New Dimensions; The Tao of Physics; Part 1

<v Michael Toms>[music] It is only through a change of consciousness that the world will be transformed. <v Michael Toms>As we bring mind, body, psyche and spirit into <v Michael Toms>harmony and unity. <v Michael Toms>So also will the world be changed. This is our responsiblity as <v Michael Toms>we create and explore new dimensions of <v Michael Toms>being. [music] <v Michael Toms>Welcome to New Dimensions. My name is Michael Toms.

<v Michael Toms>Hello, I'm Dierdre Wu, and we're gonna be talking with <v Michael Toms>Fritjof Capra, the author of The Tao of Physics and someone who has <v Michael Toms>probably done as much as anyone in present time to bring the insights of modern physics <v Michael Toms>together with the truths of ancient mysticism. <v Michael Toms>Stay with us. We're gonna be here for the next two hours. <v Michael Toms>[music] <v Michael Toms>Fritjof, it's been a few years now since The Tao of Physics came out, and I remember then

<v Michael Toms>when we talked right after the book was released and you were talking about how <v Michael Toms>that the straight - the modern, the straight physics world wasn't - wasn't relating to <v Michael Toms>it too well. I'm wondering what's happened now in the last few years, because I know that <v Michael Toms>there have been some breakthroughs and perhaps you could share those with us. <v Fritjof Capra>Yes, a lot of things have happened. And let me begin by saying that I'm very <v Fritjof Capra>happy to be here and and talking to you. <v Fritjof Capra>It's, I think, two or three years. <v Fritjof Capra>How long ago was it? Three - Three years. It's sort of a good time span to <v Fritjof Capra>sit down again. And I was thinking about this while the music was playing to reflect <v Fritjof Capra>of what you have done in your life and how you have interacted <v Fritjof Capra>with your environment, with the society, with the culture and so on. <v Fritjof Capra>Well, to come back to your question, when the book came out, <v Fritjof Capra>physicists were predictably very cautious <v Fritjof Capra>and they recognized that the physics <v Fritjof Capra>was OK, that there are no errors in it as far as physics is concerned.

<v Fritjof Capra>And what is more, they recognized that I had done a good job in explaining <v Fritjof Capra>the rather complex concepts of modern physics in a language that lay people could <v Fritjof Capra>understand. You say physicists, most of them are confronted with this <v Fritjof Capra>problem when they teach, and they know from experience that it's very difficult to <v Fritjof Capra>put these rather complex concepts into ordinary words. <v Fritjof Capra>That's a great struggle. And so they appreciated what I had done there. <v Fritjof Capra>They didn't buy the mysticism. <v Fritjof Capra>And they were sort of polite and they said, well, this is <v Fritjof Capra>all very interesting. <v Fritjof Capra>And then sort of - mumbled something. <v Fritjof Capra>But in the meantime, I think one thing that I have achieved <v Fritjof Capra>is that I have made the word 'mysticism' more acceptable <v Fritjof Capra>in scientific circles. They don't laugh it off any longer. <v Fritjof Capra>They are beginning to take it seriously. <v Fritjof Capra>They're beginning to recognize that there are cultural traditions, philosophical

<v Fritjof Capra>traditions, religious traditions that are very different from our Western tradition, <v Fritjof Capra>that are not based on rational analysis and that are also valid. <v Fritjof Capra>So now they are beginning to take it more seriously. <v Fritjof Capra>In fact, one interesting case in point <v Fritjof Capra>is Victor Weisskopf, who is one of the leading <v Fritjof Capra>nuclear and particle physicists. He has written the standard textbook on nuclear <v Fritjof Capra>physics. He was the director of CERN in Europe for many years and he's <v Fritjof Capra>sort of one of the leaders in the physics establishment. <v Fritjof Capra>You could say, you know, he knows everybody and and so on. <v Fritjof Capra>And uh - He's also an excellent interpreter <v Fritjof Capra>of physics. He writes popular essays on - on physics, <v Fritjof Capra>and I have always admired him for that greatly. <v Fritjof Capra>And I've been in touch with him since the very beginning when I was writing the book. <v Fritjof Capra>And he encouraged me to write it because he saw that my approach to physics

