1973 Watergate Hearings; 1973-08-02; Part 3 of 6

it's b and i believe it was on the payroll and some of the cia was say an employer or youtube war i believe it was that employees what we call and i can see it through shortly after june seventeenth nineteen seventy two no idea of the retired and went to work there and watching somebody else and you return some time in nineteen seventy sixty to sixty five disability those are near retirement because the musicians do and action and developers the rollout

soon connection was an accident and i believe he was looking for not to make more money than they could with them mr liddy and learn what the cia or any connection with a vote that having any connection with i thought was very dangerous to have to watch myself i was never aware of a connection and whenever inquiry whether lady had any relationship to the cia oh yeah i'm not really trying to just every so much that he did or did not have a relationship as i am trying to play but then or someone connected with the investigation the watergate subsequent seventy i was never aware of it in what about liz's mom somewhere in the maze of my recollection are

could we can stop the actual scenes that start with that one time before she married him or something i'm not sure of speculation that the effect that moses was very closely and all the cia possibly disappear and her husband nester unity inside in the day now will it has been that there is just one mr

barclay to testify that even some relationship to the cia but that was a contractual relationship and i believe it was in the early sixties during the time of the great deal of activity in fargo were cuban operations i believe he was terminated in the middle sixties and i totally ruining your relationship with juno or no sturgis as the employer wants them to the cia thing file since owner baker's the year in testimony hadn't classified the idea one forward seven for the senate foreign relations committee which i discussed some of these gentlemen and i was much better up to speak about their relationships that time that i have now and you would have been consoling that record i would accept as chairman there's propose something that the testimony of those witnesses and others bore the committee on foreign relations

i'll take that on may seventeenth nineteen seventy three march six nineteen seventy three and committee on appropriations on may sixteenth nineteen seventy three and there's one other which ones on february seventh nineteen seventy three be incorporated in the fallen records of the committee with leave the committee decide what portions of that perhaps the answer is for the record mr marti this work did you know mr martin see the only one who has taken out that there are seventy more numbers on the i guess the answer's yes ms martinez

here and i'll go through the operation may or you make a comment on the matter an issue on july seventh nineteen seventy one general question receiving call advising a former cia employee banana security all this information was passed on my gosh when do you i know automotive the agency that a former employee of the cia had been added to the white house it

was clear that someone at the white house knew that this man was a former cia and on july twenty seconds or in their information that's understandably based on a summary of your interview wednesday july twenty one is the general ashton and request of the agency the cia permission with the identification documents and aviation and visit those guys are you know where the recording that meeting and they were so obvious mr cheerio and foreign ministers somewhat later because in my memory

security agency donors the oversimplification documents and eighteen years and as it was five years most common event announced several occasions not met with cia people who receive other alias documentation specifically the name of edward joseph war spies material which i believe it included wait speech operation i've read some others are devoutly wished for and the typewriter keys abba cia and cia supplying them and this post at the time when you were known as former cia agent was going to work they were there as mr liddy president

more than one of these meetings and received similar businesses in is that when patients especially in the nine hundred restaurants request for baker i don't know going to receive this information information in here people isn't this nice i believe in a georgia winter and i understand the name of georgia's leonard together would be documentation was why i see it mr spencer well my point was that at the time he was not identified i believe that the cia was that libby was the i'm not sure i didn't think he was a rare my god my notes indicate hearing that mr libby at the request of mr and at his

documentation for me honestly yeah and this time the white house had served notice on sea i was coming here for almost twenty four years and delivered the cia we don't want it taken for development and it was in the cia and has since learned that info that occurred when the cia delivered those negatives to mr bach and get copies of the prints and negatives in the cia when i was i don't know puppies events from firsthand an informant not be accurate i had thought that when the film was developed to fill the developer was returned past the cones themselves engage retailers and service their eyes of the voters the

negative is that still in the possession of the agency actually french for their ox carts iraq's so the record only in the interest of precision because photographs that opens their oxygen atmosphere is the original prince and i agree with you they certainly are not like one of those photographs we learn from another part of the record was a picture i believe that mr libby i'm fascinated by the rules work is that hackers which was rather graphic form and he owned one word but you are aware that some warm up photographing record probably a xeroxed copy of the veils or break and worked at the cia and the cia received on and develop the spirit of versailles that at that time nobody knew what these films represented i've been told that since raul some

