1973 Watergate Hearings; 1973-06-14; Part 5 of 6

as ben aig in the cover up where they're not as the exigencies would rise well up we had to move very quickly before the fbi activist for myself on the basic framework once the fbi documents we had it pretty well stay with that generals touring we made some changes but basically at the cover of surrey we used to know was was developing for interviews with the fbi where he used to cover up story before the grand jury and then during the trial is correct and it was the year they discussed at one of this cover up during a meeting with this mixture and columnist to being miserable i know i know it never does no one brought that said the tv i have indicated that i would not there

ever executive privilege because as i understand it i certainly was not all know but did they discuss it as a shelter for themselves not sure enough excuse me senator demint mentioned a couple of times that that might be an approach you might take us but that will be the only one i can remember and again now what specific mr dean and the cover well senator he was one of the people it dealt with this situation and dealt with me directly dealt with mr mitchell dealt with mr rew has to other facets of the cover story was obviously only one and probably the easiest part of the country they're taking care of the handling of the defendants was what was most difficult and my understanding from him and from others was that he was involved in all aspects of this cover up and as i gather as you

gather from the newspaper's their money in other activities that i was not aware of involving the cia and so i was not aware of any second well you became executive director and when you do there and we are on the inaugural committee continue to pay you why i work of commerce department over approximately a two months and that since that time i've been on my own as a private consultant although i did notice a small our inaugural committee which i was reimbursed for this picture

set awry i don't know mrs hardman i have no idea how it came to the future well i believe that you have killed a very complete story i believe you have been fourteen years before this committee and the tragedy of watergate is that it has affected many fine young man who dedicated themselves to present and it has affected their families more now i asked for this final question does it amaze you that draws millions in mind of ocean now you've been living at doing your own music let me just say that i have

it this is very unfortunate period in my life wonderful wife and four children yeah i do and i am not going to lay down and die because of that i think i will love rehabilitate myself i guess is the best word and i think i'm in that process and i hope to be able to live a useful life i would not recommend this as a method of the reemergence but in this case i think i can i will and i when i want to wish you well in your kitchen evers thank you say it i was that was imposed no testimony about beirut in the white house about what's in the major electric that as a matter of fact was a weapons that the senate oh i think senator it would be fair to say that

all of us and eye i really should only speak for myself but for myself i did work at the white house during a time when there were many demonstrations against the president but we knew i knew it is to try to solve a problem and i knew at least i thought he was doing it in the most effective manner possible and yet at the same time i mean i knew that because of the activities of the anti war movement particularly that much of the work was being delayed and can stall because of this created my mind anyway a frustration and a feeling of impotence in being able to deal with this subject and consequently i think we became more i began i should only speak for myself to some extent more tell us about that these activities particularly since there are people that i knew in the movement who were doing what i would call illegal activities are similar to the time we were done in the sense in the watergate and that seemed to be doing it with the approval of a great

deal of privilege you're not a great major american public but certainly with that with some approval but yes i think for years the whole atmosphere of relating to these vets were more politically here difficult for many people who work in the white house and were invaded a contact with these props mr karp well he just came out and demonstrated you know it just came out just at many considered illegal

this year we were and i got them on an end of some people years of replies the west that's been mapped there's a lot of invention was that claim that it was an inherent right in president bounded by the suspect or the apollo and things of that now you've come out lately that the imminence of nineteen seventy when the one of one was livid numbers to come out also mr miller no well listen a plan to write an electronic surveillance and no re examination of people's mail or a call center i'd read what you have read in the papers

and i was not aware of that plan that i assume you know that was a time with many of the people in the white house made a man of the people a male millinery like the absolute focal point finds that so it was yes i i would characterize at least my reaction was stronger after three years of working in that atmosphere than it had been before but with economic market base in the room got this all arose pollution and arsenio than five thousand miles on in this family things like that people found most of our cities have been things like it we got in this nation we will fail and his fare went to the