<v Fritjof Capra>was valid and that I had some talent in expressing these concepts and <v Fritjof Capra>in a way that could be understood. <v Fritjof Capra>And then when the book was written, I showed him the manuscript and <v Fritjof Capra>he just didn't like the whole mysticism at all. <v Fritjof Capra>He was very much against all that. <v Fritjof Capra>So when it came out, he told me that he had severe doubts about that aspect. <v Fritjof Capra>But then he said I'd be very interested to see how it is doing, <v Fritjof Capra>how it is accepted by the public - how I'd be selling. <v Fritjof Capra>And then when I told him that in a few months or a half <v Fritjof Capra>a year afterwards that it really had found a tremendous response, he became even <v Fritjof Capra>more interested. And I don't see him very often. <v Fritjof Capra>So the next time I saw him, I - he said to me that <v Fritjof Capra>that he still liked it and that he is now giving it to several friends. <v Fritjof Capra>And, you know, he has been buying it and giving it his Christmas presents and so on. <v Fritjof Capra>And that's a typical attitude that it is being accepted more and more in the physics - <v Fritjof Capra>physics community. It's for me personally, it's also significant that I'm now teaching

<v Fritjof Capra>in the physics department at UC Berkeley. <v Fritjof Capra>I have been teaching courses which I had called the Tao of Physics in <v Fritjof Capra>Departments for Interdisciplinary Study at UC Berkeley and it says San Francisco <v Fritjof Capra>State and various other places. <v Fritjof Capra>But now I'm right in the physics department and I teach a course, an introductory course <v Fritjof Capra>to physics for non physicists. I don't call it the Tao of Physics. <v Fritjof Capra>I just call it physics then as it is - as - as it has always been called. <v Fritjof Capra>But the fact that I am now accepted by the physics department as as a teacher of physics, <v Fritjof Capra>as an interpreter of physics, I think for me that's a big success. <v Michael Toms>Has the book been adopted as a textbook in any other universities? <v Michael Toms>Yes, yes. <v Fritjof Capra>Yes. In many in many colleges, many, many physics teachers use it as a textbook or as <v Fritjof Capra>a supplementary reading. <v Michael Toms>Well, it's certainly foreign beyond - what I remember as being the physics 101 <v Michael Toms>textbook that I had to work with. <v Michael Toms>One of the things that occurs to me is you're talking about explaining and how you've <v Michael Toms>created a metaphor that's - that's accepted by the general public to - <v Michael Toms>as an understanding of - a deeper understanding of physics.

<v Michael Toms>And one of the people you dedicated your book to was Krishnamurti. <v Michael Toms>Yes, um, and I'd like to ask you what effect Krishnamurti had in - in <v Michael Toms>and why you - why you - why he was one of the people you dedicated the book to. <v Fritjof Capra>He influenced me very strongly in the 1960s <v Fritjof Capra>when I became interested in the Eastern traditions. <v Fritjof Capra>I was then teaching physics at UC Santa Cruz, and he came to the university and <v Fritjof Capra>lectured for three or four days. <v Fritjof Capra>And, uh, he talked about <v Fritjof Capra>very basic concepts and very basic human <v Fritjof Capra>pushes, positions, vis-a-vis thought language, <v Fritjof Capra>death, life, living in the moment, attention. <v Fritjof Capra>Various things they teach you in the eastern traditions, but which he taught <v Fritjof Capra>and still teaches in a very original way. <v Fritjof Capra>I don't think you can call him a Hindu or Buddhist or anything like that. <v Fritjof Capra>He's a very original teacher and he also

