In Black America; John Biggers

Until next time. In Black America, reflections of the Black experience in American society. He collects, he pushes the meaning of the art of what we call the folk artists because out of the folk, out of the folk musician of Beethoven was born. You see what I mean? Out of the folk, we all rise. This is the meaning of ours. This is how it takes place.

Through interested patrons who see the genius, the magnificence, the beauty, and bring this forward. And that's how it has to be done. You see the establishment has never done that. This is done by individuals. We have strong convictions. In 1949, John Bigger has arrived in Houston, Texas to find a department of art at what was then the Texas State University for Negroes. Today known as Texas Southern University. Mr. Bigger has faced formidable obstacles, inadequate facilities and supplies, administrative indifference, and a strong resistance from other blacks, even the students. Today, three decades later, the work of John Biggers is clear in that Texas Southern University has produced some of the world's brightest artists. I'm John Hanson, and this week our focus is on artist educator John Biggers in Black America. It's just a pile of holes in it with its patience, its warmth, its beauty. So what I'm showing

you are symbols for my art. This is where it comes from. It comes right out of the earth. It comes from those stains in which our four parents made life. This is the basis. And this is a bird to me. It's a serpent. It's a foundation. It's the four colors of the world. If you look at the base of it, and it rises just like a flying serpent into the sky, it's what in Mexico is called Kitsum Quattro. It's the flying serpent. This is what the blacksmith represents. It comes with the fire. And with the earth, he hammered this into a new being. He hammered it into a new symbol. And all of our half technology, all of this, it makes the world a modern world a magic. But it grew out of the blacksmith. It grew out of the blacksmith. It grew out of the blackwood to water. It grew out of the

white mold. That transformation. These are the basic symbols for all of our technology. The institution of slavery prevented most black Americans from becoming painters. Skip your more head, generally regarded as a practitioner of history painting and Robin S. Duncanson, who painted landscapes, demonstrated the type of motif chosen by early black artists. Black art remains diverse, however. Some black artists joined the movement towards the left and the art in the 1930s. Others looked to African art for inspiration, while still others explored more deeply native black American scenes. John Biggers did both. Born on April 13, 1924 in Gastonia, North Carolina, he graduated from Pennsylvania State University in 1954 with a doctor's degree in education. In August of 1949, John Biggers accepted the challenge of organizing a art department at Texas Southern University. At Texas Southern University, there was little understanding among the administration and

the faculty as to what an art department should be. The only memory of the TSU art department that first year was Joseph Mack, a classmate of Mr. Biggers at Hampton Institute. The first problem for the new art department was getting students. Young black Texans in the early 1950s had seldom been exposed to art in any form in their segregated public schools. As a matter of what we thought was opportunity, Texas Southern University was a new school, completely new from the ground up. They wanted to develop an art program. This gave a young man an opportunity to develop an art program from the ground. There were no traditions, there were no preliminaries. So I felt that a new school like this gave an opportunity that all the schools were there, traditions and restrictions wouldn't offer. You see, that's why that's really what was the point. What type of tools did you bring in Texas Southern? I started a program. I brought the souls of my feeders. Well, if you read a publication

by Mr. Sam's who was our first sculpture, Scott Paul, Mr. Sam's and I attempted to address these problems in this publication. We faced a situation in which there was no equipment. That was really nothing. There was no buildings. Even though it was a state school at that time, they did not provide the fundamental and basic elements that was needed to carry on an art program. So it was a matter of two people inventing almost building from the ground up without anything. But that was an opportunity. It's time growth has changed. I think we developed a rich program. Were there students interested in art and Texas Southern? Yes. We had ten students and actually you had to have a minimum ten students

to start a class. This was a state requirement. And from the surrounding community, ten students came and we got started. We particularly got you interested in art. Oh, that's a real old story. As a very small child, I had, I was a life of seven children. The two older brothers, a boy could copy and paint works. And they used the Bible and Sunday school tracks and that type of thing to draw and paint the life of Christ and the disciples and that type of thing. And they made these pictures for the community. And I can remember observing these as a very small child. I was my first experience. And then in the public school. And then finally, at Hampton Institute, I had my very first art experience. Now I ran into an imminent calling teacher, Victor Lornfell, who gave us an attitude and a philosophy

