1973 Watergate Hearings; 1973-06-14; Part 4 of 6

it's b joyce reports so i'm standing at two coves colson special counsel that the president was not legal position where is mr deans role as counsel to the president which was a legal position you testified this morning that he uses in a lot of when an execution in the us are not what extent was just a caution and law by only through telephone conversations with me and some references to that matter his assistant we did not discuss

specific watergate the wiretapping representative not with mr golson other than his admonition and lead to affect get on the stick and get them ready project approved we get information from this program there's something to that effect testified he had immediate execution for an alligator yes yes or not to what extent was the most mondays i never had a discussion you have no personal knowledge of is is now to what extent then simple poem i know before people before june seventeen as chairman finance committee and being aware of texas' persons were being made on june twenty four years on the saturday we did meet and discuss the watergate the problem with him and my best

recollection is we didn't go into specifics of mr mitchell and i were involved but that simply that the ad was involved and we thought there were problems it would create a situation where mr stan would probably eventually have to turn it is true that there were problems to slaughter has to be lots of money dealing with business now witnesses and then when he came back and was just dazzled to talk with him and tried to have him with us as to the amount of funds that were dispersed minister we did not know at that time that we voted on a thousand had been dispersed in the earlier we thought it was much less than that you know armenia

that often even the plan an asian fusion cover of other officials saturday long ago we are yes mr riyadh have no desire for you to agree with you know when it had not been helpful named a new estate portal in cross examination i think we're covered officials fairly comprehensive you testified to ask law and discuss payments do you found one saudi prince of executive clemency and return to silence and this man you're white house staffer says to the president sure they're select committee and the american people believe that you can count on receiving these logs from the administration and the administration have the ability and as i

live in these promises in return for new fusion energy gets a face move by true well senator by this time of course i was aware of the fact that we were doing some of that activity already in other words by that time we had already supported seven defendants you have some executive clemency issue and obviously no and in executive clemency so that's pure speculation on all our parts as far as i know because the people who stayed you a new president this is specifically mustard being on one afternoon before the august sixteen grand jury says came into my office in indicating me that everybody knew how well i was doing it not to worry that even if the worst happen

everything would be taken care including executive announced it has a pr attempt on his part to make sure i felt comfortable about my forthcoming appearance before the grand jury i was not very comfortable about it obviously i think he was those individuals mentioned separately my recollection is one meeting i was used to being alone and down with mr mitchell just in march of that year review conversation what did he say he was very he

had a few and he couldn't speak for the president of the others were not say that we're not speaking the president even has to make sure that there was in la residents may not when they have a conversation from long time as to whether or not the president knew about this situation i just don't can recall discussions where we discuss that specific subject i think we all were very careful about where people work for me to not discuss the watergate and it's true vocation as you know out on the stroll industries are already testified that i did not tell them i told them everything was it was ok purposely so that they would not become implicated in our courts would it spread to other people in a committee or outsider

so our discussions were very limited in that sense now as a wrong step says that president mubarak may of the white house staff chain of command decision making process is when you testified mr mitchell is once again planting cover up the list although a private consultant leading daily on the issues is that must admit was the way in through your constant communications are wary of meetings with him in january nineteen hundred seventy three and that is true and i'm involved in american plan but

must combat president president council provided money for these activities visit to a conclusion is a reasonable man in your position that the water on the bacon and completely isolated by their eyes closed his aides and friends without his own because i didn't look white house because i am very familiar with this vast as it exists on his writer is very easy for me to see him now he would not have been aware of almost all the work that was done by the keys that he was actually lived and then passed on to the mistral an idea and just go so many things occurred in the white house that he did not or was not aware of it was just the way that system work

so i know for calling leaving for sure which route sailors understand it was just that was so completely remote been so isolated that this could have transpired without his knowledge approval thank you mr chairman i think almost all of your knowledge of incompetence mcgruder and i'm only going to try to bring out some of those mothers need a little application let's begin at the beginning on january twenty seven meeting him as mitchell's office it is the numbers suggest so when mr liddy