extent of all they're going to exercise the first amendment right of those who want the seventh edition of the repressive regimes and there are some other routes available you've got in the white house now blaming you will call and leave a democratic administration that have an investigation here about it they came out of so many people again using a tenth of those now now i think i think for my own personal standpoint that i did lose some respect out of war the legal process simply because i didn't see it working you know as i had hoped it would when i came here but that i would like to make sure you understand centers my own feelings and i don't want to contribute that to others

oh no you're welcome a better one he donated to you no no oh i know and then on up to a lot of meetings have been meeting of the olympic events where you without ultimately about this little room and you have a movement and met you because at the meeting

they are well organized and well read who's been to one in the bottle so to enable it into kaplan well mr mitchell in charge of the political rights of the committee to reelect president yes i've worked for mr mitchell from the beginning and i were very close i think personally and that he was in charge and responsible for all of the authorization now libya was important it was gonzales

starts us air and they saw me on what we all saw the sort of carry out this plan with you and make you a handyman work will ruin the crew yeah so i think it's we should say that it was people not only was in one individual's this to a rule at no authority well no pablo the watergate era not through repetition of the watergate may actually arrested and watergate an outcry in one yes or those who are interested in the election the president most of them saute them in the white house or not the model in some of the material that really reelect president became clear that the truth was unveiled the american people might have a bad

effect on the president to really do that with my feelings here's an example yes sir one who's based on religion that lately we've been arrested on who'd been arrested or court has been arrested arrested of gonzales sturgis among latinos would i believe so the question is unless they were taken to hell yes sir and you were interested in you that the regime has relied upon and compensation and they can bet that within us are and i think with that

with keeping people on well that's correct yes and then no all hail to be committed to elect the president of the fact that always wanted to do when the late for him to engage in a legitimate intelligence operations yes sir yes yes it's about the true story

mr perkins i think investors to different stories from other people so that it may not have been aware of la la i'm a listener of the problem is the parties and that will be that the economical problems that's correct he witnessed martin asked me to tell the truth mr vargas i told him the tribute that correction that was after a couple of them devout and as far as i know mr ryan thought that with the legitimate story and ann parkinson i think he was told by others that that glitters true story wasn't true that the cover up story with the true story just everybody

the rue is from pneumonia and yourself one or one that will dissipate and an accomplished poet why question i think that would be the list that i have direct dealings with my arm as i said i think i told mr parkinson the truth to my god keaton was told the truth wasn't the truth of the story was the truth and now you know an interview to our partners take to do what you could have helped the approval of the budget is operations yes sir and you only want to be hot mikado that mr harvey is the system that and a lot of information online in

mr golson the nsa now with the whole yes yes i have more than anybody in the vatican bank to the government would meet with egyptian president and mrs wrong was all this regime and that we you know a lot of that with the help of committee to relax and all the planning is operations that will be a recommended nominated and you'll get stronger yesterday in fairness to mrs run out that as the culture we continue to develop mr scott recently dropped out of the picture industry been in effect became a liaison on that i don't think it's very great extent in the

coverage well as the man who was supposed to be it information them as a whole and you know that you gave to mr strong complete information about the plans although the bob dylan barbara has a lot about that are now so we got to roll the sense that even mr strollo failed to vote on his beard is as amazing man between the committee and i'm as the hollow all he did before multi center i'd rather you take a choice to be ugly because i think it's unfair for me to make an assumption that i have no basis in fact i just don't have anything i don't have the wrong with you do you see the common man in to fight with before mukasey obligated to the fall yes it is and there's the obligate himself

almost have information you give him about the plans for the government of bahrain to respond all that would be right now the breakdown became public news you will call the long distance telephone numbers will this and yet you wonder how are you going to do that with the request for information about that i mean you can call the fighting center where i'm really interested is what we were we doing about not a five minute car what we had a this you know well so i think what we were attempting to do with the handler that says we did not affect from a public relations standpoint denying any involvement song which we get the reasons

is a committed relationship i think so because and he was our security it also normal that medicaid and this is probably what's on his mission became the information you gave him about preparations for this operation if you've done that serious or whether to waive that conversation you got the most on nominations that was true about the complicity of all forces in the committee it forces in the white house about this a lot i think you weaken hamas arrested at

