In Black America; Ms. Barbara Smith

You From the Longhorn Radio Network, the University of Texas at Austin, this is in Black America. There is a great deal of diversity in our Black community, that there are hard issues like the issue of homosexuality and homophobia, like issues of racism and anti-semitism and

issues of sexism and sexist depression, issues of sexism, that they can look at this book and see that I'm trying to grapple with these hard issues and that yet there is material in the book that they absolutely identify with and realize and recognize. In other words, that even though I may be different from some of the people who read the book, I mean, of course I'm different because I'm only me and nobody is an identical clone of anybody, at least not yet. But the thing is that I would want people to look at the book and say and have that like ring of human recognition, like, oh yeah, it's not right to treat people in such and such a fashion, or I never knew that there was a Black lesbian poet named Pat Parker. He seems like he's a really good writer. Barbara Smith authored the book, The Truth That Never Hurtz, writing on race, gender and freedom, published by Rutgers University Press.

In her book, Smith brings together for the first time more than two decades of literary criticism and political thought regarding gender, race, sexuality, power and social change. As one of the first writers in this country to claim Black feminism for Black women in the early 70s, she has done groundbreaking work in defining a Black women's literary tradition and examining the sexual politics of the lives of Black and other women of color. I'm Johnny Ohanson, Jr. and welcome to another edition of In Black America. On this week's program, Barbara Smith authored the book, The Truth That Never Hurtz, In Black America. Sexuality, unlike race, and unlike gender, pretty much, is mutable or changeable. I mean, if you're born Black, you're going to duck Black, you know what I'm saying? But the thing is, because there is an acknowledgment coming out process, whatever you want to call it, that indeed, one's identity, sexuality identity could change, I think that's threatening

to people. I think there's some people who think that non heterosexual relationships are sinful, are criminal, or are sick. And yet, if you look at the past, going back to antiquity, including antiquity in Africa, you will find evidence of same gender primary relationships. And that doesn't mean, I never debate with anyone right or wrong around sexual orientation because that to me is not the point. Barbara Smith is co-founder and publisher of Kitchen Table, Women of Color Press. She has been a writer in residence and has taught at numerous colleges and universities for more than 25 years. She is the first woman of color, appointed to the Modern Language Association's Commission on the status of women in the profession. Smith is an independent scholar who has played a groundbreaking role in opening up a national culture and political dialogue regarding the intersections of race, class, sexuality,

and gender. In her work as a critic, teacher, activist, lecturer, and publisher, she was among the first to define an African-American women literary tradition and to be a black women's studies and black feminism in this country. Rishie and black America spoke with this innovative author. I have edited major anthologies about black women, and I started doing that. I worked in the late 1970s. I was teaching African-American literature on the college level, and I also was teaching black women writers. I was one of the first people in the country to look at black women's literature. And as I said, I edited a number of collections and anthologies during the late 70s and early 80s, three. And then I also co-authored a book on racism and anti-semitism. Next year, I had two books come out, so one of them is the readers' companion to U.S. women's history, and then there's my own book, The Truth That Never Heard.

So that's, I think, about six now. Okay. You're also the founder of Kitchen Table, Women of Color Press. Uh-huh, that's right. And how did you happen to found middle organization? Well, I was a co-founder, and when we started in 1980, we were the only publisher for Women of Color in the United States. And the way that came about, I was friends with the great poet and visionary Audrey Lorde, and Audrey and I were talking one day on the telephone. I lived in Boston then. This is the late 1980s. Well, actually, I lived in Boston in the 70s, and this is on 1980. He was coming to Boston to do a black women's poetry reading, and we had had various experiences with independent feminist presses and publications, et cetera. And she said, Barbara, we really need to do something about publishing, and they're in hang for Teo from that day until I guess pretty much now, Kitchen Table has been my baby. But still, when you look at those television shows where they interview people and, you

