The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour

MR. LEHRER: Good evening. I'm Jim Lehrer in Washington.

MR. MacNeil: And I'm Robert MacNeil in New York. After tonight's News Summary, we devote the whole NewsHour to the Rodney King beating trial and its aftermath. First, how could the four white officers be acquitted? We talk to the prosecution, the defense, and two reporters who covered the whole trial. Then the violence that followed the verdict in the streets of Los Angeles. Correspondent Jeffrey Kaye has a comprehensive videotape report. Then two community views of the aftermath from representatives of the black community and the police. Finally, what is the role for the federal government?NEWS SUMMARY

MR. MacNeil: Rioting, looting, and arson continued today in Los Angeles. Reports said that between ten and thirteen people have been killed and nearly two hundred injured. The violence erupted after a jury acquitted four white police officers in the beating of a black man, Rodney King. The incident had been videotaped and widely seen on television. Looters in the largely black South Central part of the city smashed store windows today and grabbed every bit of merchandise they could get their hands on. They also rampaged in downtown Los Angeles and other areas. Gov. Pete Wilson declared a state of emergency and began deploying 2,000 National Guardsmen this afternoon. Seven hundred fifty California state troopers were also sent into the city. Incidents of violence began shortly after the verdict was announced late yesterday afternoon. A mob attacked the main police headquarters. Others dragged motorists from their cars and beat them. Hundreds of homes and businesses were set ablaze and crowds attacked the firefighters who tried to put them out. Mayor Tom Bradley has declared a dusk to dawn curfew for the entire city. Earlier, he spoke at a city hall news conference.

MAYOR TOM BRADLEY, Los Angeles, California: Yes, they saw law abiding citizens expressing their anger at the verdict, and they chose as an opportunity to steal, to loot, to vandalize, and, indeed, to kill. That we cannot and will not tolerate.

MR. MacNeil: Mayor Bradley said more than 240 people have already been arrested. City officials said the total damage from the riots would top $40 million. Jim.

MR. LEHRER: President Bush said the verdict has "left us all with a big sense of personal frustration and anguish. He said the federal government was stepping up its investigation of the Rodney King incident and the Justice Department was considering federal civil rights violation charges against the four officers. Later, Mr. Bush spoke to a group of broadcasters in Columbus, Ohio.

PRES. BUSH: No one watching television coverage of the violence yesterday afternoon and evening could have any reaction other than revulsion and pain. And mob brutality, the total loss of respect for human life, was sickeningly sad. And the frustration all of us felt seeing helpless victims pulled from vehicles and assaulted, it was hard not to turn our eyes away. But we must not turn our eyes away and we must keep on working to create a climate of understanding and tolerance and condemn a climate of bigotry and fear.

MR. LEHRER: Democratic Congresswoman Maxine Waters called a news conference on Capitol Hill this morning to give her reaction. She represents the Los Angeles district where much of the rioting took place. She said she opposed violence, but her constituents did have the right to express their anger.

REP. MAXINE WATERS, [D] California: I am angry. I am outraged. I think there has been a miscarriage of justice and I suppose I should have known once there was a change of venue and that trial was moved to basically an all white community, but I suppose I was foolish enough to believe that given the very graphic depiction of the beating of Rodney King captured on video that there would be an undeniable assignment of responsibility to those who had, in fact, beat him. Unfortunately, we saw a verdict that I have no problems in identifying as a racist verdict.

MR. LEHRER: The Rodney King verdict also sparked a violent demonstration today in Atlanta. About 100 young blacks marched to the state capitol building to protest the acquittal. Rocks were thrown and a woman was beaten on the steps of the state office building. Police in riot gear were at the scene. Demonstrations were also reported in Minneapolis, Cleveland, Topeka, Kansas, and several other cities. Most were peaceful. We'll devote the rest of the program after this News Summary to the Los Angeles story.

MR. MacNeil: In economic news today, the government reported a sharp increase in orders to the nation's factories. The March rise of 1.6 percent was the biggest in five months and the third straight gain. There was also a third straight rise in the government's main economic barometer; the Index of Leading Indicators edged up .2 percent last month. The gauge foreshadows economic activity over the next six to nine months. The first quarter of the year proved bumpy for the nation's No. 3 automaker. Chrysler said it lost $13 million for the period, but before the sale of some business interests and tax changes, the carmaker lost more than $1/4 billion during the three-month period.

MR. LEHRER: The Senate passed a congressional campaign finance reform bill today. It sets voluntary spending limits and some public financing of congressional elections among other things. President Bush opposes the public financing provision and has threatened to veto the whole bill. Today's vote was fifty- eight to forty-two, nine short of the two-thirds necessary to override a veto. The House today voted to overturn the so-called "gag rule" on abortion counseling at federally-funded family planning clinics. The rule was issued by the Reagan administration and upheld by the Supreme Court last May. Today's vote to overturn it was 268 to 150, also short of the two-thirds necessary to override a veto.

MR. MacNeil: Arab and Israeli negotiators continued their fifth round of peace talks today in Washington. An Israeli spokesman said serious negotiations took place over elections for the 1.7 million Arabs living in the Israeli-occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip. But a Palestinian representative said they had not made any genuine progress. The next round of peace talks is expected to take place in Rome this summer. The Bosnian capital of Sarajevo took another heavy pounding from Serbian artillery overnight. At least 20 people were killed. A Muslim suburb in the former Yugoslav republic was also struck, with a local mosque taking several direct hits. The attack came as European-sponsored peace talks appeared deadlocked.

