American Experience; Stonewall Uprising; Interview with Virginia Apuzzo, 2 of 3

An Expensive. An Expensive. Again, we'll free riot still in the free riot mode. Do you remember coming to New York City and thinking of it as it's someplace different in the rest of the country? I considered Greenwich Village very separate from anything I'd ever seen as a matter of fact. There were two locales that drew me as a youngster. One was Greenwich Village and the other was Provincetown and I had no idea why. It's just that I felt like I could breathe there. I didn't know any gay bars there. I didn't know any particular people there, but they just seemed to provide the kind of atmosphere that said it's okay to kind of relax a little here. And the 60s, the village must have been filled with all kinds of counterculture types.

All the counterculture was here, but none of the counterculture said gay welcome. None of the countercultures said homosexuality is fine. You saw men with women, women with men and you didn't see any variation to that, at least I didn't. But it seems almost ironic looking back anyway that here's this mecca of people who are free to love and when we open the cart from shore everywhere, it's a totally way of being. It was free, but not quite free enough for us. There was no place for us yet, it just wasn't there. I mean, I know that it's hard for people today who are surrounded by every conceivable opportunity to connect, whether it's Twittering or Facebook or the computer, the fact of the matter is there was no way to connect.

That's why visibility was such a critical issue for us. That's why that group that stood up and said enough is enough. Focused our attention on what they did, where they were, what it meant, what would it mean for me. That's why this is such a critical moment in our history because with that explosion and that sense of outrage that we've just had enough came the permission, the permission that we gave to one another. The ability to find one another was a whole new experience. Is it, do you remember how you felt when you heard about this riot? Yes. I? Those are the drums from the riot. I remember hearing about the riot, whether it was on the radio or whether I remember it right about it in the newspaper, I do remember it vividly coming to me that something

is happening. There's somebody else out there. There's somebody else out there and those somebody's are more than just one other person. That's what pulled me to go down to the village to just walk around and see any of these people part of the somebody's, you know, and it was inspiring and exciting and it forced you to ask questions, haven't you just been hidden long enough? Haven't you just hidden long enough? You were personally inspired by it. Personally inspired. I was personally inspired by it. It meant I cannot imagine my life with that stone wall. I cannot tell you where my life would be or have been without stone wall. It changed my life. It put me on a trajectory that said, stone wall marked the beginning of a trajectory for me that basically pulled me along in my life.

I've never lost my sense of outrage, righteous outrage at injustice. Now I could feel a sense of outrage about the injustice that was done to us. The movement gave us that opportunity. It was an opportunity for us to come together and recognize that we can redeem each other. We can save each other's lives. And also, what aspect do you think struck you as you first heard about it? Fury. The first thing that I related to in terms of hearing about stone wall was they had enough to. Somebody else had had enough of this hiding, enough of this being pushed back, enough

of this swallowing and not breathing. So that was the first thing, the sense of righteous anger. And the second thing was the other, to find the other, to find others, to become visible to each other. So interesting how every day, one or two, one over in the left with just a couple of papers. Can you imagine how exciting it was for some kid, some young person to feel that they're all alone in the world and then suddenly there was a place in which someone else was going to be there that night, where you could find that person, and sometimes in the daylight, coming out of the darkness into the daylight, it was so exhilarating, it was so exciting and so redeeming. Did you keep something in front of it and your wallet or something?

