American Experience; 1964; Interview with George Lois, part 2 of 2

I mean, he compared himself to Jack Johnson, but Jack Johnson, not funny about Jack Johnson. And Jack Johnson really was hated because on top of everything, in fact, he was a champion of the world. He had a white woman, you know, Mohammed was really careful about that, you know, Cassius and he was very careful about that. If you ask, when, I said, you know, Mohammed, what, I mean, a couple times that you were really scared. He was two times, so what, before, before the lesson fight, I was scared, to the point where I didn't quite know what I was doing, and when I was 13 and a boy by the name of Emmett Till, so a photograph of a boy by the name of Emmett Till in Jet magazine, I think it was, you know, with his face chopped up, you know, sitting in a coffin, you know, when

he came down from Chicago to visit his grandmother and walked into a store and supposedly whistled at a white woman. He said, I kept, I didn't look at a white woman, I didn't look at a white woman in the eyes for 15 years, he said. Ali said it. Yeah, like this, and like this, he talked to every white woman like this. And in quite catch, when you began that story, what that was, those are, just help me fill in that, to lead into that story, you just told me, who was that, who were those examples? That was about Ali or Cassius Clay telling you that? Yeah. I just didn't, yeah, I once asked Muhammad, you know, many times when you really fed in your life, you know, he said, and he said two times, listen, he said, I was, I think it's

like where I was scared, shit, but he said, I mean, he really was, I mean, I mean, he, I mean, he was, he was actually like a load of ticket the way in. He said, that's because I was actually like a lunatic, you know, and of course, of course at the professional he is, he goes into the ring, and in the middle of the first round, you know, he was going to be okay. Yeah, he's going to be seven to one under now. Yeah, sure. You knew he was, you knew he was going to be under control, you know, and this, that thing about, you know, what about the other thing that Clay does, is he's, he meets Malcolm X? Yeah, I mean. What's that all about? What does that tell you about America and that one? He was a great influencer on Malcolm X, but incredibly, I think he taught Malcolm X something. What?

Well, Malcolm spent his life, you know, Malcolm was talking about the White Devil. I mean, that was his, you know, that was his stand-up today procedure. He was talking about the White Devil, and not examples of the White Devil, but the White Devil's period. We're all White Devil's mom, it was never that way. I've never heard him say anything about White Devil, I mean, in fact, if he talked about a devil, he would say, we got, we got many goddamn Black Devil's in White, and you guys got White Devil's, you know. I think, by the time Malcolm was assassinated, he had gone to the point where he realized there was a lot of White people in this world that are good people, you know. What is it about Islam, and I'll leave this kind of radio right now? Well, what's amazing about him when Islam is, he was, as a young boy, he had a Bible on his hand most of the time, you know, he would, he would run sometimes to school holding

a Bible, a lot of people in his neighborhood would say, he knew the Bible, he read the Bible all the time. He was considered in his neighborhood as a good old Baptist boy, you know, by his, by everybody. I, I had a lot of sessions with the Muhammad even when he had, you know, when it was showing the ill-affects of his, of his, of his, of his, of the Parkinson's, that, where he would have the Bible over here, and he would have the, you know, the Korean here, and he would compare this and that, and the, and the, it was the Old Testament, by the way, yeah. And as world's fairers go, right, not much of what, is it? Yeah.

Oh, they would suck. Everything about it, starting with their logo, starting with that, the world, the destroyed world, you know, where you sort of, the inside of the world, they wish to be thick, as you see, right off the bat, you said, don't forget about it, you know, the, the, the, the 1939, you saw the, you trial on the Paris fear, and you said, you know, it's godly, wonderful, exciting, dramatic, you know. But I, I mean, I, but I grew up, you know, I was, I, I was born in 31, so in 39, I was eight years old, most feeling anything in the world, I go to the world's fair, you know, my, my whole family would go to the world's fair, when I went, many times, it's, sometimes I would deliver flowers and queens, and my father knew I would hop a bus to go to world's fair for another hour, so I'd come home, you know. Did you, did you sneak in, you didn't, you know, sneak in, did you go to the 64th? And I think, I think I went for half an hour and I got the hell out of there. Incredible new product to stay beautiful at the world's fair, the Ford Mustang. Yeah, sure.

