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[Music] In the year 711 an army of North Africans defeated the army of Spain and took over the capital city of Toledo. These Moors, as the Spaniards called them, populated and controlled much of Spain for close to a thousand years. Hello, I'm Gene Edwards, and tonight on Conversations we welcome Okolo Rashid, who is the director of the International Museum of Muslim Cultures, here to talk about Jackson's newest museum and its premier exhibition: Islamic Moorish Spain. Glad to have you here. Thank you, thank you, I'm very glad to be here. You were born and bred in Mississippi, right? Yes. How did all this happen to you? Well, the exhibit itself? No the, how did, how did you happen to get involved in this? Oh well, um, I'm Muslim. Mhm. And uh, I've been Muslim for the last at least 25 years. And, ah, this exhibit
is something that relates to the history of Muslims. So of course when we, ah, knew that the majesty of Spain was bringing this great exhibit and, uh, we actually learned that, uh, they weren't going to talk about a par- but, you know, a particular part of history that we think is very significant not just for us not just for Muslims but human history. We're talking about, as you said, close to a thousand years that you don't find in many history books. So we felt like it was a story that needed to be told. So we kind of pulled together some expert teams of people and we put the, put together exhibit in just a few short months. Really? It's like that old Mickey Rooney stuff. My dad's got a barn. Let's have a show, right? Right? Exactly. It happened that fast. It really was what, December when you began? December was when we initially started talking about, uh, the possibility of doing it. We developed the
the plan or the idea and we actually launched it. Uh, Officially in January. And you opened... We opened our doors April 15th. Wow. [laughs] Is it communications, arts people are they the ones who have done the exhibition. Exactly. They have, they're, they're experts, in, in, in, our opinion in terms of pulling this together. They did the sports hall of fame, And they did the Jewish experience exhibition that was in here a couple years ago. They have this wonderful sense of history, don't they? Oh, they do, they do, and and telling stories that need to be told. They, it seems as if they search out something that's very significant. They've done a lot of things on the civil rights as I understand it in Mississippi. So when people go to see it it's not so much an exhibition of artifacts and items as... No, not exactly, really what we're focusing on more is content historical documentation and content information that's the
mix, or integrate it with artifacts. Well, let's go back and brush off our history books then, Alright? [laughs] Let's go back to that 700 AD time. It is remarkable to me and and, you know, when we were over there, a little over a year ago the the Spanish people still talk about it and revere that time, because it was a time when when all of those groups of people got along and worked together. Exactly. Kind of unheard of. Exactly. At that time I think those- a part of what we talk about, or basically the whole exhibit, is exploring um uh the significant the the significant cultural as well as technological advancements that were made during that time. And I think and what we think is one of the most significant uh contributions was the cultural of tolerance that the Muslims in fact brought into human civilization as it relates to rulership because prior to that whenever
any conqueror would come into a country they would primarily you know burn the books uh destroy the culture of those people but the Muslims did not do that. In fact, they uh cooperated with the people, allowed the people to continue to practice their faith, to continue to practice their culture. And in that way, they allowed also the people to integrate and to be able to contribute to the betterment of that society, and I think that's what made Islamic Spain such a great uh uh country, and and its accomplishments. Just like in America: it's the diversity. It's, uh you know, having all of these cultures come together and work together you know, for the betterment. And the technical achievements that resulted were just amazing, weren't they? Exactly. Um, it's- I I mean I've learned a lot since I started doing the exhibit uh. I've been uh Muslim of course for over 25 years and we've heard this thing about uh Islam really sparked the renaissance of Europe. But to be quite honest, I didn't know where that happened because, you know, in our history books,
when we talk about world history we usually get just a little bit about other world history, now we were getting other than European history. Now, you know, it's getting better. But, you know, I just learned eh uh uh things uh about uh the kinds of contributions that the Muslims made myself as I was doing the exhibit. Uh Some examples are in philosophy, in mathematics, in science, in architects, in art, in education. We have, you know, information. We have uh displays that really, uh, outline some of those specific, uh, contributions that were made during that period. And there are still in Spain wonderful palaces and places that that are a part of the culture from then. Exactly. In Granada, Spain, uh the great Alhambra Palace City that, uh, we we also acknowledge, uh, Washington Irving, who is a European that actually traveled to Spain, er, in the early