indicated to me that he was ready to make a presentation that was so full month after he had indicated many of these million dollar project in the works i scheduled to meet advisors to take place and the soul subject of the meeting was a discussion with libya's intelligence was our colleague amy to discuss the new election law which was not ready to be passed by the senate the house the following week cause i understand why mr michel was that it was going to head up a campaign and you the deputy director olivia cortes is making a presentation that wine has to be as me in so many animals too well he had worked from this vigil before he was one of the people at the white house worked very closely with the us you brought this truly to the committee i can't specifically

recall it moves have to come to that i would assume that i just as soon we should be there because it was part of his own party is the area of concern concerned with a specific subject to meet the parents then he was included because you know about mr libby's role to be played only intelligence across the word so rather bizarre activities disgusted that meeting and as i understand it you didn't know mr strong all about most of the kidnappings so the first

meetings i'm john ydstie i mean i would simply disgusting and many other things find a much more comprehensive and i think the other thing he was many things in it principal point yes

yes this is was there ever any reaction from the stronger after presumably he made his reporting on really knows whether it didn't nobody reported this withdrawal it had to get back to you reaction my indications from whatever decision has been the germans acceptable to the white house on that that was the message that most strong text that the message i don't want to say it was after that first meeting already secondly but that was the general context because because of the sensitivity of it but i personally felt that we should be sure that they were aware of their seriousness of that project and in this context of the reporter

who did he mention if at all that he was reporting he only reporter mr holmes and you assume of course that he was reporting from west a hole in that professors you mentioned in one of the missions of this committees to look into all of the irregularities in the nineteen seventy two presidential campaign and republican and dumber you mentioned this morning one of the reasons because of this big kickbacks situation of the democratic convention that you know elaborate it now what did you learn about this and what did you know about it at a newsman and so there was something of interest in the region

along with democratic convention that would be a business exposition and that he said this is this expedition was a set up democratic party officials are growing businesses with the exhibition requesting in the business thinks basic the sex position business will then take the space and jay let's take the figures that ten thousand dollars which five iss expedition companies putting on an exhibition of the other five democratic party insist it's so special then received from the detail roche your private business exposition company on that subject and that we have to mr liddy at first to take a look at the

situation and he went out of my hand and threw some manner was able to record a telephone conversation his farm and a member of the democratic national committee that telephone conversation further indicated the yes there was this kid that situation because of that phone message and because of this information we receive we thought this would be a different situation for those caterpillars exposition company senator i cannot remember the name i'm afraid that are used to eliminate the documents after the june sixty lincoln i'm afraid that all of that material with you

i don't know he had a democratic national committee headquarters a small portion and an actor as a businessman i see this was maybe this was the names of the people in the final phone calls send it i don't recall the individual investor who believe that it you know was any individual he and hire me said was a businessman and had a rental company so was that there was a legitimate call you it was the individuals or the senator who was in charge of the set up of the democratic national convention in miami and i think he had an office in washington i cannot recall a name specifically but

he was a key member of the democratic national committee if we found the names you think you would recognize that i think so senator was a man that i knew of or at her as you mentioned in your testimony this morning besides the plant ahead of the democratic national committee headquarters that you're going to do that in the offices of democratic candidates providing was enough money left the hallway any specific democratic candidate's name he was also a presidential candidate first i should say was going to be

probably generally true in accordance with the exception of course i think that it's true that i never came to our headquarters the only other person i think is testifying at these important working on this was sour harmony who did it and while i don't think anyone else in this role the meeting new chairman john mitchell department following returned from california who call let me let you go well they were coming back from california and because of the events of the previous week i think the pope senator edward tierney temporarily halts its questioning of

jeb magruder as committee members leave for a floor vote in the senate on a section of the state department authorization bill and he will resume his questioning when they return public television's complete coverage of the watergate continues after a station identification on average coverage of these hearings is provided as a public service of the member stations of pbs and public broadcasting service the fb

terry and pike continues its coverage of hearings by the senate select committee on presidential campaign activities