You remember the Mustang? Sure, of course. What does that tell you about America in 1964? The fact that car becomes the hottest selling car? I don't know, I never had that much feeling about the Mustang, you know, I'm not a car guy. Yeah. You know, all I knew was I liked the name, and I, I know the young guys, I, I, I, I knew to have that car. Very logo. Yeah. Oh, sure. Um, what's the conventional image of women in 1964, but feminine mystique is, you know, he's become a paperback best seller. Yeah. Well, working in the advertising, unlike bad men, you know, and, you know, and they're womanizing and they're being anti-Semitic and racist and, um, and talentless, et cetera, et cetera. And in the advertising business, like, when I worked at Duol Dane Broadbach, they were seven, six or seven woman copywriters, including their head copywriter.

Um, we, we worked, I worked in, in advertising where we worked with women all the time. When I started my eight, eight, eight to see, our first account person was at a woman, and I had woman writers, et cetera. And I didn't experience in business that kind of, um, you know, I mean, women were more respected, you know, more, so, um, but, but obviously, uh, the womanizing and the, uh, male shamanism, you know, abounded, you know, um, and, uh, in America. The first touch of, uh, talking about, uh, in, in Esquire was, when, uh, that I got involved with was when there was a article on the mask, give a mask, you know, the, theization of the American woman, I forgot who wrote it. And it was, and I did a cover, uh, where I say, you want a woman to act masculine like

a photograph, a beautiful blonde shaving, you know, which knocked every, I mean, Gloria Steinem hated it. Oh, my God, that she hated that, oh, my God, that she hated that. She didn't talk to me for three years, you know, uh, but in 1964, you did an act with the cover of all the best-looking stewardesses. Yeah, yeah, because I mean, I, when I did, I refused in all those times to do, and how he didn't want, uh, you know, or girly covers, but his, his, uh, advertising people, his advertising salespeople, saying, get some do-some girl, man, the people that scram out, he said, some girly covers, girly covers, like, can't, you know, people are advertising one girly covers, you know, I wouldn't do it the girly cover. I mean, that's that what, you know, I, I know the men's magazine, but the point is I made sure that everything we did, we did a lot of covers that were just fun, but I, I, I, I, refused to do it, um, uh, I think the issue was going to be, there was going to be, um,

it was a big travel, it was a big travel worldwide travel issue, so I figured, hey, this, this would be fun. Get all the, go to all the airlines, all the, uh, international airlines, and have them, have them send me their best-looking two or three women, and take a shot of them all, and then write down who they are and what airline, and I'm telling you, the men were calling airlines and saying, can I get a flight with her, get a flight with her, I mean, it was, it was sexism, it was sexism, and it's, it's, it's most beautiful light, you know, it was, I mean, I thought it was delightful, you know. And, and women loved it too, you know what I mean, I, I, I didn't get, I didn't get the, I didn't get the glorious, the wonderful, glorious animals in the world, they have to be on that one.

Not every one of your covers could be a bomb, you have to have some that were, uh, not quite so radioactive, right? No, no, I would, I told Harold, uh, Harold, I'm going to do a bomb, I'm going to do, I'm going to do an H bomb, and then we'll take it easy for a couple of months, and then we'll do it. You know, I, I'm, I, I didn't have purpose, I, I think if I did one every month, it would have been too much. I mean, I mean, one day I called him up, and I said, look, I want to do a cup, everybody loves him. He said, oh, what's wrong with you? What's wrong with you? He said, no, now I want to do a cup, there was a show called The Untouchables, it was perfect, and I'm going to do the, uh, cover, the unknockables, and let's take a photograph of six or seven or eight or nine people that everybody loves. He said, George, oh my God, don't do this to me. You know, you would say that you thought I was checking it out. I said, no, it'd be nice, you know, so, uh, got a list of people that got everybody