I did for years. I kept a little news clip about the article about the riot, one of the nights I'm sure it wasn't the first one, but I kept one for years in my wallet. As I did when Anita Bryant came on the scene, I kept that in my wallet for a long period of time as well. I'm not sure if it was the radio or the newspaper when I was in the convent and heard about Stonewall, but whatever it was, it was a huge blast of enlightenment to me. What I'm not sure about, how did you stay in the convent, how did Stonewall sort of like determine your future at the convent? Stonewall moved me to leave the convent and to basically within months become involved in the movement, and I've been involved, this is about 38, 39 years, I've been involved

in our movement. Were you aware of the Madison or the... No, I wasn't aware of that at all. Actually the first group I was aware of was the Firehouse and then the Lesbian Feminist Liberation Group and the Gay Academic Union. Those were my avenues of entry into the gay community. So, there were these other groups that met, they met more quietly, some of the suits and jackets and ties, why did you know about them and why was it Stonewall? Well, Stonewall hit the newspapers, Stonewall made it to the newspapers. These other groups I found out a couple of years later, I mean, you know, the Gay Academic Union didn't just bubble up the next day after Stonewall. Stonewall started fomenting of the, you know, the grassroots and groups emerged. Also, because what is show to a lady, to help the street kid, not entirely kid, to

relate a core group of young kids, you know, pushed back against police force, you know, the big Irish cops I had, there were a lot of them, you know, these are people who never felt they had any voice. They never felt they had any voice, the people who felt they never had any voice. I think it's curious that the people who finally raised their, I always say, you know, limperists became clenched fists, you know, I think the people who finally raised their fists, were people who felt they had nothing left to lose. The people who had something to lose were very protective of their identities, very closeted. But a lot of these folks at Stonewall felt like they had nothing left to lose.

How much pushing can you take? And I think that exploded. And I don't think anybody could have anticipated it was going to happen until it happened. And that in some measure is how the movement keeps going. You know, I've often said Stonewall Libs, Stonewall isn't in the past tense, Stonewall Libs, every time, you know, okay, calm down. We both for that way, we were. Q, you're going to go in your room? Yeah, yeah, yeah, right, it was going to get into sort of a Stonewall Libs, a sort of

retrospective look at it. What was it? What do you think was, was Stonewall an isolated event or is there something that's buried on? Stonewall has never fallen into the past tense, Stonewall Libs, every time there's a gay pride parade, Stonewall Libs, every time a kid steps off a curb and joins a parade, puts on a button, tells another person, comes out to another person, Stonewall Libs, Stonewall is not the past, Stonewall is part of the movement forward and it keeps happening and it keeps happening and it keeps happening. It's a dynamic force in the movement and so I always think of Stonewall as something that continues and goes on and there's that fury, there's that eagerness, there's that anticipation, there's that excitement, every time someone steps out of the closet and

every time someone steps out of the closet, new things come into this movement, it revitalizes the movement. It keeps the movement something that is growing and changes and in larges and embraces and is vital. Can you mention, I mean, what was the, how is Stonewall carried on every year and had you ever been to any of these events because it was about the parade and it's huge? I could tell you a very funny story about that. I testified before a federal judge on one of the Clinton stuff, you know, when we're all on this but it's it's and I was a testifying before a judge and they with some radical right guy was saying, when you went to the parade with Mrs. Clinton, I said, I wasn't at the parade, I wasn't even at the parade, came home, told Barbara, they accused me of being at the parade with Hillary. She said, what you're telling me?

I said, I wasn't even there. She said, you were the grand marshal, I just forgot, that's how many parades I've been in. So yes, I've been in in gay pride parades that were so meager in the early days in terms of the numbers of people, not the energy, the numbers of people and I've been in parades where we've had to hire police to protect us and those very police personnel would hand out anti gay literature to those of us who were paying them to protect us. I've been in marches in, you know, Huntsville, Alabama, Selma, Alabama, Oklahoma City, Eugene, Wichita, all over all over all over this country and every time there's one of those parades, it revitalizes who we are, it renews our commitment to who we are and it renews the movement. I mean, when you imagine 1970, first parade, was that a bone move, what did that mean? Well, it meant that people were, the first parade after Stonewall, I stood on the sidelines,

