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Good evening tonight America and Israel. Daniel Barragan and Hans Morgenthal debate we'll have our second report on Brooklyn politics the Brownsville organization and we'll meet two men from the Long Island Railroad with lots of hair but perhaps no jobs. My name is John Hamilton. All of this and more on tonight's one hour edition of the 50 first date. Seventeen million people in Greater New York. It's great. News and such an incredible rate. As I said it gets pretty good kind of blades. And that's why we've come to be city as a 50 first date. Last night the first day looked at the pieces that make up the Brooklyn Democratic machine as the first part of a series which we are continuing and calling target Brooklyn tonight target Brooklyn continues with a report on the operations of the democratic organization and

one community Brownsville and through one man Sam right right is one of the state's most powerful black politicians. He personifies the power of the machine. After five terms as an assemblyman Wright resigned and in November was elected as a member of that city council right. Controls the following activities in Brownsville the Community School Board the Community Planning Board the anti-poverty Community Corporation. The Democratic district leadership the assembly seat and the City Council seat. It is quite a power base but then as we Feldstein reports Sam right is quite a man. This is Sam right. One of the city's least known and most powerful legislators from his Brownsville base right as a heavy player and city and state politics to his supporters right is a seat giving long hours and much muscle to the needs of Brownsville. Rights opponents can see the hours and the muscle that Wright puts in but they

say it benefits only Wright's own political club and allies. A top Lindzi official described working with Wright as like being fascinated by a cobra down right had made the point that I don't know what we had together. We tried to be a professional matter with all of our children and all the rest of the community will be proud of. I would make that suggestion to you if you have any difficulty in not getting a job and come back to see me here joining me. I'm a single guy. He's not really another board of education. You know the school board president I should say. Is a legislator and so they listen. It is beyond that as well. I think it's the authority that he carries with him. So how are you. Very good I spoke to run by folks yesterday. He got that matter in Brownsville right now. I just

want you to know that Concord is having fun raising field to raise some money for the nursing home. And I'd like you to make a $50 contribution to being here somewhere between 7:30 and 8:00 o'clock in the morning and I'm here with them. And we called here about 7:30 in the evening and from here we go to meeting in the community. And the day ends. I imagine the battle ended to night. Jeannette Gadsden is Sam rights executive assistant and is paid by the Board of Education. Opponents charge that she also handled rights private law practice that she solicits contributions from job holders for rights political club and that she acts as right standing on several key community boards. As a member of the political organization I stay on top of the work that he has done. I have an assemblyman and I now do it

with the kind of activities that he has been engaged in. He is extremely well. In our city and state affairs. And so they they pay attention. We have problems. And I try to go to the source that will help us with that sources the mayor and I'll knock on the mayor's door. The problem is one involving some state action to the governor or the controller or whatever the official would be. I was thinking of having. And my council money district somewhere in this city that allows councilman November Sam Wright was elected to represent Brownsville in the city council. Adding further to his control over Brownsville life right now directly controls the local legal services corporation the Democratic district leadership the community planning board the assembly seat and the anti-poverty community

corporation. But at the center of Sam Wright's power base and the criticism of right has been his control of the community school board. Wright's opponents charge that Wright has used a school board position to enrich his friends and his political club. You know where we want to go. Now. We have a brief was put together by community groups and must be contained. Corruption. Piola this big numbers might be to hit for million dollars I think would be great. The atmosphere now this could do to a body. Look at these things right now. Among the charges are that officers and contributors write political club purchased some of these buildings at very low prices only weeks before several community boards

which right controls approved long term leases and substantial improvements in these buildings. It is also charged that this man Elmer Hamilton a longtime associate of rights and a political club member was employed by a firm doing business with the school board when Hamilton was a member of the board. And we have a sworn statement from an employee of the firm charging that she attended a meeting at which Wright was present in which Hamilton's employment was discussed. Though the city board of education ultimately refused to pay much of the firm's bills no charges of violations of the conflict of interest laws were ever brought against either right or Hamilton. Finally the bookkeeper for the school board's former security guard firm charges and this sworn statement that two old personal friends have rights Lambert Biskup and Leslie Millington gained control of the company by harassing the company's president James Pickett. She also charges that she believed that Sam Wright was aware of

the tactics and that she was ordered to fill out false time sheets attesting to sites not in fact really guarded. This lady refused to appear on the show for fear that she would lose her city job rights control of the school board is under serious challenge from rights opponents at this meeting. The community brought them in to let us know the right. Crap and they had to pay 20 $80000 a year to come out to and she had to lead him on. Thank you Mr. Hamilton. And as I say my my fellow board members whom I'm about to leave right selection to the city council in November forced him to resign his seat on the school board. At this meeting he's trying to install his own secretary. Mrs. Gadsden in his place on the board. There is strong opposition to this and it's not clear that Wright has the necessary five votes on the board.