<v Fritjof Capra>has a very powerful presence himself. <v Fritjof Capra>He's very striking, a very striking personality. <v Fritjof Capra>And this was even stronger ten years ago. <v Fritjof Capra>I think if you want a model, if you wanted to make a movie about Don Juan, <v Fritjof Capra>you know, he could play the leading role. <v Fritjof Capra>[laughter] You know. [laugher] He looks like, you know, how Castendo describes his Don <v Fritjof Capra>Juan - extremely beautiful and, you know, a penetrating eyes. <v Fritjof Capra>And - and his whole presence is just something to behold. <v Fritjof Capra>And I think it was even stronger in those days. <v Fritjof Capra>He's - he's getting older now, of course. <v Fritjof Capra>But - but 10 years ago, he was had a really deep impact on me. <v Michael Toms>And apparently he has had an interest in physics. <v Michael Toms>And I'm trying to recall the English physicist that he's had several conversations with. <v Fritjof Capra>Yes, David Bohm. David Bohm. David Bohm is actually closely associated with <v Fritjof Capra>Krishnamurti and and has ongoing discussions with Krishnamurti. <v Fritjof Capra>There was also a conference where Krishnamurti invited about a dozen scientists <v Fritjof Capra>in England, and I participated in that - but also - in that one also.

<v Fritjof Capra>David Bohm was there. <v Fritjof Capra>And Karl Pribram was there. <v Fritjof Capra>And another physicist, George Sudarshan, who is Indian and <v Fritjof Capra>has a chair of physics at the University of Texas and various other <v Fritjof Capra>people, two psychologists and various other scientists. <v Fritjof Capra>That was also very exciting. Hmm Hmm.Well, this book was kind of a breakthrough <v Fritjof Capra>in popular physics and popularizing the notion of physics for more people. <v Michael Toms>What have been some of the things that have happened to you personally over the last <v Michael Toms>couple of years since last we talk that - that kind of were tangential <v Michael Toms>results of the book that perhaps you never even expected to have happen. <v Fritjof Capra>Well, I think the - it obviously, <v Fritjof Capra>you know, when - when you write a book - when you sit somewhere in a small apartment <v Fritjof Capra>in some town, for me, this was London and, uh, live <v Fritjof Capra>in the way that you never know how to pay the next rent. <v Fritjof Capra>And, uh, you don't have any support from any university for doing <v Fritjof Capra>this work.

<v Fritjof Capra>And you just keep on writing a book and do all kinds of odd jobs, you know, to stay, <v Fritjof Capra>to survive. <v Fritjof Capra>And then, uh, two years later, uh, the book is - <v Fritjof Capra>is you know, has over 100,000 sales. <v Fritjof Capra>And - and I can - I get invited to give a talk and they fly me to New York <v Fritjof Capra>and and back and put me up in a hotel. <v Fritjof Capra>And - and I - I speak to a thousand people or <v Fritjof Capra>two thousand people, and, uh, I'm working on a new book. <v Fritjof Capra>And before I even start writing, I'm here, at the radio station and they asked me, you <v Fritjof Capra>know, what are your ideas? What's coming up now? <v Fritjof Capra>Let's see. A tremendous change! And of course, my whole life has changed tremendously. <v Fritjof Capra>And I had to adapt and it was difficult to adapt to that. <v Fritjof Capra>The fact that I was then alone without any support <v Fritjof Capra>and I now have a literary agent and a tax consultant and [laughter] an answering <v Fritjof Capra>service and a secretary and all that. <v Fritjof Capra>It's a tremendous change. <v Fritjof Capra>And so there - there's some burden that - that just <v Fritjof Capra>from the point of view of managing that change, that has been difficult for me.

<v Fritjof Capra>And I think I've done so now. But, uh, that was quite difficult. <v Fritjof Capra>Now, the greatest joy that I got out of this all - the greatest satisfaction <v Fritjof Capra>and - and stimulation was that I'm now part of <v Fritjof Capra>a community of people who <v Fritjof Capra>are part of a rising culture. <v Fritjof Capra>And I think I hope we'll talk about this in more detail later on. <v Fritjof Capra>I feel very strongly that the traditional Western <v Fritjof Capra>culture, the culture in which we have been living is on its decline. <v Fritjof Capra>And there's a new culture that Roszak called the counterculture - <v Fritjof Capra>at the same time, by the way, that I met Krishnamurti. <v Fritjof Capra>He was he was coming out with this book making of the counterculture. <v Fritjof Capra>So that counterculture is rising while the, uh, the traditional culture <v Fritjof Capra>is declining. And I feel very much that I am part of this counterculture. <v Fritjof Capra>And I'm in contact with other people on the leading edge of this counterculture. <v Fritjof Capra>For me, the greatest uh, uh - stimulation

