American Experience; Freedom Riders; Interview with Rebecca Diane McWhorter, 2 of 4

[McWhorter]: Uh-huh... [Interviewer]: That's what really we want to get at, that... [McWhorter]: Yeah... [Interviewer]: You know, there was enough planning to think, okay, here comes the bus, and now you can lie in front of it, and there's going to be another group coming behind to ambush them. So now, we, we did a good sort of general set up of the South. [McWhorter]: Mhmm. [Interviewer]: So now, let's just stay in the rides [McWhorter]: Yeah, um, yeah, they actually didn't know exactly, you know, because in Birmingham they thought they were coming into the Greyhound and they came into the Trailways. But anyway, yeah, so, yeah, anyways. [Interviewer]: Those specifics, they actually didn't know exactly where they were. [McWhorter]: Yeah, but they were. [Interviewer]: You know, there certainly were all these meanings behind... [McWhorter]: Right, the Klan had been planning it. Right. And– right, um, and, um, yeah. And the Klan had a– The Birmingham Klan that planned it pretty much had a– had an outpost in Anniston as well. So that’s– So that this was all coordinated between the two places. [Interviewer]: Okay, let's do that. [McWhorter]: Okay. And so do you want to talk about the convoy, the screaming convoy of-of cars following the bus? Okay. So the-the bus finally leaves the Anniston station and there’s a Ford pickup truck in front of it to keep it from-from gaining too much speed. And then in screaming pursuit is this

convoy of 50 cars. And finally the bus dri– the bus blew a tire that they had attacked with [fire arns]– fire irons back at the bus station. And so they have to stop the, the bus. The driver gets the hell out of there. He scampers across the field. And um, and then the mob sets upon the bus, screaming "Sieg heil" in some cases. They threw a firebomb through one of the rear windows. Now, um, Governor Patterson had-had put a plainclothes detective on the– on the bus, and I’m sure it wasn’t for their protection. I’m sure it was to spy on them. And um, and so it turns out, there’s nothing like getting some law-law enforcement action than the threat of actually hurting the law enforcer. So Eli Cowling, was the guy’s name, finally shoots his gun, and tells the mob to get away or-or he was going to, you know, kick- shoot them. And so finally– And the bus driver’s being– The bus riders meanwhile are throwing

themselves out the window. And finally they-they open the door and let– and let them come out as well. [Interviewer]: Alright, so let's do that read a little, again, and talk what? what? Oh. Um... There were some organized welcoming party... [McWhorter]: Yeah. [Interviewer]: However you wanna... however you feel comfortable saying that, you know it wasn't just wasn't just out of the blue. There was some knowledge that people were coming and they wanted to And they planned the attacks. [McWhorter]: Mm-hm. Um Well the klan had been planning this for a good week as soon as they knew what the- what the schedule was gonna be. And it was coordinated out of Birmingham with the Birmingham police, who I'm assuming had their counterparts in Anniston. [Interviewer]: So, um, then I guess do it again, just close the thought off, so that's how they knew, you know to go meet them at the different stations and... you know, just bring the whole whole story back. [McWhorter]: Okay, um, yeah, the klan

the state-wide klan had been planning this for at least a week, once they knew of the Freedom Rider schedule. So the uh, it had been coordinated in Birmingham and they had this Klan outpost in Atlanta. I mean it [exhales]. [Interviewer]: That was good. Do it again. [McWhorter]: Okay, so They had this clown- bla bla bla. They had this Klan outpost in Anniston. and so they knew, you know, roughly when the buses were coming. They didn't know exactly what what bus, who's gonna be on what bus, or what bus line they were taking, and they were ready for them. [Interviewer]: So then with that, um, when they when they got to the hospital... Yeah, actually, let's back up: In Burmingham with the beating and the FBI klan informant, what what is weird to me is what does that say about the FBI priority? I mean, there's this you know, you would think they would be the they would be there waiting to help the riders, but instead they are there waiting for the informant