that's how I know that your life changes when you step off the curve. I stood on the sidelines, I was thrilled, I was excited, I wanted to participate, but I have a sense of what courage it took to step into that river of people, that river, that stream that was going forward and stepping into it is a life changing experience, standing and walking and marching alongside of brothers and sisters, suddenly they are your brothers and sisters, they're not strangers, they are your brothers and sisters and you have that sense of, we do belong. Did you ever imagine that the riots would change history and you really start a whole movement? No, I didn't believe the riots would have the repercussions that they've had, but their repercussions are undeniable, they are, they are, as I say, they reverberate through

the movement every year. The planet, right? And I just, very good. Like, I thought, yeah, we mentioned it, you can, I don't know how much you knew about, you know, who was in power in New York City, but did you have a feeling of what was going on in the 1960s, 1960s, 1960s, 1960s, you know, with a mayor, a man with you, a coach, or anything like that? I didn't, I worked for coach in the first coach administration, but I am, and I've testified before the committee, you know, almost every year they had the hearing on it, but before that, right around the time of Stonewall, I was not tuned in to who was in power and so I was, you know, in the content, but once I came out, I was very involved in politics. The raids, crackdowns, were you aware of that as far away?

Only after, only after the original Stonewall rebellion, then we became aware, then as you went to a gay bar, you were very conscious of the fact that, you know, a red light could come on and you could have a problem and you had a sense that you were vulnerable, even after Stonewall, your vulnerability continued in those bars. I thought it was great, but you often navigate in the impossible sound, you know, my, we keep going back, because we have weird children and we want to go under like, you know, what lessons do you have in Stonewall, what do you think Stonewall is going to be in the big picture of history? In the big picture of history, Stonewall is one more cry to remember the dignity of

human beings and respecting the struggle of human beings as they try to be, all that they can be. We could go back to other movements and certainly they've been struggles for human dignity. This particular struggle, I think, is one in February, it didn't come on now that it's April. Now we keep a good sense of humor about it, that's all, let's just keep a good sense of humor about it. I'm Italian, we blow gaskets all the time, that doesn't faze me, anyway, ask the question again, I forgot the question. What do you hope Stonewall might need in the future generation?

My aspiration for the movement is that we will see ourselves as being able to connect with other movements, of recognizing that we're not struggling just to make it okay to be gay lesbian by sexual transgender, we're struggling to make it okay to be, that the interdependence of us, the fact that our experience, having tasted oppression, helps us relish liberty and relish equality and relish and appreciate the struggle other people go through. And be worthy allies to that movement, I would never, I don't think I would have lasted this long in the movement if all it was about was to make it okay to be gay. I think this movement is about recognizing that there is human dignity in groups that are marginalized and exiled and that human being in exile, the intent is to deprive them

of their humanity and that's an unforgivable assault on a human person. So then is it fair to say that you personally feel that Stonewall was not just the beginning of the day? I think it was the beginning of the gay movement, but I think it's up to the people who are part of this movement to make Stonewall live in a spectrum of human experiences that have been about oppression, that have been about keeping people down. How can I demand my human dignity, my equality, my liberty if I don't have a simpatico, a empathy, an empathy with the struggle that other people feel in this world and that's what I think will make this movement different than any other movement because we are everyone, we are everywhere, then everyone and everywhere is a part of our experience and we can bring

our energy to that. I think it's very important. Do you think it required a kind of a first and an explosion of rage in order to get change will happen? I think you manifest, you make manifest to people, some expression of... He's the guy with the headphones. I think what's uniquely American in the movement and what we aspire to is that it's what's uniquely American in the movement and what we aspire to is that America has made

the promise, America promised us liberty, America promised us freedom and equality and the movement wants America to live up to its promise and I think we carry that to the world, America has carried the message of liberty and freedom to the world in many instances and I think in this instance it's up to us to carry that message, that's part of why the movement has to have a vitality, that's why it's not a series of actions, it's a movement, it goes towards something. Absolutely, I believe in every gay pride parade there's a mother who for the first time is going to put her arm around that son or daughter and every gay pride parade there's a mother who's decided to step into that PFLAG group and say I love my gay son, I love my lesbian