know, the talking head type shows, like Nightline or Meet the Press or whatever, they're almost all white people on those shows, but the thing is that they do interview any black people, they generally are black men, and if they interview any women, they're usually white women. So it's still, you know, even though some things have changed, they're still in need for that effort. Could you give us a little history of the black women's literary tradition? Well, actually, it starts in the 17th century, if you want to be, you know, like strictly chronological. There was a poem that was written by everyone thinks that Philistedly was the first black woman poet. There was actually a woman whose name I believe was Lucy Hammond, and she wrote a poem called Bar's Fight, and that predated Philistedly's work, but of course, she was not the person who wrote that early poem, was not a, you know, literary figure didn't get to do as much work as Philistedly did, but it's a very long and, you know, old tradition. Philistedly, you know, then in the 18th century.

And then trying, you know, we've been trying, I think, ever since. I think that whenever you look at history of black literature, whether it be male or female, you have to look at the situation of slavery, and know, of course, that we were forbidden literacy, the tools of written expression of a tool, you know, not even the end of slavery and of that situation, because when you're denied education, you can't get to a level of ease with the language that you can necessarily become a writer. So we have an incredible literary tradition given that we had to find that, you know, even being prohibited getting the tools, which is the tools of literacy itself. I think that, you know, like beginning of the 1970s, as I said, they have always been black women writing, but black women writers were not seen as a particularly significant group within the black literary tradition, and they were not seen as doing anything that was unique.

And I think that, in the late 60s and early 70s, there was a critical mass of black women in graduate school and different disciplines. And we wanted to study things, you know, it was a time that black studies was being born and women's studies was being born. We wanted to study things about ourselves, you know, and that was regardless of what our field was, if it was sociology, history, anthropology, you know, it didn't make any difference. We liturator, as in my case, we wanted to study things about ourselves. And as I said, you know, there always have been black women writers, some of my favorite black women writers like Zorneal Hurston, Margaret Walker, and Pete Trey, were writing well before, you know, the midpoint of the centray. But I was lucky to meet Alice Walker in the early 70s. She was teaching a course in black women writers, which had to be one of the first ones ever offered in the country. And that was in Boston where I lived, and I got to audit her course. And I swore that the next time I got a teaching job, I would teach what women writers

in one year later, I got a teaching job in Boston, and I've been doing that ever since. But as I said, we built it so to speak from the ground up. And I think it's been really positive for the black community to have these voices be known. Are there any young writers that we should keep eye on or be looking for their particular work? Absolutely. And I probably, that's not a question that I've been asked before. So like I may forget some people that I really want to mention. There's a young man named John Keane, who's a book of stories. I'm actually waiting for my bookstore here to get to me. I've ordered it, and he lives in New York, a very fine writer. John Keane, and as I said, he writes short fiction, and I'm sure it's working on a novel. A black woman poet who I love is named Letta Neely. He lives in Boston, and she has published her own book. I'm sorry I'm not able to supply titles for you.

But you can find them by name that's Letta Neely. And to think of other people who I've read recently, I'm drawing a blank, but they're definitely younger writers who I appreciate greatly. Lisa Moore, who actually is a resident of Boston now because she's studying at the university, is a young black woman publisher. Her press is called Redbone Press, and she's doing a phenomenal job of publishing black women writers. Some of the essays that are included in The Truth Never Hurts was written over 20 years ago. How did you go about the process of compiling and deciding what essays will be included? That was a real process for me. It wasn't just like throw everything I had into the book and say it was a book. I gave it a lot of thought, and one of the things I think that reflects that I gave it a lot of thought is that the book is not arranged in chronological order. It's arranged by sections, you know, different subject matter of how, you know, the book