MR. LEHRER: A white police captain was sentenced to death in South Africa today for ordering the murder of 11 blacks. We have a report narrated by David Simmons of Worldwide Television News.

MR. SIMMONS: They wait impatiently for the chance of a courtroom seat to witness sentencing in the landmark case. Despite repeated accusations of security force involvement in South Africa's black township violence, this was the first time policemen were convicted of a mass killing. President DeKlerk has suspended executions, but Police Captain Brown Mitchell was still sentenced to death for ordering the massacre of the township called Trust Feed. Mitchell, in a red shirt and jeans in these pictures, did not participate in the night-time killing of 11 people attending a funeral vigil, but he ordered it. The police attack was requested by the Conservative Inkatha Freedom Party. The victims were supporters of the rival, more militant, African National Congress. They included women and children. The massacre was carried out by four black constables under Mitchell's command. He also ordered them to burn down the house where the shootings took place. Once inside the court, each constable was sentenced to 15 years in prison. A relative of one massacre victim said the constables got off too lightly.

RELATIVE: Well, I think they deserve a death sentence, all of them, especially because they are policemen.

MR. SIMMONS: Mitchell will appeal his death sentence. His superior officers face a government inquiry.

MR. MacNeil: That's our summary of the news. Now, the Rodney King beating trial, how the "not guilty" verdicts were reached, the violent reaction, and what will answer it. FOCUS - BEATING THE RAP

MR. LEHRER: We devote the rest of the NewsHour tonight to the Rodney King verdict. And we begin with the trial, itself. The central piece of evidence, the videotaped beating, was seen repeatedly by millions of Americans, but the jury's verdict was based on seven weeks of evidence that included more than just that videotape. We'll go through it with lawyers from both sides and with two reporters who covered the trial after this backgrounder on the trial by Jeffrey Kaye of public station KCET-Los Angeles.

MR. KAYE: During the 29-day trial, attorneys on all sides played and replayed the 82-second videotape of the beating, often in slow motion. Although four officers stood trial, the defense was split.

JOHN BARNETT, Defense Attorney: And Officer Bresenio saw this metal hit Mr. King in the face. And when he saw that, when he saw the torrent of blows, he went over to Officer Powell, who was like this, poised to strike again. And he stopped it.

MR. KAYE: Officer Theodore Bresenio contended that he alone tried to stop the beating, which he described as out of control, and that when he stomped King once with his left foot, that was an attempt to prevent further baton blows. The other defendants contended King was attacking the police officers and presented experts to say the beating was justified, acceptable procedure, because, they said, King never complied with orders to get down.

ATTORNEY: Do you see Mr. King roll over on his back now, is that correct?

SPOKESMAN: Yes, I do.

ATTORNEY: All right. Did you consider that to be an aggressive movement?

SPOKESMAN: The fact that he rolled?

ATTORNEY: Yes.

SPOKESMAN: It could be.

MR. KAYE: Sgt. Stacey Koon was challenged on this point by Asst. Prosecutor Alan Yochelson.

ALAN YOCHELSON: So your answer is, he never kicked anybody, is that right?

SGT. STACEY KOON, Defendant: He did not kick anybody.

ALAN YOCHELSON: He never punched anybody, did he?

SGT. KOON: I'm not sure if he made physical contact with Officer Powell in the beginning, so I don't know if that was actually a punch or not.

ALAN YOCHELSON: You never saw him punch anybody, did he -- did you?

SGT. KOON: Not to my recollection.

ALAN YOCHELSON: And yet you characterized his actions as aggressive, is that right?

SGT. KOON: That's correct, sir.

MR. KAYE: Officer Laurence Powell said King's irrational behavior at the beginning of the incident convinced him that King was under the influence of PCP, a drug reputed to give its user super human strength.

OFFICER LAURENCE POWELL, Defendant: Took both hands down and turned his back towards our direction and grabbed his buttocks and started shaking them all around.

ATTORNEY: Now, when you said this to Officer Wind about dusted, what were you referring to?

OFFICER POWELL: That he was under the influence of PCP.

MR. KAYE: Doctors testified there was no evidence of PCP use and that King required 20 stitches to close serious injuries to his face and head. The prosecution argued the damage was caused by baton blows to the head. The defense said King's face was injured when it struck the pavement. The prosecution relied heavily on the videotape of the incident, while defendants argued their perspective was different.

OFFICER POWELL: There were times when he was kicking, not at me.

ATTORNEY: And you see this on the video?

OFFICER POWELL: No, I don't.

ATTORNEY: But the video is an accurate portrayal of what happened out there, isn't it?

OFFICER POWELL: It probably is, but it's not my memory.

MR. KAYE: In his closing argument, chief prosecutor Terry White once again referred to the video.

TERRY WHITE, Deputy District Attorney: This is a man in pain. You can clearly see that on the video. And yet, they continue to strike him again and again and again. And at some point you have to look at that video and say enough is enough.

MR. LEHRER: Now the perspectives of people who were in the courtroom for the seven weeks of the trial. Sylvester Monroe was there as a reporter for Time Magazine. We hope to be joined by him in a moment. Barbara Murphy is with us. She was there for the Los Angeles Daily News. Alan Yochelson, who we just saw on the videotape, is the deputy district attorney who prosecuted the case. We hope to be joined in a moment by Paul Debpesqualis, who was the attorney for Timothy Wind, one of the four police officers on trial. All of them are with us tonight from Los Angeles. The central question tonight, Ms. Murphy, for those who were not in the courtroom is simply: What did the jury see and hear besides that videotape that the rest of the world saw that caused them to return an innocent verdict?