the official white house and the committee were discussed that matter there are many people who are not involved in any way in the planning or cover up the gate work on how to handle these charges now it's a model but that you and others in the committee to re elect the president will and you have a public relations optimist somewhere yes sir anything to do with it thank you that's correct and they are they will not only knows maybe we're glad that all the readers the minerals about though is now on these new discoveries help with a

day at the white house now but i think senator unfairness <unk> shumway mr mcgregor others who had to make public statements i i think they honestly believe the story that we had come up with and they were only carrying out what they thought was the truth but there were all these people who had dissipated in the planning of this including people expected the bomb making and your selection and there will rule and martino and even know when that day of american people gamble all things which were not true about mr zhang

wei understands that now you got them as though the aha moment anyway before the crowd as a huge element that time as any and it also recommended that if they care about some common job of blow this new order just to forego calls he had rented races and the couple yes sir and that revenue then we're about your mom and as tomatoes obama not because obama discussed in this episode i think to be fair in this to mention that although he may vote for me

but not known from other officials and they decided that they're state into more correct than mine i don't know i can't speak for him but i think other people are indicating that these things never get back the relationship between you win this one when the white house i really can't be better for me to speak for him i just like it was somebody a unit that we're interested in going to the center in hindsight i think i agree with you completely at the time of the case the atmosphere was different i am not support my wallet every activity senator and i will not support withdrawal will also

be so anyway you're welcome and for the american people and the white house and he knew about it yeah

the fbi investigated not my idea i know what you ever ever saw it i was not involved in that center so i can't really come sen orrin hatch for the moment completed his questioning of former deputy campaign director jeb stuart and greater and public television's coverage of the senate watergate hearings will continue after this fall for station identification on a bridge to coverage of these hearings is provided as a public service of the member stations of pbs the public broadcasting service well yes and that continues its coverage of hearings by the senate

select committee on presidential campaign activities here again correspondent jim lehrer that arizona's now with cheap minority counsel fred thompson ask questions in response to the question this decision that's this question were you concerned about the government demonstrations about some forces fighting and their lives without nature or this more serious work

well i think there was much deeper than that mr mccourt made you a complete rundown of anything near death threats against mr mitchell's wife against mrs mitchell's wife we had taken kenya's demonstrations in front of our reporters we knew that there were individuals from other campaigns located in our headquarters and work do you in effect to us what we were doing to them again doesn't make it right but we were somewhat fearful through many events that actually get there and we're going on a continuous daily basis san diego we expected a tremendous problem and in fact it got to the point where we we actually had to maneuver the change of the convention site not because of a hotel convention center but because of the demonstrations

other limitation certainly critically and one candidate's campaign to the president that their offices were being used by anti war demonstrators for purposes of disrupting the president sent here preceding know this decision and the other about a series of break ins about the office for a couple years so the whole security procedures radio ad would be changed her plans to overthrow or legitimate surveillance activities that men cannot what's your opinion i would not go so far as saying to overthrow the government i think we had some concern about overthrowing our convention as they did at a party convention in

nineteen sixty eight there was an atmosphere generally speaking i think we in the committee were critically relating our concerns to go to the cashier in the way just because what you get outside of your contributors injured someone on the mentality of the planet and he made his decision there are certainly i think was an atmosphere where certainly illegal acts at that time we were not considered illegal by many people in fact were considered very well no question i'm alive in portland maine and we realise significant possible significance of those

things just one of those just think it's very important that weekend and that's exactly what you know about his situation right now i can see the possibility that that might be some difference of stories of the special region something just under the first confirmation you get a proposition that was made you about any can of intelligence gathering activities the significance of the sandwich and then the eventual only project we did have some minor kind of intelligence gathering going on that he had nothing to do with if i'm a supporter i think it's justified to read out of the kind of significant intelligence gathering that was initiated in that first meeting yesterday and after first meeting with with an instrument said to have some discussion between you and mr bemis mr dean of disapproval of the concept in general of surveillance activities

