American Experience; Freedom Riders; Interview with Jerry Ivor Moore, 3 of 4

[Interviewer] Ok, talk about the photographer. [Moore] So anyways the-- just right now? So anyways, Herman and I started down the hallway into the terminal where the beating was going on and these guys were standing on the left and on the right and they had the pipes and whatever and we started in and it's like this guy, I saw him raise his arm, and what happened was this flash bulb went off, it was a flashbulb, a reporter and they turned on the reporter, all these guys, they just turned on the reporter and I guess that saved our lives. Then all of a sudden the next thing you heard is the sirens going off and people started scattering, they were running, trying to get out of there and stuff. [Interviewer] Cut. Go ahead. [Moore] From Booker or after Booker? [Interviewer] After Booker, tell me about the person (inaudible) [Moore] Hmm? [Interviewer] Tell me about Person and Peck.

[Moore] Charles Person, after we turned to start down-- Charles Person and James Peck had already gone into test the terminal, even all this stuff was happening, guys were running through, they just had gone in there, lot of guts, lot of heart, they went in and these guys are all over them. [Interviewer] What do you mean? [Moore] Just beating them, everything. You know, I didn't have a real clear shot because it was less than, 25, 30 yards distance in going down, and it got-- because it was like a runway and a tunnel, it was a little darker at the end before the entrance but you could just see that these guys were all over them, and that there was just a crowd and actually some of the guys who had been running past us running into there, some of them went straight down, straight down trying to get in on

it. They took quite a beating, you know. [Interviewer] How did you know that there was trouble with Person and Peck? How did you know? [Moore] How did I know? [Interviewer] Mm-hmm. That they were in trouble. [Moore] Well it was easy to see that they hadn't been able to get into the terminal to test because these guys had blocked off basically the doors to the bus station and had confronted them there and those guys were-- they saw a white guy standing with a black man, that was it, I guess just crazy like seeing red for a bull, so they were just all over them, and that was the purpose they were there, they were supposed to put the fear of the Klan into the nation. And we were supposed to be the example. [Interviewer] Were you afraid?

[Moore] Once I got past Booker, I wasn't. Once-- that was the only point where I felt like-- I guess close to fear or something, but then it was just you turn and it was like you take your fear or whatever it is and you just go with it. It was, how did I feel? At that point you set it aside. And you just go. [Interviewer] What did you feel about the kind of vehemence, of the anger that these guys had, you guys were just trying to sit next to each other on a bus, talk about that. These guys were angry. [laughs] [Moore] Yeah. They were really, they were really angry, they were really upset. It was serious for them, but it always puzzled me, it always puzzled me, I didn't really totally understood racism, that kind of racism, to the point,

I knew that if you didn't like somebody, don't be involved with them, but the point of keeping people down or needing to keep people down or-- I didn't understand it. I always thought, I took the position that they were misguided, they were just misguided. [Interviewer] Do you remember, I'm going to go past the riot, do you remember the decision to continue the ride after Birmingham, I mean Peck is messed up, talk about the decision to continue, do you remember that? [Moore] Yeah, I know that I couldn't see how we could not continue. There's no way you can't continue, you couldn't let them stop you, you couldn't let them stop you. And as a matter of fact, we were

still, Herman and I were still debating about who was going to get to test in Mississippi. [Interviewer] Do you remember the-- [Moore] The actual debate? [Interviewer] The vote, I mean how was it decided to continue? [Moore] I don't remember that. I remember we were at Shuttlesworth's, at the church and there had been a rally and there was a discussion and I do remember expressing my feeling that we had to go on and that's where Herman was coming from. That's where I think the majority of the people were coming from. Just couldn't see not going, how could we stop? If we got to Montgomery, King was waiting for us to get to Montgomery, there was going to be rallies there, there were people along the way that either would join or would be supportive. [Interviewer] You said that you had to continue. Why? [Moore] You just

couldn't let it-- we had to continue because we had a cause and a purpose and we couldn't let segregation win, you couldn't let a little violence stop us. It was a cause and we were serious about this cause. It had been too many years of suffering, too many lynchings, too many murders, so it had to be done, it had to be done whatever the cost, whatever the price. At least that's what I felt and I think that's what quite a few of us felt. [Interviewer] You mentioned to Lorenzo in talking to you earlier, that the Ku Klux Klan and the cops would talk together about what they were going to do to you when you were stuck in the bus terminal in Birmingham, afterwards. So the next day after this you're stuck there and they would talk about-- do you remember mentioning that? [Moore] That was, that's something that came out that