you again correspondent robert mcneil so they're getting out resumes is questioning the deputy director of the nineteen seventy two presidential campaign the patient so anyway

los angeles you mentioned this is a war mr michel in new york i'm sorry senator i met first with mr mitchell is the whole semester on indicated since there was controversy over the tunisian vendor in february in muscatine mr mitchell i should settle those differences together and we met them that afternoon at the white house to discuss that's me wooden indicate any position that he was going to take a month for hours in your

testimony threat that or would you have a father i felt rather strongly since the three of us had agreed on the position that i would take which in effect testified at the grand jury incorrectly that that that i would've of course that they would support the position that we all agreed on a mr mitchell good agreement he could support that i think my generation's mr dean indicated effectively problems for him and wanted us to discuss it at a later date later date of my recollection is i asked my attorneys by this time i've been retained counsel my counsel indicated that he had talked with their counsel with <unk> council and the city council recently said that your client has a problem of course i was going where i have a problem and so i think

you know by the time i realized it was between physician was going to be different than the one i had testified that book could you tell us a little more of how he indicated that he was uncertain about his position that weekend before and i'm writing this report but the report that was supposedly going to be written that i guess was not written had just come back and said that he just wasn't in a position at that time to make a decision on this matter had to have further consultation and i think i don't think you've said with who believes that he was going to discuss this matter further and think about it further just hadn't made up his mind samer let me say at the same time i have the same kind of discussion was distraught over the needs we had the day of the altercation and i said you know are you going to support that series

or that meeting we haven't included in the same kind of difficulty that he wasn't sure didn't know of course by this time i wasn't quite aware that the key participants were starting change their situation again they're referred to them as the beans physician an attitude of mind you mentioned that you had meetings with him from time to time and he started to figure that's an important advance in the things that you would have on watergate would you describe those more for why i think that there is one occasion that it probably was a specific thing we were quite closely together at the white house members of the committee we would discuss various aspects of the case and on this occasion and i think that in retrospect now i realize i think it was for conversations

probably in january early january december it was before parliament elected in december was when you think you know how the watergate had ever been planted don't you remember i became concerned the course of that conversation because obviously somebody was being set up were there any other occasions when he gave an indication of faulty memory that you can remember nothing and they're not a specific reference to the same extent that one meeting happened that the vet key biscayne meeting with mr michel michel roux you mentioned the delay the plan was intemperate and full circle yes

i've destroyed all the copies imagine also forced these reports which made from time to time to muster strong i suppose you're important to him on the occasion of the first entry of the democrat national importance yes do you recall again any reaction back from him after he made his report to i suppose no because i think at that time we were simply waiting for the results of that entry you have presenters i recall when you got your appointment on yesterday's news maybe ever come back do you have any reaction from them who he reported to a lot of i can't say that he came back with a reaction from someone he reported two it did come back with a reaction that mr libby was not to be involving himself in

these activities he was securities testimony is indicative of the man who made the cover up violence would somebody call tolling you know telling no sir no question you were in the white house call from october of nineteen sixty nine so what may of nineteen seventy one of course you yes it is i have to say that you were on a staff level about the same level as mr dane yes we were i was a special assistant to the president and we were what i would call the second level

appointees in the white house and maybe have five or seven assistance to the president did you see the president on many occasions during your terminal are not on many occasions i signed periodic we mainly in meetings with other people you assume oh no sir you always on somebody else's professor was that his novel way to carry on business in the white house absolutely we run a surprise to hear the report the other day that was the museum of provocations recently yes i was not have been in the normal pattern their inclusion has become the committee took a pause world floor will involve the

state department authorization bill as the members return magruder answer to question but florida senator edward kennedy about the sponsorship of the miami beach business exposition yes it finishes its chairman of mr roeder operate this morning us state that first meeting with mr mitchell occurred of justice with respect to watergate that may present yourself mr mitchell very nice lady

and that it wasn't as being made is that correct when evil for your eyes for you it is on this particular meeting with a budget request from the city for one million dollars yes sir that then all three of you expressed their shock or were appalled by either the somme or the approach to gain intelligence as an estimate well yes that's correct and then mr mitchell thank you

