American Experience; Freedom Riders; Interview with Jerry Ivor Moore, 2 of 4

the reason, yeah, ?a little heartfelt? I knew that, uh, there was a possibility that we could be killed most likely, um, possibly arrested. I had in mind I remember Emmett Till and the fact that, uh, a couple people were missing You know, I figure that was a possibility and, uh, but somebody had to go and somebody had to ?inaudible? Talk about the feeling, your feeling when you go back, how you felt when you got on the bus the first day felt when i was the first i was concerned about the I felt good that we were going, and I was kind of, I don't know if I can really break it down. It was-- 'cause it was kind of not being sure what was going to happen but I knew it was important. Also was worried about what mom was going to say because she'd asked me not to go and I hadn't said that I would go,

and I knew that my parents were going to know soon. But it was a feeling, comradeship for the cause we were going, yeah. [Interviewer] I'm going to ask you that again, why don't you give me the answer, don't talk about your mom. [Moore] Well it was just what was on my mind. [laughs] [Interviewer] But talk about the fact that you knew it was important if that's something you want to talk about, because we have pictures of people getting on the bus and we want to know what was in their heart, what did you feel that first day? What did you feel like that first day getting on the bus? [Moore] The first day getting on the bus I felt like a couple things, I felt good, we were going to do a good thing. I didn't know what we would face or when we would face what we were gonna face, I didn't think too much about

how I felt about that, it was, we were together, it was comradeship, it was a good cause. We were going for the movement, we were going for the people, we were going for this country for the democratic ideals and principles of freedom, liberty. [Interviewer] So you felt good? [Moore] Basically I felt good, I felt good. I wasn't overjoyed like kicking up my feet and stuff but it was a good feeling, it was a good feeling. And I felt like I was with a group of people that I liked and had respect for. [Interviewer] Were you scared? [Moore] No. [Interviewer] Why not? [Moore] Guess it wasn't a time to be afraid. [Interviewer] Again, my question isn't going to be there so you have to say "I wasn't scared because." [Moore] At the time we got on the bus I wasn't

afraid, I don't know what word would describe it, I knew that there was a possibility of-- I knew what the possibilities were but I wasn't afraid. Wasn't afraid of the possibilities. I want to say that again. [blows nose] Yeah, without the emotion. [Interviewer] Go ahead and take the tissue out of your hand. Nothing in your hand. [Moore] Starting this, "I wasn't afraid." [Interviewer] That first day. [Moore] The first day getting on the bus I wasn't

afraid. I knew what the possibilities were and I knew what really what the possibilities were. All that ran through my mind but I wasn't afraid of the possibilities. [Interviewer] Why? [Moore] Whether it was jail or-- we were going to go to jail and I don't know if you're going to understand this but we decided to give ourselves for this cause. And that meant whether it was jailed, beating, killed, getting killed, whatever. And I don't know why I didn't feel afraid yet. [Interviewer] Great. One of the things I've always wondered is kind of what was on your mind before you meet any kind of violence. You're kind of going through the south, you're looking out the window and you're seeing the countryside go by, what was that part of the trip like? [Moore] It was great it was like all the movies you watch with the scenery rolling by. And

riding buses and you're going to this thing. But along the way, it's almost like in the back of your head, you have the songs going, and then along the way we stopped, before we actually got there, we stopped and people are encouraging us and we got to share with people what we were doing, why we were doing. What was the question? [laughs] [Interviewer] Yeah, we didn't kind of get to the-- I just want to-- you know, just give me the what you were thinking and how it felt as you were traveling through the south, so we're seeing a picture of a bus go through, we're out the window, we're seeing the landscape go by, talk about what you were thinking and feeling just before there were any troubles, what's happening? [Moore] When we were riding,

going down, you watched the scenery, and the buses are rolling, stuff. I remember I ended up writing a lot about where we were going, why we were going, and going for the cause, the struggle, and that if need be to die for the cause. [Interviewer] Do you remember what you wrote, any of what you wrote? [Moore] You know I don't really remember what I wrote. I know when the Klansmen got a hold of it and pointed me out, I figured I was toast, that was it for me. [Interviewer] How'd the landscape look? Was it pretty? Beautiful, ugly? How'd the land look as you were driving down the south? [Moore] I don't remember how the land looked. It was just general, like I always used to-- liked riding in cars and vehicles and seeing the hills and mountains, grass, trees, other cars going by, the road, just seeing, so it was