<v Fritjof Capra>and joys that I can now contact people that I hear of <v Fritjof Capra>who are people, leaders in some fields, scientific, philosophical or other, <v Fritjof Capra>and I can tell them who I am and what I've done - and done and what I'm interested in and <v Fritjof Capra>can see them and talk to them. And they will either have heard about me already or they <v Fritjof Capra>will be interested. And this is, for instance, how I met Herbert <v Fritjof Capra>Marcuse, [sneeze] who has always been, you know, one of the <v Fritjof Capra>big, you know, figures, the - the leading Western Marxist - <v Fritjof Capra>or Gregory Bates for instance - people like this who are really, you know, monuments <v Fritjof Capra>in their own fields that I have met over the past three years. <v Fritjof Capra>And and I can now write to them or visit them or call them up without any problem. <v Fritjof Capra>That's that's really fantastic. <v Michael Toms>Yeah, you mentioned the rising culture, and one of the - certainly one of the things <v Michael Toms>that's existed in Western society is the tremendous pedestal that we've placed <v Michael Toms>the scientist on. And - and how much attention and energy we've given to

<v Michael Toms>technology - that's right - as the result - as the result of the scientist. <v Michael Toms>How do you see that changing? <v Fritjof Capra>Well, I have, uh, thought a lot about these questions in the last three <v Fritjof Capra>years and, uh, I had a lot of discussions. <v Fritjof Capra>I should mention maybe that this is another thing that I enjoyed <v Fritjof Capra>tremendously as a result of the popularity of The Tao of Physics. <v Fritjof Capra>I gave a lot of lectures, and, uh, I had a lot of discussions after <v Fritjof Capra>the lectures. And whenever I lecture, I, you know, give a talk of about an hour and then <v Fritjof Capra>I have half an hour question and answer period. <v Fritjof Capra>And most of the time I follow it up with a seminar of another hour or two <v Fritjof Capra>hours where there's just an informal, more or less informal interchange of ideas. <v Fritjof Capra>And this is how I learned myself and I get feedback from what I'm doing. <v Fritjof Capra>And, uh, this has allowed me over the past few years to <v Fritjof Capra>put the parallels between physics and mysticism <v Fritjof Capra>into a broader context, to see the cultural context of it.

<v Fritjof Capra>And I found it very useful to use the Chinese <v Fritjof Capra>terminology of the yin and the yang. <v Fritjof Capra>The yang being the rational mode of consciousness, among other <v Fritjof Capra>things, the yin, the intuitive mode of consciousness, the yang being associated <v Fritjof Capra>with science, the yin with religion, the yang with the masculine <v Fritjof Capra>elements within us, the yin with the feminine elements within us. <v Fritjof Capra>Now if you look at our society and our culture from this point of view, <v Fritjof Capra>you will see that we have consistently emphasized <v Fritjof Capra>the yang over the yin. <v Fritjof Capra>We have emphasized rational knowledge over intuitive <v Fritjof Capra>wisdom, science over religion, activity <v Fritjof Capra>over contemplation. <v Fritjof Capra>What else? Competition over cooperation. <v Fritjof Capra>All these are - are the - the yang values and <v Fritjof Capra>the phenomenon of scientism.

<v Fritjof Capra>That is the belief that scientific knowledge is the only acceptable knowledge. <v Fritjof Capra>And the only valid knowledge is part of that over emphasis of one mode <v Fritjof Capra>of consciousness. And by showing that <v Fritjof Capra>the most extreme specialization, one of the most extreme specializations of <v Fritjof Capra>- of the yang or rational mode of consciousness, namely modern physics, now <v Fritjof Capra>makes a direct contact with one of the most extreme specializations <v Fritjof Capra>of the intuitive mode of consciousness, namely mysticism. <v Fritjof Capra>That shows very beautifully to me that the two are complementary, as the yin yang <v Fritjof Capra>symbolism suggests that we need both scientific <v Fritjof Capra>analysis and intuitive wisdom or mystical insight,if <v Fritjof Capra>you wish, to understand the deepest <v Fritjof Capra>root of things and to be able to manage everyday life, and I think this <v Fritjof Capra>will have a tremendous impact on - on our culture. <v Michael Toms>One of the things that's come out of what you're talking about is the 'Prove It Syndrome'