and bringing about a more conservative plan mr mitchell at that time indicated that he was mostly a virus trying to get some of the klan executed in the very near future right now sir i would not characterize as common sense without regard to test indicated that you can come back and show me something the other more conservative level he didn't indicate a positive or a negative desire he did indicate i think are distasteful and that was the first time as i understand your testimony that you had any inkling with respect to anything of the sort of nature occurring in the campaign are being planned for the campaign is that correct yes i think that would be

absolutely accurate i have expected something along the lines of what what i would consider more normal intelligence gathering which would be a receiving information from the candidates' headquarters through employees and that type of information which american see that and that's kind of a planet come for no sir i knew i was thirty you haven't even ekg you in december that they had certain qualifications to gather intelligence and asked you to find lt senter he did not ask you about over he had already been in effect hired by mr mitchell industry with his approval i was just there are going to be as director

superior told you that mr michel in fact just reading the commissioning mitchell about my recollection is i think i called his office and just check with the secretaries of that my understanding is was going to be used to be our general counsel and he confirmed that that was correct but he was not original conference yesterday was the general counsel mr mitchum indicate to you that he would be gathering some intelligence for being a crp i think probably in some point there in december we did generally disgusted you would be assuming some of those responsibilities but it was a very an indefinite type of situation at that time now let us going through and the other operations think we mentioned the watergate operation we've mentioned the mcgovern and order is and the interest is

are you aware of any other operations that were undertaken by mr liddy are under his auspices or direction he did other thing senator for us most of them were minor intelligence gathering work he worked on a number of demonstrations were there any regions involved no sir what kind of operations are you well we were requested to provide demonstrate his example for various lengths these requests with their usually come to me and i would simply refer the visibility because it was not a very particular interest in my case and i did not care to deal with these matters so i just referred to mr libby who normally work with individual who had requested that assistance where ewing completely

after you saw the land at an estimate of office were you and complete agreement with the project a planet the year the project has it that finally evolve after the subsequent death is i think that i have to say that i and at what point you i thought was just under early the next week i think that we can but i got i think i talked to actually why wasn't your testimony this morning that said before anything like this was taken out that you would give advance notice and memorandums to illustrate he had received know what the

decision was when he received the procedure was for him to receive a copy of the memoranda the discussion mr madge garland mr mitchell make a decision i would call him and say here are the decisions on those memoranda this gave them an opportunity in the intervening time if you wanted to have some comments while he could get an instrument to recreate comment before mr mitchell of legislation well did you assume that any time in your meeting with the estimates show that you have the facts you have supplied mr strong with these memoranda that somebody in the white house had approved to be perfectly clear mr mitchell on our budgetary activities in all political activities at the campaign committee mr hall and work with him if there were things that he may have disagreed with it with his guys strom

they were for mr haldeman spent a fifth and he could then commented mr mitchell myself if he felt that it was appropriate if he disagreed with you say that any political activities and i think the grand jury and is it your testimony that he would have communicated they a disagreement out to mr mitchell before the final approval he could if he did not agree with that and to mr mitchell before or after it would not necessarily be a pattern economist michel different occasions well and you're understanding

their strong that that was yesterday sister was not necessarily against the regime and among would be translated normally if he had the discretion working is a plant senator i think i can i think that's unfair to say that he knew about it because i don't know that i did pass it was just gone and i think it's reasonable then he would have that kind of comment mr mitchell i think it's unfair for me to make a statement that i have no direct not worried now many

of these lands from before january twenty seven when the first meeting occurred up until march thirtieth when damian key biscayne kurd and a final plan was approved he had always done well and i wouldn't you assume it with one hand it's international it is absolutely clear that's his question specifically comment on the right approval of these plans or even knowledge on this problem i do not know that he knew of these plans before i only know that i disgusted and said the copies and when you started the practice of sending weapons to mr strong it was your understanding of these copies were destined to maestro oh