like that, it was like that. I don't think I was thinking about how beautiful it was or I wasn't even thinking about where we were going. Just at that point when we were riding and knew where we were headed and just, it was like-- We were headed to test something, places, and headed to do a job. I don't want to say "do a job," but we had a cause, had a purpose and that was the focus and I wasn't mulling that over in my mind too much outside of writing this kind of romantic poetry about the cause or going and living for the cause, dying for the cause, how important

the struggle was, in the hopes of setting people free, in bringing change, and that was it. We actually argued about who would get to go to jail in different places. [Interviewer] So in some ways you weren't even noticing the landscape, you can tell me that. [Moore] Well I wasn't really noticing the landscape, it was going by, but I wasn't focused on it. I wasn't adding that up, pictures in my mind, I guess it was already where I was going. You know what I mean? You have your purpose and you have your destination and you're, then your body, you're just physically moving to it. [inaudible] Probably not

going to be much, I remember I was happy to see Martin Luther King show up and I was just happy to see him and the people that were with him. And I think the thing that stood out to me most was when we were leaving. When we were leaving Atlanta he was there to see us off. That stood out to me. [Interviewer] Some people have said that Martin Luther King kind of warned the group that things didn't look good in Alabama, do you remember any of that? [Moore] No, the first warning I had was when this Klansman said that the bus had been burned and he said "you niggers going to get it,"

in Anniston. And then Peck came up and mentioned that the bus had been burned and said "don't test the places that aren't picked to be tested." What I did notice when we were with King was there was two guys that were sitting on a stool, that after we left, boarded bus, because he sat behind me, which was the guy, turned out to be a Klansman, one guy was a Nazi party guy. [Interviewer] Let's cut for a second. [cut] On the night before you all are going into Alabama, you're going into the deepest south now, we hear that Farmer has to leave. What was your feeling about that? [Moore] I don't remember exactly when I heard that Farmer had to leave or wouldn't be on the trip, or that he wasn't on the trip, it might have been

right when we were getting on the buses. I think my first reaction was kind of a question but then someone just broke it down to me that they felt that they really wanted to get their hands, the Klan, they really wanted to get their hands on Farmer so it was just better that he wouldn't be there. But then I heard that his father had died and he had to leave because of death in the family so it was a combination of those two things, I don't know. [Interviewer] Want to talk a little bit about, one of the things that you said-- [cut] First how did you feel, tell me the story about that day, that time as much as you can remember, as the bus first starts pulling into Birmingham, what

you saw, what you heard, what you smelled, they say that smell is one of the greatest of memories, what you felt. What was it that you felt as that bus is pulling into Birmingham? [Moore] As the bus was pulling into Birmingham-- did I mess it up? [Interviewer] No, you were fine, start again. [Moore] When the bus was pulling into Birmingham, I was feeling a little heartbroken that these guys were yelling that we were commies and socialists so as everybody was getting off the bus, saw Dr. Bergman had gotten off, and Peck, and Person was supposed to test in Birmingham so they got off and went straight down and as I was getting off the bus I saw the crowd that was like everybody was like a crowd of people, they were all standing there, the heads, and Simeon Booker was a reporter that had been riding on the bus with us

and people were running back and forth, these guys running into like the terminal, there was a hallway leading down into the bus terminal and the guys had these different things, pipes, club, and different stuff so they were running by and when I got off the bus I was still kind of cool and then my eyes met Booker's and when he looked away my guts shook it was just-- he looked at me and I don't know whether I couldn't say it was pity or anything in his eyes, but just my guts reacted. But immediately after that I turned and we started down. [Interviewer] Then what happened?

