American Experience; Freedom Riders; Interview with Rebecca Diane McWhorter, 4 of 4

[Guest]:... people start trickling into the church at around 5 or so and immediately there's a crowd of white people outside that just keeps growing and growing as, as, as the, the evening progresses and, um, finally there's a full scale mob outside the church still no city policemen, um, the Kennedy department has rustled up a rag tag crew of, uh, uh, Marshal's because the last thing they want to do is send in federal troops with all the symbolism of invading the south and, um, so, y- you know, we, the, uh, the, the movement people are now, you know, trapped, [laughs] trapped inside this, this, the church they're burning cars outside, the, um, the Marshals, you know, are, are wearing civilian clothes and have like a arm band around them to identify them, they don't look very formidable at all and, you know, al-, they're just armed with tear gas, so it's, you know, it's, it's uh, getting pretty hairy. [Host]: What does this say that the Kennedys that, you know, the government, usually attorney general can't quell or

control a mob outside of the church? [Guest]: Well, you have to understand that, you know, the division of powers is a, was a, a, uh, kind of sensitive point in the south, you know, that slogan "states' rights" meant that the federal government cannot usurp state authorities, so, you know, this President as all Presidents are w-, you know were, w-, was very conscious of that and I'm not, you know, um, inflaming the, the white citizens of the south, so he was trying to, to keep it as, um, as cool and casual as he possibly could. [Host]: But people's lives were in danger? [Guest]: Yeah, and I, you know, they, i don't think, uh, again I don't think tha-, they didn't quite understand what they were up against, um, and, you know perhaps didn't understand the mob psychology, uh, they also thought, I think that, you know that, uh, at, wh-, what they wer-, what ended up happening and what they were, you know, wh-, what they were aiming at was that if, um, if the Governor couldn't protect them, then they were gonna have to federalize the National Guard and finally, you know,

after threatening, after they threatened Governor Patterson with that, he did call out the National Guard and, and sent them in to, to, to take them home and I love the, the symbolism of the state vehicles, you know, [laughing] as ferrying the black people who were barred from, you know, from vehicles, um, which ser-, you know, created all the crisis in the first place. [Host]: And, um, What about the rest of the country? [Guest]: I, you know, I honestly don't think the country, uh, really could process this this yet, because the Freedom Riders weren't really that popular and, and, and, uh, you know, people did they think they were, they were asking for trouble that wasn't really, you know, that unusual a position to take, so um, I, you know, I know that, um, you know, i-, in terms of the Kennedy administration they were just a-, they were just as worried about how this was making America look in the ?colored? war as they were about the rights of their citizens, and, you know, hence them trying to get it called off at several stages, so it's, you know,

it's, it's uh, I mean, we look back on it now and it seems amazing that, um, that it wasn't clear immediately, but there was this kind of mass psychosis going on, the fact that this country would tolerate, uh, segregation and remember, it was still legal, you know, in the south, so it was, th-, so they were following the law this was just a little bit of the law that referred to interstate travel, you know, so it was, so it's, it's not, it's, it's really hard to look back on that from the modern day perspective when everything they were fighting for we now take for granted, but at the time it w-, it, th-, it, that wasn't the case and in, in fact it took this kind of violence for people to wake up to, uh, to just the, the enormity of the problem and, and, you know, with, without that, as long as it was peaceful nobody, nobody much cared. [Host]: And just one other beat on the Kennedy naivete there, you know, here they are at the, church, and there big solution to use the locals for help, I mean, y-, you know, again, talk about how, like they really think that was the solution, yeah, I can get that they're afraid to be the

