Gateway to Ideas; 1; The American Genius For Self-Examination

(blank) (pause) Gateway To Ideas Gateway To Ideas. A new series of conversations in which ideas are discussed in relation to reading. Today's program "The American Genius" for self examination is moderated by Ralph Backlund managing editor of Horizon Magazine. [Host]: For this discussion of "The American Genuis For Self-Examination," we have as our guests, Russell

Lines. The managing editor of Harper's magazine. Who himself has examined the American scene of several books. One of them is well known as the "Taste Makers" another is "A Surfeit of Honey." And our other guest is Mr. Alan Price Jones, who was formally editor of the London Times Literary supplement. But has been in United States since 1960. And also had a chance to examine American society. Came here with a grant from the Ford Foundation. As at present the book critique of New York Herald Tribune. Now I think I'll start by making 2 observations. Ah, they're not my own observations as a matter of fact. Constance Rourke and her book of American Humor, which was published some years ago, says the no one can imagine the significant English called The Englishman. But what Harry James wrote The America. The very title of that book seem to fulfillment. And none of us thought an awkward first place. Seems perfectly natural. The other thing is when Eric Larrabee 4 years ago, published a book in this country call The Self Conscious Society. It was published, the next year, in several other countries, and Italy, given it, literally

translated as, America Judges Itself. And the French title was, Inquiette et Lucide Amerique, Uneasy And Lucid America. Now, both of those tiles are perfectly adequate titles for Mr. Larrabee's book. But it's clear that at least in the Latin countries, no one had any idea of self consciousness. I mean that idea couldn't be gotten across. Uh, does that make a self conscious as a purely american trait? Mr. Lines, since you've examined it yourself. [guest]: Well I don't think by any means self- consciousness is a peculiar American trait. I think that examination American society has become a major literary industry in this country. Uh, obviously because Americans like read about themselves. They like to find out what other people think they are. Partly I think, because they use this as a guide to acting the way they think is acceptable. Mr. Price Jones said before we, we went on the air, that he thought the idea of Americans being conformists

was, was, uh a rather nonsensical one. And I think it is in a way. On the other hand I do think that, uh, the American, does like to know how he stands relations to others and his society. And this is one of the reasons why we read some many and write so many books of this sort. And why we can be said to be self conscious. [host]: Well, doesn't the Frenchman or the Englishman? What about it Mr. Price Jones? [guest]: I would think (indistinct) Americans want to be loved more than some other people's. The French for example didn't give a damn whether they're love or hated. They just go on being themselves. [host]: And what about the English? [guest]: And the English I would think, suffer from the same self consciousness as if you want anything, if anything even more so than Americans. Isn't it an Anglosaxon trait? Wouldn't you think that it comes from the fact that so much of the world speaks the same language, speaks English. But that there are obviously huge differences between Australia, New Zealand, the United States Great Britain and so forth. And that if you live in any of those countries, you are bound to be a bit self conscious about yourself, often in relation to the others. I think that's one thing, whereas the French so to speak have just their own French world; the Germans have their own In general there is more lifting together. The Anglo-Saxon word is a huge [inaudible] thing

I would think this, but so I would think though that the British were the least self- conscious at least I think you will find the Americans, the Canadians, and the Australians, in relation to the British, are always a little bit afraid that they aren't behaving the way they ought to. [host]: What you're saying there Mr. Lines is that this goes with new societies, the newer ones. [guest]:Yes, possibly. It also goes from a long history of being told how we ought to behave by the British. [host]: by our elders and betters. [guest]: Ah, this began of course, partly began in the 18th century, but certainly began in the 19th, when a great stream of British and English travelers came across, over here, went through as much of the country's, they come home and wrote a book about it. One of the best known ones is Mrs. Trollope's, Domestic Matters of The Americans, which came out oh about when? [host]:Oh it was she was here in twenty-eight, 1828, and it came out about 1831. [guest]: She is one of the earliest? [host]:Yes. [guest]: And of course her view of us was considered to be highly unflattering And how did we react then? We were absolutely furious and bought her book by the millions not million millions of course, we weren't millions then, but it was one of the great bestsellers of the early 19th century both here and in

