work and the judgment of the jury and the efforts of the federal government in putting the case together.

GOV. PETE WILSON, California: I think that justice has been served. There's been a vigorous prosecution, a vigorous defense. The jurists took the case very seriously.

MR. KAYE: There were similar feelings or at least feelings of relief on the streets of Los Angeles.

MAN: I feel peace because being a black man this has been hard. It's been hard on the good ones because we've been portrayed as out there waiting to riot, and it feels good because the streets are a little safer for us, and it feels good.

HAL MARTIN: I think that the prosecution did a thorough job, and I think you can't help but congratulate the jurors for taking the time to go through all the evidence, weigh it, and did what was necessary to give the defendants a fair trial. And it showed that the system works.

MR. KAYE: That's now Harland Braun sees it. Braun, who represented Briseno, believes all four officers should have been acquitted. He also thinks the system is incapable of coping with such a highly charged case. Last year's riots resulted in some 50 deaths.

HARLAND BRAUN, Defense Attorney: You have a system that you bring 12 average people in and say let's decide the evidence in this case. And then you say to them, essentially, we're putting dynamite in your house and if you vote "not guilty," we might blow it up and maybe your family's going to be around.

MR. KAYE: I understand how you feel personally about the case. There are going to be many, I know, who will be saying that this, these convictions or this verdict --

HARLAND BRAUN: Right.

MR. KAYE: -- these verdicts were probably the best for the city.

HARLAND BRAUN: They may be, may be. I mean, if you tell me that we have convicted two innocent men so that 50 innocent people don't die, I mean, isn't it obvious it would be better that two innocent men spent some time in prison than 50 people die?

MR. KAYE: For their part, most members of the racially mixed jury refrained from public comment, although a few jurors have given TV interviews. One anonymous juror said that the tape of the beating spoke for itself.

MAN: This is really what's convicted Powell. The next punch come out, where he hit him in the chest.

SPOKESMAN: This is what convicted Powell?

MAN: That was one of --

SPOKESMAN: The fact that he was delivering so many of the blows?

MAN: I think that is something that was almost disgusting about it, just seeing that. There was no reason for that.

MR. KAYE: The defendants have also kept a low profile since the verdicts. Theodore Briseno told the Los Angeles Times he wants to go back on the street as a police officer. Referring to the fact that juries have found him "not guilty," Briseno asked, "How could 24 people be wrong?" The three other defendants are under contract to tell their stories to a tabloid TV show. In his interview with "A Current Affair," the convicted Sgt. Koon discussed the prospects of going to prison. In their post verdict interviews, two defense lawyers who analyzed the case, attributed the two "guilty" verdicts in part to actions of the defense. Braun said the testimony of Melanie Singer, a highway patrol officer called by the defense was particularly damaging. Singer cried when she testified about the beating.

HARLAND BRAUN: Melanie Singer provided an emotional content to the prosecution's case that it lacked prior to that time, and you could just see that on the faces of the jurors.

MR. KAYE: Another damaging witness was Theodore Briseno. The prosecution used his video taped testimony from the state case in which he said he didn't understand why his co-defendants kept beating King.

IRA SALZMAN, Defense Lawyer: What was damaging is my inability to cross-examine a video tape, to have the jury flesh out the individual.

MR. KAYE: The attorney for Rodney King was disappointed that only two officers were found guilty. Milton Grimes represents King in his civil lawsuit against the city. Grimes told "Good Morning America" the verdicts will help King's case.

MILTON GRIMES, Lawyer for King: Two men have been found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt to a moral certainty that they violated King's civil rights by using excessive force, or not protecting him. We only have to prove by a preponderance of the evidence that they violated his civil rights and they beat him and used excessive force.

SPOKESMAN: So it's an easier case in some ways?

MILTON GRIMES: Yes.