MS. MURPHY: Well, I'm not sure I understand exactly why they returned the verdicts that they did but I think something that helped them in the trial that we who just watched it on TV didn't have the advantage of was seeing it at different speeds and having the defendants isolated on the tape so that there were four participants in this doing very different things at very different times, as opposed to what we saw when we saw it on TV, which was a flurry of blows and kicks. And I think when they separated them out, that helped them to break down what had happened and maybe justify it more than they otherwise would have.

MR. LEHRER: And what was the basic justification? I know, as you say, it was broken -- there were four defendants and each one of them did different things at different levels. But can you characterize what their general defense was?

MS. MURPHY: Well, the general defense of three of the defendants was that Rodney King was in control of the situation and that if he had just stopped at any time and complied with what he was asked to do, there would have been beating. The fourth defendant took the tact that there was excessive force used and he tried to stop it.

MR. LEHRER: All now what was the evidence that the jury saw that supported the defense premise that you just laid out?

MS. MURPHY: Well, I don't know exactly how the jury viewed it.

MR. LEHRER: No, you saw the same that the jury saw. What did they see that might have supported that contention?

MS. MURPHY: The defense brought in a use of force expert, a sergeant from Los Angeles Police Department, who broke down the videotape pretty much frame by frame, and instead of focusing on what the officers were doing focused on what King was doing and said, see, now he's moving, he's not complying; now his hands are moving; now his legs are moving. I don't know if the jurors believed that or not, but that took the focus off of the officers and put it on King.

MR. LEHRER: One of the jurors was quoted in one of -- there are two or three of them that apparently have spoken, but anonymously, in other words, without their names being attached to the story - - one of them said that she was particularly taken with the fact that they had been chasing King for eight miles at a high level, dangerous thing, and that there were two other men in the car with him. They got out peacefully and nothing happened to them. King, as you said, was still in control. And how was that story -- was that story laid out fairly convincingly? How was that story told?

MS. MURPHY: I think it was laid out somewhat convincingly. I think that that allowed the jurors to justify the beating, that for whatever reason if they thought that King deserved what happened to him and that helped justify it for them.

MR. LEHRER: On the grounds that he was acting violently and the only way he could be contained was with violence, which was the basic police response?

MS. MURPHY: On the grounds that he was a non-law abiding citizen. He wasn't doing what he was told and that the police officers in that situation are authorized to use some force.

MR. LEHRER: Yeah. Mr. Yochelson, looking at it from a prosecution point of view, what is your analysis of what -- now we're talking about 12 people who sat in that courtroom, along with you, Ms. Murphy, and many others, and what's your analysis of why they said those officers were not guilty?

MR. YOCHELSON: Unfortunately, the officers -- or excuse me, the jurors did not remain to discuss the matter with the attorneys. We've heard some of their views in the newspapers this morning. Deputy District Attorney Terry White and myself, who prosecuted the case, noted that they seemed to be looking for an excuse to acquit these officers and they apparently found it in the version of the evidence that was argued by the defense, or at least three of the defendants, namely that King was not cooperating and that this was all his fault. How we can reconcile that with what the fourth officer said, namely that these officers were out of control -- one of the other defendants was saying that -- is somewhat of a mystery to us, although I do note that one of the jurors mentioned that they did not believe what Officer Bresenio was saying.

MR. LEHRER: He was the officer that said his colleagues were out of control, right?

MR. YOCHELSON: That's correct. Now he, himself, delivered a fairly violent blow to Mr. King that kept this incident going. And that's why he was charged.

MR. LEHRER: Mr. Yochelson, why did you say just now that you think that the jury was looking for an excuse to acquit these officers? On what basis do you make that comment?

MR. YOCHELSON: Well, that's the problem. We can't really make that comment. We're guessing at that, because we really haven't discussed the matter with them. We believe very strongly in the case and we argued the case based on the evidence. They, obviously, reached a different decision. And that's the jury process that we respect and live with.

MR. LEHRER: Well, do you live with it and do you believe justice was done? I mean, this is -- from your perspective, was justice done?

MR. YOCHELSON: It's not appropriate for me to comment --

MR. LEHRER: Sure.

MR. YOCHELSON: -- on that in those terms. All I'll say is that we were disappointed in the verdict, but we respect the jury system. And we, of course, abide by the verdict.

MR. LEHRER: Have you had any post mortem sessions, you and your fellow prosecutors, to say, hey, wait a minute, what if we'd done this, or we should have done that, or whatever?

MR. YOCHELSON: We've spoken briefly about it. We haven't had a lot of opportunity to get together and talk about it. But in the limited discussions we've had, we both agree that we would not have done anything differently in retrospect.

MR. LEHRER: Well, what would yousay, Mr. Yochelson, to the people out there, not only in Los Angeles, who are more directly involved obviously, and with all the disturbances that are going out there, but there's a whole -- there are millions of other people throughout this country who have seen that videotape over and over and when that verdict came in last night, there was absolute disbelief about it?

MR. YOCHELSON: I understand that. I understand their frustration. I share their frustration and I share the disbelief. I ask everybody, however, to respect the process and to please work within the system to make some of the changes that are needed, some of the changes that were pointed out in this case.

MR. LEHRER: Ms. Murphy, much has been made about the fact that it was an all white jury. Do you have either anything based on your reporting or based on just sitting there, watching the jury operate, or any other basis to judge whether or not that was a factor in this verdict?