England I believe. And of course it's still read and quoted all the time. She spawned in other words, if she did originate originate this, and I'm not sure that she did, a great volume of literature of examination of the American society and American character, I would think mostly written by foreigners before the turn of the century? Would that be right? Mostly foreign travelers? [guest]: I would think almost for sure. But to begin don't you think it is partly because the British living in Great Britain were accustomed to think of themselves up to about 1800 or so anyway, as the center of the British speaking, the English speaking world and therefore, I suppose I suppose they felt they were setting a standard for everybody else. They thought they were in fact the world of English speakers, and therefore, I admit, that they were trying to sort of call other people into lying if they slipped out. This I may say was not understood by anybody for more than about fifty years. It was stopped in no time by Australians, New Zealanders, Americans, and everybody else. [host]: But one of the things about them the Mrs.Trollopes and the Harriet Martineaus, and Capitain Marriott, and those people who were here in the early part part of the century, was that they were looking on it as a society which was a society based on an egalitarianism which they found very odd

indeed <unk> Mrs. Trollope made it quite clear she thought that if we just give up all this nonsense about equality, we would be really rather nice people, and probably behave ourselves rather better than we did in her view. Her view was a very middle class kind of morality and kind of manners. But we were looked on as more of a social, political experiment by these people, than as a going concern we were very young as a nation then. [host]: But don't you think they also, certainly Ms. Martineau, and Mrs. Trolloppe, and Dickens later also as, definitely an off shoot of English culture, at-least in Anglo Saxon society society which we really aren't any more didn't, by the end of the century were, we were not. I mean it's somewhat apparent looking at the child, if they had looked at us I suppose de Tocqueville did as a matter of fact, the Frenchman, if they looked at us as something totally new in the world, it might have taken a somewhat different [inaudible]) [guest]: But of course you hadn't had the big waves of immigration, had you? When they were writing? They were to follow later.ow It was to some extent a child of Great Britain, the United States in those days. [guest]: Oh indeed it was, it was a rather naughty child for having gone off and. [guest]: People like Henry Adams

when they started writing about the United States, even in the 1860s and 70s, they were thinking weren't they, that Americans were far too respectful towards England and, I mean they complained very much about the fact that the child was being too kind towards its parent and I think the Americans react very shocked against this attitude, don't you think? that rather Americans were as they thought being too friendly too well disposed towards Great Britain. [guest]: One of the things that happened was when in what has been called the first age of the the common man, Andrew Jackson era, when we had this great wave of egalitarianism, it was accompanied as such things are always by a great wave of snobism and one turns for taste and ideas to Europe as as the chic thing to do and you became awfully self conscious of the place that they to look to for their for their ideas and manners and arts weren't nice to them I'm sure they were self conscious about it. The generation before that had no need for the [inaudible] advice. That's right, it was the kind of aristocratic society which disappeared, and a new

kind of commercial and industrial aristocracies began to grow up, as de Toqueville says in this makes for a kind of, a new kind of snobbism which turns to England and to France for its... the scariest thing is that in the 18th century, The Books of Manners were all taken from France. It's in the 19th century that we begin to do our own books of manners and base them on English books of manners. [host]: Yes, that is an interesting point. It is a point that that generation was assured and confident, though I think even from the very beginning they always felt of themselves something distinct and American. [guest]: Yes. [host]: I mean, it's only later on that we felt we had to assert this kind of difference from Europe. But, when did the American way about self examination begin, would you say? After all, the books you've been talking about were all written in the 19th century, or... [guest]: Don't you think Henry Adams was almost the first influential one I would think? Henry Adams I think was the first big influential one. In a sense it was Hawthorne, then

then Hawthorne's notebooks, his English notella notebooks writing about other countries are a very good depiction of a good New England point of view aren't they? And he's asserting American values against other people's values? [guest] Well and Mark Twain does this some too. Yes and of course Henry James will comparison, really in reverse, I mean happily believed to the old world [host]: but I, the great drift the great wave of books, self conscious books, books of self examination, books of self criticism has certainly come along in the twentieth century. [guest]: Why yes, and almost I suppose the great wave since the second World War. [guest]:Do you think it was because, perhaps, all the countries in the world were forced into much closer contact with all the other countries countries anyone who had an army in the field since tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of soldiers overseas to other places people became more aware of other peoples lives and therefore became more interested in their own. [host]: I think that's part of it. I would think that probably a very strong influential factor in this would be the fact that America

suddenly found itself in a position of power which it had never been in before which made it rather uneasy and began to make it wonder whether indeed it was a worthy of being in such a place of power and rather embarrassed by it. [guest]: I think that you are rather in the same position here that Great Britain was in the middle of the nineteenth century when people like Matthew Arnold started explaining to the British what Philistines and what generally undesirable people they were to be in the main position of power in the world. [host]: Well, Mr. Price Jones would you compare Arnold under the kind of person, the kind of author we have in this country who examines us? [guest]: I think Arnold is better than any author writing in his own field in any country at this moment. The situation remains the same I think. Arnold was trying to be a sort of pacemaker for the ideal British of his time and a great many people in this country now I would think were trying to do the same thing thing for Americans, at this time. [host]: But was Arnold ever taken up in a way? [inaudible] [guest]: Oh tremendously! There was a great deal of excitement with Arnold in the late 1860s, 70s, and 80s. the 70s and 80s more about Arnold's activities. [host]: Of course the sheer multiplication of books