modest amount a curiosity to see and i will pursue this process not what i'm reaching on august twenty the revived of increasing demands made by mr on sale which have been exceeded one increasing demands technical and other systems including the hearing then located in paris i don't know and the climate taylor

says thirty occasions on which you wrote happy a top official in nineteen seventy one we do not meet these requests we were restrained well that is an initial c i think

it is to work the initial are mr chairman this does not appear to be on the record but it's not what i asked that it be included outfitted with the narco mr holmes in the glare from a list that the cia at whatever level and new to some extent were aware of the fact that the political agent ah was deeply involved in white house activity with sea ice or that you know that was so after a great number of things that already are if we go to i certainly was totally unaware of any illegal activity and

improper activity or anything that would raise the question about the titans i know and the information was present a question of doing anything without a question illegal or improper ex i'll take your toes really the same way i do that this morning every other witnesses start with the assumption that case where the truth i have no reason to now unless other about their victory over and just like to hear but i don't suggest it and privately un to rather try to establish a relationship the white house or the cia base its perception here that cia might have been involved in these policy or the wire that

stirred fears that martinez got to send support stability that women's voice operating that got away we've got it and read about the job at the processing service for that we've got the certain elements of all these things we discussed between white house and cia and i wondered that the leaders of the idea that these people are caught that somebody would certainly say what was missing and now wilson of a ground invasion like for you and if you had thought processes that run through your mind that an arguable i simply a moment ago was not trying to make a self serving state assembly plant indicate that there's been a tendency it seems to me in the recent times two have everything in real time so all of these things were known to happen and therefore one should have the good sense to know this thing or that thing at a certain period of time and i simply was trying to point out that this was not the case

and accepting that they spent at the same token opponents trend that you don't think of these questions are accusatory certainly not new maybe not even a cia probably not even see a track established a set of facts wrong quick perceptions might or might not be based and secondly whether or not an inquiry should be made at the wrist and publicity people in foreign policy and i have not met in a way that very carefully examine only other evidence does the fabric twenty four est your vision of these very well reporters for this committee and other committee

as is information has been most helpful because the school has been forthright i really and forthcoming it may be the future gm will require other information from us as a very important post return to this point the director of the cia congratulations there's a lot of that now and as much as the oil lease of the hero one has to end though you're right you

were i can only assume this but i can't will the question he requested that the cia the cia given that this is a low

like you were you were do you know there was no information doesn't work there was no information about it but because it goes to this interview disguising

himself or someone else well maybe i'm fine mr chairman my problem here is that at the time that this was going on i do not recall having been told that he had been given a week in a voiceover narration device i found that out in may of this year is a lot of this is is that what however one and three years undercover work are what defines know animation is given to me at that time that we had some discussions around some observations on this right now

don't you think it would be reasonable for the rest of the month was engaged in something that it all the work of a war is certain now the home the same thing probably be true that mr libby was a nice sum of our material on the neighbors are out on his own mini during the same time i believe that's true now in the week that you stated that the new you one of the break in the review of i was here as a process of them are now on an american now that was a

breakthrough on this issue no question in june twenty thirteen john waters were questions about the white house to come to the white house was arrested and you have a conversation with the list of all among the electorate and ladybird about the possibility of that if the fbi investigations in mexico that it might fail with some of that evidence of busy i am

they did mention exactly what activity is they'll be out again in the mexico most of it not as implicit about mexican set out was german it is my recollection i can solicit my honest recollection of the first time i heard about any money or a czech going through mexico was later on the day of the twenty thirteen when you're a woman reported to me about that conversation with acting director gray in the afternoon in the afternoon i believe that that happened about an hour nap mr hall and as the gray had mentioned to john watson i recall but there was something about objects first something over eighty thousand dollars the vision of mexico for your

money well that they say anything below the same thing what specific matters the white house concern about the possibility of it that the fbi investigations might sound like a lot but that set up the cia no explanation was given the chairman and as i testified earlier this morning it was not possible for me to know everything that we are doing in mexico or what the fbi might be running into and i simply thought it was prudent to do some checking before i got certain who's now working for the cia although acting director cia has also the director and the deputy director of central intelligence for by statute presidential appointees incentive to devise an insensitive

and the same thing with the directives the fbi office i think that's i think that you know something fundamentally you had you know a while and this has the white house and had a conversation with mr paul mr diddley say expressed concern about the possibility of an fbi investigation in the mexico colliding with no real i'll leave you at sort of the old agents of the cia did receive a communication of elmo doll does a great actor director fbi these records that i believe that they spoke to him and their meeting about this i don't remember