MS. MURPHY: Well, I don't think you can say for sure. It would surprise me if all 12 jurors had a racist motive for returning the verdict they did. And there might even be jurors who had that motive who don't even realize it. But I think that the place where the trial took place is a very law abiding community, when police lights go on, they pull their car over. And it might have been an inability to relate to someone that they felt was not obeying the law.

MR. LEHRER: Mr. Yochelson, explain to us non-lawyers how you and the prosecution permitted a jury of 12 people to be drawn in a case like this where race was at issue and all of them white, and no blacks on that jury?

MR. YOCHELSON: We argued that the case should remain and should have remained in Los Angeles County, because we believe that 12 impartial jurors could have been found there. Once the court of appeal ordered the case moved out of Los Angeles County, we asked that the court select a county that reflected the demographics of Los Angeles County. However, the prosecution has very limited rights in that regard. The decision was made over our objections to move it to Ventura County based on factors of cost and so forth. And once that happened, the jury panel, itself, reflected the demographics of Ventura County. And there are very few African- American persons in that county.

MR. LEHRER: Mr. Yochelson, I don't have to tell you, but trial lawyers make a big thing of psyching out juries, their backgrounds, just basic bios, flickers in the eyes, what a trial lawyer's gut tells him or her at any given time. Did you believe when you started this trial seven weeks ago from a prosecution's point of view that you had 12 people that were going to hear you out in a fair way?

MR. YOCHELSON: Yes, we did. The jurors went through an extensive selection process, including the filling out of a 30-page questionnaire. We looked through some two hundred, three hundred of these questionnaires, and we eventually settled on 12 people who we felt best could offer us a fair and impartial jury. And we felt going into this that we had a fighting chance.

MR. LEHRER: And the fact that there were no blacks on there you, did not believe that was going to necessarily, automatically result in the verdict that came in last night?

MR. YOCHELSON: No, we didn't.

MR. LEHRER: Yeah. What was your feeling about that, Ms. Murphy, when the thing began? I know it's hard to go back. We're sitting - - everybody's got hind sight and very little -- very few people have foresight. But looking back now as a reporter -- and you've covered a lot of trials -- when this thing began in that courtroom with 12 people, none of whom were black, the videotape and all of that, did it ever occur to you that they might -- these officers might be acquitted?

MS. MURPHY: No, back at the beginning it didn't occur to me that they might be acquitted. Incidentally, I live in Ventura County and have covered courts there. So I'm used to this type of jury make- up. And it didn't occur to me.

MR. LEHRER: Why? Based on your experience -- explain what you mean there.

MS. MURPHY: Well, this is the basic composition of most juries that you find in Ventura County. Although there's a large Latino population there, the juries tend to be white, Latino, and it's never really been, according to prosecutors and defense attorneys in Ventura County, my own observation, it's never tended to be a problem when the defendant was black, not a wholesale problem.

MR. LEHRER: Yeah. So you felt -- you agree with Mr. Yochelson that when the trial began that you felt that at least there was in place a "fair trial mechanism" for these four officers and for Rodney King?

MS. MURPHY: I thought so.

MR. LEHRER: Yeah, yeah. Have you changed your mind, based on this verdict?

MS. MURPHY: I was surprised by portions of the verdict.

MR. LEHRER: But generally, do you think justice was done, based on what you've heard and what you saw in that courtroom? Justice - - that's a bad word. Give me your impression of this verdict.

MS. MURPHY: I was surprised that none of the defendants was found guilty of something. I thought that two of them had a very good chance of getting off, but the other two surprised me.

MR. LEHRER: All right. Thank you very much. I'm sorry that Mr. Monroe and Mr. Debpesquali did not make it, but I thank you very much, Mr. Yochelson and Ms. Murphy, for having made it. Thank you very much. Robin. FOCUS - VIOLENCE BEGETS VIOLENCE

MR. MacNeil: Now what happened after yesterday's verdict. As we reported, the city of Los Angeles has continued to reel from violence and looting today. Officials have estimated the damage citywide would top $40 million. A dusk to dawn curfew has been called by Mayor Bradley. Correspondent Jeffrey Kaye has been in the streets of Los Angeles since the verdict was announced last night and here is his report.

MR. KAYE: These scenes of buildings engulfed in flames were reminiscent of the Watts riots of 1965. Hundred of fires were reported. Many were allowed to burn out of control because firefighters were spread too thin. They were also afraid to go in without police protection. Earlier in the day, at least four motorists were pulled from their cars and beaten. Angry crowds gathered in some locations. Despite the apocalyptic visions, most of the residential areas of South Los Angeles, LA's predominantly black area, was peaceful. Community members and leaders gathered at the First AME Church. Mayor Tom Bradley said he was outraged by the verdicts in the King beating case, but he also appealed for restraint.

MAYOR TOM BRADLEY, Los Angeles: I was shocked. I was stunned. I was -- I had my breath taken away by the verdict that was announced this afternoon. We have come tonight to say we have had enough. We encourage you to express your outrage and your anger verbally. We don't intend that any of you should go out and burn down any buildings or break out any windows.

MR. KAYE: Those words were not heeded by crowds who rampaged the Civic Center. Police appeared remarkably restrained, dispersing people but making few arrests. It appeared there was a conscious effort not to provoke any further violence. This morning, fires still raged in the South Los Angeles area and residents heard the grim statistics. As of noon, Los Angeles time, at least 13 dead, more than 200 injured, 1 firefighters shot in the neck. There was a much greater police presence on the streets today than there was yesterday. Police escorted weary firefighters who were overwhelmed by the immensity of their task.

MR. KAYE: [talking to firefighter] This is smoldering and you're leaving the scene, right?