Bull Connor had promised the Klan x amount of minutes [Interviewer] We don't want to talk about that. So the next day [cut] --be what happens next? [Moore] We were at the bus station and the crowd started gathering and I remember really clearly there was this one guy, kind of tall, thin, with the t-shirt, everybody had their white t-shirts rolled up with the cigarette pack and sleeve, and he and his girlfriend, might have been his wife, but they were in their late 20s, early 30s, and I remember they were screaming and yelling, man, and how the cops had to pull them out. But the main thing was the bus drivers decided that they were not gonna take us out. That they were not going to drive the Greyhound or the Trailways, the bus drivers refused to take us

on the buses and we were just waiting, a crowd was gathering, and then this thing happened where decided that they were going to have to fly us out. [Interviewer] Okay, let's cut. Sorry Jerry, but you can't give me a set-up [Moore] Yeah. [Interviewer] You guys take this massive beating, some of you take this massive beating, never seen anything like it, a lot of you, in Birmingham, and then the next day you decided to continue and the next day you go to the Birmingham bus station, talk about what was going on there. [Moore] So the next day we are-- we go to the bus station, the bus terminal, they get us there, and so we're thinking we're going to get out, we're headed to Montgomery, we're going to meet up with Dr. King and his people and it's going to be this great rally and everything except the bus drivers decided they're not going to take us. They're not going to take us no matter what anybody says. The police are there because a crowd is starting to gather and it was getting tense, it was getting

tense 'cause it kind of looked almost like Anniston with the big crowd of people and it looked like trouble could happen, I think the cops were feeling, they were kind of pressuring people saying that things could happen, it could get out of control and some of the Riders, there was a lot of tension. So some people were beginning to feel and and begin to react to that. [Interviewer] What do you mean? Some people were beginning to feel it and beginning to react? [Moore] Some people were-- some of the Riders were beginning to feel a little edgy. Didn't know what was going to happen, whether-- anything was possible right then, right there, and some people were getting a little edgy. Doing kind of little funny things. And I remember somebody, even one of the riders, even, suggested we needed to

do a little sit-in right there in the bus terminal. [Interviewer] Let's get a little closer. So you're saying that in some ways the pressure was starting to really get to people at that point, some people? [Moore] Yeah. [Interviewer] So tell me that. [Moore] I don't know how to say it. Yeah, I don't know how to say it. Yeah, I guess with the pressure and the build-up, what was happening there, people was starting to have different feelings about what we should do or shouldn't do, those kind of situations happen where sometimes tension builds up in a group and people can begin to get-- it can turn inward, people can begin to get angry at one another and stuff, just the pressure causes weird

actions. Some people bite their nails, some people pace in circles. Some people become argumentative. [Interviewer] Tell me about the decision to fly out. To, in effect, say "it's over, we're not going to make it," that we have to fly out, how did that happen? [Moore] In terms of how we ended up getting out of there, because on our side a lot of the people really were like insisting that we were going to get there, they were going to take us out of there, we were going to ride those buses, I'm not sure how it was decided to go to the airport. I know the Kennedys sent down, what was his name, Shiver, and so the decision was made that we would go to the airport and then we would go to New Orleans and-- [Interviewer] So you weren't part of the decision to call off the Freedom Rides or fly to New