MR. KAYE: Despite the pre-verdict jitters and in some cases outright hysteria, this weekend life went on pretty much as normal throughout Los Angeles. Police remained on alert and cruised the streets often four to a car. In the Peco Union neighborhood, an area populated largely by Central American refugees, families went about their shopping in areas that last year were ransacked by looters.

MR. KAYE: So you're happy. Why are you happy?

LITTLE GIRL: Because the riot doesn't come.

MR. KAYE: Because the riot doesn't come.

LITTLE GIRL: Yes.

MR. KAYE: In Korea Town, workmen continued to rebuild a shopping mall destroyed during the riots last year, and merchants expressed their relief.

MERCHANT: I'm kind of glad that it came out two guilty and two not guilty because I worked in a store -- I have a store down in South Central and I've been on the edge for quite a long time.

MR. KAYE: But in South Central Los Angeles, as well as in other riot-scarred communities, reaction to the verdict went beyond simple relief or pleasure. At Otis Henson's barber shop, for example, there was the feeling the King beating case was only a symbol of a deeper problem.

NICK STEWART: You see, it wasn't those four policemen that did it. It was a mind implant. It's been going on for years, man. There's an undeclared war against black people.

MR. KAYE: Many in Los Angeles are anxiously awaiting the sentencing of the two convicted officers.

CHRIS MONTEZ: They'll get a little bit of time. They're only going to get a little bit of time. They're not going to get even close to ten years I don't think. And if they do, they're going to a country club anyway so --

MR. KAYE: At the Serving Spoon Restaurants, customers were reluctant to focus simply on the King beating case.

BOBBY GRACE: I'm happy that there was a guilty verdict but still anticipating exactly what that means for the African-American community and how things are going to change for the better in terms of the economic development in our community and continued concern about police brutality.

[CHURCH GROUP SINGING]

MR. KAYE: At Los Angeles churches this weekend there were similar calls to put the King beating case in the past. Many Angelinos will be thinking about the future tomorrow when they cast votes in a citywide election. The ballot includes 24 candidates for mayor. Those candidates complained their campaigns received little attention because the media was so fixated on the King beating case and preparations for riots which never came. CONVERSATION - RETURN TO SOMALIA

MS. WOODRUFF: Next tonight a conversation about the situation in Somalia. Charlayne Hunter-Gault returned to Somalia and talked once again, as she did in December, with Willet Weeks of the international relief organization Save the Children.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Willet Weeks is head of a U.S.-based private agency that focuses on community development and relief in many of Africa's stricken nations. Weeks was a reluctant convert to the military-assisted efforts here in Somalia, arguing last December that his greatest fear was a of a premature pullout that would leave things worse than if the military forces had never come at all. I spoke with him recently at Save the Children headquarters in Mogadishu.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: The last time I saw you was Christmas Day, 1992. How much has changed since then?

WILLET WEEKS, Save the Children: An awful lot has changed, and at the same time a lot of other very basic things haven't. When you were here last Christmas, as you remember, it was the great Christmas of the world to the Somali people and to the people who were working with them. By now here we are in March and we find that -- I can't say the famine is over -- but that most of the people who need food are getting it. The big warring factions have not been completely disabled but their power has been greatly reduced, and there's a new dynamic. There's a new game to be played in Somalia by the players within Somali society who have to rebuild this country almost from scratch. But when I say some things haven't changed, I'm talking about some of the underlying dynamics of the problem which face Somali society, the way in which the state, the government structures have collapsed almost completely, and in which people have developed an almost institutional sense that if they see something that they need or that they want, the only way to get it is to reach out and take it. And so while the big warring factions, as I say, have been pretty well disabled, you have a kind of retail banditry which has broken out all over the country. Large numbers of small gangs roving the countryside who do a lot of petty thievery, shoot up cars, kill people, and in a way they're even more violent than before.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Do you have any sense of why this has escalated in this way?