whose part of the klan who was beating the riders. [McWhorter]: Right, and they, okay, so So, what do you wanna... alright, so do you wanna finish up Anniston or do you wanna? [Interviewer]: Yeah, so Anniston is second [McWhorter]: Okay, so the the second bus is a trailways bus, and it leaves Atlanta, pulls into Anniston having no idea what had happened to their to their comrades on the first bus. And in Anniston the bus driver pleads with the riders to please ride segregated for the rest of the- for the next leg or there's gonna be trouble and they refused. Some other regular passengers get off 'cause they don't wanna be martyrs to history and then these several white men get on and they beat up the riders en route to Birmingham. They beat up James Peck and um, Walter Bergman, who were trying to come to the rescue of their black fellow

riders. And so by the time they get to Birmingham[s] there's already There's already been some some bloodshed and for some reason the favorite weapon of the Klan is coke bottles; so they were hit- they hit them with coke bottles and on the bus ride to Birmingham. Um, okay, so now back to birmingham. Okay, so they... Now nobody's So nobody's quite sure... The Birmingham police is keeping close track of this, but nobody is quite sure what bus they're on and when they're gonna arrive. And so most of the press is camped out over at the Greyhound station and in fact the bus comes into the trailways station and there's a, there's a carload of Birmingham news reporters sipping cokes watching it. But they... It's Marc Dallas and it pulls in and they don't think is the right bus. I don't know what they thought it was gonna say, "Freedom Bus"? And so so then the press finds out that it's coming to the greyhound they run

over the first... Um, okay so wait, right now, what do you want me to... [Interviewer]: So why don't you just do a quick summary again, get them to... you know we don't know about the press yet, just keep them out for a second. The bus is arriving and they don't know what They've been beaten up on the bus, they're about to get in. [McWhorter]: Okay so they so basically said that isn't a ride and they've already had trouble en route and they are confronted with this huge mob at the bus station and james pack turns to trials person who has was a Morehouse student and they were, you know gonna, they were slated to get off first together and Pack gave him a look that said "You don't have to do this anymore" and Person said "Let's go." They marched into the teeth of the mob and then were set upon brutally. [Interviewer]: And then, what's interesting about that, isn't there a photo at some point of this mob [unintelligible] and it turns out someone in that photo is the FBI informant? [McWhorter]: Yes, so... [Interviewer]: What does that say about police and protection?

[McWhorter]: Well what happened was, so the, well what happens is that when the Freedom Riders starting off, the Klan realizes that they can't tell the Freedom Riders - the radicals - from the regular ol' bus drivers, some of whom have been obeying the law and, the segregated law, riding in the back of the bus. So they decide, "Hey let's just beat up any black person", and so it's just this this wild melee. What happened was that there had deal between the police and the Klan approved by the highest elected official in town, Bull Connor, to give the Klan fifteen minutes to give the Freedom Riders a welcome they would not forget. And... so the police were ordered to stay away from the bus station until they were told otherwise. And then, finally after the after the agreed upon fifteen minutes, they called in a fight that whatever the code was for just regular fight as if they had no idea that there was going to be a demonstration there,

basically, and then the police finally arrive fifteen minutes after after a lot of damage has been done. Pack had his head split open and you know a lot of non Freedom Riders were beaten as well. [Interviewer]: But also there's an informant there. I mean what we're trying to get at [unintelligible] what we're trying to get at is there's police, there's FBI, yet... [McWhorter]: yeah [Interviewer]: the FBI informant is like beating them up, being part of the problem, not part of the solution. [McWhorter]: right, ok... [Interviewer]: and what does that say about the FBI? [McWhorter]: Ok, so how much background do you want on this or do you just want to ... [Interviewer]: [unintelligible] [McWhorter]: Ok, so, to further complicate things the FBI had a an ace informant inside the Ku Klux Klan. The FBI knew about the plan, the fifteen minutes in advance and the plan... the collaboration between the police and the Klan because J Edgar Hoover was always fond of saying, "We're not a national police force. We can't protect people