imposing Fed, but come on, ?unintelligible? aren't going to do anything. [Guest]: Yeah, um, they were, you know, they were so much still feeling their way they, they so much had no clue about what they were up against that, uh, I don't know if you, if you've, if you've ever been in a crisis, I, I never sort of second guess people because it takes awhile for, for things to sink in and, and yes, that they were, they were definitely naive and, and this was definitely their, their, their, their big introduction into this, this whole new era. [Host]: Would you say that again ?in these Kennedys? [Guest]: Mm hmm Kenned-, uh, ok, um, so, ok wait, I can't now remember what I said. Um, that, um, uh, you mean like if you've ever been in a crisis, yeah, ok, ok, uh, uh, uh, [Host]: ... the Kennedy's were so naive their solution to this mob outside of the church really seems naive. [Guest]: Uh, yeah, but what would you have done, send in the troops? They h- [Host]: Yeah [laughs] [Guest]: Well, they had, well remember they h-, they had troops on standby, you know, they had, they had planes ready to takeoff so, that they were, you know, they were not, th-, they were going to act if they had to, but they wanted to, they really

wanted to force th-, the segregationists to, to do, to do their duty. Um, and that, you know, is I think is probably pol-, the politically smart thing to do, and, and we can look back on that, and s-, since nobody was, was, uh, injured that night to say that it was the, it was the right thing to do, um, but they just, you know, they were, they were still processing all this, they, they, it, it this was the Kennedy's, uh, you know, baptism by fire into the civil rights movement, and, and they, they didn't, they were figuring it out as they went along, there, there was no blueprint yet. [Host]: Okay. Um, now after the church seize, you know, describe Governor Patterson, I mean, he didn't seem, you know, he seems unrepentant and defiant as ever. [Guest]: Yeah, oh God, let's see what, what was the, you know, like what was the [Engineer]: needs a bit more [Guest]: ... so, uh, finally at, at 10:10 that evening, um, a new uniform presence shows up with these federal Marshals and it turns out it's the National Guard and, um, uh, Governor Patterson finally sent in the National Guard

after on-, but only after the Kennedys had said we're flying troops in if you don't do this and, um, and when, when Patterson kept insisting that he couldn't pr-, guarantee their safety Kennedy said, you know, you can s-, go on TV and say that, John, and you can tell that to the A-, the people in Alabama, John, but don't say that to me, John. [Host]: So what do you think he meant by that, w-, what was going on? [Guest]: Uh, he, you know, he, he the Kennedys were exquisitely aware of, of how southern politicians had to demagogue in order to preserve their political standing, but they w-, you know, but they, they sort of thought that they had to be insincere on some level, um, and some were, but so that was his way of saying "I'm not your political audience", you know, and, and you can't tell me that, that the commander of the militia can't guarantee the safety of, of some people in church. So, you know, and i-, i-, it was also his way of saying I understand what your, your political requirements are, it's just don't, don't play that game with me. [Host]: Okay, um,

you know, one thing you said in your book, you described, um, Birmingham in 1963 as America's racial armageddon. How, what [Guest]: Mm hmm, mm hmm [Host]: words would you use for describing, you know, the Freedom Rides of 1961? [Guest]: I, you know, I think of that as being this huge pivot in history, um, [Host]: Sorry, I just want to get you [Guest]: Yeah, the Freedom Rides, yeah, okay, um, okay, except that I'm having [Host]: I don't want to stay in the ?unintelligible? because I don't want to jump forward [Guest]: Yeah, y-, okay, um... so, um, ok, um, ok, uh, I'm just trying to think, I don't want to introduce stuff that ?unintelligible? yeah, the, about the [Host]: ?unintelligible? more sort of ?unintelligible [Guest]: The movement, um, ok, um, ok, um, [Host]: ?unintelligible? [Guest]: Okay, uh, and do you talk about how it, uh, it sort of

radicalized King and, and I mean, put him on the spot and all that? Uh, [Host]: Um, about how, yeah t-, Martin Luther King, they wanted him to ?unintelligible? [Guest]: Er-, they were just devastated you know, that the, do you want me, s-, to talk about that, yeah, um, [Host]: ?unintelligible? [Guest]: I know that, uh the, uh, once after, after the big crisis in Montgomery the, the, uh, SNCC kids fully expected that King was gonna to be on the bus with them to, uh, Jackson, Mississippi and were really crestfallen that he, that he wouldn't and that's when they started calling him, mockingly, De Lawd, uh, because, you know, they, they had really felt that they were, that he was going to take up their cause and put his body on the line with them, and he gave this excuse that he was, you know, on, on probation and he couldn't, you know, he couldn't break his probation and they kind of looked at it and said [laughing] "We're all on probation and we've been sitting-in" and, you know, in, in Asheville and um, and w-, you know, what kind of cockamamie excuse is that? So, um, so it was really kind of a I think it sort of, you know, radicalized the students in a certain way, um,