Suddenly a fight broke out. That's a pattern that Mr. Wright has used ever since 1970. He has one of his henchmen or several of them start a fight or some sort of confusion in your audience and provoke them. I said it was set up purposely to cause the confusion at the meeting and was right before the critical vote on the member to fill in the vacancy and. If you think you're confused by what was going on at this meeting so were the people who were in attendance. Because when it is done by

three three and one didn't mean. That I didn't say it was set up by me and the way around in the room and I don't feel that the it should have been telling me the right going out with dignity should have met to like this and people came with sticks and they had you had to fall in the audience. Who is that with the sticks in their hands. I don't know where you get that. You know they all look alike in the side but they all came in well armed. And with a healthy body documentary. That paid employees. These poor people standing around the room. What do you mean by saying that people standing around the room I don't like the idea of it. To me it was like they was ready for anything that happens.

If the parents are behind you then why haven't you been able to win these elections wanting to get the minority minority membership on board is. The proof of the him tonight on this election and trying to get someone to join them and not sign that bill or the neutral person that would come and see things our way we not do that. We're not going all the time. I don't think we can move on from all the things we've got in the papers. We to be right in some way. What we're doing what we're saying why haven't you been able to win elections that's the real test of whether you've got support in the community. Well in an election you know we can we actually missed the chance to petition the school board. We haven't challenged the court we all were knocked off and it costs money to get back on the ballot doing election time. Was it right. Because if he wins you can stand up once in your in. I can beat the system down the court. You know when they do it before the election. They will say of him in the courts. Also with TPM. You think you got

unfair rulings in the court. A lot of time a whole lot of time and see a ruling. In April of 1973. Maurice Reid went into court to challenge the legality of Sam Wright's nominating petitions for the local school board elections. When we arrived at the court when the case was called The first thing that I miss the rights attorney Joseph Slaven who is also the attorney for the Kings County Democratic machine asked Judge Giovanni was to produce the original copy of the show cause order. Once this document was produced he claimed that there was a difference in service as required by the orders and that we had not complied because we in fact had to serve Mr. Right personally. So what was the effect of the change if it were the fact of the change or is that our case was dismissed because of an invalid order and we could not actually take Mr. Hyde to court to show that his actions were invalid. What do you think really happened. I think really what happened is that either the slave and the right and the clerk or someone else in court

got together in collusion and changed the show cause order after they conform to God before did you challenge we didn't challenge it because of the amount of money that would have been required to get a transcript or to take it to the Court of Appeals. And we just didn't have the money. But while raising money has been a real problem for same rights opponents it has not been difficult for Sam right prior to rights election to the community school board in 1970. School employees contributed approximately $900 to Wright's political club three months after Wright's election contributions from local employees to the club climbed to three thousand five hundred dollars and contributions for the next 14 month period were fifty eight hundred dollars for a total of more than nine thousand one hundred dollars from school board employees over two years. You'll note that Prakriti warm contributions made are done through ticket raffle and other things that people do voluntarily on their own. You just can't ask people to assume a large burden

such as but in a low economic area they don't have the money. I was green given a job through Sam Wright's intervention in April of 1971 charges that a contribution to the political club was expected of her in return. But that was my first Bathily with them and I was them how take it out in the general as a member of the club anybody who is employed in work you know going to take me with journal and I was told that if he laid out I mean we were told he had to get to that with making a fine. Do you remember who told you this guy. And did you say what if I don't want to contribute. No. Why everybody who wrote to us who have a job or get a job in. Let's take it out. Did you ever see a record that listed contributions and the jobs that people held based on how much they had in the black.