an indication that you know the great thing about my mom in the dc area and so an investigation about these gentlemen i honestly don't remember that i believe that don't want to have the conversation lively will testify and he was the one with the vision to open them so leading cell phone call homer's great about this while my recollection ends i personally did not see it toyota wants to

talk about the conflicts i never talked about mexican checks i talked yesterday on the phone about this mexican lawyer oh no question but that was important you know in his meetings with mr gray that this great talk about that and that this really did end up as i recall this now it was this summer of in excess of eighty thousand dollars on a check but nobody ever explained to me at that time that this money was for how it got there are i am the cia actually looked through you also wanted to make it play out through all this great that they think that the fbi's investigation and to a lot of related to the next contract not an affair where the

cia was what we made it clear to mr gray was that if by any chance i ran into any of our operations there were to abide by our longtime understanding to notify us leo as vivian oh competency i don't know who's obsessive the reasons that raises us that and now the cia was a legacy item was the chairman when he was being called john waters and a wonderful natatorium in this debate and since i think that to some of the conversation that jonah was intimate of that why should he come down and talk with the united

states and you get all of this development in the world tests to talk to you and then was told me it reaches dramatically since they'd end up the request of the cia within forty five minutes mr trillin yeah these were feelers to find out if there was some ways there might do some reports that he was never requested to do and it will avert must have been made and four i was leaning way and with the cia the

ball i think and then almost setting they do it to make the wall let's see it and the rest of the eu referendum as if they could arrange cia probably forces arrested and one thing i had distinctly recollection why the stock so firmly in my mind i'm not sure it was on the second then this question of violence are it's interesting the ways the recession's monday tuesday wednesday of tuesday session now you will at home oh that's just for the cia so that when you act announced that

the songs that he says the cia is all of this customs agents about the money that's given to him by congress and a certain understanding fully appropriate appropriations committees in congress about what this money should be spent for it out of a handle nothing about this because we could thank you in the testimony you gave a poor and that the sun is that it was on espn committee i mean this is just the

human recollections and i realized that the three of these hearings i was told by some german this morning of people saying that i would forget this year i don't want to pretend to be any better or any worse than anyone else and my memory is fallible from time to time when i'm doing my best to all of these hearings too have you and analyze the conversation and reconstruct at this is not what was less than a minute in the reagan greece's ms burgos remembers you

know and people who have a copy reads a while when he's right and i think the more apt to be accurate that's what we hear that's exactly what there is the first of twenty seven captain matthew says that the fact that i think that the writing which was livable this is what can we do the prospects are still have been kept inside moccasin of the barge and it says the the gang of the jews the thirty eight words of the preferred that assignment as bill and that version of what was almost five

and it says that the time was this is a keg of the jews and then the gossip lately writing course of this package up to st jon have a portion of the same award is a semester at the king of the jews and so i believe that and have different versions of the same mind or is quite understand what you about another human beings have solo thing sometimes another thing i've noticed about you mad men is this that's on top you sometimes when something and we have no recollection of that certain things that an imam it does not tell us that certain other things

that but when we have the testimony of other people sometimes a bit about what that members become refresh and legs and within somewhere in my unconscious accomplished our members again and so i just was a huge thing because i don't think the fact that human beings don't recall conversations all seem all that work that line and i think to some of those tales from mo the observation level working get it so right with the cia employment context and without making the government might consider this

low wage workers you used the word preached at theaters itunes and on the white house wanted to realize that the white house was feeling you out about the possibility of using your agency has a cover up for what the watergate burglars when i used to senator inouye the word fevers i was describing when i understood with the way mr bean conductor the conversation with gemma watters which had to do with that whether that was a possibility but the agency provide covert fun vibe baile de than watergate

and also when they were convicted if current owners reportedly this was not a request i must be a sort of postulated what could be done under the circumstances and this is why i thought maybe a descriptive words and it would be the reverse forty percent of those suggestions prosecutor versus departure from business charlie crist crime functions occupations it would have been in any way a common problems that being the case the juju edition and why is the two senior members of the house and senate the chairman of the appropriations committee of thousands of them i didn't i don't recall having thought

that was an obligation i had at the time i thought that my job was to keep the agency that was my job and my business and to further that these conversations i were held in such a fashion that that was if i understood general warrant reportedly accurately to make the assertion that we've been asked to do this would've been denied this was the possibility of this being discussed but i don't want a lean heavily on that one lean heavily on the fact that i was trying to keep the agency clean and i didn't know this was i kept a suggestion in your mind was improper the improper thing would have been if we've done the usual brio success of us this listen to these years i don't recall