i think mentally at one week after the first meeting yesterday and i were both concerned about the scope of mr libby's proposal i think we were trying to handle mr libby in an appropriate manner and and and we try to say no ordinary is going way out of left field here and you got to come back and he was quite annoyed that you didn't get immediate approval and saw fifteen witnesses mr gene was not i would not characterize him as being anything more than when he was a college i was as mr mitchell was of mr libby's first proposal after the second proposal he made typically made the comment i remember that it would be not appropriate for us to discuss these matters further with the attorney general is an example well it was because he felt that if anything ever happened eventually that he did not want to lead back to mr mitchell that's

correct when you've it's going to be a more specific justice mr dangerous times of mr lee's activism was campaign expenditures in this campaign cancelled so it was only in relation to the intelligence gathered i do think mr thompson it's not fair to characterize mr libby's that to me is what i will call a serious threat i did not but i'm more concerned about what mr robert green set visiting with relating to the intelligence that was it your opinion about them and they knew that there was a major consideration in a bugging operation

because he was at the second meeting where we preview and it reduces even further and respected to the three candidates in atlanta that situation that invasion an electronic surveillance operation going on in your testimony mr mm hmm supposedly the socal political expertise that the campaign is run the show and you an assassin number two man and yet you're not going to think this up you're the recipients of this plant and it's being presented to correlate as an individual who have made this threat to use an individual's capable of coming up with the kidnappings game about range being a god who gives away six foot buffer zone himself

who shoots out lives you know with open headquarters this kind of an event my question really was going to israel it was his private mr liddy was basically the father would have these ideas and i think it's appropriate this point to indicate that mr mitchell at that point i was under tremendous stress he had just gone through the itt hearings was a tremendous amount of detail that he was trying to catch up with him and as that characterizes decision it was of what i call stole a decision like i personally am and have now have tremendous respect for mr mitchell he treated me extremely well and with tremendous leaders are germans deliver and i have not changed my opinion because of this i think he was under pressure was one of these things that he he said you know let's go find a jean and i think that necessary mitchell before

he major for truth was close and you won't have to go through as an wasn't response he indicated to me that he would not he would not be able to go that way and then he would have to go the other way and i said i understood and he said he understood my position which we talk and i watched him cry as i understand it left bain was more or less rulers onto too happy with your story to the grand jury and the cover was on the cover and when things got kind of hot so to speak he first was suggested that he be eliminated from the first meeting when we talk about it meetings after the second grand jury appearance just before my third grader gus question was who attended the meetings at my calendar said mr liddy mr mitchell mr dean i was getting suggested that maybe he didn't attend these meetings i indicated that

that would work because too many other people were aware of the president's course oh yeah meaning just in the persons that was something we thought we had an abuse at the end of the defense well that's when i did become concerned analysis are all guys i felt the possibility of things were being set up as so the supporters and myself with a year and this summer meeting was the suggestion there that he really didn't know about the regions that his attitude was such that after that lead me where he is not cincinnati katie was just about one what do you have that might be is

an historian stuart and yes i think that's correct about the up well it was a weekend that would be the weekend on the first weekend in april and he was set up there as i understand it two to compile for the president the actual facts of watergate i gather he did not we did not i did not ever talk to cripple it was needed after he came back from that trip to tell you about the meeting you understand that the camp david pall over the whole incident camp david was a r i saw it immediately after it came down on wednesday the ones that i met with mr mitchell mr haldeman and mr mitchell and i met with mr dean later that afternoon if you refer to it again at that time to be indicated that he could not

not going with your story it indicated that he had not made up his mind yet which way he would go on and then that worked at that a great concert piano take the fifth there's trouble might be that if you went with you that that might be inconsistent with what for camp david report which would give them further as i understand it he did not make a report that indicates that denise her like it's just that you can't report this morning but that you're supposed to say that but that was told at the smithsonian twenty four and to previous levels of them made to the executive session of reluctant

