American Experience; Freedom Riders; Interview with Rebecca Diane McWhorter, 1 of 4

[McWhorter]: Just tell me if you need me to like, rephrase something shorter. Okay? [Interviewer]: Okay. So, let's start with the summary of, about Journey of Reconciliation? Kind of kicks everything off. You know, really, What was the Journey of Reconciliation, and why didn't it work? Because it didn't go to the upper, you know, it only went to the upper South which is what we're trying to get... [McWhorter]: Uh-huh, okay. Um, do you want background in the Fellowship of Reconciliation in CORE? [Interviewer]: Um, maybe something just succinct like the Journey of Reconciliation is, you know, [McWorther]: Okay, um, the- Well, the Journey of Reconciliation was CORE’s first Freedom Ride. And CORE had been founded out of the Fellowship of Reconciliation as sort of this um, uh, organization to promote integration through Gandhian methods. So, their first big thing was this direct action, Journey of Reconciliation, where I think it was 12 riders went through the upper South. You know, the idea was to go on- on regular buses, but-but ride integrated. Now, this had–was–had come in response to the Irene Morgan decision at the Supreme Court, which had desegregated uh, interstate travel on buses and trains. And um, so the Freedom Riders,

as with the subsequent Freedom Rides, were not breaking the law; they were just sort of testing it. So it turned out that (it) they didn’t– it didn’t really create a lot of sturm und drang. And Bayard Rustin, who was one of the organizers and one of the great activists coming out of the sort of passive–pacifist/Marxist left that that that CORE came out of, got- [Interviewer]: Let's stop for a second. So then why don't you do Journey- Irene Morgan that as separate, and then the Journey of Reconciliation as separate, like the two to, you know what I mean?. separate thoughts. [McWhorter]: Uh-huh. Okay, so wait, what do you want me to do? Just the Journey of Reconciliation? [Interviewer]: Just the Journey of Reconciliation, and then complete what that is and then [McWhorten]: And then do Irene Morgan? [Interviewer]: Right [McWhorter]: Okay, so start over. [Interviewer]: Mmhmm. [McWhorter]: Okay, so, do you want me to talk about CORE at all? [Interviewer]: Yeah, that was one of them. [McWhorten]: Okay, okay, okay. [Interviewer]: Like you started fine and then just sort of verged off into other territories. [McWhorter]: To Irene Morgan? [Interviewer]: Right. [McWhorter]: Alright so, alright so, forget, but I, do you want me to say "Test the Morgan decision?" [Interviewer]: Well, what it is, is just, yeah, like we wanted two separate, um, takes[?] you know, two separate thoughts. [McWhorter]: Uh, so the Journey of Reconciliation

was actually CORE’s first Freedom Ride and it took place in 1947. CORE had been founded out of the Fellowship of Reconciliation, which was the sort of group of of pacifists, left-wingers, ant– the anti-Stalinist left. And um, CORE was to apply Gandhian principles of dir-direct action to ending segregation. So their first big direct action event was the Journey of Reconciliation. And-and what it was, was 12 mixed-race– riders of different races decided that they were going to take a regular bus through the upper South to test a recent Supreme Court decision which had outlawed segregated seating on interstate bus and train travel. It didn’t really create much of a stir, to their disappointment. Bayard Rustin, who was one of the organizers, was arrested in North Carolina and, I think, was on a chain gang for 22 days, but that was– It didn’t get a lot of attention. And James Peck, who was another one of the-the lefties on white man from a very privileged family, on this trip,