1800s, and he's really acknowledged in the exhibit as being one that, uh, introduced, uh, Islamic Spain to the west uh, by way of Alhambra. He wrote "Tales of the Alhambra." And he would send those stories back. And in addition to that, he was the one that helped to talk to the Spanish government to really restore the Alhambra. So we have him acknowledged there in the museum for having done that and and now as we all know those that know about Spain and and and and the Alhambra in Granada is that now, you know, the Spanish government is making millions of dollars, you know, on the tourism that, you know, that [Right] comes through there [as a result of the] because of the Alhambra. So tell me about people as they were, y- you had this eye-opening experience, you've had this wonderful enlightening and educating experience, tell me about everybody else as they come through. Well, it's quite interesting. Uh my husband told me, "Why don't you jot down some of these things that we're working on developing a tool so we can identify some of the incredible things that people say: "Astonishing' , 'Astounding',
'Excellent', 'Overwhelmed', 'I can't believe it'. These are, I mean, these are some of the comments that people make. 'I have truly been educated', 'I cou- did not believe- I can't believe it', 'I didn't know that', you know, these are some of the things that people are saying. So that makes us feel real good because the whole idea of putting this together was that we had this burning uh passion I guess you might say to bring forth a story that we felt really needed to be told. As I said earlier not because it's something about Muslims and we're Muslims but it's because we see it in the context of human history. You know if we lose some part of that that's significant, then we lose- lose some part of ourselves, something that could possibly advance us. And there's a mystery too for the rest of us to solve. You know we don't understand it. If you didn't understand imagine what we don't understand. That's true, that's true. How do you afford to do this? Well... This has got to be an enormous expensive undertaking.
It is, it is, we were very fortunate in that we had a good supportive you know Islamic community individuals and a few organizations from the Islamic community but also, you know we got great support from the local government, Convention and Visitors Bureau in fact helped to fund this. The State Department of Tourism and the Tribal Band of Choctaw Indians. We've got uh some uh contributions from them, uh The Humanities Council, a number of... A little bit here a little bit there... Yes yes there's ?great exactly? foundation. You're not trying to build a porcelain ruin or restore a gondola so maybe you just need a little bit less. Yeah. But you have wonderful items, wonderful pieces in the exhibition. Tell us about some of the men and how they came to be here. Well what we say to people when they come into the exhibit uh when they come into our welcoming area we say actually the exhibit started before you came in the door because on the ouside, uh the facade of the building we
restored the facade of the building to reflect the Cordoba mosque. It has you know the wonderful architectural designs that one would see the motif that one one would see right now it's in Cordoba Spain some people say Cordoba. But uh that's the original part of the exhibit that you would see as you walk in the building then when you come in the building then on the floor you would see uh imported hand designed Moroccan Tile handmade Moroccan Tile that reflect you know the artistry in architectural design of of that period. Uh so to greet you is a wonderful water fountain of tile a Moroccan handmade tile. Little bitty pieces that- just exquisite water and life you know had a lot of significance at Alhambra Palace that we talked about earlier you know had lots of fountains and water and that was one of the things also that the Muslims contributed in that when they established the culture there
they were able to uh do an advancement on the uh irrigation system such that they were able to bring water down... the viaducts... from the mountain. Exactly, such that uh the homes had wa- running water whereas you know in other parts of Europe you know there was none. Uh but uh that's that's those are some of the things that you see I think some of the most significant p- pieces that people are really astonished with is that we have an 18th century piece that we call a minbar for us. A minbar. Minbar, and what it is a similar to a pulpit I guess and those things that would be in a pulpit this is the place that was in- it's within a mosque we have a- we call it a slice of the Cordoba mosque. And within the mosque in the in the Islamic community when the Muslims come to the mosque they sit on the floor and the only elevated position is the Imam of- the leader of the uh the prayer and the one that does selections. So this nimbar piece is there that
people are you know very amazed by and uh think it's a very beautiful piece. In addition we have this uh 17th century door that uh also opens that uh really as a facade of the mosque within the uh... And we have some eighth century coins that the Muslims introduced to the economy. So those are the best and most talked about pieces. Where did you acquire them? Uh most of those pieces are from Morocco because I uh think that the coins were bought from a antique coin dealership. But the pieces came from Morocco because it was very difficult to get things out of Spain at this point so most of our pieces... Do you find that you're sharing crowds that you're sharing visitors back and forth? Definitely. We have we have this interesting synergy going on now we've got Salvador Dalí at the at the Art museum we've got the Spanish exhibition we've got the the Spaniards in Mississippi over the old capitol Museum, your exhibition and it's all kind of...