So you saw what the what was in the record which is people saying the amount of money made per year and the amount of money for people to Genel and kept my name is not me. They showed you that I feel that you made a lot of these charges back in 1971 and 72 is that correct. Right. It happened in 1972 with those charges about forcing people to join the club. No that was brought to the chance that indeed did this to get you know by an act of at all. Question You you filed an affidavit and they were never questioned never never. On May 23rd 1971 school chancellor Scribner directed the Bureau of water to investigate these charges. But 10 days ago Henry Newman the director of the bureau board told me that he never carried out such an order that he had refused to do so because he felt it was inappropriate and none of the people who filled out affidavits were named and the charges made in 1971 in early 72 were never questioned by law enforcement officials through the end of the 1973 school year.

Fifty first state has learned that both Brooklyn district attorney Eugene gold and state special prosecutor Maurice Jari just four opened investigations into certain of these charges. This smile may soon change to a frown. We wanted to have Councilman right here this evening to look at the film that you've just seen. We invited him in but he said he couldn't come. The invitation is still open and we hope to have him here soon. Tomorrow night target Brooklyn takes a look at electoral challenges in congressional districts that are key power centers for the Brooklyn organization. You're the final judge of course of how well a politician serves the people or fails to serve them. If you live in Brooklyn and if there's something about a politician that doesn't seem quite right or quite fair then we'd like to hear about it. You can let us know by calling this number. The number is 2 6 2 6 6 2 9 2 6 2 6 6 2. Or you can write to us

at this address. Target Brooklyn w any t 13 for you all for West Fifty eighth Street New York 1 0 0 0 1 9 Your name of course will be kept in confidence. In the. US

and. The stock market is supposed to reflect broader economic developments. Surprisingly enough today it did just that. Fifty first state economics analyst Gordon Weil has a report crisis on the New York Stock Exchange zoomed upward today an eighth greatest advance since 1929. In part this price performance was due to word that President Nixon would play a larger personal role to end the Arab oil boycott. Even more important were indications that there's going to be lots of dollars around and those dollars that a new high in exchange for other currencies today. The reason the United States with its own oil reserves is less dependent on high priced Arab oil than other countries are at the same time money is becoming easier and interest rates are beginning to fall. That's because the Federal Reserve Board in Washington which has a variety of tools to ease or tighten money has decided to act now to

cushion this year's expected recession. Easier money means more jobs and economic growth. This action contradicts the theory that inflation resulting from higher oil prices should be met by a tight fisted policy. The Fed doesn't usually divulge its plans but 50 first date asked Andrew Brimmer a member of the Federal Reserve Board what the Fed has done and what it will do. He had been following a policy of substantial restraint. A policy designed to help check inflation and an economy which was operating pretty close to capacity. That was before the offshore. As the economy was showing evidence of slowing down of course that unfolded the appropriate posture for monetary policy is to adjust to that. We've always done that during a period of recession as an easy money policy to not apply. But exactly when and how much and so I wouldn't be able to say I would say we are not asleep the chances are we'll be able to take appropriate steps

consistent with whatever the pace of economic activity happens to be. We can't wait of course until we can see exactly what's happening to the economy. We have to operate in advance because of the legs in monetary policy. What we do today will be effective next week to take several months out. We try to keep those lives in mind and of course they are we try to act accordingly. But I won't be able to tell you precisely what you would do. There's been lots of talk about recession and inflation. In 1974 we're going to have both or either what is your outlook are clear or there'll be a serious problem of inflation. And I would have said that independently of the difficulties being posed by the shortage of petroleum. I would have also expected a slowdown in the economy in 1974 aside from the question of petroleum and the supply would be Apple or not. Most people think we're not be ample. Now the combination of

those two will lead to further economic growth. That is output correct if a price changes in 1972. Now whether you call that a recession or not depends on whether you go below zero rate of growth or just above it as far as I'm concerned the difference is very great. I would expect very little real growth in 1974. Have the oil situation remains as it is. And even if we get a substantial improvement in the oil situation I think it would be well to mid year before we start to see a real pickup is known as a tight money man but his pessimism about the economy in 1974 makes him sing a new easy money song. It's called I'm beginning to see the light. Memory of a strike by New York City's firemen is now a dying ember especially

to some of the firemen. Lisa Feiner reports the illegal one day fireman strike occurred last election day. That was the one where the union's president Richard Zeny told his men they had voted for a strike when they actually hadn't. You may recall some of the outrage expressed by government officials at that time. How a fireman could refuse to respond to an alarm is beyond my comprehension. There will be instant disciplinary action to the limit. Under the law. The union is on a cruel and reckless course. No labor dispute is worth the risk of human life. Not one fireman who took part in the strike well get off the hook. A two day fine would be no deterrent at all. A second strike is always easier than the first. I'm not looking for retribution. Only a strong deterrent.