WILLET WEEKS: I think a lot of people who were on the take from the systemized banditry which has existed before under the warlords are now out on their own, and so it's a much more petty kind of banditry.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: And the warlords don't have control of --

WILLET WEEKS: And the warlords don't have control over them the way they used to, so what we have is a situation that's much more unpredictable, and it's very difficult to deal with, certainly for agencies like ours, which are trying to do relief and rehabilitation, trying to help people grow for the future.It's a difficult situation. But the big thing that has changed, Charlayne, is that people have hope here for the first time. You could really see that last month at the end of the Muslim fasting month of Ramadan, the holidays called the Ada Separin, it's when the families get together, have a big feast, the first time during the day they can eat, and for the first time in three years people were out on the street in all the cities and towns. They had new clothes on, anyone who could afford them, and they knew they could go out with the new clothes and that they probably weren't going to be held up at gun point and going to lose those. So it was a very exhilarating time for people and it made them I think realize for the first time that some of the basic givens of the situation have changed.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Well, when I left, there was beginning to be a relationship between the non-government organizations, the United Nations and US led forces that were here. How have those relationships worked out?

WILLET WEEKS: They continue to be complicated. You have three large groups that aren't accustomed really to talking to each other, and so on the ground we often have some miscommunication problem which can slow down relief. There's no question about that. But the underlying goodwill is there. The U.S. military, in particular, have done a tremendous job of trying to blend into the relief operation as much as they can. You know that probably on the first of May or thereabout there's going to be a transition to something to UNISOM 2, and nobody knows yet quite how that's going to be staffed or organized or anything else. There's a whole new process that has to come into play there.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: That's in preparation for the U.S. drawing down significantly.

WILLET WEEKS: Exactly. The U.S. would draw down very significantly. The U.S.-led international force called UNITAF would phase its command over to the U.N. forces under the command of a Turkish general, Gen. Chevik Biad, and probably the U.S. presence would be reduced from what was it, up to almost 30,000 in December/January, down to about 4,000 now.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: What do the NGO's like yours think about that? Because you said to me in December that if the United States pulled out too prematurely, before the country was stabilized and secure, it would be worse than if they had not come at all. Has your thinking changed on that?

WILLET WEEKS: There's a sense among many Somalis that seeing the U.S. presence reduced means that there's also a reduction of the U.S. commitment. I really think the U.S. is the country that is seen as the key player in the operation to restore hope in Somalia, and I think the feeling that if the U.S. withdrew to the point where they were no longer a major player on the scene, people would feel that they were being abandoned, and I think a lot of the hope that's been restored would start to be lost.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Of course, I talked to some U.S. officials about the situation of drawing down the forces, and they said, some of the officials said to me that there's always going to be a U.S. presence within close proximity and so that that will, you know, in part assuage some concerns.

WILLET WEEKS: Well, two things are going to happen for sure. There will be a testing very early on. I think we can almost count on the fact that there will be some serious attempts to attack the new UNISOM forces in a major way by the remnants of the former warring factions in order to be able to see whether they're going to be able to rebuild their power after the U.S. drawdown has taken place, and I think at that point it's going to be vital that the international forces respond decisively and it's also going to be vital that as you say this U.S. mobile force, rapid intervention force, the 5,000 men and women which are supposed to be stationed somewhere offshore be deployed rapidly in order to let these people know that nothing really has changed, as the Americans say, but, yes, the Americans are planning a major continuing role in this, and everybody's going to be waiting to see whether that is, indeed, going to be there.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: I've heard some criticism of the aid effort, and it goes like this, that with the aid agencies coming in now and doing everything for Somalis, it's going to create a cycle of dependence that is going to be difficult to break. How do you see that? I mean, how do you help what was clearly in everybody's analysis a short, you know, a major problem, the famine, the war, the starvation, and at the same time not take away the Somalis' own dignity, sense of self-sufficiency and responsibility?