<v Michael Toms>what - what I call the 'Prove It Syndrome' of, well, you have to prove it scientifically <v Michael Toms>to make it valid. And I want to bring that into connection with Paradox, which, of <v Michael Toms>course, you talk a great deal about in the book The Tao of Physics and the fact that the <v Michael Toms>reality of paradoxes is something that physicists seem to accept, that - <v Michael Toms>that there are opposites and they do exist. <v Michael Toms>And yet when you relate that to the scientific paradigm and that in order to make it <v Michael Toms>scientifically valid, one has to have a repeatable experiment. <v Michael Toms>And it may be possible that there is such experiences in such events that occur <v Michael Toms>that are not repeatable in the scientific mode. <v Michael Toms>What do you think about that? <v Speaker>No, I don't think repeatability is - is <v Speaker>really crucial there. <v Speaker>I'm thinking of psychic phenomenon. And yes, I have a slightly different view of the <v Speaker>whole area of psychic phenomena. <v Speaker>I think that they are repeatable. <v Speaker>But I think that it may be that <v Speaker>there is a similar complementary relationship between

<v Speaker>the manifestation of psychic phenomena and the scientific framework, <v Speaker>so that the more you use the scientific framework to describe them, the less they will <v Speaker>manifest themselves. <v Speaker>And there are various indications for this. <v Speaker>And I've in fact, written a paper on this which is going to come out in the <v Speaker>- in the coming issue of Revision, which is a journal from - coming out from Boston. <v Speaker>And there I - I suggest this complimentarity <v Speaker>and I even coined a word for you to think psycho physical complement - <v Speaker>psycho scientific complementarity. <v Speaker>So the more you use the scientific framework, the less you will observe these phenomena. <v Speaker>It's really a - a special application of the more <v Speaker>wider complementarity between the rational and the intuitive mode of consciousness. <v Speaker>They seem to be mutually exclusive. And in this dynamic, complementary relationship. <v Michael Toms>So you think it's part? How would you validate psychic phenomena? <v Michael Toms>Would you have to develop another model other than a scientific one to do it?

<v Fritjof Capra>Is that what you are suggesting? Uh, No, I would not develop another model. <v Fritjof Capra>But what I'm saying in this paper is that I would follow <v Fritjof Capra>the lesson that physicists had to learn in the early 1920s. <v Fritjof Capra>There was a similar complementary relationship between <v Fritjof Capra>the application of classical language, classical logic and all that <v Fritjof Capra>and the understanding of atomic phenomena, atomic structure, atomic processes <v Fritjof Capra>and so on. They tried again and again. <v Fritjof Capra>These were both Heisenberg, Schrodinger and Iraq. <v Fritjof Capra>And these physicists, a whole group of physicists, who tried again and again <v Fritjof Capra>to apply con - classical concepts to describe <v Fritjof Capra>atomic experiments and they failed it. <v Fritjof Capra>They just couldn't do it. They had these paradoxes, which I in The Tao of Physics <v Fritjof Capra>compared to 'koans' and I call them 'quantum koans.' So they had <v Fritjof Capra>these paradoxes and what you usually do in - in everyday life, if there's something <v Fritjof Capra>paradoxical, you try to clarify it and you say,

<v Fritjof Capra>now, wait a moment, what did you say? <v Fritjof Capra>And who called you last night? And let's get this straight, right, and then tried <v Fritjof Capra>to clarify it as much as possible. And then the paradox usually disappears. <v Fritjof Capra>And, you know, you - you understand one another. <v Fritjof Capra>You clarify things. So this is what - what you do also in science, and this is what they <v Fritjof Capra>did with atomic experiments. But there they had to recognize that the more <v Fritjof Capra>precise they got, the - the clearer they formulated the experimental <v Fritjof Capra>conditions and everything, the sharper the paradoxes stood out. <v Fritjof Capra>The parallel paradoxes didn't go away. They - they - they just became sharper and - <v Fritjof Capra>and more pronounced. <v Fritjof Capra>And it took them a long time to realize that <v Fritjof Capra>this is inherent in the interaction between the human observer <v Fritjof Capra>and atomic phenomena, that you cannot use classical language to describe <v Fritjof Capra>atomic phenomena. Whenever you do, you'll have these paradoxes. <v Fritjof Capra>Now, the reason by mentioning this in - in relation to psychic phenomena is <v Fritjof Capra>that in the early 1920s, at first they reached a stage