Today fire commissioner O'Hagan had this to say. I am dropping all plans for departmental charges for neglect of duty for all members who participated in the strike because I feel this would have a long term disruptive effect on the department. Due. To freezing rain and sleet. Tonight. Cumulation to two inches. Tonight in the upper 20s. Cloudy. Riding. High. In the upper 30s. You do. As mayor bean completes his third day in office. Many appointments have yet to be made.

These include the heads of such vital super agencies as the Human Resources Agency environmental protection economic development fifty first state report on how Levinsohn has been reviewing the appointments that Mr Bean has made. How many seem to be awfully slow in making these appointments. Well he's both. He's been slow and careful slow because interestingly many of the appointments potential appointments are being cleared with interest groups either associated with the department. That the point he is going to work with interest groups associated with the man the potential appointment how has it been careful enough. He's run into some trouble with the side least two appointees or one potential appointee and one appointee the deputy mayor spot Mr. Terry first ran into trouble Mr. Dinkins ran into trouble how has he been careful enough. Well he's certainly going to be very careful from here on. I spoke to one appointee today who is going through the Department of investigations questionnaire for pages and the department is asking for all kinds of personal financial information. You point he was overwhelmed at the information it would have to be

produced. So I think from here on in Mr. B-M and of the front investigations will be especially careful. I wondered if you could compare that being appointees with the Linzey appointees of the Lindzi holdovers and those who are remaining and those who have left. Well there are some that are interesting comparisons and some of the early key appointments for instance First Deputy Mayor James Cavanaugh from Mr. Bean and John lezzies First Deputy Mayor Bob Price. Mr. Cavanaugh being a career civil service man and Bob Price being a political political man and the guy who ran the mayor's campaign in 1965 in housing the housing development administration Roger star who comes from a good government group who's been in New York housing for years versus John Lindsey's first housing development administrator Jason Nathan who was from Philadelphia and the police department. Michael Codd is a man you know who is associated with the establishment in the New York City Police Department although he is well regarded John Lindsey's first

police commissioner. He inherited Vinson Broderick who was a holdover Wagoner man. But when the civilian review board issue came up a Howard Levy was brought in for Philadelphia. Well how is it fair to say on the basis of the bombings that he has made that Mr. beam's seems to be going for local people for experienced people rather than for the outside and the glamorous time. And I think it's certainly a fair comment. I think John Lindsay was looking for people who were new faces young out of towners in many instances. A beam seems to be relying on people who have worked in New York and who have a successful track record in New York. How come no reformers in the being the administration so far and very few. My argument is well we've seen or reformed Democrats who have been appointed to key positions so far we see no members of the Liberal Party. And this is really the first time in 16 years that the Liberal Party hasn't been represented in city hall. We have seen members of minority groups and I think I think that minority groups are doing very well so far with Mr. this research with respect to appointments. We have a black deputy

mayor and I think that's significant. We have assistance to the mayor. We have two Puerto Rican assistance to the mayor and there are some Italians. People have Italian-American origins who are who are already been appointed. So I think we're seeing ethnic input into mayor beam's appointments. Well how would you assess the appointment so far overall how do they look to you. Well it's interesting and I think perhaps this has been the biggest surprise with Mr. Beam so far. There is a feeling around the city from the people I talked to that many of his appointments you know have been very good. And I think the general caliber of appointments has been of a higher caliber than many people expected from Mr. Bean. I think that's the big surprise. I think you I think we can say that Mr. B-M has been a cautious man and the people have appointed have been a little up in years perhaps across the board but they've been experienced people when they have been local people. Right. Hair used to mean an intellectual artist musician author today

longhairs are everywhere. Some were even working on the railroad or they used to conductors. Al Hoffman and Frederick Amerada of the long island railroad have been suspended in a dispute over their long locks. What's wrong with long hair on the railroad. Not a thing as far as we're concerned. Long had we been wearing I had this fashion for the past five years and then the rabbit got it into their head that they wanted to discriminate against long hair. Well what why why did they want to discriminate against long hair. Why are you mad. I believe there's a generation gap on the river and the river is busy trying to find the men rather than stick to the joys of running the river and let us run the trains the way we're supposed to be they're too busy worrying about if we've got haircuts and doing the ice storm they were busy knocking on doors and windows and telling all the guys that were muzzleloading with thirty five thousand passengers to get the heck out of the stuff. Fred you had a subterfuge I believe that you use at one point in order to get around the long hair rule. What was it.