PAUL EGIZI, Firefighter: Yeah, that's correct.

MR. KAYE: You wouldn't normally do that?

PAUL EGIZI: No. On a normal day, we would never leave something like this, but since, you know, we have so much activity going on right now what we want to do is just knock the fire down to protect the buildings next to it, just ensure that they don't start spreading.

MR. KAYE: And get on to the next one?

PAUL EGIZI: Exactly.

MR. KAYE: In some areas, anarchy and lawlessness prevailed. We saw brazen looting with no police in sight. They were deployed elsewhere. There seemed to be little pattern to the violence, though it did appear that Asian-owned businesses were special targets.

WOMAN: They shot all the windows. My mother -- they were back there -- they couldn't get out.

MR. KAYE: Are you afraid now?

WOMAN: Yeah. We're afraid they will come back tonight.

MR. KAYE: Although those participating in violence were in the minority, anger among residents was palpable.

MR. KAYE: What do you mean by this and what do the people who are honking their horns mean? What are you trying to say?

MALE RESIDENT: We're trying to make noise, okay. Noise brought you here. Noise brings the media here. Noise brings attention here. Upon making the noise, hopefully we can get some response.

MR. KAYE: Is this an endorsement of the violence that we've seen?

MALE RESIDENT: No, it is not.

2ND MALE RESIDENT: You do not see no one advocating violence here. We need to make some type of -- we need to make a statement. We need to have a different police department.

FEMALE RESIDENT: Just to do all of this to innocent people -- I mean, these people may be supporters of Rodney King as well as they are. They may not like what happened to Rodney King. And so when you're doing this, you're losing the support of the very thing that you need.

MR. KAYE: One official, State Senator Diane Watson, toured the area. She said the violence was caused by long-held grievances.

DIANE WATSON, California State Senator: The rage, the pent up rage over time, Reagan-Bush are just as responsible for what's happening here as the people who are lighting the fires. The 12 jurors made a costly error and this is emotion that you can't keep under wraps. These people here are serious about this. They burned out the Korean businesses because they can't keep their business open.

MR. KAYE: It's not just Korean.

DIANE WATSON: No. I said they burned out the Korean business right here. They burned out black businesses here. They're burning and they're looting because this is one way to vent their frustration. What we have to do is come up with a plan to bring economic viability back to our community.

MR. KAYE: Bus service was curtailed in the riot area. Sales of ammunition and guns were forbidden, nor could gasoline be sold in containers. Public schools were shut down in South Los Angeles, so many youths spent their time wandering the streets, among them 13- year-old Clifford Christmas.

CLIFFORD CHRISTMAS, Local Resident: I don't think the Rodney King trial was right. I think they should have pulled -- the cops guilty, but then again the black people shouldn't go terrorizing everything like they do. I don't think that's right either.

MR. KAYE: What are you doing today?

CLIFFORD CHRISTMAS: Just going around, watching everybody, watching all the stupid fools burning up everything and all that stuff.

MR. KAYE: Are you frightened?

CLIFFORD CHRISTMAS: Yeah. You know why?

MR. KAYE: Why? What do you think's going to happen?

CLIFFORD CHRISTMAS: They're probably going to burn up over my house or something's going to catch on my house or where my mother lives or somebody in my family might get hurt or something.

MR. KAYE: Are there people trying to stop this stuff from going on?

CLIFFORD CHRISTMAS: Not so far that I know of. There's not nobody trying to do nothing but the police and the police are so scared they come, they ain't doing nothin' about it theirself.

MR. KAYE: Tonight a dusk to dawn curfew was to take effect and the National Guard was expected to be out helping police patrol the streets.

MR. MacNeil: We have two views on the violence today. John Mack is president of the Urban League in Los Angeles. Bill Violante is president of the Police Protective League, the Los Angeles police officers union. Mr. Mack, what's your reaction to the violence we've been watching on this tape?

MR. MACK: Oh, I think the violence is a terrible tragedy. Unfortunately, it's the second tragedy that we've had to experience in the past 24 hours. The first was that totally unjustified jury verdict, on the one hand. But this violence, the burning, the looting, the indiscriminate destruction, is self-destructive. It's not going to lead anywhere. It's not going to reform the Los Angeles Police Department. It's not going to help Rodney King. And it needs to stop.

MR. MacNeil: Do you sense that it is about to stop, that is contained now?

MR. MACK: Well, I really have no way of knowing and I'm not sure that anybody has the answer to that. Frankly, we could only hope and pray. Obviously, the Los Angeles Police Department has beefed up its reinforcements. It has its plan in force. The National Guard is now on the scene. So clearly, there is a massive show of force from that standpoint. So I would hope that a combination of that and the appeal that so many of us have been making to every resident of not only South Central Los Angeles, a predominantly minority community, but the entire city that people cease and desist. We can only hope that a combination of those approaches will help and work.

MR. MacNeil: Mr. Violante, as a representative of a police union, what's your reaction to the violence in the streets?

MR. VIOLANTE: Well, we think it's an absolute tragedy. We're sitting here and we're all watching it. I just came back from Central Los Angeles a little while ago, myself. I talked to police officers and I talked to members of the community there. This is - - everybody has the right to protest, but in a democratic society that we have protest is supposed to be non-violent. There's no excuse for looting, fires, shooting at firefighters and police officers. That's just intolerable.

MR. MacNeil: I saw you quoted on another program today. Were you quoted correctly as saying that you thought Mayor Bradley was partly to blame for this?