loved, you know, and I said, I said, I've got to go, go get them for me, but make sure Jimmy Duranty is one of them, you know? I said, what's the, what's the one I did something for me, you know, meet Jimmy Duranty, you know? When I met Jimmy Duranty, I went up to him, I said, start off each day with a song. Even when things go wrong, you'll look, you'll feel better, you'll even look better. Ah! Right? He died there for you. It was fun in doing, uh, those covers and all my advertising where I, you know, shoot with famous people, et cetera, and shoot, and use them in a really conceptual way, you know? I did advertising and I did the commercial with Joe Lewis, you know, who had been screwed by the US government, you know, after, after he fought, it was in the army, fought for the army and, uh, for the army, uh, army relief and after the war, they want him to pay taxes on a bouncy fort and he never got a penny, you know?

And I did a commercial, a stock book, I wasn't handy, he looked at the camera and said, I just want to say one thing, I wasn't handy, where were you and I needed you? You know? So, I mean, I took my, my, my use of celebrities is very conceptual. Yeah, it's great. Um, do you remember when, uh, Freedom Summer was going on and the Civil Rights? Uh, kids, uh, the, the, the, the, the, the one, I really remember, and I'm not sure what the year was, was, uh, James Baldwin wrote a story for, for Esquire, uh, talk about the upcoming summer, saying it's going to be a hot summer, it's going to be bad, and he was kind of pushing for one, you know, very, very militant. You were there in 64 in New York and, and Harlan kind of goes up and, not in smoke,

particularly, but there these, there these amazing shocking riots, to that, to that, uh, penetrated into the year and world. Oh, yeah, I, I, I forgot the year it was, but it was maybe a year later, I did a, I did a cover, it was, when Lindsay was mayor, I did a cover and I found, uh, I, I, my wife, I played a lot of ball back then, I still do. And I found seven or eight, tough looking black, young black men. And I sat them in a, an ice house to cool off, and I had them sitting on gigantic tubes of ice, like, and it's a very disappointing cover because Lindsay was going to be with them in the, the mayor was going to be in the shot, Thomas three, four times, and he didn't show up.

And I wanted, I wanted a, I wanted a kid said, but a young guy said that you didn't think that, that, that blue-eyed blonde white motherfucker was going to show up, did you? Perfect, um, the Supremes hit the charts, number one in August, yeah, ball gowns, white kid gloves, what's that all about? I don't know, not sure, you know, um, it's gargoyle being smart about selling black sexuality to white people, yeah, you know, well, the, the, the, the, the, the first guy would, maybe, I think the first guy with that, with sexuality of black men to white was Chubby Chuck is, right, you know, Chubby, what's interesting to me about 64 is you get this film, Berkeley free speech movement, happens 64, yeah, uh, the Beatles come, there's young Americans for goldwater, for freedom, yeah, goldwater has got a huge group of, yeah, young

white-wing kids, yeah, sure, sure, so like, I think there's something going on, I mean, goldwater for freedom, like, actually more on, there's this movement, yeah, the, the, the whites against the blacks, yeah, yeah, well, I, I, I think, I think music, music, and, and black rhythm blues, you know, turned on young people, you know, and, um, and, and that really helped end some, a lot of real, like racism in America, you know, I mean, it was kind of a beautiful thing that you can sit there and, and I, I love, I love black culture and it was black culture, right, right, um, yeah, to a tiny bit, a world, just a couple more questions, sure, all that touch up just for two or two or three more questions, yeah,