WILLET WEEKS: The Somalis are tired of being seen as basket cases, as being seen as helpless and as lacking the ability to build the future of their own country. They'll, most Somalis that I talk to are the first to tell you that they're sick and tired of having to depend on relief, but by and large, Somalis are more than ready and anxious to just get back to a normal life in which they can produce their own livelihood, their own food, and feed their own families.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: I've heard some critics say that the United States is not going to stop Somalis from fighting, that nobody is going to stop Somalis from fighting and so that the best you can do is try to bring Somalia back to a sort of minimum level of, of functioning and everybody should just get out.

WILLET WEEKS: The American government and the International Community as a whole took on a huge gamble by coming in the way they did in December. If they're not willing to follow the consequences of that, which is that it's going to need to be a major commitment of time, resources and people over a longer term, several years, then they ought not to have done it in the first place. I think it would be criminal to come in, do a quick fix intervention and just stir up the pot and then leave. If that commitment of resources is going to be there and if it's managed, this is a big, in an intelligent and sensible and coordinated way among all the different parties that are involved than I think they did. There's a real chance. The Somalis I know at the level that counts, the community level, the women, the young people, and many of the traditional leaders, they're willing to try to make this work, but they'll lose hope quickly if they don't feel supported.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Why should Americans care?

WILLET WEEKS: You can't afford not to care when millions of people are dying. You can't afford to let a situation, knowingly let a situation evolve back to what it was in, in December and November. We've also invested a great deal here. The United States has invested a lot of its prestige and a great deal of its money, over a billion dollars at last count, to bring about this first stage of stabilization. All that would be wasted if we were to pull back. The resources involved are large, but they're not as big as what we're giving to some of the countries in the world that has much less need objectively in Somalia. So I don't think that it's something that we can afford to let it slide. I think it is something that we definitely can afford, and the cost of seeing that kind of starvation and that kind of anarchy in the world is just too high for us to let this opportunity slip. At least I really hope so.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Well, Willet Weeks, thank you.

WILLET WEEKS: Thank you, Charlayne. NEWSMAKER

MR. LEHRER: We return now to the Waco story. The plan that the FBI launched this morning was approved by Attorney General Janet Reno. She joins us now from the Justice Department. Attorney General Reno, welcome.

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: Good evening.

MR. LEHRER: Do we assume at this point that 88 people died in that fire, is that correct?

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: We do not have a final conclusion on that.

MR. LEHRER: But it's, the FBI seems to assume that that is the case but you're not assuming that, is that right? It's possible that somebody could have gotten out?

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: We're going to wait to see until we can carefully determine just what happened.

MR. LEHRER: Did the FBI handle this thing correctly this morning?

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: I think the FBI exercised remarkable restraint and handled this in a very professional and very able manner. I don't think that there is any situation that is more difficult than this. These are the hardest decisions possible to make.

MR. LEHRER: Now when did they bring this idea to you? I'm talking about the gassing idea, the thing they did this morning before the fire. When was that brought to you?

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: This was presented as part of a systematic attempt to increase pressure without firing or taking violent action against members of the cult in the compound, and it was presented to me last Monday.

MR. LEHRER: Was it brought to you by their initiative, or was it a result of you or the President or somebody saying, hey, look, let's get this thing over with, FBI, or was it they came to you and said, look, we believe it's time to do something, here's what we'd like to do?

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: They came to us describing again so that everybody understood exactly what the circumstances were, though they had kept us advised each step of the way, they came to me and they said, these are the circumstances, our negotiators do not believe he is coming out, they have not been successful in negotiating really anything in terms of the release of the children. We're continuing to be concerned about the children. We have from the outset. We had had reports that they had been sexually abused, that babies had actually been beaten. I asked when I first heard that for them to verify it and, again, that was the report that was brought back. We had a situation where we were continuing to be increasingly concerned about the safety of the children, about the danger to everyone who was around the compound, and we made a judgment that this would be the best time to escalate the pressure. We looked to see what had been done when the FBI came in to clear away the cars from around the compound. There had been no threat of anything such as thing. As it led up to today, there had been no threat as the FBI took steps to retaliate by something such as this. We made a judgment because we had heard consideration that mass suicide might be a possibility, it was a possibility, and that we had to carefully consider it. But it was also a fact based on every piece of information we had that they had supplies that would enable them to remain in the compound indefinitely, that we checked the water supply because we might, we thought that might be a way to control it. And I asked specifically about that, but the water supply continued apparently to be adequate based on the surveillance that the FBI was able to do. We then determined that they could do something like this at any time, we could not control it to the future, that there was no right time for anything such as this, but this would be the best time to do it.