is arranged. The first section is about literature and history, and then the next section, which is called Between a Rock and a Hard Place, is about the issues that divide people from each other, which include racism, homophobia, and anti-semitism. The third section of the book is called Working for Liberation and Having a Damn Good Time, and that's the section where I write about doing political organizing because I have always been very active politically on a grassroots level. And then the fourth section, which only has one piece in it, is an essay that I wrote specifically for the book. But I looked at all of my work, and I considered carefully, if I wanted it to be in that kind of permanent form of being in the book, there are some things that I did not include that were probably as well written as things that I did, it's just that I didn't think they necessarily needed to be in the book because sometimes I would do assignments and have

done assignments that were kind of a case and also to speak like they were based upon some current events or something like that. But I thought long and hard about what to include, and I did include a couple of book reviews because that's how I got my start as far as publishing my work was concerned. And just trying to figure out how things went together. One of the things that people say about the book who read it is that it doesn't seem like it's a lot of different pieces that were all written at different times, that it really does flow, and that's because I gave it a lot of thought. And some of the essays focus deeply upon racism and how that has affected you in the beginning of your childhood. Why was that important for that particular train of thought to be transmitted? Well, I think in this society, yesterday, of course, was the official celebration of Reverend Martin Luther King Jr.'s birthday. And it interests me as somebody who grew up during the civil rights movement and who actually

saw King on more than one occasion speak in person. So he was very real to me. He's not just somebody on a calendar or on a McDonald's commercial, you know what I'm saying? Right. And as I mentioned that, because in some ways, the way that the holiday is celebrated really does highlight the superficiality with which quite Americans view racial reality in this country. I think that most people who are not people of color in this country don't really understand what racism is and how it works. They also don't understand how deeply and profoundly it impacts our very day-to-day lives. You know, that it's not just a sometimes thing, that we deal with it every single day. And it has grievous and violent impacts on our lives. And sometimes it just is merely annoying. But whether it's annoying or whether it's tragic, like with the lynching of James Bird in Texas last June, whatever that range is, we deal with it every single day.

And I want people to know by reading my book, I want people to know what my relationship was to all that. And I do tell some stories about things that have happened to me personally that were the absolute result of racism, and which could have been more violent than they turned out to be. In your opinion, why is it such a difficult task for this country to come to grips with race relations and why the problem is so difficult to solve or to articulate? Well, I think, I mean, this country is incredibly hypocritical, you know. This country, as I say in one of the essays in the book, which is called The Tip of the Ice Bird, and I talk about, and this is not original with me, I'm just reiterating it, that this country was founded on stolen land and stolen labor. The stolen land was from the indigenous people, because the Europeans came over here and said, I like this, I'm going to keep it, I'm going to take it.

As if, you know, and I don't know if you know that that Gregory used to tell about, that's just like if I see a Cadillac on the street, and he thought I wanted to claim it and say, I like it, it's mine, I'm going to take it, that's what happened, you know, that's what colonization means, and this country was colonized by the European, so stolen land, and then pretty soon they realized that it was so vast, and there was so much to be done, that they wanted to exploit, you know, people's labor, they began with indentured servants, but of course, if the indentured servants were white, they could melt into the dominant population and disappear, and so someone got the incredibly horrific idea of importing us as African slaves, and I think the reason that people in this country, to this day, the last year of the 20th century, the last year of the second millennium, I think to this day, the reason that most people in this country do not want to deal with what we're up against is because it would mean never one, they would have to change, and number two, they would have to

be honest about what the benefits are of living in a white supremacist country, because this is still a white supremacist country. How did you come up with the title, the truth never hurts? It's a truth that never hurts, and I always say that I think that sitting on the porch one night, you know, on summer evening, and Cleveland in the late 1950s or early 1960s, I was listening to the people of my family talk, and someone saying, well, that's the truth that never hurts, it's kind of ironic, and it's a little bit of a joke because the truth can hurt. Sometimes you don't want to hear the truth, you know, but as we know, this truth can set you free, so I was trying to do like a little irony thing, a little, you know, paradox thing, of like, yeah, the truth can be difficult to deal with, but if you can deal with it, it's really going to make your life better. It's not going to hurt ultimately. You have a long list of academic accomplishments and credentials, but you have chosen to remain