specifically. We can only inform the local authorities to provide protection." They're in this real bind because they've told the police that they know what's coming, so the police know that they're on to them. They're afraid of blowing their their informant's cover if they if they take it any further and so what ends up happening though is that their informant is in the heat of the battle. He is landing the blows, he is right in there mixing it up with the Klan. So... so he gives them... he had been given given them good good intelligence and everything. Part of the brilliance of the Klan during this whole thing was that they got the reporters they attacked reporter... well actually let me start back... The Klan also was prepared for any publicity that might ensue from this so the first photographer to arrive on the scene walks through the doors is

kind of, here's this melee going on inside its sort of blinded by the fluorescent light in the station and starts shooting, he doesn't know what he's shooting. Then the mob realizes oh oh they're going to take pictures of us that can be identified and so they attacked the reporter, the photographer, beat him up smashed camera and leave him lying in fetal position on the ground. Now he finally gets away. All the reporters who subsequently showed up, the mob is waiting for them, and they... the reporters very cooperatively handed over all their film. They said, don't break my compu... They said, "Don't smash my camera. Here you can have the film." So they thought they had done a really clean job and gotten rid of all the photographic evidence. What happens is that one of the colleagues of the Post Herald reporter was beat up goes back over there, finds the camera - the smashed camera, and he,

Tommy Langston is the photographer's name that's been taken to the hospital, and he calls him and it says "Looks like the film is still good in there. Do you want me to fog it?" meaning do want me to expose it so that we, our city, won't look bad? And Tommy Langston said "Nah, go ahead." And so what happens is, the next morning in the... across five columns of the Birmingham Post Herald is this picture of this mob beating up on one of the writers. It turns out it was just, it wasn't actually one of the writers, it was somebody who was in the station. And and the FBI realizes that they have a photograph their informant holding down the victim while his Klan brothers are beating him up and they realize they have a big problem. [Interviewer]: Ok, so now, can you do that in... [McWhorter]: Two seconds? Yeah, ok. [Interviewer]: You know, it basically is, the FBI's priority or preoccupation is protecting their informant, not

protecting the Freedom Riders. Like the law enforcement at this time, during the Freedom Rides, is not the protecting the Freedom Riders. [McWhorter]: Right and they, yeah, and they are in a bind. [Interviewer]: So we just want a sentence, a short summary saying that. [McWhorter]: Okay. Okay so, Is this like this is the first time we're hearing about this you mean or is this sort of a summation of that, okay So you want a, okay, [Interviewer]: Make it a whole summary like a overall summary. [McWhorter]: Ok, ok. All right So, okay. Okay, it so happens that the FBI had a really crack informant inside the Ku Klux Klan. They knew in advance about this deal between the police in the Klan. It turns out that that they can't do anything about it because, as J Edgar Hoover liked to say, "We're not a national police force and we can only inform the local police of

of what's happening, of the intelligence as we've gathered, and they have to act accordingly. They know, however, that that the police are involved in this, in the plot. They still do nothing to protect the the Freedom Riders. In fact, even worse, it turns out that they're very own informant is at the center of the violence. They, he was holding down one of the victims while he was being beat. And, as they find out the following day when they get the Birmingham Post Herald, there's a picture of the informant, Gary Thomas Rowe, front and center of the mob. [Interviewer]: [unintelligible] his name, though, right? [unintelligible] there was an informant? [McWhorter]: Well I just said that though. That just introduced him. [Inteviewer]: Right, so, okay. But why don't you just [unitelligible] very quickly [unintelligible] I don't think, at that time, people know his name. they carry ok so it turns out that the