oil question for you and i can read a better answer was well mr poitier when its huge question and the answer was well mr mitchell basically told him the facts were you talking about this case other people people are not all we ever indicate that mr mitchell and i worked in all we indicated the other parameters but we did not indicate our involvement and i think this morning in my testimony i want to make sure that was clear that we didn't indicate armed robbery indicated there was a problem in an operation that that was something we were we did not going to great

detail with mr stanzas to the us the the operation was not a long involved especially on the operation the problem with <unk> which is what he was concerned about and he was out there to try to find out what about these two people you know so i have a clear understanding of what you're sad reveries world mr mitchell basically told him that's right what are the facts although the watergate happened that it was an operation that got out about an effect is you tell an event the mezzanine level and this to the minister lewin you a consultant mr levy on a plan to break into the watergate dragnet that coming up but the facts about so watergate as it related to mr levy being a target and one that we thought would be terminated so that we were having problems with low so we discuss

the watergate in that context now and assumptions throughout these discussions was that it was operation not say that we did we never made an impression that it was an operation i want to be very careful because i think mr stand testified very directly on that and i think my response i think should be as best directors this was they also include senator that in that thirty second session we were reaching the end of the second session we're moving on very quickly and we very quickly as eugene we didn't say that and implicit in those problem for mr g

gordon liddy and so you should be aware that he probably is going to have to be terminated a potentially of not so pleasant mr mitchell and i was in mississippi mr martin and that time would limit anymore to me step out of the office of mr mitchell's request the renovations was arrested when a discussion as to the possibility of using cia involvement it was awesome you know this was again those last series immediately went on to record of months where there were meetings on an almost daily basis on this yes

i came back and you can hear the time and yet for the time and know before after june twenty third best model of disgust of material a day it would seem to me would have been after that i would not like to have these were very free flowing type of discussions in it i can't recall a context and i did not participate in most of these discussions about a participant no i do not care for when you said that you knew that you were in trouble when you know that most reason i think i'm set your committee anyway i was in i

was working he was critical of from that and you said this was my own view is that we were able to convince the prosecutors or if they sing in a way would not it is positive response thousands but if you test first of this is that an advantage the pictures that used as stand that they did receive this money with you that's right and it is a misunderstanding it was not a direct conflict i did not ask him directly in that sense

of self i suggested that you better do something about his own problems can be helpful that was very helpful the problem is not a problem that was on the money on on the fifty three hundred dollars only time i mentioned that he may have to solve his problem by not telling truth in effect was twenty we talk about the fifty three hundred dollars i was about seventeen so we disagree on this but it was not i did not that i'm going to do anything but coming up a figure was now i like ike i have been kept saying it isn't the figure a little lower because i thought it was more i did not want to lower the bar but i did not believe that under ninety nine thousand to this day there is money that has not been

expanded from that other ninety nine you feel like to some people like a lot again that's an assumption and prefer not making i cannot knowingly figures of the us attorneys office come up with come up with columns mr lewis yeah you've got more than one hundred and fifty dollars well yes no question

question was that meeting about about what that question is that witnesses then ask you about that ruling where he denies any estimation wanted to have the question is when you did and this operation is question this commitment that they're going to make us think that real good question did you corroborate that that you'd make a statement yes i was because when you

question that the discussion come out of this and that is why you want to win this move in effect what was one o question want without wanting this movie yes question actually was sitting on top of one question remains it is a thing but instead say that all of the i think he was satisfied that he knew what had happened in that for them was able to go back through the money it was made in relation this is known as we want them and they would end with a clip i think that if it's just what i've said that there was mr sloan was not forthcoming with us about how much money had been this first semester living and we were interested in the what

we went through this snow into july with this trip is and that this to this day oh i think it is we was as an actor and a new solo the solo is now correct an operation which we mentioned that yes that's correct but in fairness mr stanek we did not say mr mitchell and i can lead this operation we said it was one of our operations that have been found but you said it was your operation an operation