daughter, there's a bisexual transgender person who steps off and joins in a group and that is energy, that is vitality, that's what makes Stonewall live on. It's very American to aspire, it's very American to say this is not right, it's very American to say you promised equality, you promised freedom deliver and in a sense that the Stonewall riots basically said get off our backs, deliver on the promise and the movement has been reiterating that all along and as we celebrate every year somebody else is touched, somebody else is vitalized, somebody else is engaged, somebody else drops the bigotry, so Stonewall

lives, I've seen the brutality of bigotry up close and personal, I can remember being in Houston, Texas and being asked by the community to come to see a man who was attacked by three straight men tied to a bedside, had his throat slit 23 body wounds and was left to dead, left for dead, I went to the hospital to meet him, I've never seen a slit throat before, this 23 year old Mexican man looked at me and said how could this happen in America, I was stunned, I never, I know his name to this day, his first name is Ferron, to this

day I can remember him looking up and say how could this happen in America, well I came back to the National Gay Task Force and we started the anti-gay violence project and what people have to see is you must make the bigotry vivid so people can say as they said in the black civil rights movement when they saw hoses put on little children that's not me, that's not American, I wouldn't do that, when you show them what their biggest tree does to the lives of other people, whether it's violent acts or that cowardly bigotry that remains nameless, that's a violence, that's a destruction of the spirit and I think that's what the black civil rights movement rebelled against and that's what this civil rights movement rebelled against and I said the riots, there was violence, it's interesting that violence was finally turned around and used the human, other things were also, but

also these kids were willing to live their lives, this is not a funny situation, the guy is really close and guns, coffee guns, he could have been a bloodbath, still alright, what does it make to be willing to go okay, I'm now jumping into the bloodbath? Well I've seen what stops people, I was in Vienna at an international lesbian gay human rights conference years ago and the community had a dance afterwards and we were all drinking and having a gay old time and in came the Austrian police, I don't know if you know what Austrian police dress like, but they were high at least in those days they were high leather boots, peaked hats and they were carrying automatic weapons and while I didn't understand Austrian I knew by their gestures that they were making snide remarks and the music was turned off and everybody got silent, all I could think about was Stonewall, my Italian temper

reared up and I was standing next to a British woman who said look and I looked over a two women from Eastern European block and they were terrified, I looked at Latin American women who were there and they didn't know that an American feels like I can rebel against this, I've had enough, I'm finished with this because that was my inclination, but looking at those women I saw what their experience told them about rebelling the police, they might not come back, they may disappear, so that was my personal experience with remembering what it is to be an American and as bad as it is, it's not quite as bad as it is in other places. And in COF they do you think that you really encountered the police in New York City? I have not had encounters with the police in New York City but I was arrested in Washington

at a demonstration, I've been handcuffed and all that stuff, with contempt. The police dealt, whether you were talking about police in New York City or police around the country, they dealt with the lesbian gay community with contempt, they looked at us as something less than human and they made it manifestly clear that the rules that applied to everybody else and how they dealt with citizens didn't apply to us. Entrapment, blackmail, bribery, all of it, all of the possible ways in which you exploit the oppressed were visited upon gay people and their vulnerability was greater in the closet to those things than it would have been had they come out.

Think of the film advise and consent where the homosexual commit suicide and then think today in the financial streets we are Bonnie Frank heading up the finance efforts to get us out of this fiscal crisis that we're in. It's a remarkable journey that if you lived it was a long one. If you look back on it, it looks like a minute. The other piece of it is that no other group, the women's movement, we were the lavender

menace to the feminist movement. In the black movement member, Bayard Rustin was virtually pushed aside in the African-American movement. There wasn't a place to bring who you are to what you did. It's that simple until there was a gay liberation movement. Then you could bring who you were to what you did and either you suffered the consequences because someone outright pointed a finger at you or they had to adjust.