MR. VIOLANTE: I believe that Mayor Bradley made a terrible mistake when the verdict came in and he announced to the community his feelings of outrage and unjust decisions. I think that his comments were inflammatory and they caused -- they create excitement in people and what he should have been doing is he should have said, we have to be calm now, we have to start the healing process, but he chose those words and not only did he choose that, then he also decided to politicize it right there in city hall and start talking about this charter amendment that's on the ballot. And I think that was absolutely unconscionable.

MR. MacNeil: Mr. Mack, what's your reaction to that?

MR. MACK: Well, I have a slightly different reaction. First of all, Bill has a slight political ax to grind with the mayor so think this is of course another opportunity to trash Tom Bradley. I think that the mayor was perfectly right and correct in expressing his outrage, because how could we be happy with that verdict? Maybe the Police Protective League was happy, but it was very apparent that people should be outraged and that clearly Mayor Bradley I think has exercised responsible leadership. He has called upon people to be peaceful, to not burn up the streets. He's made the point that that's not going to lead to the achievement of the kind of objectives that we're after. So really this is a -- just a bum rap that's another example of the kind of some of the political sub-plots that we have clouded the situation.

MR. MacNeil: Mr. Violante, what do the police feel about the verdict?

MR. VIOLANTE: Well, first of all --

MR. MacNeil: Were you and your fellow policemen surprised?

MR. VIOLANTE: I have to respond to something that Mr. Mack said. This -- this whole issue of what's happened here -- he and I sat on a program some 10 years ago when the mayor and the city council and the police commissioner removed a valuable tool from the police officers. They were called up for body control holds. And at that time, we told the mayor, we told the council, we told the commission, if you remove those holds and you don't replace it with any other tool, what you're going to have is you're going to have more incidents of use of the baton. And with more incidents of the use of the baton, it's going to be more violent and there are going to be more serious injuries. Nobody heeded a warning at that time. We have a problem here that goes beyond this. We have a real serious problem of reform that needs to take place. But that reform is not coming about.

MR. MacNeil: Now, what's your reaction to the verdict? Were you and some of the policemen surprised by the verdict as so many other people have been?

MR. VIOLANTE: I think what happened is the verdict -- it shouldn't be interpreted as approval of the manner in which the arrest of Rodney King occurred. It's rather a determination that the officers had limited options in affecting his arrest. Their actions were clearly without malice. The trial pointed out the officers' state of mind at the time of the incident. And it was pointed out by them that they believed that they had no other course of action. And the jury agreed with them.

MR. MacNeil: How do you -- what do you respond to that, Mr. Mack?

MR. MACK: Oh, I mean, I really could not differ more sharp -- but first of all, I think that this trial, this jury verdict was one of the most, one of the greatest miscarriages of justice and the history of our city, if not our nation. I think that the jurors could not past the biases. They could not get past the Simi Valley mentalities, which has already been indicated basically, a white community. They ignored the evidence, the videotape. They apparently bought into the defense attorney's argument that people were seeing mirages. They didn't really see what we saw. And Rodney King was beaten terribly. They ignored the evidence by LAPD commander Michael Bostik, who's the head of training, who testified that the behavior was beyond reasonable force. They -- the foreman even indicated the jury had made a basic decision that one day after the Friday -- with the exception of one point they got hung up on -- would suggest to me that they didn't want to be bothered with the facts. So I would say that we clearly have an example, and a regrettable experience of a jury comprised of people who could not relate to one of the important segments of our society. They could only see the police doing their jobs. Rodney King had no gun. Michael Bostik pointed out on at least four different occasions the videotape when Rodney King had been apprehended. He could have been arrested. The jury disregarded that.

MR. MacNeil: Mr. Violante, you just said a moment ago I thought that the verdict did not indicate the proper method of apprehending. That seems -- that doesn't seem to square with the -- with the acquittal. I don't know how you join the two things together.

MR. VIOLANTE: One of the biggest problems that we have -- and we've pointed this out from the beginning, from the onset of the incident after the Christopher Commission report was issued -- there are a number of problems that have to be addressed. There are reforms that need to take place within the Los Angeles Police Department. We have a police department that is not adequately staffed to handle the city the size of Los Angeles. We have -- we need better equipment. We need better training and better ongoing training programs. We need psychological testing programs. We need stress reduction programs.

MR. MacNeil: I think all of those are either in the works or are proposed for reform.

MR. VIOLANTE: Absolutely not. They're proposals, but it takes money to do these things. There is no money available. The mayor just came up with a budget where he's asked to reduce the size of the police department another 700 police officers. We are asking the police officers in the City of Los Angeles to do much, much more with less. We've been asking them to do that for year after year after year. That cause burnout. You can't do that. You need to come up with the money to adequately police the city. That's where the mayor has fallen down. That's where the politicians have fallen down. We need change, but we're not getting it and the way thing are going about right now is certainly not going to bring out the changes that are necessary.

MR. MACK: If I may briefly interject, we also need an end to brutality and racism within the Los Angeles Police Department, which was documented very extensively by the Christopher Commission report. And I believe that one of the real tragedies of that verdict out yesterday was that it unfortunately sends out a message to those officers. And I believe that the large majority of the 8300 men and women within LAPD are fine, dedicated public servants. But that hard core group that's guilty of brutality, it sent a message out that it's all right to be an African American man and get away --

MR. MacNeil: Gentlemen, gentlemen.

MR. VIOLANTE: It's only fair that I respond to that too.

MR. MacNeil: Let me get a point in here. It was being said before the trial and in the whole year that's gone on since the incident with Chief Gates' replacement and everything that the Rodney King affair would have the good effect or have the effect of a good effect finally on relations between the police in the community because it would look to some of the things both you gentlemen are talking about. Are you saying, Mr. Violante, you don't think it's going to have a good effect?