FBI in Birmingham had a crack informant inside the klan they knew all about the plot between the police and the plan still even that identity that there's been a violent summer is coming up with protection they did nothing to two to protect the writers and what it it being worse was that we're very an informant was at the center of the violence he was wholly owned victims has been laid out and then when they get their morning paper the post herald the next morning they say that there is a photograph of the informant right in the right in the middle of the mob violence so this is why you hear a writer they're thinking here for a reason

ok yes kind of slippery slope complicity in the eye so because we need exactly their houses yeah ok so so it turns out all the institutions of public safety have failed these of these american citizens. The police is in collaboration with the Klan. The FBI is de facto in collaboration with both of these because they have to protect their informants and so you know you have these these americans who are trying to ride a bus who basically are risking their lives so now on that story in recent polls first the hospital??? and on top of that you know????

yes we're asking obama and they were???? ready to be back yeah i read it???? so be it has to be a free riders from Aniston from the burning bus in Anniston were taken to the hospital for smoke inhalation and various injuries and when they get there the hospital staff won't treat them and the superintendent of the hospitals and i believe they looked they can look out the hospital windows into the parking lot and they see it and that and the mob waiting for them and the police chief conferring with them the newsman by now who have by now arrived call governer Patterson's office said that you need to send some people in here to protect them and he says why can't the nurse made years later educators and on to file a one of the freedom riders i want a white man tells the ah the superintendent you know you you need to help us you need to do your do your duty and help us and he said i'm it's not your job to tell me what my

duty is. So finally they haven't they have no choice but call Shuttlesworth. They- Shuttlesworth's in Birmingham at this point with the the riders from the Trailways bus in his living room and he says and we have to go get them Now he's decided he had the chief of security a barber named James Armstrong who was his personal body guard and get company into jail and we could take care of him so he turned over to Mr. Armstrong and he said to them we mean he said at work were nonviolent people but really don't we're going to take care of people at a given strict instructions to eye to be unarmed him to go get them. Well, sometimes the rank and file did not listen to the nonviolent leaders and so they get together a few cars of a black folks armed to the teeth with with the rifles is tough to go get it you so that's good

good setup ???so which part ??? Do you not want to hear about Armstrong ? Ok. So finally, when all else fails, they call Shuttlesworth. And ?Shuttlesworth's in? his living room with the other injured riders and now he says, "We're a non violent people, but we have to take care of ours, so we're gonna go get them." So, he gets his chief of security to get together a convoy of cars and he said do not do have so much as a toothpick with you because we are you know are nothing up against their arms. And so, sometimes the rank and file didn't exactly listen to the nonviolent leaders. So, they armed themselves with a bunch of rifles; got a few cars and drove to Aniston. Got them out of the hospital and then brought them into Birmingham.

[Interviewer]: And when got toShuttlesworth's house. what was ?inaudible? [McWhorter]: Well, um, let's see. Yeah. They were ya know, they were pretty traumatized. The worst injured have been taken to the hospital and there was a threat of a growing consensus that at Shuttleworth's that night that they were going to bail out and just take that five- hundred dollars that CORE had telegraphed- telegrammed Shuttlesworth, in case they need- had any local expenses; that they would just take that and go on to the destination of New Orleans. And so, they were pretty discouraged. So, do you want me to I mean is that there was the next day do i get you doing in the pack well yeah

we merely [McWhorter]: Yeah, well when the- Peck- after Peck had been bludgeoned by the mob, uh he does but scholz was churchill's was was leading and an actor and how prison i mean after un after a packet and legend actually am but the position he was but shelters churches just like us or state at the freedom rides and was leading an afternoon service and he covered office and these are patents a look like of a slaughtered hog and took him they took her to the hospital neely and arm so a caisson and you an empty them that if they knew i could go into quizzes and then on the decision then okay okay so on yet they were they were out they were pretty discouraged at that point you know they were lit smoke

