American Experience; Freedom Riders; Interview with Rebecca Diane McWhorter, 3 of 4

zoo will yeah yeah right ok Ready? OK. I think the Kennedys just didn't get Bull Connor. This was, they were very new in the administration they just dealt with the catastrophe of the Bay of Pigs a month before so they had not really focused on civil rights yet. The Freedom Riders had sent them a pro forma letter saying that we were going to do this but they hadn't payed any attention. So yeah the first sort of person, you know they had to deal with is Bull Connor and they just were not prepared for you know the kind of ramrod personality like that. They were fine dealing with governors. [Interviewer-more importantly is the Kennedy naiviete of how .....the south....Bull Connor....(unintelligible)] Right, yeah the Kennedy's I think you know sort of they operated by what his ring called the cult of the gentleman and they they really thought that reasonable people could Ok. [Interviewer-We're rolling] Yeah the ok yeah the

candidates just didn't get Bull Connor. This was very early in their administration this was their first big civil rights crisis.s crisis Robert Kennedy said he didn't even know about the Freedom Riders until he saw the picture of the burning bus in Anniston and so they just, you know, they I think they thought that you know reasonable politicians could talk frankly behind closed doors and then these segregationists had to demagogue in public but that you know that they could understand each other and with you know they didn't, they never met a Bull Connor before and they just didn't know what to do. [Interviewer-And um talk about how the riders are surprised at now we're backing up a little bit but give me how the riders are have no idea that they're entering into the land of Bull Connor] Well let's see, yeah I don't really even know, ok you mean like ok the uh ok you know the

well what do you mean like the white riders [Interviewer-just in general, they're facing Bull Connor, his territory, he is the enforcer literally the motif you....(unintelligble) for all of that] they of course didn't know that there was this, that this was a police approved attack that wouldn't come out years actually but You know, a lot of the white riders on the on the CORE ride were older in some cases had come out of this pacifist left tradition and they were northerners, they didn't know what they were getting in for and so you know understandably they decided to to take a hike early instead of continuing on. [Interviewer-What we're trying to do is connect we're connecting Bull Connor, the riders have no clue... no clue that they're heading into

the land of Bull Connor] Yeah, I guess you know, ok so wait, you want that well you know the riders have been kinda perplexed about the benign-ness of the reaction so far and it's clear that they just had no idea what was awaiting them in Alabama. You know James Farmer's and father had had had dot do you want to get into that? Somebody else must cover that. [Interviewer-Where you were heading was...stay right there getting ready to get into they had no idea what they're expecting use Bull Connor in that context....] Ok and you know Bull Connor had said, had once said that he could solve the the race problem in Alabama with you know a couple of dogs and you know they just, they had never encountered anything this kind of simple shall we say, you know this way of enforcing stuff so brutally. I

don't really know, tell me exactly. [Interviewer-Make that a complete sentence] I don't really know what would, I'm not even sure what they're expecting you know so yeah I think that they were you know that they were sort of on some level disappointed that the reaction so far in the upper south had been relatively benign. That you know maybe I'm sure they got more than they were wishing for when they when they met up with Bull Connor's police and Klan force. I mean you know I think that I mean this this conspiracy between the police and the Klan didn't come out for years because most people just could not believe that this could happen in the United States of America. You know and with the added layer of the FBI being in on the on the plot so it's just you know, of course they had no idea how bad it was.I mean most people in the country could couldn't accept this was going on in the United States.

[Interviewer-unintelligible Yeah, yeah yeah um I think that uhhhh that you know,he Riders had been somewhat disappointed by the reaction they had gotten in the upper south, I mean,after all this was a publicity stunt by definition and but I think that they really could have had no idea what they were in for when they went into Alabama Bull Connor had had said damn the law down here here we make your own law. He had said, he'd said when he was running for governor that he could solve the state's race problem with with a few dogs. I mean it was on it was a proudly belligerently racist and you know and there was no apology, no apology whatsoever for it, [Interviewer-one more time...running for governor..unintelligible]

So ok. [Interviewer-unintelligible] (background talking.....living in New York right?) Ah ok. Well I think the Riders had been somewhat disappointed at the reaction they'd gotten in the upper south it'd been so benign that you know they really had no idea what they were in for when they came into Alabama. I mean Bull Connor had said that he could solve the race problems in Alabama with a couple of dogs. His motto was damn the law, down here we make her own law. He was completely unapologetically belligerent about how he was going to handle race problems and he did it. [Interviewer-And on that sort of police area...unintelligible]