Orleans? [Moore] No, and I never saw it as calling it off, we were going to start from a different point. Ok? [Interviewer] Stop for a second. [cut] [Moore] I definitely didn't see that as being the end. And you know what, I never saw-- I hate to say this, but I never thought of New Orleans as being the endpoint because I'd thought about always-- we'd go to jail in Mississippi or something like that, so I never saw us being flown into New Orleans as the end of the ride, it just meant we had to regroup and start over, you know? When we got there the Nazi party was waiting for us. [Interviewer] So you weren't really part of this decision to say "okay, we're going to fly out"? [Moore] No. [Interviewer] Do you remember what happened when you got to the airport, because

it wasn't over yet, what happened when you got to the airport? [Moore] When we got to the airport, same thing kind of happened that happened at the bus station, people started gathering, this crowd was gathering and I remember myself, I think it was Hank or couple other guys, decided that we might as well sit down at the counter there and order some coffee, might as well desegregate the airport. So while we waited we went to try to get served there. [Interviewer] Was there fear at the airport? [Moore] No, no there was no more fear than the attention-- you know what it was like we weren't sure we were going to get out of there on an airplane because the crowds were gathering there, whether it was the same group of people, might as well have been, they kind of dressed the same, and you had the same thing going on, you had these people were determined to do whatever they were going to do, or try to do, to us, and we were determined that

that's why we sat-in there, tried to get served at the airport, and, yeah there was the potential, it really looked to me like there was potential that something was going to happen right there at the airport. They were gathering, the numbers were increasing, so I figured this was it again. [Interviewer] Tell me that again, just in a clean statement. So you're at the airport, talk about the fact that you're at the airport and you're stuck there too and more and more people kind of pouring in and it didn't look good then. [Moore] So we were at the airport because they wanted to fly us out and more people were gathering again, and it was, the crowd was getting bigger and a couple of us decided it was time to test the airport, sit down to get served at the

counter there at the airport. But the tension was building there also and it looked, I do remember thinking that it was that it was going to happen right there. Then I was kind of a little bit surprised that we actually did fly out. [Interviewer] What was going to happen right there? [Moore] Okay. That either we were going to get beat, lynched, murdered, or locked up, that this was it. Sorry, I should have clarified-- [Interviewer] Talk about that feeling. [Moore] From the whole airport thing? [Interviewer] Yeah, how did you feel? I don't need to hear about the sit-ins, I want to now talk about your feeling at the airport with the crowd gathering. [Moore] Well the crowd's getting bigger, larger, and the

same thing's starting to happen I just had the feeling that it was going to happen, or I didn't know that we were going to get, there was a problem, that we weren't going to be able to fly out either bus or fly out, so my feeling was that very possibly we would, we were going to get beaten, lynched, murdered, whatever. That it might go on there. [Interviewer] Was there a feeling of being trapped at the airport? [silence] [Moore] I wouldn't say that I felt-- being at the airport though, with the crowds gathering and all that, I didn't feel like I was trapped, felt like inconvenience. [Interviewer] Inconvenience? [Moore] It hadn't get to that point yet. It was like-- so actually like doing the sit-in there was kind of a relief, that relieved the tension, it created a different tension, but it took us off the focus of the crowds that was outside,

we still had a bit of that get up and go, you know, we weren't beaten yet. [Interviewer] One thing I wanted to go back to, one of the things that always struck me, you're in the Birmingham terminal and you're stuck there, the crowd's gathering outside, but you guys are kind of sitting there reading newspapers, everybody looks so cool, talk about that. The tension inside and what we see on the outside. [laughs] [Moore] I don't know what to say about that. [Interviewer] Were you cool and calm and collected in Birmingham? [Moore] Was I? [Interviewer] Was everybody. [Moore] Well when we were-- when they didn't want to let the buses out, when the buses were refusing to take us out, crowds were gathering and different people doing different things, I didn't feel really any great tension or fear

in that bus terminal. I think because I ended up kind of focusing on what other people were going through. Because some of the other people are being pretty upset. I think I had a disconnect from my feelings pretty much, some type of survival thing and my focus wasn't so much, wasn't so much affected by like when that couple broke through in there and the cursing and screaming and racial epithets and the cops had to remove them and all that stuff, it didn't-- it's what was expected. [Interviewer] How did you feel when the plane finally took off from Birmingham? You're on that plane and the wheels are up and you're finally up in the air, how did you feel? [Moore] Okay now when the plane took off there were two feelings: the real feeling was I was happy,