that direct question to john dean prepare you for your grand jury testimony on august sixteenth yes and when the operation took place well and we discussed it over weeks with the attorneys but we spent two hours on the morning before i had an informal session with prosecutors where he interrogated that gerrit you know the words what he expected them to interrogate omar mr dean of boston that's correct and where the state weighs in his office at the white house and the white house are on our listeners raises the debate between june seventeen

and i also think that's why would you say that mccain was conducting an investigation i think there was no never an investigation yes sir ahmed stands thing really is terribly important not only from the standpoint of your testimony and the facts that this committee well if i was a foreign minister stands i would rather expect our make sure i understand what you're saying so that i can compare it against the testimony mr stance has given us and married in the future against the testimony that mr michel welcome a transcript says that you told mr spencer thought this is the transcript of your interview before that you're an artist

and now i already asked you if you'd told of mr stands that you plan land and worst possible for the unlawful entry into the democratic national headquarters of the watergate complex digital mr stenson no we did not detail mr stands that you were then planning an intended to implement and untruthful story to try to cover it up absolutely not what exactly what did you tell him i think just like the center of an asset is that an operation that we had knowledge of got fouled up something to that effect that visibility was his general counsel was involves knowledge and that we would turn against libby at that we were having difficulty with <unk> <unk> discussing with us

in any legitimate and how much money and be given initially it was important for us to know how much money was given to mr libby and i think that's the general context it was a meeting that more no more than ten minutes it was a year ago i think it's very difficult to recall specifically the specific statements made by participants and needed this kind of the general context was with because mr stanza come up i think because mr sloan instead they're going to be a tough time mobsters can you go up and see what you can do for me and we in effectiveness especially down in and assist us with it is that is in a sense that no white house

employee was allowed to move over to the committee reelect without prior approval which in a sense was a negative approval we let <unk> know that we were contemplating hiring this year liddy through mr dean there was souring discrepancies in discussions with another system astronomers when that were straightened out in fact that led to a memo which i said to mr haldeman explaining all of the individuals who have been hired from the white house and at what's our hands on this truly is included in that memo so mr rosenbaum consultant salaries out when mr liddy told mr mitchell and you have to go on already against on fire out with him and said that and he said that he was going to correct the majority to say no don't do it now isn't it true also that you did you get mr auer some information that you've received information from

somebody in the number of informal discussions with him i indicated that we would had information forthcoming and that he worked with mr spanton was again the conduit we probably be able to provide them mr colson is you know headed out this what's euphemistically called the attack and this was that i was referring to the gem stone but to be fair and i didn't say this was a gent on information coming from our caps now did you have any moment yes this was a type of discussion we had with the number of the employees that were being questioned by the us attorney's office are generally speaking was just that we hope that they would do nothing that would affect the president's election type of discussion of whether people be discussed with the other armenian other people more detail facts about what to say to you when you have that when he

indicated that there would be no problem with her testimony reporters the middle and then i think there was that other individuals who are more directly involved or more directly involved with and talking with people respect of witnesses i think i probably did mention as we have when we found out that we were not there are you know you want you look at the course on the fun and tell us what he told you well he simply told me he was parceling out the cash in effect look at my specific well i really can't because he only direct reference was when i would get i know somebody could make a drop for him to one of the defendants in miami so he didn't go into detail as to how he was doing it so it's very difficult for me to be more specific detail you is getting the money i think it was some reference to the three hundred and fifty thousand dollars from a rhetoric that

was in the states it was casanova mr haldeman and mr vaughan and then transferred back that was taken from this third man factor so tell me when <unk> pakistan one of the receipt mr russo the receipts i'm assistant just give the money and money from the white house to most of the room now you said that you were at a point where when the question of the cover up was to be that you were ready to sell it to resign you said that it i suggested and as promptly as a secondary alternative i was there was that well i think it was picked up for prime time and i think it was serious discussion of little who had decided not to work yesterday or tell me that they did not accept violence in the true that mr solomon told you that the president wanted me to stay on yes that's correct and mr altman told me when mr mcgregor became campaign director at one of the

display on his deputy campaign actually that's correct is it true that there was some discussion that there might be some mr dean about that subject up and as bauer was fb