You know, I really don't know. I don't know, I know that the you know Hoover was was pretty widely known to be not sympathetic to the civil rights movement. So I don't know whether the Riders would have had any expectation that the FBI would intervene in any way. [Interviewer-unintelligible] OK So yeah so Bull had the Riders jailed for a I think he called it protective custody and they went, were on a hunger strike and so he shows up with a couple of reporters and his favorite cabdriver at midnight. Takes him out of jail

they do their non-violent dead-weight to put put up some resistance they carry them and put them in the car and then Bull, with reporters in tow takes him to the Tennessee state line. He thinks they think that they're gonna take it back to college and they're sort of joking with him and this is you know one of those kinda paradoxes of the south is that white people actually feel, especially country people, feel rather comfortable around black people so they're kinda laughing and joking and one of the Riders says you're going to have to come to breakfast with the at [?] ha ha very funny and then at dawn he puts them out out at the state line and he said you know I've sorta done my, fulfilled my obligation now get get back the best way you can. [Interviewer-And so what is that saying, it's like you know this is Bull Connor yet again in charge and then.....] Yeah, well this you know I mean I think on one hand, you know Bull thought he was just being cute and clever I think and you know, it was his jail and he was going to do whatever he wanted with them. He, you know there was this line that he couldn't he

couldn't stand all the hymn singing they were doing and that's always reported straight as if he really meant that. But actually was kind of a joke. I think he was saying that to explain to the justice department about why he was had had to get rid of them. So ummm he uh......[Interviewer-Well first take us explain....Bull...jail..(unintelligible)] Ok the hymn singing happened before the yeah ok so you want me to just do that whole...do you want the... anecdote about him....you wanna just start with him being taken to jail? OK [Interviewer-(unintelligible)] Yeah so this is the connective tissues

Ok so you want ok so that's why you really need this kinda Bull point of view, ok Umm so ok, ummmm. [Interviewer-we can start with the next Freedom Riders...] Ok so when the national students arrived they [Interviewer-unintelligible] When the national students arriving they took them off the bus and took him into protective custody, put them in jail and they went on a hunger strike and sang hymns all time and Bull would later say that all the hymn singing was driving him crazy so had to get them out of there. He'd try to convince them to go home he he told one of the white girls that he was gonna call her daddy and in fact did I think and I think one of them you know was was forced to go home. So anyway he arrives at midnight at the jail with his favorite cabdriver and his two favorite reporters and they pack them in 2 cars, drive to the state line in that weird way where where southerners, whites are comfortable with blacks they start you know

jokin.g Bull thought of himself as something of a prankster which was sort of what this was all about and one of the students the Fisk student says Oh,you can come have breakfast with usat Fisk, when we get back.They think that they're being driven back to campus and in fact at dawn they they get to this Tennessee state line and Bull puts them out, throws their luggage out by the side of the road and says you know you're on your own now and they headed back to Birmingham and when the Riders said , ok Bull we'll back in town before noon and sure enough they were or maybe a little bit, a couple of hours later [Interviewer-unintelligible] Yeah Bull was, he was just just , he was the commissioner of public safety so he was in charge of the police department so what every he wanted the police to do, he did, he gave the orders and if he wanted to show up at the jail at midnight he could, so...[Interviewer-unintelligible...

they find their way back to Birmingham unintellibigible... next wave going....unintelligible] at yet....back in Birmingham....unintelligible] Yeah I think maybe at this point the story's sort of getting away from Bull ummm...so he, I think this is where okay they end up in the yeah let me just check. Ok so this is Friday, yeah so this is Friday afternoon when the Nashville reinforcements have come back and ok so so they're like they kind of lock them in the bus station and ironically the canine corps, Birmingham's famous canine corps is guarding them and so the movement's kind of making having, making jokes about how oh well they're finally you know protecting the right race.