Well I use the shorthand we got one time and then I got tired of wearing a short head way so I went out and bought an afro. What's that got to do with it. As I felt with this I still had long hair and I was beating them. But it got kind of hot this summer time. Is that illegal now this is illegal on the railroad even the short way because suppose you were suppose you were a black with Afro hair would that be illegal that they're not bothering in any of the brothers on the railroad. But if you wear a wig it's tough luck right. What's wrong with long hair I mean what reason do they give for you not being able to wear long out of the rear. I guess the reason that it's it's a systemically unpleasant to them the possibility of it blowing in one's eyes and covering one's ears so they can have properly you me so you can't hear properly. Definitely when you hear all right I seem to be responding to your questions like Where does your head blow in your eyes. I wear a hat when I'm on duty so the possibility of the hair blowing in my eyes while I have the hat on is quite remote. Well isn't there. I could test tomorrow on this issue tomorrow morning at 9:00 a.m. The Long Island where it has to show cause before I

judge my Constantino in the Brooklyn eastern district court to show cause why we can't have our long hair. Fred are you going to be there. Yes I will be there. Let me ask you could I qualify for a job on the Long Island Railroad with my hair so that you get a haircut. Thank you very much. Few American clergymen have been embroiled in quite so much political controversy as Father Daniel J. Barragan for burning the Selective Service records as a protest against the Vietnam War he spent two years in jail. Now Father Barragan a Jesuit says that if he were an Israeli he would be in resistance against that state. In his words Israel has become a nightmare. Military Industrial Complex. Father Barragan is with us tonight along with Professor Hans J. Morgenthal. Dr. Morgenthal an author and professor at the City University Graduate Center has a

different view of Israel. But first father Barragan let's establish what exactly is your view of Israel. Do you really consider it a nightmare. Military Industrial Complex. I'd like to step back a bit. I think that one reason that speech is famous or infamous as it may be aroused so much controversy and so much really deep proposition was that I was trying to raise some questions which I think in the American community are forbidden questions. And. Among those questions I think are the American experience I would put first the uses and misuses of violence against them. And then I had to be willing to swallow hard and take on some of the tremendous difficulties of talking about Israel knowing as I did the bloody history of the Jewish people. And the bloody history of the state of Israel and so on. And knowing the profound feeling of the American Jewish community with regard to Israel. So

I guess I want to stress at the very beginning I didn't do this thing lightly and I tried my best to raise questions that would help both the Jewish and the Jewish community in what I considered was a desperate breach of our country and of Israel to follow Bergen you not only raised some questions. But you made some statements you know you called Israel. You call it an imperial nation and dark on an imperial adventure. Right. Do you still stick by that statement. In context yes. But you see it is one thing to raise certain questions in psy ops talk especially you see a lot of ethical questions. And describe something adults to raise these same questions in see concrete context of a particular political and military situation right. You start from the assumption Ricci to the Christian tradition. She is so the world evil

so that violence is evil. But you then seek out each particular evil that evil that you see in this world. And it created. These evil I think lies and injustice and ethic deficiency. Because if you read just in the sense of I suspect if you are raising that question as I think it ought to be raised in justice you will have to come pay to see evil you see this. With evil you see and it's real. Well particularly I don't yes. And then I arrive at a conclusion which your church fathers call to conclusion about what you are doing is you cause you know a girl which is full of evil which

seems since Adam and Eve has been evil. You focus upon one little spot. And you forget about Also your last. And this I think is is a dangerous argument to make. The second point is that you haven't got your facts right. You you're making statements which demonstrably are not correct to call it is a monster's military machine or whatever it is is I think an injustice and in court like empirically because see as us. Of the Old Testament is certainly very much alive in this trial. If you look at the social and economic innovations in the form of sick people would say not hard and so forth. You see

say that came to. Realize at least to of Trustees you know which is by its very nature evil by a you or your IQ I find intellectually interesting even so I disagreed with it. Are you are you are from you. Vietnam experience from my Vietnam experience we as evolove violence was virtually unmitigated violence in human history has a certain justification. Sometimes it does involve a justification. Sometimes it is a valid one. It is the senselessness of the art of Vietnam which has outraged you. It has outraged outrage. Professor worthlessly if father wants to respond to that.