they, they kind of lost a certain respect for King, and in fact, they, they started looking to Shuttlesworth as, as the elder that they, that they most believed in because he was, himself, was so confrontational and fearless. Um, so, um, okay. Yup, and um, [Host]: Okay, um, do, do, um, I guess kind of a wrap up from ?unintelligible? [Guest]: Uh, okay, yeah, [Host]: I know, you know, you really didn't know, or haven't talked too much about Mississippi but just kind of then, you know, conclude on, sort of, Alabam-, Montgomery and Alabama [Guest]: Yeah, mm hmm [Host]: With the Riders, sort of, crestfallen ?unintelligible? [Guest]: Okay, okay, uh, yeah, I mean, I think, I think of this, I think of the Freedom Rides as, uh, just one of these huge pivots in history that sort of affected everything it touched and, um, it really got, i-, it made the Kennedy administration understand that this was not a crisis to be handled. Um, and that it was something that was gonna keep, uh, keep going on until it was resolved. Um, it also kind of created this division in the movement that hadn't been there before when, when the, uh,

the young, ra-, the young and more militant students realizing that they were, in effect, gonna have to, sort of, you know, uh, row their own boat, in a way, ride their own bus; that, that King wasn't going to be there to lead them, that they were, in effect, going to be leading him. Um, and it also, uh, kind of gave the lie to, uh, you know, the limits of, of law enforcement and, and what, what the justice department, how much they could protect, uh, the, the safety of the citizens because, you know, what happens is that J. Edgar Hoover starts on this vendetta against Martin Luther King as a result of the Freedom Rides, um, and they're on this collision course, you know, that doesn't end until his death, King's assassination, and, um, so it's, you know, it w- it was just this incredible, uh, thing that, that sent history into, into all sorts of, uh, kind of, irre-, irrevocable directions. [Host]: Okay, try, um ?unintelligible? yeah, um, [Guest]: [laughing] Another tyke? Yeah, yeah

[Host]: On describing that era, the '61 Freedom Rides, you know, is it, you know, was it also America's racial armageddon, was it, um, you know, what was it? [Guest]: Um, uh [sighs] ok, let's see, yeah, um, yeah, I think, I, you know, I think it did two things, it certainly brought together all the strands of the civil rights movement, um, really for the first time and, uh, and it, but, but it also showed the country how bad the problem was, and that, that law enforcement wasn't there to protect, you know, half the popula-, nearly half the, you know, a quarter of the population of the south. And, okay wait, you know what let me, let me just think it, yeah, yeah, ok, ok [Host]: unintelligible?

[Guest]: Yeah, le-, alright let me, let me say, let me just say about the white, what, what is, okay, 'cause um, let's see um, I mean, you know, yeah, yeah [Host]: So, basically saying it's, it's ?unintelligible? brought a lot of different people together, but also it exposed Americans ?unintelligible? [Guest]: Yeah, right [Host]: It's ?unintelligible? it seems [Guest]: Yeah, okay, um, right, and it w-, yeah, okay, yeah, uh, ?unintelligible? yeah, okay, so, um, okay you know the, the, the Freedom Rides, sort of, started out as almost this stunt, you know, with a few handful of people and it turns into this thing that consolidates all the strands of the civil rights movement and, and it proves to the country that they're going to go the distance, because they, they keep going on, um, it also was just, was this, sort of, wake up to white America that things were probably worse than they could've imagined in the south, that, that law enforcement did not protect, uh, the black citizens. Um, it also was an international crisis for America because, uh, it, it, it handed, uh,