MR. VIOLANTE: What I'm saying is it's not going to take place because the politicians in this city are not putting their money where their mouth is. We talk a good talk. What we've done is we have now had a quick fix by putting a charter amendment on the ballot that's being sold to the people as police reform. It's not police reform. The things that are necessary are not going to take place. The council and the mayor refuse to find the money to do it. That's the problem here.

MR. MacNeil: Okay. And what is your feeling? Is this going to have a good effect finally on race relations and police behavior, Mr. Mack?

MR. MACK: Well, of course, the verdict doesn't help. The verdict, it was a major setback. I think that our real hope, frankly, for improving police/community relations are quite the contrary. We have two potential areas of hope. I believe the new chief designate, Willie Williams, is going to offer some positive new leadership. I hope that he is going to --

MR. MacNeil: Who is an African American.

MR. MACK: He's an African American, also an experienced police administrator, and I think he's also going to have the sensitivity to our very racially and ethnically diversified city. Secondly, I believe that the charter amendment F that Mr. Violante is opposing will do just the opposite. I believe that for the first time we have an opportunity if voters vote yes on June 2nd to bring about the kind of long-term reform that will really -- the key is accountability.

MR. MacNeil: Okay. Gentlemen, in the meantime your city or parts of it are still burning and there is still the threat of more violence. Mr. Mack, as a representative of the African American community there, how do you respond to the suggestions you just heard from State Senate Diane Watson that Reagan and Bush bear responsibility for this, that what these people are reacting to, using this an excuse to release 10 years of pent up rage for economic circumstances, she said?

MR. MACK: Well, I'm not going to blame Reagan and Bush for the looting and the rioting. But I would agree that there's been a lack of sensitivity and commitment for the past decade under the Reagan- Bush administration and toward some of the basic problems that go beyond law enforcement, major unemployment, serious lack of business development, housing problems, the whole range of issues.

MR. MacNeil: And does that explain what you're seeing in the streets of LA tonight?

MR. MACK: No, no. It doesn't. But I'll tell you what it does do. It really points out the fact that we have some serious social problems in our community that have not been adequately addressed at the local or federal level. I am in no way condoning the burning, the looting that's occurring on these streets. I join completely with Mr. Violante and all the others in saying that it needs to stop and I do not believe that it's going to help our agenda. As a matter of fact, a group of us -- there are 15 African American churches and organizations where black men are going to be on the streets to do whatever they can to help alleviate the situation and we want to stop it, because that doesn't help the agenda.

MR. MacNeil: If you'll stay with us a moment, gentlemen, we want to move on to the possibility of a federal case against the four police officers. After meeting with President Bush, Attorney General William Barr told reporters today that yesterday's verdicts are not the end of the legal process.

WILLIAM BARR, U.S. Attorney General: We have now moved forward with our own federal complete investigation of this incident to determine whether there has been a violation of federal civil rights statutes. We began that process last night immediately after the verdicts were returned. That investigation will be carried out jointly by the Los Angeles United States Attorney's office, the Civil Rights Division, and the FBI. And I have instructed them to complete this review as quickly as possible.

REPORTER: On what grounds would you pursue this case? What constitutes civil rights violations?

MR. BARR: The statutes of particular relevance here are 18USC- 241 and 18USC-242. 18USC-241 prohibits a conspiracy to deprive someone of their constitutional rights. Section 242 prohibits depravation of constitutional rights under color of law, including under color of state law. Those are the two relevant statutes.

REPORTER: Could you explain that and how you could prosecute under civil rights law the way they've been cleared criminally.

MR. BARR: There are -- nothing in the state process is binding on us federally. There are two different sovereigns and so there is no issue of double jeopardy here. What we are looking at is whether there was intentional infliction of excessive force, which may constitute a violation of the civil rights laws.

MR. MacNeil: Mr. Yochelson, as the prosecutor who failed to secure a conviction in the state court, how did you feel about the Attorney General's statement?

MR. YOCHELSON: I agree completely with his analysis of the law and I welcome his or the federal government's intervention in this area. I welcome this investigation.

MR. MacNeil: Does that mean that you see no future, no other course in through the state courts?

MR. YOCHELSON: Because of the actions yesterday, we are precluded from proceeding on any of these charges, with the exception of the one remaining count that the jury deadlocked on. We have not made a decision, frankly, as to whether or not we should proceed on that. That'll be made in the next couple of weeks.

MR. MacNeil: Mr. Violante, what is your reaction to what the Attorney General said?

MR. VIOLANTE: Well, first of all, in response to the charge that the jury was hung up on, any other trial when you have four votes for and eight votes against, there's never a refiling of the case, so if such a thing would happen, we believe it would absolutely be politically motivated. As far as the --

MR. MacNeil: Let me just go back to the prosecutor on that. What's your response, Mr. Yochelson, to that charge that has just been made?

MR. YOCHELSON: I am not sure what Mr. Violante's involvement has been in the criminal justice system. Cases are retried when there is a split four to eight or whatever. There is no magic number here. This decision will be based upon what we believe the evidence will show in another case, in another prosecution, and what we believe the chances are of reasonably securing a conviction. This is not going to be based upon political decisions.

MR. MacNeil: Mr. Violante, what is your reaction to the Attorney General's statement about a possibility -- about the federal investigation?

MR. VIOLANTE: I think that those similar allegations were brought forth in the criminal trial. They were not proved there. If a case is filed, these officers will certainly have attorneys on hand to defend them.