books, the ease at which books are produced and sold in markets today means no matter in any category you'll have a great many more. But we could list here, we don't need to do it, we could go down a list of titles every month brings out a new book of the kind we are talking about; not all by any means as good as as some that we have mentioned. And, how much of this do you think is simply a writing a fad and making a quick buck so to speak of [guest]: I don't think much, I think it's too hard work to make a quick buck out of [host]: I know you've written two and it is hard work [guest]: Yes, it does take a lot of time and trouble. [guest]:The, I started the first piece of this sort that I ever did was a piece called High Brow Low Brow, Middle Brow, which is meant to be a satire on this kind of thing, which I then subsequently discovered was being taken quite seriously by the sociologists. That was rather surprising. [inaudible[ [host]: Well didn't that same thing happen happen with the 'you-non-you' [guest]: Yes, that started as a joke and suddenly became nearly serious it's quite true. [host]: Of course these jokes that turn seriously can sometimes cast

a ray of light on what we do. What I wonder about this kind of book is how much of it is a serious examination of our character with some imbue? And how much of it is simply an attempt to find some kind of easy self gratification or self justification? [guest]: I don't think most of them are but are self-justifying. I would have thought such books as I have read. I'm thinking of Norman Mailer's books or sold books I read earlier this year called, Normal Neuroses, by a husband and wife, whose name was Paytne-- Dr. Paytne and Dr. Paytne, they were both doctors. [host]: What is a normal neurosis? [guest]: a normal neurosis is simply an inadequacy, or what they simply call what adjusted Americans feel, 'in touch with daily life.' For example, they do terrible things like marrying for love. This is much disapproved of by the Paytnes. They ought to marry for, enlightened self interest. And, by and large, they are attacking the 'adjusted American' as someone who is inadequate to cope cope with the difficulties of American life. My point being, that it's attack I think it's the line, don't you think, of a lot of these writers, that complaining about their fellow Americans rather than trying to boost them up. [host]: I think that's true. I think that probably, if, it is time now

to attack them, the normal Americans, then this means that all other forms of attack have been used up. [laughs]. And I think that for a number of books, this is probably so. [host]: [inaudible] [inaudible] examining the American character for someone of the point of view. He went on to say that one of our characters [inaudible] a certainly great self confidence and then he said, self-confidence melts easily if complacency and this into arrogance, then the American has rather more his share of both. He believes that his country has reached the pinnacle of civilization. The American constantly asserts that he enjoys the highest standard of living though the Scandinavian countries and Canada have a higher. That his medicine is the best in the world though his country is eleventh in infant mortality. That his form of government is indubitably the best, though not one of the sum fifty new nations that seem fit to copy it. [guest]: Quite untrue, and a thought. of the modern world. It might have been true fifty or sixty years ago, but it isn't true of contemporary Americans. I'm sure they haven't got this feeling. [host]:I would suggest Mr. [inaudible] Joe Johnson's book on which came out a while ago. require local cod carrier which is nuts unfinished cathedral

he takes issue with, with the idea that anybody has any right to sell America as is. What we are trying to sell, "America as is," what we wish were going to be. If it's half finished, than it's more finished than he thinks it is. I don't think there's a great deal of complacency, I think that we try and sell, export, an idea about America which not a great many of us actually believes is the way it is, at least not [inaudible]. [host]: In other words, Mr. Lines, it's something synthetic which... a commodity. [guest]: Yes, it's a kind of propaganda which we rather distrust. I don't think Americans like propaganda much. I think they pride themselves on seeing through propaganda and therefore they use it rather badly. [host]: But are they able to see through the propaganda about themselves? [guest]: Well if they read everything that is written about them, they'd... [host]: Which is so contradictory, they must know that somebody is not right about them. [guest]: These things that have been written about Americans, let's ask Mr. Price Jones because after all, he has not lived here as long as we have. Uh, how many really good ones have you read? Which seem to