so remember what we're trying to do, do you remember the cover I did with JFK, RFK, and Dr. King, and I was 68. Yeah, too late. Yeah, too late. I wish. Yeah, go ahead. So, imagine 64, are the genies kind of let out of the bottle in this year, you think about music, you think about politics, you think about youth culture, you think about women, you think about Vietnam? Yeah, but, you know, the most important thing I was going on was every male and America trying to stay out of the war. Every male and America was draft dodging, trying to, for one, because, they were checking or two, because they were really against the war. You know, that's what, that's what I felt all the time, I mean, I, that, you know, and- But in 64, the war is really, but America troops don't go into 65. So, you, but you were

feeling it even in 64, where a lot of people Vietnam was off the radar. Sure, that's why I've had screaming fights with Bobby about it, and Bobby was saying, oh, no, no, no, this is an important thing, this is an important thing. And what happened is Ali, when Ali refused to step forward, and he would not join the army, that's when the shit hit the fan. That's when he started, that's when it was, and that's, by the way, at the point where everybody started hated Ali, blacks hated him because he got changed his religion, many blacks hated him, and white hated him because he was a big mouth white kid, and everybody hated him because he was a traitor, big black kid, and, and, and, and, and he was a traitor, you know, and he took his stand, he wouldn't do it, and he lit it, and, and Dr. King, you got to understand that Dr. King and that black leaders never said anything against the Vietnam War, because they would, they had, it's not that they had a deal with LBJ, but they didn't want to piss off LBJ because they had

they won't fish the fry with the, with the Civil Rights Act, and the black leaders were saying, they were saying to Dr. King, Dr. King, please reference, stay away from it. And, and, and, and, and, and, and Dr. King finally came out when I did the Esquire cover with him as Ali, he finally came out at that point, and he came out with a, with a statement against the Vietnam War, there were ten times gruffer than Ali, that anything Ali ever said. He said, no black, no young black man, no young Negro should fight in the war, you know, you know, in a war of genocide, I think he even said that, you know. I mean, my, my battle with, with, with, with Bobby Kennedy about the war was literally saying to him, you're sending young men into harm's way, who happened to be 18, 19 years old, and, and, and, and, and, and, and basically a racist army. He said, excuse me, a racist army, racist army. All I heard, all I heard was guk, you know,

the slantide, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, oh that's all I heard. I mean, when I was in the army, that's all you heard. I mean, there wasn't a, and, and, and, and young black and young Americans who were racist, who killed anything that moved, killed anything that moved, that was Korean. I mean, I, if you think back to the day before Kennedy was killed in the world that you didn't have it at then. Right. And you think of the world 12 months later, it's just before our American troops are going to go in, they go in in March of 65, anything, anything, what's changed in that, in that 12 month period? All I know is you had presidents who kept saying that they're going to the war because the war

was becoming very unpopular because most young American men were draft, were trying to stay out of the war. You know, I mean, we wouldn't have had Iraq. I don't think we had a draft, you know, and that's why when some people said, gee, there should be a draft, and I said, what are you crazy? Then I realized, you know, what, if we had a draft, we wouldn't have gone into Iraq, you know, because you'll have America, America's going to say, what are you doing? I'm not going to send my son to Iraq, but it's like, I'm saying, you know, so you had presidents that kept saying, promising the American people that will end the war and end the war and they didn't, they just made it worse and worse and worse and worse, you know, I mean, it's almost, you know, it's almost the muscle memory, you know, you want to, you know, I mean, you know, starting with the Mexican American war when we took, when we took

most of them from Mexico away, you know, from the Mexicans, you know, I mean, what a crazy history we have, and we have people, and we have a nation that took over a land of Native American, committing incredible genocide in America. I mean, we have our history of vicious history, vicious. When people talk about how great America is, you know, I mean, I think I'm glad, I'm glad I'm American, you know, because, but boy, what a history we have, and it's continuing, that continues and continues, you know, at least never-ending wars, unnecessary wars, you know, pitiful, you know. We're good. Let's just do 30 seconds in Room Town, and now. Room Town for George Lux. In Room Town, George