it was my understanding that what he just thought being important for mr goldman's decision and sir would you save if you are acquainted with most of these projects that they're especially those on which i have known as gemstone well specifically watergate break in as i was specifically aware that i did you have anything with respect to the woman my recollection of groovy one and will be to restore the code names i think that mr libby used for the various labs that's right

i i didn't pay any attention to the names have all been interesting to have an eleven and a huge i mean your respect these names well when these documents came in those names were in the documents and i i just can't recall and what context they were in the dock in my recollection was i thought that they were the positioning that wouldn't identify where that was that was what i thought that i liked i would not get i couldn't verify that i think that's my recollection of what will be one of the two and crystal meth you mean to tell me that you didn't read the documents that we're going to the gm plant martin says her as i read the documents but that the de jager the giant mr hughes was not interested actually senator allen read the documents once be useless i did not read them again well if you want to venture to my recollection was a individual who was

frequently live been set up before mr liddy came in the world after being reprimanded after and that was simply as i understood it i think it does go on for you was passing information to i just i don't know who's a venture was he wrote one extensive report that i think has the border alluded to unfreeze campaign in philadelphia you really good also in testimony you're forgiven that you always assume that when mr dean actor that he had authority either from mr haldeman for mr alan rickman i think so and i said that is not a reporting relationship was either between this trial i do not know specifically in every case whether he was acting in there with you and to believe that because he was employed at the white house under these three gentlemen that he was acting alone in their path for the

senate general and joe sestak i didn't want to take it apart it needs to be hand and then forcing the plan for the cover now get me the different stages of the plan to me the variations from the initial plan and now a political cover story today i put a cover up one is taking care of the defense of my knowledge of that is very limited solely that i am asking where they going to be taken care of mr dean mr mitchell indicated they were ruins indicated he had involvement in that area i just so i don't i can't speak to specific about the model i myself was prison we said that we didn't realize that we had to come up with a

reason why we haven't spent two hundred and fifty thousand dollars for illegal activities from esther let go i don't have that head and responsibilities work for me to try to figure out how long the story that would sound legitimate that would cover this two hundred and fifty thousand dollars if you were in this combat to what exactly was done by you or others under the crp with respect to getting these defendants together culminating in there pleading guilty or being tracked was anything positive done with respect to the senator on defense i am unaware of these specific activities have to get the ring to fight other individuals all i was aware of that they would be taken care and mr dean as jim mitchell in this room were aware that in kenya after the great things important note that

i was asked and told to go back and run the committee and not worry about what any case other than how likely to say specifically in the country so i did not involve myself in any of the details of making sure that the defendant's were kept in so i don't know if you had a new law personal connection with that kind of involvement do you have any knowledge as the school was the engineer for getting these defendants together and keeping them together senator to the best of my knowledge this was a mr deans and mr i think it's inappropriate for me to say who's it was specifically i know that mr demers to michel roux specifically working on this problem of each of them having a different roles i don't think mr mitchell played any operational role i know

mr rew it handled funds and i don't know specifically how much history being directly involved with it the defendants and their lawyers might simply do not know the details of the union of movie disbursement of any funds <unk> or anyone else for years by the defendant so i had no i had no knowledge of the funds until at the newspaper accounts leslie on one occasion and probably in january what did i know somebody who could make a drop for him and i suggested mr porter is a potential person to do that in the next days ago never mind we don't need anybody to make a profit and who was offering the defendants executive clemency i do not no service well gauging information come to you or not

as i've indicated before in my life or i testified before the grinder the second time i was concerned about my own situation since i was the target for the grinder and so i asked the individuals <unk> mr mitchell specifically and secondly but i can say i think i was quite relieved when was the first time to talk to mr palmer about being watered it was the sunday after the break how many more times did you talk to me about that oh well i might i think we had a number of meetings during the campaign where we discussed how he would handle the watergate as a public relations issue mr mcgregor china's press conferences of