and I was glad to meet Shiver, the guy from Washington. Who was it? [Interviewer] Seigenthaler. [Moore] Seigenthaler, okay, I had the wrong guy all these years. He was Kennedy's right-hand guy or something, right? [Interviewer] Okay, let's start over, so the plane took off, how are you feeling? [Moore] Okay, when the plane took off I had, there were two feelings: the real feeling was basically I was happy and I was impressed that Kennedy had sent his man down. And on the other hand I had this stupid thought running around that we should have stayed. [Interviewer] Why? [Moore] Well it kind of looked like they won in a way, but we didn't feel like they won because they hadn't succeeded in keeping us. So it's like conflict, it's like they wanted to keep us but they hadn't been able to really totally cut us off, we were able to get out.

But at the same time it wasn't about, we weren't there to run. [Interviewer] So you felt they won, talk about that, you felt-- [Moore] No, I didn't feel that they won, I felt like-- I felt like it would seem like they had stopped us. They might feel that they won, they had succeeded, and for that purpose it kind of felt like we should have stayed but saner minds had control and the idea for me, New Orleans was, it wasn't over, just because we got stopped there for a minute, the thing wasn't an over. That's why the song wrote, says "the battle ain't over, we're going back." [Interviewer] So you were of two minds on the plane. Tell me that again. Just want you to say you were of two minds, one you were happy, the other you were sad. So how did you

feel on the plane? [Moore] Well once we were on the plane I kind of had, I don't know if it's ambivalent, it was I felt both ways, I was happy I was on the plane but then I was regret that we had left because I had the feeling that they would think they had won, and they had stopped us, whereas it felt that we shouldn't let them think that. But it was like the song says, "the battle ain't over," we figured that was just they stopped us for that minute, but we're going back, we were going to be coming back. It wasn't over, for me the Freedom Rides weren't over, I didn't see that as the end, it never even occurred to me that that was the end. [Interviewer] Okay, let's cut. How do you think the Freedom Rides, going on the Freedom Rides changed you? How did it change you? [Moore] The rides themselves--

it's something I really have to think about because I never thought that the rides changed me-- well yeah in a way it did, it made me more aware of the danger even though I'd been through a lot of, kind of, close calls and stuff, I don't know how it changed me-- [Interviewer] What do you think that the Freedom Rides accomplished? What did the Freedom Rides accomplish? [Moore] Well, the Freedom Rides, basically on the surface it got the laws to be instituted and I like to think that it lead to a lot of the things that people-- self-pride-- you can hear that? [Interviewer] Yes. Let's cut. [Moore] Okay.

I'll just tell you straight up, you ready? Okay. Tell you the truth in terms of what the Freedom Rides accomplished, I think for a long time I didn't feel we did that much. And I felt that we-- that's about my-- But I'm happy to see it and I'm glad that other people do. Or that it helped to open up some other doors for people. Sometimes when I'm in different places and I see people with jobs, [sniffles] that the-- I have to blow my nose.

[Interviewer] But now, I think, or you'd have to say, which is perfectly legitimate, "I don't think the Freedom Rides accomplished anything," so it's one or the other. "It was just a waste of my time." [Moore] I never felt a waste of my time. [Interviewer] But you know what I mean. [Moore] So in terms of what the Freedom Rides accomplished, there was a long period of time that I went through feeling like it didn't accomplish much of anything and I was happy to see the people picked up and they took a second and a third wave went down, that was great but it took some time before I really realized and accepted. People said, "oh, he did a great thing," and all this stuff but when I saw the whole picture, the whole picture, not just

the Freedom Rides but the whole picture, the whole civil rights, human rights movement, then yeah it's got a place in that, it fits in when I see people with jobs, people who can ride anywhere they want on the bus. So for that, that's important. If I really stop and think back to what it felt like to walk into a place, to know you have to go around back, and what that does to the psyche. So when I take those kind of things into consideration, yeah it's good but it's just a part of the whole. [Interviewer] Why were you willing to risk your life on the Freedom Rides? [Moore] The principals and just believed that freedom, people should be free, people shouldn't have to walk around to the back door, people shouldn't be lynched, and people should have a right to vote. That children should have a chance at

education, and--