inhalation no incentive to drill because it was coming from they ok so by that night mother's day night that the writers are getting pretty discouraged packers in the hospital are they were in serial shuttlesworth house discussing what to do a bull connor called him arrested and have them arrested for violating segregation ordinance is it's better than seeing all around and there's there's a consensus growing to use a five hundred dollars the corps had telegram shuttlesworth four incident a local expenses to you to get out and and got her to new orleans on the next morning though there is an interview with him with tech and in the birmingham papers and and peck at a headline recently like crusader says we're going to continue you know if he kills us reasoning and so then i had to kind of chase their minds and then on shuttlesworth gets a call from the attorney general robert kennedy and on kennedy's brother the president had told

robert to tell them to call it off to tell three measure cult fries because he had his upcoming summit with nikita khrushchev and it was making democracy look bad that we had this racial violence and so instead to his credit or a general called shelter this and what we did and shell's with offers and he said well you can give us protection so he set up a one eight when a checkered patterson's office cover curse is off to come back later is a day he's going to be a protection at that way they decide they can they can go ahead go see it yeah i know ira westgate was the sort of a redneck bizarre of birmingham on that he had been a really popular sports announcer leslie baseball in the thirties during the depression when the wind they smile was and based on radio was an epic release for a

lot of out of work people and honda he had his fans had gotten to run for the legislature he won a seat and then that the big meals that the industrialist who run birmingham realize that you've come away seize towns in the legislature considered you know like write laws and in europe but they are sorry or death one and hang out and so ari so i'm at a un so a bubble cutter was basically the answer redneck zahra birmingham he had been a very popular baseball announcer and the thirties and had a head in the several or city hall since the thirties he took his orders from the elite industrialist who ran the city there was a corporate lawyer in particular who wrote officer relations division was for him and so he's basically the to all of the data lead a birmingham ah he was not just some random heck who had done a lot of power he took his orders

from and he had a really bleak and so what they could accept or things to you that you know if he had that yeah well for several and i mean you know in birmingham that the premier ecology industrials was to keep the money wages low among the working class and said that that's a bull connor was the guy who threw translated this kind of class conflict into racial conflict and had to find you know defined it in commercial terms too two caliber rounds though the white working class against their their fellow black workers and i was connecticut says within his role initially you know yet it would be iraq i it would be a huge mistake to see bull connor as this kind of colorful cartoon figure because he had actually done the bidding of birmingham's into us real class

for a couple of decades by now and so he what did this with the sanction of the quote best people in town on that hick and redneck though he was on so it's it's really it's really not right to see this as some kind of you know a contest between your poor whites and poor blacks but has effect the entire society dependent on people a bull connor to to keep segregation in out to get to do the dirty work segregation and he did it well now one thing that was interesting global cause they know they used to call him and when his essay and how in the world and the president against these were true general rail in a

local official i you know it became a debt and this issue just thought it was pointless to deal with bull connor and he yeah i was you know that they were they were they prided themselves on their rail party candidate had we could cut a deal with their desegregation is that and i think they thought that that bull was the anthill what i'm sitting i think i think they'd like to think they didn't get the ball you know i think that they aren't he was it a they could understand so governor paterson of the city they can understand it serves on and i'm you know i'm like i i think and actually the thirty days i think that bull connor was perhaps too heady an official for them to want to deal directly with so and my understanding is that they had intermediaries from the fbi deal with him they're willing to deal but the gubernatorial levels of a deal with governor paterson as they have dealt with the pair born in

mississippi during the illness crisis the year before that's not every yet i get ready to gamble yeah and one says is send it yet though right so yeah that's okay yeah forget after deadly strike that i learned as i was i forget we're in sixty one and sixty three there was a sixty two and so on you will just think about it there's a good reason i you know i think that they're i think they're probably two things i think that they became the message of hollywood thought it was kind of been the fear that i'm the opposing generals you know coveted to deal with bull connor directly and also i just didn't get they didn't really understand how aa innocence here these people were and what they were capable and they were they were perfectly happy to deal with the governor on but yeah but not double