about what art was and how we should create out of our experiences. We limiting ourselves and we think about, we think of drawing in painters. We don't think of sculptures, ceramics, needlework. Actually, yeah. And I should have even answered that question another way. My first real experience was actually to help cut out small triangles and squares of quilted material that we saw mothers and aunts and sisters make quilts of. This was bringing together many, many aspects and symbols into a unit. And that's what art is. It's bringing things together, bringing materials together, ideas to create a new entity. This is what art is about. And that really was some of the first experiences. Living in an environment that we characterize as rule, all people who lived that we have to put together things to make life go. This is art. What this represents, that organization

represents life and spirituality. This is art. You see what I mean? The whole community made up of people's great desire to produce a life with some merit, with some spirituality, that quality to sow a bow just the material in the mundane. As we just heard, people would stay singing. This kind of ensemble where different people in the community came together and sang and they really created something like a living cathedral. This is art. And we are all familiar with this in our environments. This is a typical kind of expression, a great beauty and pognancy and portrait when we listened upstairs. And these people bringing the best that they had together to produce an organization and a unit, a concept that was unified to express the group spirit of ascension. You see what I mean? So this was

really the first kind of art experience. In 1960, Black Americans became aware of their heritage. Before that time, was there an appreciation for African art in America? There's always been an appreciation. Let us say in terms of specialized people, but this is also true at American art. This is true at European art. It was thought that art was created for the leisure class. This is a concept that comes down through the ages. You see, now, your African societies were very different. Art was more than just an aesthetic thing there. It was actually a hard-glyphical for information. The African art in an African community represents what a computer represents our society today. It was a storehouse of knowledge and information. And when it was used in different ceremonies, it was used to express different ideas and to give information. You see what I mean? But in American society, where art

came out of a European culture that had come down from the kings and queens and royalty when it reached America, we first thought it was far of the few, the rich, the powerful. So we had to grow and progress toward a common denominator where we want to give all people a higher quality of life and most spirituality. Is there a difference between art, general art, and black art? No, let us say the difference is this. Just as you have Japanese art, you have Mexican art here in Texas. You have African American art here in Texas. Some of the things that you heard of today as has a uniqueness and originality that you wouldn't find in another

trying to acquire. If a Mexican choir or German American choir would come together, they would not make music that way. It has some characteristics that identify ethnically with a culture that is evolved over many, many years that deals with certain peculiarities and that deals with originality in that particular way. So it is the same when we use a term black art, it really isn't the best term that you can use in this choir of people because it is much more complex than that. But in, if you think in terms of color, the characterized art movements and cultures, just as then we would have to call American Indian art red art. You see what I mean, the red man. We are going to say, Oriental art is yellow art because we characterize Oriental as a yellow people. But you see how flimsy it is because.

I mean, nevertheless, these are labels that we live on and live with every day. So the title black art, we can look at it positive, or ordinary, I look at it in a positive manner because as far as ornaments are in there, only three colors anyway, red, black and white. And out of blackness comes the mystery and all colors come out of black, you see what you mean? So it is not a negative phrase for me, you see. And I see not only the universe of characteristics in black art that is in all art, but I see it as the mother that all things have come out of them, just as we have in a cell, biologically speaking, out of that cell, it separates, breaks into two, into four. You see, same thing. How was it particularly important to you for your instructors to be practicing artists? I don't believe a person could teach a medicine if he wasn't a doctor. I don't think a musician

could teach people to play instruments that are dealing with music in any way unless they can play music. I mean, you know, the question, I don't know whether, where your students, are more appreciative of the instructors, since they knew they had someone who was actually practicing their craft. I think so. I think you couldn't appreciate it, if you looked otherwise. Was it difficult in getting your students to appreciate their work, since your problem with an infant program in Texas? Oh, I think the kids are simply waiting for somebody to inspire them no matter where they came from. You know, so it's your they accepted us and that was also, you always have the opposites. You know what I mean? You had a number of people who were enthusiastic and a lot of people who weren't. These we had to try to convince us time when all. Being an educator is art still perceived as one of the major cultural forms in our public schools in your opinion? It's considered a major cultural form. I don't know whether it's how,

it's priorities stacks up at others. That's, I mean, that's the point. I think everybody would recognize that art is a cultural form. It's important for all people, but it's priority. I don't know how it falls and my experiences. With typical traditional educators, it was not on the priorities. Being in Texas Southern for over three decades, are there any commission works in which you produce, that you particularly have a fondness for, bring back fond memories and don't let particular work. Could you tell us about some of them? Yes. I showed you something today, but my very first work in Houston was commissioned by Mrs. Duprie and she had people, the community, to come together, to put up an old folks home to take care of the Egypt. And she asked our department to produce murals and sculptures