It's wonderful, as I go along, yeah you're exactly right and we we you know felt that uh it was important for us to have the exhibit at this time because we felt that the crowds that would be coming from the majesty of Spain in particular and then of course others would uh really spill over into those uh people that we were expecting as well. So they mustn't be surprise these people who come in on buses from or from Toledo Ohio. Exactly, in the middle of Mississippi an Islamic Museum. Really? Yeah we have a lot of that. Yeah. That's great. Your exhibition will will will stay up uh until the end of October. Exactly, however the museum uh is going to be permanent. We are expecting to bring in another exhibit uh once this exhibit closes. And how did you make that happen how does it come to be a permanent museum. Well we just made a decision to do it and we're just working toward that
now. Um you know we we this particular exhibit uh we're looking at the possibilities of maybe making it a traveling exhibit and then we'll bring in another exhibit and continue to bring in the exhibits. But it's just a decision that we made that it was you know very important to continue to have something worthwhile worth raising the money worth making it happen exactly. But you're not going to stop there. As you said that's what's fascinating me because this next exhibition which will follow is, in my mind, ,one of the most incredible stories in all of Mississippi. I think so too. We think so. It's called uh well this is not necessarily the title at this point but we're really we're focusing on a Mississippi story and it's about a a Islamic Prince that was captured and brought here to Mississippi to Natchez Mississippi and enslaved. He had actually been a slave for about 20 years. Uh that just so
happened by the grace of God, I say, that there was a European doctor that came to Natchez. And recognized him. This slave Prince had actually been telling people that he was a prince he was an Islamic prince no matter how no one believed him they laughed at him but they did call him Prince. And when this European saw him he happened to be in the market place selling some, I think he had a little garden, and he was selling some of his wares from the garden. And he of course leapt from his horse, embraced him, the relationship that they had had actually is that when Ibrahima was in Africa he, Ibrahima and his father had saved the life of this doctor when he was in Africa. 20 years before? 20 years before and he just happened to be in Natchez Mississippi. And after that you know encounter then of course there was a whole movement to get him back you know freed and back to Africa. But it actually took 20 more
years. And he finally reached the continent of Africa after 20 years of you know trying to generate the interest in supporting that kind of thing but he did get back to Africa. And what happened to him once he got back to Africa? Well he only lived about a year after he got back to Africa. But uh and I guess a part of the story though is to also connect the Africans to the African continent which you know many people have attempted to do. But we feel that we're going to be in a better position to do that because at the same time that the Renaissance was taking place in Spain, that was also this renaissance that everybody's been talking about in Africa but really hadn't had the kind of background and the research that was needed to actually tell the story. We feel you know that we are in a better position to do that. So that's the exciting part because we'll be able to in fact uh shine a light on the Renaissance, Timbuktu, and the great accomplishments that happened during that time as well because as I said uh during in the time of the Spanish Renaissance