an independent scholar and not particularly stay at one academic institution. Is there a method to the maddening? Sometimes I wonder, John, I really do. It's not that I'm a gadfly, you know, it's not that I wanted to go from place to place or anything like that, independent scholar, as I say, I am gainfully unemployed. Riding was always more important to me than anything else, and I wanted to organize my life in such a way that I could get as much riding done as I possibly could, and I knew that a full-time academic career was not going to allow for that. Also I was a publisher, was involved with Kitchen Table, Women of Color Press for 15 years, from 1980 to 1995. So that meant that a full-time academic appointment was not going to work with that responsibility either because running the press was more than a full-time job. So for various reasons, I think that being an independent scholar, the euphemism perhaps,

that has worked for me. It means that every single year I had to try to figure out how am I going to make it this year? What am I going to do to try to earn a living? One of the things that has meant for me, and this is not that great of a sacrifice, is that a lot of material, you know, consumer goods or objects or whatever, I'm not really into that. I'm more into, like, art and ideas and travel, things like that. It's not that I spend no money, it's just that I don't have to have the newest of everything. I would like to have security as I approach elder age, but hopefully, you know, I've been provided for by whatever forces those are that look down on us up until now, and I hope that I'll be able to succeed, you know, in that way in the future. Does black feminism take on a different term than the larger population view feminism? Not absolutely, black feminism, if nothing else, has a strong race analysis, that we understand

that we're not just affected by gender politics or gender oppression, but that we are indeed affected by race and racism, and in fact, I always tell people, the first political situation and issue that I knew about was race and racism, and I still feel racism more strongly in my gut probably than any of the other issues that I deal with, because I feel like, for one thing, we were talking about why is this country so unable to deal with its history of racism. One of the reasons that I think I feel racism so deeply is because it's so embedded in every single institution of the society, for good reasons, which I believe are largely economic reasons. And economic reasons that serve those who are very, you know, privileged to this day. But in any event, as I said, black feminism does look at racism, it looks at class and economic issues, it looks at all those things that affect our lives and our communities.

So as far as I'm concerned, police brutality is a black feminist issue, and quality education for our children is a black feminist issue. Violence against women and stomping it is also a black feminist issue, but it's not as simple, you know, as just getting some good job and some executive suite, you know. We have other things that we have to deal with. You stayed in some of your writings at the Harlem Renaissance. Those writers that were part of that eluxious period in black America were gay and lesbian. Why up until this last half of the 20th century has this information now coming out? Well, I think because of the nature of the closet and of homophobia in the society as a whole, no one was going to say that they were lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgendered before a certain point.

There are some highly unusual people, very brave people who did indeed acknowledge their sexual orientation before the modern lesbian and gay liberation movement. But by and large, it took that movement that began, you know, kind of arbitrarily with the Stonewall Rebellion in 1969 in New York City. That was a confrontation between the New York City police and the patrons of a bar called the Stonewall Inn. They came in to that bar much as they have done in places where black people have assembled to be heads, to disrupt, to tear up the bar. A lot of the patrons, indeed, of the Stonewall Inn were people of color, both black and Latino. And as I said, that's generally considered to be the beginning of the modern lesbian gay liberation movement. It took that for us to begin to look back at other historical periods and to really try to figure out what was going on. But when I write about that in the book about so many of the major figures being lesbian gay or bisexual, that is documented and proved.

You know, it is not a matter of opinion at this point. It's fairly widely known. And it's very interesting to me because the Harlem Renaissance, and me as a person who's a literary scholar, the Harlem Renaissance was our pinnacle. And the thing is that we look at it and say, wow, so what does it mean that so many of the people involved had non-heterosexual, emotional, and sexual connections and lives. You just have to look at it a little bit differently. And I don't think it means anything. I mean, the quality of the writing and the art, that stands, I mean, that's forever. You know, I think it just means that there were some things that were going on socially, you know, within our black communities during that time that we did not know about, but that some of the leading lights, you know, those periods that are artistic and intellectual leading lights, obviously, were exploring. And it wasn't, it's not as cut and dry as we thought, there's a lot to be found out.