Well I would like to say a few things briefly about each point. These are also very serious points with me I assure you. First of all it seems to me that one can't really have a grab bag of causes. There are causes which are related to one's immediate life and their causes which are out there in the great world and one obviously can't take up everything. The question visceral for me was a very important one because of my own background because of my own training because of my own meditation my own knowledge of the Old Testament and because in my active life as a priest I had been close extremely close to the intellectual and religious community of Jews in America. And politically speaking if I meet again make one or two sentences I felt that it was not in the best interests of Israel to pursue this Nixonian ethos this Nixonian line in the world and to join with other countries as a kind of ring of control dreamed up by Kissinger and Nixon in the world. So I think on that point it was

time for me to speak about Israel. If I see something about violence my experience and yours in the 60s leads me to believe that if we are to are. As Americans on any side in our critique of other countries it should be in the direction of being skeptical and suspicious about the claims of violence because we have seen what violence does. I do not see any essential difference between the death of a Vietnamese and the death of an Israeli. I think that slaughter is indivisible in the Torah and I think that as far as I'm concerned I am quite justified in saying stop here. I just don't see you. You don't deny. You see Cousin Tick-Tock and of trust war. I didn't entirely entirely. Indeed the Vatican Council has denied it and returned us to the gospel of nonviolence of absolute nonviolent. For instance Pope John before his death said that there is no

circumstance in modern life in which work can be reached that it can be looked upon as a just resolution of human conflict. Most. Let's start there about then. I mean I take your word for it that the pope has said this. But then what would the Pope have counseled a country which is founded by other countries which are sought to destroy it. Are you going to use no violence. Are you going to sit. Are you going to draw into 6000000 dad and say Is that too much mirrored in that for your disposal. I'll deal with this problem practically. I think put yourself in the position I'm trying to get seems to me that if anything since 67 is clear. It is that the continuation of the death scheme is useless except to multiply the dead on both sides. And that for those who are not immediately involved our best service is to come. So a third way. And to

get some sort of mitigation in some sort of accommodation on both sides. The question is of course what is the third way. Then you have the wrong side. It's an unfair nation which refuses to die. And on the other hand a large mass of people who are under the guise of trustees the donation of the rights of Palestinians is to destroy. You come to Israel. I'm sure that resolution. So from what I think it takes out a great number of quotations in recent weeks and I wouldn't I wouldn't swear that it is 100 percent as I said little doubt. This is what the leaders of our world have in mind. It takes your statement which the Egyptian foreign minister made the

initiation of the Peace Conference. That itself doesn't belong in the Middle East. Where is it going to go. You see this is the question which led to the creation of Israel after the Second World War. Right. And so so six million souls who happened to survive this slaughter that we packed into ships which went from port to port and nobody wanted give human in or immigrated into Palestine because that was the only place you could go. And they cite from the and model and enormously strong allegiance of the Jewish People to them and to see holy land is the promised land. I wondered if I could ask father a question here. This occurred to some of us the Jewish anti-war movement and the Jewish members of this movement were among

your strongest allies when you were protesting the Vietnam War. Do you understand how some of them can feel could feel now that you have turned against them and you understand all kinds of feelings. Because I've shared them you know to a degree and certainly in the 60s I had some very harsh things to what it was to be a minority and to be hunted and to be in jail and to be in court. So altogether apart from that experience my feeling is though that I should not be the issue. You see it was not the point of helping me as though I were somebody off on a drug trip or somebody in need of mental care. I was trying to put my life somewhere. And if the Jewish community among other communities joined me that was in an effort to humanize themselves as well. No. I reject the idea that he has to go from protest against the Vietnam War to a kind of automatic acceptance of other points of view. No one has

to be if one was against the war in Vietnam how pro-abortion and pro Israel and pro this and so on. I don't think it's that easy. You know I really think I'm really trying to invite the Jewish community to a deeper integration of consciousness as well as my own community as well as all mankind. Professor Morgenthal I believe you fled Nazi Germany as well. I didn't really fully anticipate that left year before Hitler came to power so you know something about the arrogance of power and the violence that followed. But you see we are talking about violence as some kind of obstruction. So that kind of violence has. Got to slaughter his son which is violence. And you see you made a point which I think is quite see again is an historic site. Isn't this right in a sense crazy prophetic location. But it's up