then down in sub-Sahara Africa there was a renaissance going on great technological and cultural advancements were also taking place. And all these things we've just never known about. Never known about, just heard a little bit about you know, no real background. Little bits here, little bits there, buried in our history books. Exactly that A paragraph here and a paragraph there, when you go through some of the palaces in Spain it's amazing that there might be one room, there might be one section there might be one painting one piece left here, there, one one little story left here and there. You know that's an advantage that you have over me because I've never been to Spain yet, but I'm looking to go though. Oh you need to go. Oh I'm looking to go. You need to go and see- see some of these rooms and what they did in the sense that they have the reverence that they really had for the for what was going on during that time and the fact that all those people were able to get along. That's just the most amazing thing to me that all those cultures were able to operate together and think
together and work together and- and- and- and there was not the sense that there was a conquering race Coming in. Right I think- I think that's the most important story for us to tell today. I think that's why it's important for us to be telling the story because of everything that we hear now about Islam and about Muslims. Basically the media gives you such a negative view and most people are telling us that, you know to be quite honest, is that they just thought when they think of Muslims when they think of Islam they think of Iran and they think of people in the streets burning flags and and those kinds of things. And that's that's an image that has a lot to do with politics and that kind of thing. What we want to do is this show you know the history of the people and how it how those people are also connected to other people is just we just one human race that have different things that have happened in our you know our cultural experiences right that really have
impacted all of us and that that's a part of what we want to bring about to have people to see- see each other in that light. Why did they leave? Why did they- what happened at the end of those thousand years? Well there are two things and we have to, as Muslims, we have to be realistic and we have to be honest about. There is a book that we have in the museum and uh uh it's- it's- it's that person by the name of ibn Khaldun, he's a Muslim that lived around the 13th century in Spain and he wrote about the - the rise and fall of civilizations during that time in that time he's very well respected even in the west. But most you know common people don't know about him. But what he talked about is how cultures, uh, rise, and how they become prosperous and successful and what causes the decline. He talks about
corruption you know coming setting in and those kinds of things and that's the reality that the people in Spain, the Muslims,uh they became too wealthy too rich and they do what other people do, they -they are just human beings. So that was- that was one of- the one of the parts of it. The other part is that there was all- always that uh desire from all the groups to you know I guess feel the sense of being conquered even though we said there was a beautiful uh cultural and social environment there. There were- another group that uh still existed of the Christian faith the Catholics in the northern part of Spain that really was not a part of that. And as the other things the social decline began to happen within, you know Islamic Spain itself, then it really allowed an opportunity for that group who had kind of you know been there and had you know certain kinds of antagonistic kinds of relationships going on all along began to come down from the mountain. And this was Queen Isabella
and uh King Costello... I think so. I can't think of the name right now. But anyway so they got... Ferdinand, Ferdinand. Right. OK so they came down and that was a part of uh them you know bringing on this thing called The Inquisition that most of us a-are aware of. Where I mean it was just in- you know just horrific... a horrible time... It was horrific and uh the Muslims and Jews and those Christians that had even though they had not converted to Islam but they had embraced the culture and became a part of that culture. They were either killed or you know ran out of the country and the Muslims and the Jews were in fact ran out or killed. And, uh, by 1492 there were no Muslims left, there were no Jews left and everybody that was there had to confess that they were Christians or else you know they wouldn't be there you know. And so that really kind of ended. So the culture just disappeared.