<v Fritjof Capra>where they got an intuitive feeling for what would happen <v Fritjof Capra>in a particular experiment. You know, one of the basic paradoxes was the appearance <v Fritjof Capra>of the units of subatomic matter as particles or waves that can take both forms. <v Fritjof Capra>An electron can appear as a particle or as a wave. <v Fritjof Capra>And they would know intuitively after a certain while <v Fritjof Capra>at which experiment an electron would show particle properties <v Fritjof Capra>and in which experiment it would show wave properties. <v Fritjof Capra>Heisenberg has described this afterwards by saying <v Fritjof Capra>that physicists got into the spirit of quantum theory <v Fritjof Capra>before they actually had the mathematical formalism. <v Fritjof Capra>Now, this is I think - if you want to understand psychic phenomena in a scientific <v Fritjof Capra>framework and maybe we should talk about this afterwards, whether this is a good <v Fritjof Capra>idea or not. But if you want to do it, I think this is how you should go - go about. <v Fritjof Capra>To get an intuitive feeling for the manifestation of these phenomena,

<v Fritjof Capra>not to try to be too scientific. <v Fritjof Capra>See, because there may be this- this, uh, complementary dynamics. <v Fritjof Capra>So once - and this is the approach the Castaneda has, you see. <v Fritjof Capra>Castaneda has this experiential approach. <v Fritjof Capra>He also has a scientific approach because he also applies the analytic mind and reasoning <v Fritjof Capra>and everything. And, you know, he takes his notes and during and after these experiences, <v Fritjof Capra>and he sort of jokes about it, and he overemphasizes <v Fritjof Capra>it for I think for literary reasons and dramatic reasons in his book. <v Fritjof Capra>But I think the very power of the Castaneda books is the witnessing <v Fritjof Capra>of this dynamic relationship between the scientific mind and the psychic phenomena. <v Fritjof Capra>So I think that once we can develop a certain intuition <v Fritjof Capra>and a certain sense, a certain trust for - for these phenomena to happen, <v Fritjof Capra>then we can see how far we can push the scientific <v Fritjof Capra>framework to describe them. And - and we may well end up with <v Fritjof Capra>a new type of uncertainty principle that describes this dynamic.

<v Fritjof Capra>See in physics that's what happened. <v Fritjof Capra>At the end of this whole development came Heisenberg's uncertainty principle that tells <v Fritjof Capra>you exactly mathematically to what extent you can use classic language to <v Fritjof Capra>describe atomic phenomena and in a similar way, we could maybe <v Fritjof Capra>know exactly to what extent you can use science to deal with psychic <v Fritjof Capra>phenomena. Interesting. <v Fritjof Capra>We're talking with Fritjof Capra. [music] <v Michael Toms>Fritjof, one of the things that I've noticed is that some of the people who are

<v Michael Toms>parapsychologists are intensely interested and almost <v Michael Toms>driven to want to prove psychic phenomena <v Michael Toms>within the scientific paradigm. <v Michael Toms>And it's almost like people beating their heads against the wall. <v Michael Toms>Um, I'm interested in your reflections and your experience with - with whether the nature <v Michael Toms>of psychic psychic phenomena is worth exploring in a scientific mode and how you feel <v Michael Toms>about that. <v Fritjof Capra>Yes. I think you're you're right about this drive <v Fritjof Capra>to be scientific, not only to be scientific, but to quantify, to have <v Fritjof Capra>statistics and all that, which is, of course, an important part of science. <v Fritjof Capra>And, you know, I have spent a lot of time recently thinking about economics <v Fritjof Capra>and various other sciences. <v Fritjof Capra>And you have the same phenomenon there that economists <v Fritjof Capra>try to put everything into quantities and mathematics <v Fritjof Capra>and prove everything.

<v Fritjof Capra>And that's a general trend in our culture.