within a more or less the Q A political and military framework and the old testament is full of big feedlots and small pipes and other people around. So the idea is that all of a sudden you can you for our people to be the first to establish the kingdom of God without violence is a council for suicide. It is impractical it is. I find it hard to say. I don't want to use any harsh words that were founded on a few of your intellectual acumen. If your political acumen. Well I might respond that the present course which I presume you're advocating is equally suicidal and perhaps the speaking even more so. I don't see how

a long endless series of arm clashes between these two people is going to guarantee life borders well-being for any so. Obviously some I am making on both sides to say this is what I'm saying and do our talk is taking care of its military and political security. It's quite another side where we're naked standing still in Geneva in military in political terms. It would be lost. It might be lost anyhow but certainly it has to see any other country and sees even the world of violence has to. It's sad that if we use those instruments of violence which it seems necessary to defend itself. Well I think that probably isn't the case the United States any country is a poor judge in its own case and the necessity of outside critique of our times of conflict is

desperately necessary. No one is asking Israel to go naked before some sort of a conference table. I am really seeking for a mitigation of violence on both sides. By the understanding maybe within Israel that the friends around the world who believe that there are other ways than killing and thereby reinforcing the life giving energies of Israel. So I don't believe that Dianne speaks for the for the tradition of Israel. That's my trouble. Right. But you see what you are seeing now. You did not say that the article could well I see it now. I mean I think you could have avoided a lot of misunderstanding and sentiment if you had said but it's just what you have just said. There is another point just coming back to the problem of evil which is evil in this world is the rest of the world. But look I'd see even the

Arabs have upset to see Jews before 67 when Troughton occupied East Jerusalem synagogues were destroyed. I'm going to come for a state like an ancient cemetery Jewish cemetery cemeteries ready the start. The stones were used for paving folks. We have asked the ethicists to tell us which Bishop protested against this which Protestant minister found face in. But when you see shoes as you say let's I do defend some settlers. This is an outrage. You see there is an element of you may see Mongiardo anti-Semitism in which it is not seen to be true that shoe is pointing to that. But we hold people

composed of Jews who pointed that as a kind of an out cause the kind of an outlaw who does terrible things which no the nation is doing. So this is a fantasy as anti-semitism is of course based upon a certain sort of religious fantasy. Professor Morgenthau are you accusing father bragging of making anti-Semitic. I'm not accusing him of anything. I tried to understand him and I tried to express my understanding of the consequences of his thought. I felt Bergh and you have been accused by some of us of making anti-Semitic statements based on these statements yesterday concerning Israel. Do you consider yourself anti-Semitic or not. No. I tried to see at the cathedral a week ago there in St. John the Divine that I was about as anti-Semitic as I am anti-Catholic. This is a very cruel kind of epithet to have heard that one probably the worst that could be heard it and wounding but one of the things you did I know I just I just want to go with thought the professor brought up here

it seems to me that his remarks about the horrors perpetrated on Israelis by the Arabs. He's saying as we know in other contexts that war is man at his very worst at his most horrifying most brutal and that this will always be true. And as technology grants us more ways of doing this we'll do this more horribly. And even before. That to enter into that situation of 50 percent 50 percent or belligerent here and there doesn't really grant this much light because we're required to get beyond that. And required to see how else can we act especially in circumstances of great conflict. And I think that that's our office and this is one of the things that you didn't say though. Father Barry Now as you've been quoted as having said having accused Israelis effect of adopting the racist ideology of the Nazis against the against the Arabs the word Nazi was never used. But what exactly did you say. I can't

think of the exact quote. But as in all kinds of war propaganda this is nothing you know. There were words used by Israelis about Arabs that are racist. I don't I don't find anything spectacular in that. That's a stereotype of war in which the first casualty is the truth but the other side. Well you did accuse the Israelis of racist ideology of racist language against their. Do you think he went too far or were too harsh. That yes you ask what your questions were good. Let me ask you another question if you had to say if you had to make such speech again would you make it the way you have for me today. Well if you learn something from the experience well I've learned a great deal not only about myself but about community and specifically the American Jewish community. And that has me being I think very sober but the question. I would think that I have nothing. I would to think about that I would think of nothing essentially that I