you know, the Soviet Union all, all sorts of, uh, propaganda in, in this war of, col-, cold war of ideas. And, you know, if, and, and, and, if when we looked at it from their point of view, we, sort of, had no choice but to say "this is democracy?" [Host]: Okay, good, um, got one more ?unintelligible? [Guest]: [laughing] Okay, um, okay, let's see, I think I can do th-, the stuff about the white, let me just actually think about how that, okay, um, we-, the Freedom p-, the Freedom Rides were this huge turning point, both within the history of the movement, the history of the country, the history of the world. Uh, in terms of the movement what had started out as this, kind of, fringe-y, you know, publicity stunt, uh, turned into this major, uh, uh, event, ongoing crisis that united the, all the strands of the civil rights movement. Uh, the NAACP, SNCC, SCLC, all the, you know, various groups; CORE, of course. Um, for white

America, I, I think it was, it really woke them up to how bad things were, that, um, that law enforcement was not gonna protect, uh, black citizens, that um, that there had to be some kind of systemic way to address this, uh, but it wasn't gonna happen from, from the states themselves. And then, internationally it really, you know, sort of, challenged America's role in the cold war because the Soviet Union could, could look at the way we treated our, our black citizens and say "wow, this is democracy, this is, this is the best that you can do?" [Host]: And then, uh, maybe you can flip it and then ?unitelligible? finish [Guest]: Mm hmm and then it made America act or ?unintelligible? [Guest]: Ah, okay, so, uh [sighing] ha, ok, well, let's see no, nothing's tidy, I don't wanna, um, do you mean to, uh, okay, so, um, ok, so, you know, I, you know, I, I think it sort of pointed the way to the,

to the next stage of the moment, which is that there had to be a combination of the spectacle, you know, the sort of stunt aspect, but there also had had to be incredible coordination and community building for it to happen if, for it, f-, okay, do you want ?unintelligible? okay, ?unintelligible? okay, okay [Host]: ?unintelligible? got it, so put all that together [Guest]: You mean the whole thing? [laughing] [laughing] Ah, I think I need a drink of water. Okay, okay, okay [Host and Engineer]: ?unintelligible? [Host]: Just one more ?unintelligible? [Guest]: Okay, okay, um, okay, um, well, the Freedom Rides were just a huge pivot in the history of the country. Number 1, um, in terms of the civil rights movement, it, uh, what started out as this, kind of, publicity stunt, you know, from a group of fringe radicals, had turned into this, um, you know, month's long, um, campaign that united all the strands of the civil rights moment, um, in terms

of the mainstream country, it showed, you know, it, sort of, showed white America how, that it was much worse than anybody imagined in the south, that, that the states were not going to solve the problem themselves, that law enforcement was not going to protect its citizens, and that there was going to have to be some kind of, probably, federal, you know, ?sister? or systemic action to, to bring about a change. And finally, internationally it, it, uh, really set back America's, uh, sort of, moral, um, dominance in the, in the cold war because the, the Soviet Union could, could, could use this and, uh, and say, you know, uh, this is, y-, "this is democracy, uh, this is the best you can do" And so what you see is that it, sort of like, points to the, t-, to the next chapter of the movement where, um, you know, the movement realizes that it's, it's, you need the spectacle on one hand, but you also need the, the intense, sort of, grassroots coronation and then, you know, we're, we're onto the, to the next

chapter. [Host]: Okay, anything else you want [laughing] [Guest]: [laughing] Oh, let's see, ?unintelligible? you know, I think, one thing that we have to remember in, in revisiting this past is that what, what comes out is the story between, this battle between the good guys and the bad guys was actually a battle between the good guys and normal. I mean, everything that we now consider bad at the time was considered acceptable to s-, to a, a huge section of the country and, you know, I, I think that's, that's what is is, is sort of, hard t-, to remember when, when, when it's, sort of, broken down into into the conflict, but this was, this was us, this was really what, what we were and what felt all right to us for a really long time. [Host]: Good [Guest]: Okay ?unintelligible? [Host]: Alright, let's do ?unintelligible? were there any lines that you think need picking up ?unintelligible? [Engineer]: Still rolling [2nd Engineer]: Okay, um, everyone hold still, this is room tone Alright, thank you