for that home and we work with the architects and we design murals for the general workroom in cafeteria where the elders spent most of their waking hours and our sculptor, Mr. Sam, he designed a sculptural fountain to go in the front of the building on the lawns there. And we felt that this was one of the truly greatest contributions we could make by doing this because this would bring a high quality of life to our old people. And we're outstanding artists at that time painted the mural in, oh, I'm sorry, I can't even remember his name, as a public building in Houston. But he spoke very highly of the work that we were doing and it's important because we did this art for people to give a truly qualitative meaning of life to these old people as they said in their life days. So it was very serious with us. So the

very first commission was an important one and maybe my most important one. The second commission was an important one. It was about black women's contribution to American life and we did in the Blue Triangle branch or the YWCA building in Houston. The third full fifth, but I don't know any that I didn't really consider important. Actually, if they weren't important, I couldn't have done them because I had to work out of my gut and spirit. I don't do anything mechanically. You see what I mean? And I think really I think all of them are very important. At least they were the most important thing for me to do at that particular time. Are there any artists today and why you were anticipating on becoming artists that particularly struck your fans of being good artists or something that you would like to try to create similar to theirs? Yes, there were many. Hale Woodruff who was a Atlanta University and started one of the national exhibits for for we kids to participate in. Hale was a great mural painter.

He painted mills of Telodeca University in Alabama that we all knew about. This was an ideal in design also in narration that we all were inspired by. Charles White was a great painter. He painted mills at Hampton Institute in Chicago in the rest. Yeah, we idealized this man. We wanted to be like him. We wanted to be a technician like him. We wanted to try to deal with monumental forms like he did. And yes, and Betty Catlett and I was just here with Johnston. And that was all there were many, many artists. There are hundreds of artists that we emulated that we were at first we didn't know anything about. And as we discovered that these artists were some of the greatest artists that America had produced. Well, we knew that's in the group. Universal art. You see, you asked me a question a few minutes ago. And when David Driscoll

put together 200 years of black art to travel to the several major museums during the by Centennial in 1976. Here America was shocked to know it had such a rich heritage that our Afro-American artists had created monuments to American culture and civilization. These things weren't created by anybody else. But there was another death or another meaning to America and life and civilization. Yeah, there were many, many idols. And I still have many idols that inspire me daily. Do you recall any students that have gone on to gang recognition and achievement nationally and internationally from your studies at Texas something? We have a few. And my attitude is that we only had one. That would be enough. Coming all of us is a well-known painter throughout the United States. And Europe,

he came to attention over two decades ago. And he finished college one of the top galleries in Houston, exhibited his work and has exhibited his work sense. And every exhibit he has, well, that's every year, every two years, he's sailed 99% of his work. Collectors awake to get his work. We've had a whole lot of great students. I can say they name you three dozen. But yes, we produce artists who have received national and national recognition as painters, sculptors, weavers in all of the media. You mentioned that there was a shock in 1976 because a lot of people didn't know about the wealth of talent that black American has. Is that still true today? Our black artists being a fourth of the opportunity to display their works in galleries across the country?

It is gradually taking place. It has not opened up yet. We still don't. You see the marvelous paintings that are here next door there. I doubt very seriously that a great number, great numbers of the public of San Antonio really know these artists. And I just hope that this happens more. And it's a matter of the public becoming aware of originality, the lyrical values of originality that is around them, that they're daily walk over, that they step over. But I think that this is one of the important things about collectors and patrons, like Dr. Pears, that he attempts to bring unknown artists to the public. He collects, he pushes the meaning of the art of what we call the folk artists because out of the folk, out of the folk musician of Beethoven was born. You see what I mean? Out of the folk we all

rise. This is the meaning of the earth, you see. So this is how it takes place. Through interested patrons who see the genius, the magnificence, the beauty and bring this forward. And that's how it has to be done. You see the establishment has never done that. This is done by individual who have strong convictions. So you saying that still is the need for local arts alliances? So yes, of all means. And there's a great necessity that we have of patrons and people who are interested who will bring forth these things. This is how it has to be done. It's always done that way. Is the college education necessary to actually gain or try to find knowledge that you need to know to be an accomplished artist? One of our great artists, I can't say his name, but now wrote a book, so the college could never produce any great artists. And you concur? You concur? To some extent. It's a call to the vision, the vision in the program. If your