MR. LEHRER: But, but what caused them and you to agree that this was the best time, best time in what kind of context?

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: The hostage rescue team surrounded the premises of the compound. One of the points that must be remembered is that the people in the compound had ammunition. It could hit an object 3,000 yards from the compound, so you, in effect, had at least two or a significant square mile area of property that had to be secured as a perimeter. The hostage rescue team was in place, able to control that perimeter to the extent that it could really be absolutely controlled. We felt based on discussion with the experts that the hostage rescue team would have to be pulled back for retraining and that this would be the best time when the Bureau had the best opportunity to control the situation for the event to happen.

MR. LEHRER: The conventional wisdom, of course, is that in these kinds of situations the longer you wait, the more you increase the chances of a peaceful solution. Was the decision simply that 51 days was long enough, that there was no point in waiting any longer, that that conventional wisdom was not necessarily at work in this particular case?

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: When I first took office we had discussions with the Bureau and we concurred that we should try to negotiate, try to wait it out, try to do everything possible, despite the fact that we had information that the children had been abused, were continuing to be abused in terms of the babies being slapped and beaten, so we tried our best in terms of negotiation to get them out. We then became increasingly concerned with the safety of the children, the safety of those who were providing the perimeter around the compound and made the determination that in all eventuality based on the efforts that we had made to date, without receiving response or any threat of a response such as this as the Bureau took each increasing step or pressure that this would be the time to do it.

MR. LEHRER: When you went over the possibilities, the eventualities, the expectations of what might happen if this gassing operation was successful, I mean, if they did what they did this morning and they put the gas in there, et cetera, what was the expectation?

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: The general expectation is that they would, it might take some time, that there might be some residents who would be better able to withstand the gas than others, but that ultimately if we waited, if we were patient, that they would ultimately come out because the gas would be so discomforting.

MR. LEHRER: Did anybody raise the possibility that it could trigger this terrible, could trigger some kind of mass suicide?

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: This was a possibility that was considered because any time you make a hard, hard decision such as this, you have to consider all the eventualities. And what influenced this was the concern that it could happen any time in an indefinable future that we could not even begin to control.

MR. LEHRER: So it didn't matter? I mean, your conclusion was, the FBI's conclusion was that Koresh was in control of the situation, not the FBI, is that essentially it?

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: Koresh certainly controlled, if hewanted to do something like this. It would have been so far as we could determine impossible to prevent if that's what he wanted to do.

MR. LEHRER: What was the preponderance of the evidence about the likelihood of a mass suicide, that the FBI gathered from people who'd come out of the compound, other people who had once been members of this sect?

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: The FBI advised us that they had talked with as many sources as possible to determine what the eventuality might be and concluded that it was not great.

MR. LEHRER: That Koresh was just no suicide bent or his followers wouldn't follow him, or what was the basis for that?

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: We -- I looked at it in terms of whether the followers would follow him and whether he would lead them to something like this. It was a possibility. Again, the possibility of it happening in the future is something that I could not control, but it was a possibility but considering all the sources that the FBI consulted, considering their responses to the increasing pressure brought by the FBI over the last several days, it did not seem to be a great probability at all.

MR. LEHRER: What pressure are you referring to?

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: The increasing pressure by coming up to the compound, clearing the area away from the compound, coming up at one point they even bumped the compound, coming up this morning at the time the first gas was put in. There was, they fired in response, but there was no threat of anything such as this.