[Moore] I have to blow my nose. Okay. You're saying don't hold this, right? Okay, I'm going to start when I got off the bus, and I'll talk faster because I'm slow. Okay, when I was getting off the bus all the people that had been on the bus before us were out in the crowd. There were guys running by, they had bats and pipes and all kind of stuff and they were running into this hallway so the crowd was there like Booker and Dr. Bergman and his wife that were part of the Freedom Ride group and everybody was part of this crowd that had been standing on the side, so when I got off the bus, when I walked off the bus, I took that step off and looked at Booker who was a reporter, he was either doing it for Jet or Ebony,

when our eyes met and he looked away, it just, my guts, my very guts shook. And I just turned after that, started down the hallway. [Interviewer] And then what happened? [Moore] Ok. As I-- so people were running by, these guys were running by, a lot of them had white t-shirts on, and it was like a gauntlet set up I could see something at the end of this hall was going on, which turns out to be that's where they were beating Peck and Charles Person, and these guys were lined up on both sides and I remember Herman and I started down and there was this guy, as best I can recollect,

I'm sure it was a pipe that he had, and it looks like what happened at the time a flashbulb went off, and I believe the flashbulb may have saved my life because they turned on the reporter. So then they turned on the reporter and but before, as we were starting to walk down, this guy came running out and he'd gone in, I guess he was meeting his wife, she'd been on the bus, and because he had a suit so he came running out and I remember he was cut across the forehead and he was bleeding and he had been through ripping his clothes off and stuff, and he was running and these guys were chasing him, and that's when-- so he ran one way, then the other way, then we went down, started down, that's when the flashbulb went off and they turned on the guy. The next thing I remember was standing outside and I don't remember seeing any people at that point, but

I remember that Herman and I, Herman was a big guy, played tackle, and so Herman and I were standing together looking back and these guys now were starting to run, you could hear the police, the sirens were going off, the police were coming, and so these guys are running, and there was a brother who worked there, I guess because he had this gray uniform on that they wore at the bus stop, he came running out and he saw Herman and I standing there, two big guys, so he stopped, and he turned around and one guy as he's standing there, goes by and hit him. And I know it's not funny but it's kind of funny, it was like a little relief 'cause what happened when he got hit in the nose when he turned around, the way he looked up at us, he was in shock, but-- [Interviewer] Let's cut. Do you know what I mean, I just want you to tell [cut] again we're going to roll. Okay, so-- [Moore] So when the bus

pulled into Birmingham, on the bus we kind of all re-situated because they were beating on everybody and these guys were screaming and yelling about commies and socialists and how we were really going to get it, so they got off the bus and they kind of disappeared, the guy with the pistol disappeared and so Dr. Bergman and Simeon Booker, who was a reporter traveling with us, he and some of the others, there was like a crowd, not just people off our bus, but there were other people there, but they weren't part of this group that was running by with bats and chains and pipes and stuff and they were running into this-- [Interviewer] Let's cut. Okay. [Moore] So when we're getting off the bus, I looked up at Simeon Booker, he was standing in the crowd, this group of people from the bus, and when his eyes met mine, the way he looked away my stomach just jumped man, it was twisted, I don't know, but I just turned at

that point and started down to this hallway going into the the restaurant, the restrooms and stuff, where they were already beating Peck and Charles Person because they had gone directly into the-- I'll start again-- [Interviewer] How did you feel? Did you see them beating Peck and Person? [Moore] Not really, because from where I was, I could see that-- well you knew that's what was happening because there were so many guys in there. [Interviewer] How did-- tell me what you saw. What did you see? [Moore] We saw a bunch of guys at the end. Mostly I was-- at the end, where we figured Peck and-- we heard all this noise so you could tell they were beating the guys there. But mostly I guess what I saw was the guys I had to now walk through, 'cause Herman and I, we started walking in, and it was like a gauntlet, it was like a gauntlet set up because there were people on both sides, guys on both sides, and there was a little rise so they were standing up so they had height on us, they were standing up,

would have been over us. When it started down, there was one guy I remember this guy raised whatever he had in his hand, but a flashbulb went off and when the bulb went off they turned on the guy, the reporter, and basically that saved my life, I believe that saved my life at that point and the next thing that happened was we, Herman and I were standing outside and you hear the sirens, police sirens started going off, because the cops were coming, so these guys that were doing all the beatings, they started scattering, they were running, they were splitting, I don't know what had happened to the crowd of people that had been on the bus there when we first got off the bus, they were gone, so Herman and I were standing there and these guys were running by us and then there was a brother that worked there, he came running out, and he looked up he saw these two big football players and so he stopped, turned around, and there