MR. MacNeil: Mr. Mack, how did you respond to what the Attorney General said?

MR. MACK: Oh, I welcome it, quite frankly, as you know, obviously, I felt that they should have been found guilty on the criminal charges and clearly, we believe that since racism was an aspect of this entire incident, I think that it's a good move and I wish them success. And I just might add that I find it interesting that Mr. Violante always has his response that apparently anything that goes against one of the city's most political organizations is "political."

MR. MacNeil: Yeah. Mr. Violante.

MR. VIOLANTE: You know, the police officers in the city of Los Angeles don't like that they have to be involved in the political process. The politicians set it up this way. I object to broad brushing police officers as being racist. And I don't think that that was pointed out in the Christopher Commission report at all. That's like saying that everybody that lives in South Central Los Angeles is burning and looting right now. And that's not fair.

MR. MACK: I'm sorry, I'm talking about four police officers, not eighty-three hundred here. That's the point.

MR. MacNeil: Mr. Mack, what effect do you think the news as far as the administration has gone and the Justice Department today, what effect will that have on subduing the anger of African Americans, particularly in the areas of Los Angeles where they are rioting and looting?

MR. MACK: Well, regrettably -- and this is where I've been trying to agree from a different standpoint with Sen. Diane Watson's point -- regrettably, I don't think the administration has very much credibility with most African Americans and most minority people and most poor people. So it's an nice statement. I believe that this program -- this problem is going to be solved at the local level.

MR. MacNeil: Yeah. Well, I mean, are you going to -- are you going to go out and say to people, hey, cool it, because however outraged you are, the federal government is now going to come in and look into any possible violation of the civil rights of Rodney King?

MR. MACK: Well, you know, we will point out that that's one avenue and that's what I did all last night. We had 1200 people at First AME Church and that's what a whole bunch of us were saying. On the one hand, we're outraged, but also we must move ahead and clearly this action, as I indicated previously, the approach by the federal prosecution looking into the civil rights, possible civil rights violations, is certainly one thing that we applaud and we will encourage. Our point was from another standpoint, a statement by President Bush is not going to have much of an impact, but I think certainly this is one other avenue that we welcome and we hope will help make a difference in the total scheme of things.

MR. MacNeil: Mr. Yochelson, knowing the Los Angeles scene, do you think that the Attorney General's statement is going to help take the heat out of the situation there?

MR. YOCHELSON: I hope so. I want to encourage everybody who is feeling the frustration of these verdicts to please work within the system and allow the system to take its course. And I hope that this does have some effect.

MR. MacNeil: What do you think about that, Mr. Violante? Is --

MR. VIOLANTE: I think something is being overlooked here. And it's important to remember that there were two other gentlemen in the car with Mr. King. They were taken into custody without incident because they complied with the officers' direction. And I think we're overlooking that and that's pretty sad.

MR. MacNeil: Well, I don't see how that relates to the -- it was mentioned in the -- in our earlier part of the coverage -- but how does that relate to the question of the Justice Department --

MR. VIOLANTE: Well, I've already responded. The officers will have people there to defend them. What I'm responding to is a comment that was made about these four officers and the fact of what they did. And I think it's important to realize that there were two other gentlemen in the car and those people were taken into custody without incident at all.

MR. MacNeil: Well, what does that mean in the case of Mr. King though? What does that signify in the case of Mr. King?

MR. VIOLANTE: I think it shows that Mr. King's actions, as it was pointed out in the trial, caused reactions by the police officers and they pointed out the training and their experience and what was going through their mind at the time and the jury agreed with them, and said that they were not guilty.

MR. MacNeil: Mr. Mack, did you and other black leaders in Los Angeles appeal today or last night for some federal intervention to help cool this?

MR. MACK: No. Mayor Bradley did. We -- our appeal was directly - -

MR. MacNeil: And Congresswoman Waters.

MR. MACK: Yes, Waters did.

MR. MacNeil: But what about you at the community level?

MR. MACK: Our -- no, our appeal -- all of our appeals last night, frankly, was to our constituents to please keep the peace, please stop the looting and the burning, and of course, we re-emphasized our strong commitment to the charter amendment that we've already discussed and we talked about frankly one of the other areas that we're going to press forward on and that is now to demand that the police department now take disciplinary action. And we are urging that those three officers be fired. With the exception of Timothy Wind, discipline was put on "hold" for the other three so we think that that needs to be put back on the front burner. So we're going to be focusing in areas such as that at the local level.

MR. MacNeil: How do you think the three officers who were acquitted should be treated, Mr. Violante?

MR. VIOLANTE: Well, the system that we have in place right now, a system that's worked very well since 1935, gives the officers a board of rights hearing and those officers will be brought before a board of rights, they will present their case and their evidence and a determination will be made as to what happens to them at that time.

MR. MacNeil: All right. Well, Mr. Violante, Mr. Mack, and Mr. Yochelson, thank you all for joining us. RECAP

MR. LEHRER: Again, in addition to the Los Angeles story this Thursday, the federal government reported a 1.6 percent increase in orders to the nation's factories. There was also a .2 percent rise in the Index of Leading Economic Indicators. And Arab and Israeli negotiators ended the latest round of Middle East peace talks in Washington. The Israeli side reported serious negotiations on holding elections for Arabs in the occupied territories. But the Palestinians said no real progress was made. Good night, Robin.

MR. MacNeil: Good night, Jim. That's the NewsHour tonight. We'll be back tomorrow night with the political week that was with Gergen & Shields. I'm Robert MacNeil. Good night.