So it was you know those people and their undoing on both sides. It's interesting to me that the Jewish experience museum here is working so much with all of you to make make everything happen because of what happened. Exactly. All those years ago. Right if you talk with the Jewish community uh they have, I know they have a lot more history than I had, and they talk about you know that era in Spain as being not only the golden age for Muslims but it was also a golden age for Jews as well.Uh we we also feature you know some of those stories like for instance we hear about the renaissance man. We talk about one of the Jewish men or thoughts Maimomedes in our exhibit and talk about the contributions that was made by him doing that time and uh also other you know contribution that were made about all this other than Muslims as well as Christians. Talk to me about this culture here in Mississippi. You you have been of the
Faith for twenty five years, yes twenty five years and how many others and how did it come to be. Well um I'm I'm a convert and I converted 25 years ago. Right now the Islamic community we have a small community probably about 300 400 families uh maybe in the metro Jackson area. The uh the Islamic community really launched the museum called MEST at Mohammad and we have a very diverse community we have probably about 10 to 15 different nationalities. And that's another thing that we cannot feature at the end of the exhibit we have like a kiosk. They can identify about 25 different nationalities just just do a just a brief introduction of who they are what their profession is and and the kinds of things that they you know are doing in this and the community and the society in that kind of thing so that people can get a chance to know Muslims because a lot of times people working uh late children go to school with. They interact with
and they really don't know whether they're Muslims or not they just know that they're a neighbor or someone that they work with. So we want to let them see that. What was it that spoke to you that called you to convert 25 years ago? Hmm. Well I think it was just the whole movement that was involved in the nationalist movement more so than the just the civil rights movement the Human Rights Movement. And I think just my own just research and study. And let's see if I just was to say the one thing that let me to um you know to be calm come Burdett I guess to Islam would be. The the moral base, the moral foundation and the way it's practiced, the practice of it. Even though, you know, I was Christian, but all around me and, just the, uh, have the kind of support system to practice the but the basic values and principles was was lacking in my environment, and I'll just say that. And so and
learning about Islam and, I don't know, some people say it may have been it's like a gene because, uh, you know we're finding now that, and this is the next exhibit we cannot talk about that, many of the slaves that were brought over were Muslims. Prior to that we didn't know, we didn't know this but this is some of the research that's coming out and so there are some people that sayin' it may, it might be a gene or something like there might be something that's, uh, [Host] you are what you were always intended to be. [Speaker] buried within us. Yeah something like that and that's kind of interesting I mean it's an interesting theory but you know [Host] It's fascinating. [Host] So, we have a minute left. Where do you want this museum to be in five years? [Speaker] Well, ah, what we say about the museum is it's more of a research and educational institute than just your basic typical museum. What we would like to see is, ah, to be in a position such that we will have contributed to really integrating information into the curriculum. Ah, and- and getting a lot more
improvements in terms of having a more, a broader world history, ah, content than than what we have now. That's, that's one of our major goals, and to just be a, a better educational institution in terms of just educating the public about, ah, other cultures and appreciating that. [Host] Thank you. [Speaker] Thank you so much for having us. [Host] The uh, the uh, exhibit is Islamic Moorish Spain. And where is your museum? [Speaker] We're located at 117 East Pascagoula Street. We're really right next to the Mississippi Museum of Art and the planetarium. There's a parking lot and we're right next to that. Or, you could say that we're just a couple blocks across the street from the Majesty of Spain. [Host] Pleasure to meet you. Pleasure to meet you too. Thank you but much for having group. [Host] Good luck, Good luck,Thanks. See ya next time.[closing music] [music]
Series
Conversations
Episode
International Museum of Muslim Cultures
Contributing Organization
Mississippi Public Broadcasting (Jackson, Mississippi)
AAPB ID
cpb-aacip/60-70msbm1d
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Description
Episode Description
Host Gene Edwards interviews Okolo Rashid, Director of the International Museum of Muslim Cultures located in Jackson, Mississippi. The museum opened its doors in April of 2001 with a premiere exhibition on Islamic-Moorish Spain. Rashid discusses the founding of the museum and its exhibitions.
Series Description
Conversations is a talk show featuring discussions with public figures in Mississippi.
Broadcast Date
2001-05-23
Genres
Talk Show
Topics
Race and Ethnicity
Media type
Moving Image
Duration
00:28:11
Embed Code
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Credits
Host: Edwards, Gene
Interviewee: Rashid, Okolo
AAPB Contributor Holdings
Mississippi Public Broadcasting
Identifier: MPB 19803 (MPB)
Format: Betacam: SP
Generation: Air version
Duration: 0:27:45
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Citations
Chicago: “Conversations; International Museum of Muslim Cultures,” 2001-05-23, Mississippi Public Broadcasting, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC, accessed March 28, 2024, http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-60-70msbm1d.
MLA: “Conversations; International Museum of Muslim Cultures.” 2001-05-23. Mississippi Public Broadcasting, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Web. March 28, 2024. <http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-60-70msbm1d>.
APA: Conversations; International Museum of Muslim Cultures. Boston, MA: Mississippi Public Broadcasting, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Retrieved from http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-60-70msbm1d