There's the uh Shuttlesworth is with them and he said that he noted that the students were making more than more than necessary use of the white restrooms but they wanted to make sure they really looked nice so they were in there washing their their faces and combing their hair. And then they, you know used up all the vending machines. I think the police came in and turned off the TV so they couldn't watch TV and then they had a nice little slumber party sleeping on the benches waiting you know waiting to get out of Dodge. [Interviewer-And what does that say about the character of... the Freedom Riders, I would think there's some tension there but also this is the group...battle tested...(Unintelligible) so they're in you know they're basically the scariest territory now]Yeah I think at this point maybe there was some recognition that the story was getting a lot bigger than Bull Connor and that at this point the city of

Birmingham could not afford to allow anything to happen to them. The Kennedys are involved now, I think it's starting to feel a lot safer. [Interviewer- so um (unintelligible) Well you know I think it's kinda interesting the original, James Farmer's original plan was completely to get the attention of the federal government. Now SNCC had a whole different orientation they were all about re all about community building and sort of dealing with the grassroots so I don't think they were. that was really on their mind to get the federal government to intervene. In fact, on the contrary I think they were somewhat contemptuous of that kinda strategy they considered that more you know publicity mongering than actual community building and that's what they were all about. [Interviewer-And so now now that we're on publicity the Riders.... is this , you know you mentioned....

getting away from Bull Connor.... the press isn't present tension helping what the Riders....frustrating... (unintelligible) Well,yeah see, well you know the picture that was taken inside the bus station really changed everything. It went out all over the world, it made, it made it gave the Soviet Union huge card to play in the cold war and so it was it was it was already an international incident at this point. I'm not sure whether, honestly I'm not sure whether Bull Connor really understood that and it's possible that the Freedom Riders who were still on his turf were still in incredibly afraid of what might happen. So, but at at this point it's,the story is beyond what anybody can manage and so you know I mean it and it was all thanks to the SNCC kids in Nashville because it could have very easily been called off and you know

it would have just died with that you know with only that photograph coming coming out. The mob, the photograph. Do you want to get into the that CBS had a crew there that they didn't get any footage with Howard K Smith and all that. [Interviewer-unintelligible]Okay I always like a two story scenic cruiser[?] like that detail. So uh so they they they understandably refused to to make the trip to Montgomery without some kind of state escort so there's a National Guard plane overhead and they have a police escorts and then soon as they get to the Montgomery city limit though. The cars, the state cars peel away. Now the police commissioner of Montgomery had repeatedly given the FBI assurances that they were that there would be the policemen on hand at the bus stop to the bus station to guard them. Once again

southern law enforcement comes through. There's nobody there, there's there's no escort to the bus station and again the Riders are greeted with a mob this one having the distinction of having women in it and so they, you know they they get off the bus and the by now there are there's a national news crews and the crews get attacked by the mob as well as the Riders they get chased across the, into the post office. John Lewis gets beat over the head with a coca cola crate. Where they store bottles and it's, you know it's mayhem all over again. [Interviewer-so....the point is.... you mentioned that southern law enforcement...Birmingham...Montgomery(unintelligible] Yeah it's sort of like they didn't quite get the memo that things have

changed, that the order has changed which is actually what happened you know and in Montgomery and Anniston things would never be the same again in southern law enforcement. But just I don't know, interestingly the police commissioner of Montgomery, L.B. Sullivan was the infamous Sullivan vs New York Times who had sued the New York Times for for printing defamatory things about him even though he was not mentioned. And this you know goes on to become this landmark first amendment case that's that sets a standard for ummm you know what public officials could, can claim as libel, there has to be actual malice and reckless disregard of the truth okay, so anyway. [Interviewer-the point is Bull Connor was this guy and ...unintelligible where is the law enforcement] Yeah, they you know, they still they really still thought that you know they whatever the law, whatever they said that the law was down there. Wait, did you have have what Sullivan, let me just look and see. Can you pause it for a sec? [Interviewer-unintelligible]

Okay so when Floyd Mann who's guaranteed the safety of the Riders shows up and he asks a policeman why didn't Sullivan send send anymore patrolmen in and he said oh the men he would have sent would have probably joined the mob. [Interviewer-Well what does that say?] Well they just you know they they they just felt like they could do anything with impunity they thought it was sort of a joke. When Sullivan did show up you know fifteen minutes later and reporters were asking him what's going on. He goes I don't know and by the time I got out there were just three people lining the road two whites and a nigger, you know he, that's what he said. so you know they just thought it was still going to be business as usual that they could they could get away with what they wanted. Wait, okay. [Interviewer-unintelligible there one thing Governor Patterson....unintelligble...press conference he called Martin Luther King..agitator unintelligible].]