say something true about the American character? [guest]: Well the only thing which I know abut the American character is that, having lived here only for a very short time, which is about four or five years, every day I realize how little I know because there are so many exceptions. I think there is no American character as such any more than there is really an English character. I think there is oddly enough a French character, but the English and the American the Americans, seem to me, to be fundamentally individualists, I think they are great individuals, and I wouldn't like if there was any overall pattern of American life, I mean my impression say of life in Cincinnati is as often unlike life life in New Orleans, [inaudible] unlike life in Santa Barbara, and so on forever, right down to the individuals. I wouldn't think that Americans are the least impressed by propaganda either for or against themselves and I think they're getting on with life as best they may. [host]:I think that some of the books have been useful, like White's book, On The Organization of Man. [guest]: Yes. [host]: To sort of make the organization in some ways look look at itself and pull up its socks. I think this has more to do, however, with the institution, and correcting the faults of the institution, than the individuals [inaudible] own feeling about himself or his relation to the community. [guest]: [inaudible] Vance Packard

I think has done a useful work sometimes, I think, in calling attention to flaws in the organization of a society [host]: Exactly. [guest]: I think that's good, I mean, I think people pay attention to that. [host]: As soon as one of these books, that Vance Packard has certainly done, and so has Holly Whyte's book, The Organization of Man, as soon as they give us a catchword, it does not necessarily mean, at least I hope this is true, that that we just use the word easily on our tongue, but no longer examine what it means. I think it means that we have applied it someway along the line we have got a new concept. Would you agree with that Mr. Lines? [guest]: I would think so, yes. I think that, Holly Whytes' books, and Packards' books are greatly exaggerated in order to make a point. [host]: Of course, but if the point is made... [guest]: I think the point is made and often usefully. [guest]: I noticed an interesting thing in the war when I was in the army, it seemed to me, because I was attached at different times to three American armies, and one American army group, and it struck me that... (I was obviously in the British army.) It struck me that the British army, on a high level, was liable to repeat mistakes mistakes. It said, 'no we're right' we worked this out, and we're going to do it this way, and they did it three times over the same way and it failed three times. If we tried to explain having got the hang of it, to our American friends,

that this was not the way to do something they had to do, it was a complete waste of time. They had to make the mistake themselves, but they never repeated it. My point being, that Americans, I think, have a pragmatic sense about how to cope in situations which is second to nobody's. Although they may have to make the mistake once, they don't make it three times over. [host]: Perhaps, we just have to believe that the mistake can be made. I mean, we're skeptical after all, that's one of our. one of the things that we pride ourselves on. Whether we are or not is another matter, but... [guest]: [inaudible] a splendid piece on the, what was it called.. the American concept of invincibility? No. I have not got it right which was the notion that that you mentioned before, that is, that America does things right it is strong, it has a good export thing. And we are constantly being shown that this is not so. So, I think you are right. We don't go and do that one again. We may go into something based on a similar notion, but we don't go making the same mistakes twice. [guest]:This, incidentally, is Gerald Johnson's great hope He said that one of the possessions that this era has, is written history partly removed from mythology.

only partly removed. But out of written history, he thinks we have a chance of not making the same mistake again, that we are the first Western civilization or civilization that ever had a real written history. and maybe this accumulation of stuff, I say stuff, uh, is part of our written history. and is in that sense useful. [host]: By 'we' Johnson means what, the United States? [guest]: No, he means Western Civilization civilization in general now. [host]: Of course it is the only one of the written history in any case, but I wonder now that so many new nations are emerging in other parts of the world; I don't like that word 'emerging nataions' but I don't know what to use... Anyways, there are new nations, which, in accelerated form are repeating the process that went on in this country. I wonder if they, also, are going to turn on themselves the same searchlight of self examination that we seem to have done here. [guest]: A lot comes with [inaudible]' and I'm sure, that for example, that the British examined their case very much in terms of their income when they were very rich and powerful in the nineteenth century, they were often worried about that as the United States having now taken over is worried about the situation in the United States. Now the British, I think, have even become much poorer and less powerful i went about why that's happening and has gotten into a frenzied so biddle is a

reflection of where you stand in terms of the african state when stand in a long time they went away that's what well what they were worried about a recession what we worry about weaker so concise it's a problem that industry pickens from the things i've heard about that and that is these people come here and i spent a few months may go away right it reverses is precisely what's happening about loving nation and was going to write a book about get out and they every right reason at the same time i think you know for your furs at the very beginning before east are wondering about commanders and then eventually your morals and family about really really exist but you do have to manufacture a kind of existence for itself were passed and i think that made a new countries are on the end of our own history of first time trying to create another resident we did that at the beginning you still doing this this is the one about the popularity of this new book why do a really solid