would want to retract. I would want to read something which I think we've gotten to very briefly. I don't think I conveyed my sense of love for Israel and for the Jewish people which is very deep for me. I said at one point that this was an act of love but it was outrage love to develop that point. And you brought up earlier I think I should have spoken more about my my admiration for the social achievements and the agricultural industrial achievements of Israel especially in those early years when it was so difficult and you might have said some young Palestinians I say who have been kept after officially in the status of trees for political reasons. Imagine for a moment that she vestryman had to flee for his life and she's eased into Cavil's and said we don't care. We wait until she to

light of his story. Let's see United Nations gives them a subsistence. They would have gone on for 25 years. What we have set of the ethics of the West German government this is what the governments have done swimming in money having enormous territories and they've done it on purpose to have a dock with which to stop its growth. I think again you simplify question that that has implications for Israel as well. But you mentioned the reaction that you've got to the speech you've made and that it has a reaction to. You seem to be saying the reaction has taught you something. What has been the reaction and what has it taught you. You know in my worst moments I think that a great deal of this writing at all has to do with an effort to warn and others to keep quiet and keep off the subject. On the other hand I don't want to discount the fact that with more or less deliberation I stepped

in where it was a way for us to stop when it was forbidden. I took a chance you know. But on the other hand I don't want to see that. I think it's a rational response for people. To say that this man is functioning suddenly out of hatred or rationality or anti-Semitism or insanity. I think the supposition of someone about someone like myself would be wrong. He certainly does. And he probably was wrong on a lot of points but maybe he's worth listening to. What do you think. Well I would fully agree with the last sentence. I mean my personal respect and affection for a father has not diminished at all. Perhaps my as an office political system has been somewhat impaired. Fine. Thank you very much I appreciate you both being here this evening discussing this very important issue with us tonight. It's people like you we read

the 50 states. And Criminal Court Judge Bruce Wright believes that the criminal justice system discriminates against poor blacks and Hispanics. He sets low bail or no bail. And many many minority members are accused of crimes. Robert McKinnon is president of the Patrolmen's Benevolent Association. He believes that rights should be in his words drummed off the bench. These two men met for the first time last night in this studio on the set and this is what they had to say as a parole violator and he was accused of murder. You let him back out on the street with it. He's presumed guilty and evidence against that he was a parole violation and he was accused of killing another person and you let him back out on the street to kill somebody. He was accused of participating in a fistfight something I dare say you've done in your day but I've never killed the person. You're lucky you might not under the circumstances. And you told you all the facts so I don't know. I don't know the facts and I'm

not going. All I know is that the man was brought back into court. And you let him go and he was a parole. Let me get my a little instruction on what bail is for the Eighth Amendment says it shall not be excessive. Poor people a dollar can be excessive. If a man is known in the community you know where he lives and that's certainly the case with this man that I wrote they knew where he lived. Mechanicsville they knew his roots were in Brooklyn and he was a parole violation and they arrested that is perfectly you no hold on. It certainly was they had to go up and bring him. There was no hold on him that was presented to me. Money bail money bail. That's the issue that divides right and McKiernan and it is one that is bound to receive increasing attention. A prestigious state study commissioned last year the Dominic commission recommended the total elimination of bail. It said that bail whether in the form of cash or bail bond should be abolished. The state legislature however failed to enact this recommendation. It also failed to enact a proposed speedy trial rule that would have guaranteed accused citizens

a trial within a specified time following their arrest. The issue of money bail will provide citizens some with right considering it unconstitutionally discriminatory. Others with McKiernan considered it an essential protection for society that should be less division on the need for speedy trials. Justice delayed is often justice denied and neither the guilty or innocent should languish in jail without being able to make bail. Awaiting trial speedy trials. Isn't this something on which both right and McCarren can agree. Isn't this a need on which they can agree. Good night. Sometimes when I'm. All alone. Just like I try to get out of. The. Love you gave me. Keeps me. On.

My first. And. My future. My main. Fine. And. I have on. When. You. Want. To. Go. Home I'm going to. Give me. One man. Man I'm talking. To. You.

I have. No money. I am on the. Bed I love God. Now I'm. Way. Down. That bad day. Bad night