administrators are humanists and visionaries, it can happen. If they believe in only certain kinds of academic traditional concepts, no, it won't happen. So it's left to the vision of the people who've run it. Is there a particular style of art in which you enjoyed doing better over others? Well, I have a government style and it's changed a little bit, but basically, it's remained the same. And it falls, oh, you know, some category, let us say of symbolic expressionism. And this is very closely related to African art, deals in value, value relationships rather than a world of visual perspective. It has to do with conceptual art, the whole modern movement of conceptual art has grown out of this. The whole concept of action painting grew out of this. You see, all of the modern movements grew out of this kind of world of value relations. You see, which was in opposition to the visual analysis of space that characterizes European

painting. You see? So I go into that category, even though a lot of my work is very visual. Highest John Bigger State Actif since retiring from education. Look at that life. That's what, you know, if you aren't actually, you're dead. So I had my rebirth today that I retire. No, I'm finally finding the time to do art. I wanted to do this when I finished college. That was impossible. I had to make a living. And so the day since I retired and I do have enough retirement money to give me the necessities, I can paint all day now. That's what I always wanted to do. Are you working on any particular works at the present time? Yeah, I'm working on a lot. You talked about it. I got about 10, 15 paintings going at the same time. Yeah, I worked for 48 hours a day. Sometimes 16 hours in a day. I've got a lot of work to do. Because this is how you want to understand themselves. I just want to know how you understand

the extension of your own creative powers. This is what art is. You see it? And it's transferable. It doesn't necessarily mean you're going to become a great artist. It might mean you become a great mathematician, a great scientist. You see a great actor, a television announcer. You see creativity is creativity. And you need it for all endeavors in life. And to start drawing and painting and doing pottery and sculpture might be the opening. This might get the juices flowing to become something else, but it's fire. Because we want creative people. A world of coaching quality is developed by creative people. And it doesn't matter what field they are. And one of the very last things I've done, this is lithograph, it's black and white, represents number of conspirators. I call this upper room. You might have heard my hated Jackson, somebody else saying the upper room. Three women there, movie. They're carrying a little shack

on their heads, a shotgun house. And in the house we see the table and the bed. Similar to our last supper, our food and nourishment, similar birth and rebirth. On the little porch of a chair, the sacred seats of our father and mother of our ancestors. These are the thrones. These become our thrones that symbolize our beginning. And above that you see the horse you above the window. I mean above the door. Then above the time there's a bell hanging there. And you know one of our songs they sing about the bell and roll. Live a humble. Live a humble bell and roll, you know. So also you see in the tree on the right side pipe, in the tree hanging upside down. Well they were there too. They were symbolic from two parts of you. We put parks and mason jars in the trees. You know, to whizzle with the wind, you keep the birds from picking our apples

and cherries. Also it's the simmer we turn upside down, what's in it runs down. The waters come down to fertilize. So they're symbolic. On the left side we have the Jacob's loud, but a lot of which makes up the month of backbone or the extension of our backbone and the two children climbing that cause all of our parrots, our children grow. They are sinned on our backs. Whatever progress, whatever we do that that we take in terms of progress and change, our children are sinned on us. And that's what we want them to do. So that's what we are saying. And as they hold a bird nest up in their hands, you might think about rockets. You might think about the age of a man moving in space. John Biggers certainly ranks as a major black artist. The fact that he is black is significant, but definitely secondary. John Biggers is unquestionably the most important black artists who have lived in Texas. His national reputation as an artist educator is towering

and his achievements are remarkable. He has written a number of periodicals and books. He has been commissioned to do a number of murals and his work is on exhibition in a number of art galleries around this country. If you have a comment or like to produce a cassette copy of this program, write us, do address this in black America, Longhorn Radio Network, UT Austin, Austin, Texas, 787-12. For in black America's technical producer David Alvarez, I'm John Hanson. Join us next week. You've been listening to in black America, reflections of the black experience in American society. In black America is produced and distributed by the Center for Telecommunication Services at UT Austin and does not necessarily reflect the views of the University of Texas at Austin or the station. This is the Longhorn Radio Network.