song with this issue and i can remember a number of conversations that i had all of the conversations at the white house i had some of the white house cancer or any other persons present it as kind of like mr like chicken mr richard moore other people working i would call a general public relations area but we were talking only about how he should be handled from our committee and there was some and witnesses that they're in and witnessed or have to press inquiries at this time many newspapers were very active in pressing this issue and we were trying to respond to the you know well if you were talking to that objective in mind it necessarily followers that you had to lay all the sordid details on top of the table so that you could write a consensus approach clark

yesterday said it evidently was told a story and that is absolutely correct we didn't there was no involvement by any individuals and that and literally we told that story to every individual it was not connected directly with beauty originality or the cover and mr mcgregor believe that i think are fully i think to other people at the white house politically active they believe that mr libby would be the only one and all and they had also say to you and to work on of course mr mcgregor as an example i was completely in the dark how many teenagers do

in january the truth acted out we remember the public relations aspects of that the press activities during the campaign do you remember this then you have enabled me review emerges and down the crt and then you know the things the order that their secrets he was out and nine a soldier or a vet and now who participated at this white house

meeting in april when his decision was made all communicated to you back on the wednesday before i think was wednesday night almost all thought i think this conversation the state mr dickey who was a sister mara i have no specific problems and that is very difficult for me to continue my position on this that could you ask for any instructions that i should have it would be beneficial to them and i said yes want to know the president wants you to tell the truth and then of course he wanted to tell truthfully and natural leavens president energy and that you see to take the advice of your lawyers the us attorney's office on saturday i met with us in the morning

mr coll my attorney's office and asked me if i would come to his office to us attorneys and writers agree that that would be appropriate courteous as we might like to attorneys and myself went to mr wynn's office and in fact the conversation was now with the us attorney's office but was <unk> calling us our call for mr ryan they collect that it might have been mr holland says it was one of their assistants asking what i mean with mr did you talk to mr eagleman yes or ah from the us attorney's office or my attorneys office with us attorneys and we went from my attorney's office to the white house and that investor opens office in the white house

was any of us attorneys basically said the president watching television marti gun and wishes you well something that time as people are testifying before the committee and also in the statement that you had told him that you had committed perjury trial now is that true i think that twelve was a figure of speech i learned since become pretty expert in matters of these kinds of that country's committed each time you tell a story not the same story in other words if you tell the same story and time just ten counts of perjury i think i've told michael and incorrect story quite a number of times so consequently i indicated to him that i had committed perjury twelve

times not meet well specifically butt me quite a few times recognize the same thing yes sir frederick and again in front of a sign that there is so going back to the sequences there were quite a few variations few changes made in the cover up where they're not as the exigencies ries well we had to move very quickly before the fbi activist for myself on the basic framework once the fbi documents we have a pretty well stay with that story we make some changes and but basically the coverage certainly used was was developing for interviews with the fbi where he used to cover up story before the grand jury and then during the trial is correct that's correct

well being part of a cover up no i would not ever on executive privilege because as i understood that it was not all of what did they discuss it as a shelter for themselves you know and that's no excuse news analyst the email mentioned a couple of times that that might be an approaching like a yes that would be the only one i can remember in the game now what specific mr dean and the cover well senator he was one of the people that dealt with this

situation and dealt with me directly dealt with mr mitchell dealt with mr rew has to masters of the cover story was obviously the easiest part they're taking care of the handling of the defendants was what was most difficult and my understanding from him and from others was that he was involved in all aspects of this cover up and as i gather from the other activities that i was not aware of involving the fbi cia and so i was not aware of now you've been waiting for their crp are the inaugural committee election became executive director and when you do and

for the inaugural committee to continue paying you the commerce department the other consultants all i did announce a small our inaugural committee which i was reimbursed for private sector i don't know this isn't and i have no idea well mr miller i believe that you have to go very very complete story of an even i believe you have comported herself in an honorable fashion before this committee i want to say and the tragedy of watergate is that it has affected many fine young man who dedicated himself to president and it has affected their families more

now after this final question doesn't to me you know after all this to be used by and devotion to duty is doing your own music let me just say that i have had to take the narrative that this is certainly a very unfortunate period in my life i'm not going to let in just one day i have a wonderful wife four children fb the