was actually sort of surprised at how tolerant the bus drivers were. They didn’t really care. And the thing that had struck him was, when they were in court, that, um that he was amazed in-in these southern courtrooms that they swore black and white witnesses on different Bibles. So even the– Even-even Christianity was segregated at that level. [Interviewer]: That's a good segue, I mean if you're in the north(?), then they just went to the upper south, really, what's the difference? [McWhorter]: Well, people like me who are from Alabama really don’t consider the upper South the real South. You know. They-they come out of this kind of colonial tradition, you know, the only– one of the 13 original colonies that’s in the deep South, which is– I guess South Carolina’s also in the deep South. But Georgia was, of course, the penal colony. So we-we consider– We-we deep southerners consider the the upper South a little too civilized. so- anyway(?) [Interviewer]: So then, with that, um, maybe do that again and then describe what was - you know, a lot of young people are going watch this video and they're not really gonna know or really understand what segregation was and how things were segregated - like the separate bibles

it's just such a foreign concept. [McWhorter]: Okay, um you know, we could also get into this with Birmingham 'cause Birmingham was so segregated, but, um, okay, uh, so what do you like- [Interviewer]: So in general terms were upper south and the deep south and how segregation is- is in these areas you know why there's such a difference? Like, in the north you're just like, "Oh, you're just going down south," it's always like that, but for you guys, there is a distinction. [McWhorter]: Um, Well, I know that- that there was sort of this expression that the black people got lighter, the further north you got. So in Virginia, you could see a lot of the results of the miscegenation of– on the plantations, which was so common. You know, less of that in the deep South. So there had been a lot of-of sort of, shall we say, blended families already in the North, that you didn’t see so much of in the South.

Um, okay, so what do you need? Okay, you need more like, what? [Interviewer]: So tell me a-a story of segregation you know, do you have a personal story, growing up that you either experienced or heard about in this, now I guess we're really in the 40's, 50's, 60's, you know, that era - like before the Freedom Rides. [McWhorter]: Well, the-the other thing was, in the deep South, the black population was controlled so stringently. Black men just grew up knowing that you could not meet the eye of a white woman; that if you– a-a-a white person approached you on the sidewalk, you stepped off. In rural communities it was fairly commonplace[d] for white and so-called colored children to play together, up until a certain point, which was right before puberty. And after that, there-there was no contact. Now, behind all this, I mean, you know, there-there are a lot of reasons for segregation. And-and sort of a Marxian interpretation what it of it would be that it was– it’s all about economics. Now, my

my position is that if it had not worked economically, it would not have existed. And you see that when it stopped working economically, it stopped existing. However, in order for something– for a culture to sign on to something that kind of crazy, when you look-look at it, there has to be a huge irrational, emotional component. And underneath that, in the South, was the fear of miscegenation. It-it sort of all comes down to the mingling of bodily fluids. So-so the things where the whites were most phobic are things like washing hair, say. So there were always separate white and black hairdressers. And undertakers. You never- Whites did not handle black bodies, the embalming fluids. And of course sex, and swimming pools and water fountains. So that was sort of the irrational fear that– the fear of contamination, the fear– the ultimate fear of-of producing a so-called mongrel child. So the– So the-the buzz word

was mongrelization. And that’s-that’s why, for example, the NAACP first, when they were challenging segregated education, they started out with graduate schools, because– and they started out with married plaintiffs, because they didn’t want to raise the specter of-of the the races mingling on intimate terms. And that’s why they were so afraid of education at the primary school level, because they knew if blacks– black and white children grew up together as friends, and then the next step would be girlfriends and boyfriends. [Interviewer]: What um- we were talking to um, one of the riders, right before they got started to interview Hughes, [McWhorter]: Uh-huh [Interviewer]: and so she made a comment about how um, as a white female, they really did not want her to go on the ride because she was seen more, more of a threat than, say, black or black women. [McWhorter]: Uh-huh [Interviewer]: What was the- What's the threat here? [McWhorter]: Oh yeah, well the- the sort of- I mean, you saw this in the– in the days of the Communist Party, that people always thought that the purpose was for black men to have sexual access to white