MR. LEHRER: Mr. Ricks of the FBI said there were some fresh, there was some fresh intelligence that made them alter their plan in the last couple of days or so. Do you know what he was referring to there?

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: I don't know specifically what he was referring to.

MR. LEHRER: Was the intelligence pretty good from inside?

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: It would, it would vary. We don't know, we can't really tell what the intelligence, whether it was really good, considering the final outcome.

MR. LEHRER: Yeah. But David Koresh was clearly the man in charge, is that correct? Is there any doubt about that?

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: From everything that I have been advised, from all the information that the Bureau received, that is clearly the case.

MR. LEHRER: Also, Ricks, Mr. Ricks made the point today that basically David Koresh was a liar, that most of what he said to them and the FBI agents talked to him endlessly in these last 51 days. Does the evidence or the summaries that you received also bear that out?

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: Yes it does.

MR. LEHRER: That he just -- there was never a real honest communication between the FBI and David Koresh?

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: Basically when he said he would do something, he didn't do it.

MR. LEHRER: The children, should we assume that, what is it, 17 children were in there by last count or 25? I've seen two different figures. Can you help me out on that?

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: What I understood was that there were at least 17 children, and then there were possibly other minors who were people Koresh considered to be his wives.

MR. LEHRER: And we should assume at that point that they perished as well in this fire, is that right?

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: I have not heard the final conclusion yet.

MR. LEHRER: Is it, is it -- there were all kinds of rumors about underground tunnels and all that sort of thing. Those turn out to be not true, is that correct?

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: We will certainly explore those. I've consulted with the FBI trying to make sure that all possible underground bunkers or tunnels are identified and explored.

MR. LEHRER: What does happen next? What should we expect over the next couple of days or so? What are you going to be in there -- you and the FBI -- your folks going to be looking for, and how is this information going to come out, and et cetera?

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: We want to make sure that it as fair and as an objective review is done of this matter as possible. As I've indicated, the buck stops with me. I make the best judgment I can, and one of the hardest decisions that anybody can make based on all the information I can possibly bring together, trying to consider every eventuality, then it's my responsibility to be accountable, to ask questions and to answer questions and to review, and to see if there is anything that could have been done differently to prevent such a loss of human life. We constantly have to look at what we have done to see if we can do it better. But at this point based on everything I know, based on the most careful study possible, in a very deliberate manner, this was the best judgment that could have been made under the circumstances. There is no right answer to something like this. There is no perfect time. You just have to do the best you can with the information that's available, considering the interests of the children and the agents.

MR. LEHRER: Now you talked to President Clinton about this. Do you, did he sign off on it, or did he approve it? I mean, what was his position on this plan?

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: I basically told him that I had carefully reviewed the matter, spent a number of days carefully talking to experts such as medical doctors to make sure that the gas was not lethal, that there was no permanent injury related to the gas. I had talked to other experts. I had tried to make the, make sure that all the questions that I had were answered. I tried to explore all the eventualities. I told him that I had done as careful a study as possible and this was the decision I had made, that I thought it was the correct decision, though it was an extremely difficult decision, and he said, okay.

MR. LEHRER: All right. Attorney General Reno, thank you very much for being with us.

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: Thank you. NEWS SUMMARY

MS. WOODRUFF: In other news today, United Nations helicopters evacuated hundreds of sick and wounded people from the Bosnian town of Srebrenica. The evacuations were carried out under a cease-fire negotiated by Muslim and Serb commanders this weekend. That agreement amounted to a virtual surrender by the town's Muslim forces. There was new violence in South Africa today as thousands of people mourned slain black leader Chris Hani. Hundreds of people clashed with police outside of Soweto's soccer stadium, where the funeral ceremony took place. Ten people were wounded. At least 26 others have died since Sunday in township violence. RECAP

MS. WOODRUFF: Good night, Jim.

MR. LEHRER: Good night, Judy. Now you can take a glass of water. Take a drink of water. And we'll see you tomorrow night. I'm Jim Lehrer. Thank you and good night.