was some guy running by punched him, and he had this look on his face when he turned around, the shock, which I guess was sort of like in a way weird way a relief or release of all the tension and I wonder if I hallucinated him. [Interviewer] Talk about the mood. What was the mood of the crowd? Talk about the mood, what were they saying, what was the mood of the crowd? [Moore] The crowd, okay. It wasn't the crowd making the noise-- [Interviewer] Who was making the noise? [Moore] The guys, the Klansmen. [Interviewer] To me that's-- [Moore] The crowd wasn't saying anything because they were basically, they had been forced into this position, they were just standing there, they weren't yelling anything, they weren't saying not a-- [Interviewer] What was the mood of the Klansmen and what were the Klansmen saying? [Moore] I don't know what they were saying. On the bus I know what they were saying, they were saying-- you don't want to see the bus. Getting off the bus they were telling us that we

were going to get it. Getting off the bus these guys were letting us know that they were going to get us, and these guys were running into the the hallway where they'd started beating Peck and Charles Person and as we walked down, you know what, maybe I went into silence mode or something like the movies where I didn't hear anything because I don't remember hearing anything except when I heard the sirens, it's like the sirens broke through. So at that point when that guy was-- that little gauntlet those guys standing there, I don't remember them yelling anything at me or anything in-- and I don't feel like when people say "moving through molasses" but maybe that's what they mean. But we were just going in, that's what we were supposed to do. Even though Peck and Person were the ones that were testing, I guess

the fact that they had been attacked, I guess wasn't if I think back now, I wasn't really supposed to even be going in there, because they were the ones-- different people were designated to test. [Interviewer] You said that your gut jumped. Why? [Moore] I don't know, when he looked away from me, I don't know what he communicated to my spirit but that was the first thing I guess I wouldn't call it fear, but it was more than fear. Because I'd been in situations where there was fear or afraid of death and stuff, been threatened before so this was something else, my stomach actually jumped. My intestines really just jumped. And I think the feeling, I think it was because I got the feeling that

he must have thought we were finished, we were doomed. And I think that's what that look communicated. [silence] [background noise] [Interviewer] I'd like to kind of start over and-- What I'm trying to get-- [inaudible] [background noise] Go ahead. [Moore] So when we got off the bus Peck and Persons, they were supposed to test in Birmingham so they started down the, kind of the runway into, going into the bus terminal and as I was getting off the bus there were still guys running down there, I guess there was Klan guys, whatever

this new organization they had come up with. And these guys had bats and chains and pipes and stuff and so when I got off the bus this whole melee, I guess is the word to use, had started where these guys had already started beating Peck and Charles Persons and it just looked like more guys were running to join the beating and meanwhile when I got off the bus Simeon Booker who was a news reporter with us, when he looked at me, our eyes met, he looked away and my guts just shook, it was like I guess because it was almost like he felt so sorry for me or so sorry for us and I guess it was a feeling that we're finished, it was like "we're probably going to get killed," whatever. And at that point I just turned and started down,

started toward the entrance to this hallway, to this gauntlet, and there were guys standing up on the left and on the right, and they had pipes and chains and bats, whatever they had, and so we started to walk down and I remember this guy raising his arm and this flash bulb went off, I don't know where it was, I don't know where the reporter was, but I know that these guys-- they switched, they turned on this reporter, and I guess it basically saved my life, it may have saved Herman and I, this reporter. And next thing was we were standing outside and the sirens went off, there was a period where I-- I don't remember hearing anything or anything I just know that suddenly I heard the sirens and the people that had been standing outside from the bus, I didn't see them, and Herman and I were just standing out there together and looking back into the place

and these guys had started running, the guys that had doing all the beating, they had started running, leaving the scene, and this brother ran out that I guess worked at the-- [Interviewer] I don't need that story again. [Moore] No?