women. So, white women who were part of the movement were always smeared as being, you know, women of low morals, and um, uh, you know that that they were sleeping with black men. And in the movement, you know, the-the– you know, there were all these rumors, for example during the Selma march, that there were orgies on the side of the road, um, you know, when they were on the march. And this was just sort of the thing that captivated the white attend– the white people’s attention, that that-that’s– that was beneath everything. And of course, when you think about you know, the ultimate form of social control was lynching. And so, you had to have some taboo that justified this. And so in the white people’s mind, it was, you know, black– a black man raping a white woman. And that justified any kind of retaliation. So that was sort of the foundation of this um, uh, of– people

feeling entitled to enforce this segregated code by any means necessary, um, even if it meant an entire community turning out to essentially barbecue a man, um, and take pictures and send them around as souvenirs. That, you know, that fear of-of sexual access to-to the white woman was um, was at the basis of it all. [Interviewer]: How would you tie that then, with the Freedom Rides? I mean, the whole point is just to ride a bus, so, how- what is the huge fear there? [McWhorter]: Um, well, you know, the other– the other sort of weird taboo was against sitting down together as any kind of social equals. So that’s why you-you see the taboo against eating together, uh, even though– I mean, the irrational part of it is that-that black cooks cooked most of white people– you know, the white families’ food. They could have done anything. They could have poisoned them. They could have spit in them. And yet this taboo of against sitting, you know, sitting down at the table, either to confer

or to eat. Now, one of my favorite stories is– that this southern New Dealer told, was of a white woman in Georgia who had had a child with a black man. And she put him in the orphanage. And she would go and visit him on Sundays, her love child with-with this black man. And um, so finally the-the woman who ran the orphanage said, “Well, don’t you want to sit down and have lunch with your son?” And she said, “Why, eat with a nigger? I just couldn’t.” And that, to me, perfectly describes how crazy this whole thing is, that she ha– It’s her child, and yet she could not violate this taboo. Now, what– you know, there’s this sort of cliché that-that white people are afraid of blacks. And, you know, to the extent that they are afraid of the black retribution that they have invited, that’s probably true. But what really made segregation work was the white people’s fear of each other, and the kind of social

reprisals and possibly bodily reprisals that would occur if you stepped outside the code. And so, therefore one of one of the– the worst thing a white person can be called during this era was “nigger lover.” And that was the way they really kept whites in line. A lot of white people knew that segregation was wrong, and they knew that the Bible– it was wrong according to the Bible. And what really kept them from doing the right thing was the fear of, you know, losing social relationships, losing money, being boycotted. And that’s-that’s what would happen to white people who-who did the right thing. [Interviewer]: Why don't you, that's good, why don't you give a shorter summary- [McWhorter]: [laughs] [Interviewer]: of, of that- [McWhorter]: Of what? White people's fear of each other? [Interviewer]: Mhmm. [McWhorter]: Uh, okay [Interviewer]: In the context of, you know, those of some of the rules of segregation. Well, I guess it's more of a fear of retaliation and being(?) what they want to be painted as. [McWhorter]: Well, yes...

Yeah, it's also just the emotional part too, um okay, so um, okay, Okay, I said– so, well yeah, Rationally, people might think that the– what– that white people were afraid of blacks, certainly afraid of inviting the retaliation that they had in that they in fact deserved. But actually, a more sort of prac-pragmatic explanation of it is that whites were afraid of each other. They were afraid of social ostracism, economic reprisals, if they stepped outside of-of the– of the racial code in the South. A lot of people knew it was wrong. They knew segregation was wrong because it just directly violated their-their religious principles. So that’s– It was really the fear of each other, as much as fear of black people, that-that enforced this–the system. [Interviewer]: Okay, let's um, go to the rides. [McWhorter]: Okay. Okay, let's see.