Yeah yeah ok. The Kennedys? [Interviewer-Oh,I mean just a little, yes] Yes, okay Governor Patterson was known for his signature carnation in his pocket whenever he made public appearances and he was this you know he's sorta gotten a pass in history but he was actually worse in some ways than George Wallace who, you know, kinda eclipsed him but he as the attorney general of the state he had outlawed the NAACP and was just sort of mean spirited he had been elected governor over George Wallace in 1958 with the support of the the Klan. It was about him that George Wallace said I'll never be out niggered again. So all but the irony though is that he was the first southern governor to

endorse Kennedy for president so he was very apparently very disappointed that Kennedy's hadn't given him a cabinet position because he had gone out on a limb to support these Yankee Democrats. Anyway so he's kinda sulking and he's very unpopular in the capital. They're calling him jittery John and he's refusing to take calls from the president his secretary is saying he's gone fishing. And so he's basically being totally obstructionist and he you know he's saying the sort of classic thing that southerners said about about people like civil rights demonstrators is that they came looking for trouble and I reckon they found it and sure enough he had gone on TV to say that, those very words. [Interviewer-unintelligible] [Interviewer-unintelligible]

[Interviewer-unintelligible] Yeah right, okay. So first the Kennedy background? Okay Do you want me to say about how how he was sort of eclipsed in history by George Wallace but he was actually almost as bad? Okay so yeah John Patterson was was sort of, would be eclipsed in infamy by George Wallace later but he was actually the governor who had, about whom Wallace had said I'll never be out niggered again when he was elected in 1958. He was horrible as attorney general he had a outlawed the NAACP, he had been elected with a Klan support and he, but ironically he was the first southern governor to endorse John Kennedy for president and the Kennedys would later ironically refer to him as our great pal in the south. Apparently some people felt that he was in sort of sulk with the Kennedys because he hadn't

been given a cabinet appointment and he during the Freedom Riders. crisis had been refusing to take their calls. He,his, secretary told them that he was fishing and was unable to come to the phone. [Interviewer-unintelligible] the agitator, what was it again? [Interviewer-The biggest agitator in the world] Yeah, that was when he was coming into Montgomery, right? Yeah There was this cliche in the south that that civil rights demonstrators were looking for trouble and by god they got it and so sure enough Patterson true to form goes on television to to say things to that effect he calls Martin Luther King that the biggest agitator in the world and he's generally you know

being defiant, an obstructionist with the Kennedy administration. [Interviewer-mention real quick (unintelligible). Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah. He was he was known for his signature carnation in the pocket, he was rather jaunty he cleaned up nice so I think people were kinda surprised that he was as big a segregationist as he was. [Interviewer-unintelligible Martin Luther King] Governor Patterson was always known for wearing a jaunty carnation in his pocket when he would make public appearances and so he sure enough went on TV to say that when, that these were troublemakers and when people come looking for trouble they usually find it Was a cliche, every single public official in the south would say this to justify the reaction that civil rights demonstrators got and he said that Martin Luther King was the biggest agitator in the world. He was being

extremely obstructionist and defiant with the Kennedy administration at this point [Interviewer-go to the (unintelligible)] So um okay So the ummm So the attorney general has issued an injunction barring future freedom rides and said the freedom riders had to be kind of hidden and within the community in Montgomery but now there's gonna be a big mass meeting on Sunday evening at Ralph Abernathy's church, First Baptist and so ummm sort of high command of the civil rights movement is now descending upon Montgomery. Martin Luther King's coming Diane Nash is coming down from Nashville. Fred Shuttlesworth was coming down from birmingham Farmer is rejoining the crowd after having buried his father in Washington. So now we had this incredible confrontation being set up.

federal marshals and they you [Interviewer-unintelligible] Yeah so ummm people start arriving in the afternoon and the mob arrives right with them and the Kennedy administration had had caucused on how to deal with this and they decided you know the federal troops were always sort of the last resort the presidents never wanted to seem like they're invading the wrong country so they had cobbled together this force of marshals and they were set up outside Maxwell Air Force base with led by Kennedy justice department lawyers not even by you know military people and so there are these unarmed marshals around the church. Finally as the mob gets more aggressive they start firing off tear gas but you know it's getting really really

hairy inside the church are fred shuttlesworth as least the pickup james farmer at the airport he comes back and tells he doesn't, you know the mob is surrounding the church but Shuttlesworth gets in front of Farmer. Farmer is sort of chief deputy size , Shuttlesworth is a little guy and he, Shuttlesworth just sort of the puffs up his chest says out of the way, out of the way and he leads Farmer through the mob and not a hand is laid on him and Shuttlesworth later said to me, he goes geez I'm just a little fellow but so is Jesus Christ.