since many people read your books was blindly was what i wish that i could say that that they're anywhere nearly as ninety were red horses rest of it i think you are exaggerate some reserved for a lot of these books and very few of them so a great many copies well i was a girl the cell phones as men have that right as he's been read by non muslims of people i think at levy's book which you've mentioned if it so ten thousand copies of the us it's sort of a sage and ninety thousand copies in part covering that story for the paper that sort of ten years more enemies is a lot of reading a year which is being run now flies the thirties and only because we were to falter because the massacres is because of a lot of cells is because i think you said earlier that it might be because we're always changing and that has made his news

assistant ever really has a history of love of love this is the eighteenth it is there is an examination kinds of people who've made a taste change others it's not sociological examination that sentences terrible week we are still know where we came from i think in that sense the m last book about it which is the best get americans is again a look at the development of ominous of the social history of the new normal so swiftly but we do believe that it's the silver pseudo sociology at the time as it's going on i wonder if a lot of this is red because people on it were reversed how does britain who was responsible for more ideas that anybody again this is a difficult and raise a review would have resulted in this country you have an enormous

number of different streams of light coming into the light side and kind of an interesting cat and incomes they exhibit but what caused some reason by daines in joints mostly moms and those people is interesting when emotions about what they were like a nuisance and they went after the victims says that is not his name medellin streams creeks streams puerto rican streams sagal well coming through wednesday's event about a hundred and fifty years or so and i did in a setting of the component parts of all of this is another component parts and it interested in they feel them up and we all belong to the same country where we're already are nba season edition of the united states which takes us all and i think there's a lot of information but it's sort of an infamous incident doesn't lead a percentage of people who would like to have some light from the situation of the united states yes it was really funny very hard life it's a very very complex thing as an innocent as an internet

isn't a single homogeneous it isn't only think you do it because you were able to vote wasp of the nicest dr tony macklin has nerd civilizations i'd have to disagree with it for some investment that you're saying that he tries to oversimplify us eleanor to get everything in the virus infection we're going to make have not read about it in its final reel of red flags in the book that i think is going to explain to you americans don't know i tried so i'll read a real answer to sell it has developed like the same has to come to the united states doesn't begin to find real facts were mostly what happened to the idea of mr robin we love conclusions about it that has incentives to enter the making of others and they were all there there's the point right there was the price chosen that raises some questions about a lot of

coverage it is that it oh it because all their conclusions which are people we want because we have a conclusion and it received knowledge of the planet's much is moving up in a cell condos of the new books include larry page it doesn't quite hard to do things that flows over the country this size and i was those were the small extent was a minute and there that intentional they didn't have listened to me loving zuckerman and a question of people who say well i know the cost of schools wasn't hitting those and they had it i think father's inevitably because they want a pickle they can go into a limited a much more say than in england is one that gets a little listener letter mr we move that we don't travel well nation in the world isn't going to see what less than knowing oh you but of almost anyone europeans who come here

probably government or curriculum the native americans and that they will be as small as italy's of the medical examiner in france who have recently and cell phones is that the two reasons or the faith of little agreement that is they would have reasons that is one hundred images of us does that i mentioned reason is an unreasonable name when his pals and they have to rush ms dinoto is one aspect there's i think that we've we've overlooked in that that is not books the magazines and the extent to which my business today are devoted to the same kinds of things really the dominant books of fiction has as morales more and more disappeared of the mac magazine and that sort of sociology or realtors yeah you have companies that a place that's too much eliza maybe because it's a section

disappearing <unk> disagreements amusement park at once was that was once a vehicle for those democrats actually get it no longer a supervisor and an old box of recently which were the real voice of reason this country and that was fiction of months of late and then it is the role of mrs been taken in my movies wooden buildings and since the problem with questions i think at this time that we've covered the feel of books and all that back and regrettable could work is self revelatory something of life gets to thank you very much you've been listening to gateway to ideas a new series of conversations in which ideas are discussed in relation to reading today's program the american genius for self examination has presented russell lines editor of harper's magazine and alan price jones book critic for the new york herald tribune the moderator was about batman managing editor of horizon magazine to extend the dimensions of today's program for you a list of the books mentioned in the

discussion as well as others relevant to the subject has been prepared you can obtain a copy from your local library or by writing to gateway to ideas post office box six four one time square station new york and p isn't as a standard self addressed on the right about six four one time square station new york gateway to ideas produced the national educational radio under a grant from the national home library foundation the programs are prepared by the national book committee and the american library association in cooperation with the national association of educational broadcasters technical production by riverside radio wypr in new york city this is the national educational radio network

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