[Interviewer] When the freedom riders get started, you know, they pretty much have their upper South journey, then they get to the South, and particularly of course, Anniston. You know, we've seen some of the pictures, and one weird picture is like a guy who looks like he's lying in front of the bus or you know what does that say? What was going on? [McWhorter]: Well, can I tell you what my favorite– my favorite quote was about the upper South? Okay. Well, you know things were– things were so peaceful in the upper South that one of the Riders said, “They heard we were coming and they baked us a cake.” When the riders got to Atlanta, they were greeted by Martin Luther King’s organization, King and his executive director Wyatt T. Walker. And Wyatt T. Walker reassured them that when they crossed the state line at Alabama, things would be considerably different. And sure enough, when they got to Anniston, the bus driver at Anniston talked to a bus driver who was coming in the– in the– in the other— (stumbles) I can’t say it. [Interviewer]: Let's take a breath and start over.

[McWhorter]: The bus driver who was driving the Greyhound bus from Atlanta to Birmingham stopped in Anniston. A bus driver coming from the opposite direction told him that there was a mob waiting for him down the road. Now, the– What you have to understand is, you know, I think a lot of people have this misimpression that segregation was about, you know, thugs and rednecks beating up on black people, when actually it was this totalitarian system that was enforced, you know, by the law, by the elected officials, and by– most notably, by the police. So, what happens when they get into Anniston is that the policemen were conferring with the members of the mob. And I like the fact that the policemen-policemen were in brown, which sort of to me, you know, makes me think of Nazi Germany. But they were– you know, they were conferring with-with the– with the members of the mob in the bus station. And one of them felt such impunity about doing whatever he wanted to, that he-he lay down in front of the bus to keep it from leaving the bay. And he later told an FBI

agent that he had had an epileptic seizure. So-so this just kind of gives you an example of how they just felt like nobody’s going to do anything to them. They can say whatever they want. They can make up the biggest lie they-they please. [Interviewer]: Talk about how the police is sort of- Is it the mob? Are they in cahoots with the mob? Or, are they, the Klan? I mean, basically, it's the segregation law is the law, the segregationists are the law. [McWhorter]: Okay, so- okay, okay. Once lynching came to an end, then the form of social c-control– (stumbles) okay- Once lynching came to an end which it had sort of died out in the 40's, the form of social control was police brutality. Now, police brutality was a given. A lot of these black commun– (wait, hang on a second.... Can I just start with–) Police brutality was just a given. A lot of the southern communities had a very large black minority if not a black majority, and sometimes you ask yourselves, how could the white

minority, in some cases, have kept them under such control? And the-the answer is police brutality. Any black person could be you know, arrested for doing anything. So, in Birmingham, there was a motorist who was stopped just for driving while black, and then he was beat up by the policeman, who who explained to him in– that he had said, “That’s right” instead of, “Yes, sir.” And then the– And then the policeman said, “We can put anything we want on you black SOBs and we don’t have to have any reason.” And that pretty much summed it up. So that-that blacks lived in-in legitimate fear of the police, and that’s why. Some of the policemen that I interviewed told me that they– you know, that they did participate in police brutality. And these weren’t particularly bad men. And they had regrets about it later. But that was just– That was just the nature of the– of-of the police code at the time. [Interviewer]: So, telate that to what happened in Anniston. [McWhorter]: So, you know, obviously, in-in Anniston, the police didn’t care what was going on. Now,

the policemen’s position was that they were for segregation, and sometimes they had to rely on the mob to do things that they were constitutionally forbidden to do. So they were happy to have the-the Klan doing their vigilante work for them. So, you know, that’s just– that was just normal. [Interviewer]: So, talk about what these mobs were doing. You know, they were lying in front of buses, ...this mob was sort of following the bus and this was Mother's Day and the whole excuse was there were no polices. [McWhorter]: Well, we can– We can really get to the-the thing with the police in Birmingham, because that was actually a deal that was made with the Klan. [Interviewer]: Yeah, we'll get to that. [McWhorter]: Right. So Anist– okay. So– I can’t remember if it was like a 20– Do you remember if it was a 20-car convoy or a 50? [End of Tape 50086]