Why is homosexuality such a taboo subject or tend to the conversation in the African-American community? Well, that is a really substantial question and we could do another half hour about that. But that's something that I have been concerned about for many years and have written about, have done research on, et cetera. I think people are afraid of difference, just as white people, you know, you know, have issues around people who are not white. I think that people who are heterosexual have issues around people who are not heterosexual. I think there is a fear around sexuality in our society. We have this Puritan heritage, and that Puritan heritage affects those of us who are a black, you know, a black identity who are black, even though we're not puritanism, I mean puritanism is not an African thing, but we've been here for a number of centuries. It affects us and they certainly did give us their religion, you know.

And so that's one aspect of it. I think another aspect of it is that sexuality, unlike race and unlike gender pretty much is mutable or changeable. I mean, if you're born black, you're going to duck black, you know what I'm saying? But the thing is, because there is an acknowledgement coming out process, whatever you want to call it, that indeed, one's identity, sexuality identity could change. I think that's threatening to people. I think there's some people who think that non-heterosexual relationships are sinful or criminal or are sick. And yet, if you look at the path going back to antiquity, including antiquity in Africa, you will find evidence of same gender primary relationships. And that doesn't mean I never debate with anyone right or wrong around sexual orientation because that to me is not the point.

The point is, it's true, it exists. All of us know who've lived in black communities, that they're people in those communities who are not heterosexual or who are not heterosexual all the time. And what I've tried to illuminate is that reality and then also to try to get some better understanding between and amongst the different parts of our family. We can go on, but there's a couple more questions I want to ask you, Ms. Smith. You also write about the Anita Hill Clams time-assented hearings that reinforce the perceptions that any black woman who raises the issue of sexual oppression in the African-American community is somehow a traitor to a race. Yes. Give us your perspective on that hearing. Well, I don't think it's a traitor to the race to say that somebody is doing something that's not right, that is not acceptable. In Anita Hill's case, she was bringing torches of sexual harassment, that's not right. But sexual harassment is only one form of violence against women. Too many black women and other women too end up dead as a result of those unexamined attitudes.

And we have a really horrible history and relationship with the so-called criminal justice system, with the police. So the thing is that when black women talk about domestic violence and talk about sexual violence, sexual assault, etc., we are not necessarily saying, and we will go to the police, and all will be solved, because our communities have been invaded and have been under siege, to this very day, from the police, all of the police indeed do need to treat victims, all of that kind of violence with respect, and with concern. But the thing is that, I know that we have, there are more layers to it than just saying, that black men who perpetrate such crimes should be prosecuted. That's too simplistic.

Barbara Smith authored the book, The Truth That Never Hurts, Riding on Race, Gender, and Freedom, published by Rutgers University Press. If you have questions, comments, or suggestions asked your future in Black America programs, write us. Also, let us know what radio station you heard us over. The views and opinions expressed on this program are not necessarily those of this station or of the University of Texas at Austin. Until we have the opportunity again for IBA, Technical Producer, David Alvarez. I'm Johnny O'Hanston, Jr. Thank you for joining us today, and please join us again next week. Cassette copies of this program are available and may be purchased by writing in Black America cassettes. Communication Building B, UT Austin, Austin, Texas, 78712. That's in Black America cassettes, Communication Building B, UT Austin, Austin, Texas, 78712. From the University of Texas at Austin, this is the Longhorn Radio Network.

I'm Johnny O'Hanston, Jr. Join me this week on in Black America. That when Black women talk about domestic violence and sexual violence, sexual assault, et cetera, we are not necessarily saying, and we will go to the police, and all will be solved. Barbara Smith, author of the book The Truth That Never Hurts, Writing on Race, Gender, and Freedom, this week on in Black America.