the conversations i was closing air when he came in and the agency had to do almost entirely with operational matters that in that interview that i want to do i'm now using transcripts of hearings of view that portion of transport literally all recollections of that meeting that's right not so much

i think that's that's what i think everybody can see the water was disgusted this make your recollection of those hearings earlier recollections of august just before the committee station oh because you've got a number of different statements and the positions of this and at the meeting one person is assigned to me by the president on the morning of the twenty thirteen twenty four in addition to ascertain whether there was any cia and wow

that's point number one whether there was any cia concern about earlier activities of people who have been arrested in the water at that point of entry was to tell the cia directors of the fbi have expressed concern that as to whether there was cia involvement or any intention now he elaborates on this but you know so many of the meeting that there was i had no cia involvement in the watergate operation inherent so inform director grace or learned that at that meeting i didn't know if i had to me now and here is what i like that the question on a store your question is we get into what he considered to be the man for withdrawal the cousin there seems to be a very difficult

point to get across because there were other items of concern the matter the question raised was not solely the question of whether the cia had been involved in the watergate break in but also whether the investigation of the watergate break in which was to be thorough and total could possibly impinge upon the activities totally unrelated to watergate and related to national security or the covert cia operations the activities of some of the individuals who would also been involved in the watergate and an arrest warrant because without what wes borge also whether the investigation of the watergate break in which the photo could possibly infringe upon the activities totally unrelated to watergate related to national security or covert cia operations now that means is is that is that the instruction that

you recall is that the subject matter that you recall the related from mr haldeman to general walters or seven different age and if so how i recall as i said earlier this morning that only some reference to the best things i'll refer to him as an incoherent reference because it was frankly in my recollection i don't know exactly what he already had in mind but i reacted to that question very firmly of the rail says the rubric for a very unhappy the cia over the years ever since which i like to do quickly for the simple reason that the bay of pigs with walls in silver

problems arising from would have been liquidated i was well aware of this and i didn't care what any investigation have to do with what they have basically gotten anybody involved with or without it or above it or below i didn't care i was trying to make his players on that occasion the fact that some of these people that broke into the watergate and at one time and that relationships with the agency and julie martinez do at the mountain top just a few days before that make any difference today than there was nothing that anybody was going to find out about investigating them was going to bother us as far as i was aware we then get down to the question of what an fbi investigation in mexico might turn up as i explained earlier i did not have in my head all of our operations but what was more important i didn't know why where the fbi was investigating in mexico i didn't know were there were following i didn't know what they were up to and so i regard as prudent inform myself a bit

about these things before i came down flat and they let the fbi investigated mexico donovan us operations because this my cases but what what then did mr hall no recollection of thrust what i understood mr holland decided general warrants was that he wanted him to speak acting director gray too restrain whatever investigation the fbi was conducted in mexico because it might ruin and certain cia operation center and i just explained to you why it was that i could not say on the spur of the moment they couldn't possibly so this isn't a white and also

like to mention here if you don't mind with something as a moment earlier that often the white house gets information about things that other people in the government not privy to the present and other people in the white house have a great many sources of information and i didn't know what they had on their mind about cia operations in mexico immediately with general walt jeremy discussion with general wants to the discussion which have taken place as i testified earlier i told him the one that i thought when i saw the guy a that we should point out that the limitation agreement between the fbi and the cia where an fbi investigations run the cia madison would have been to be reporting on the cia a cia operation on the fbi managed to report to the fbi and i thought this was all called this conversation with

mr gray it was a legitimate request that was made because i didn't know it was today was familiar with the city have been acting director for very long i was major general warrants familiar with it because you don't even the agency about six weeks or so so i want to be sure that they have these two relatively new people were not talking about what i thought were talking about what i thought were important legitimate things wouldn't be proper to say that you were comfortable with general walter is going to pat gray ruth what you indicated to me outside of a meeting and that you were an easy if he had gone to gen gray with what had been transmitted by mr paul and one last question when i have to go in the first round a

question as to where you thought you were being talked around minute meeting of the year twenty thirty and then and as you've testified in i gather that private you have in the independence of the cia the belief that you have in the trustee's imposed upon the director by the congress you usually don't hesitate to express those feelings of this committee and i barely don't hesitate to express an order you didn't hesitate to express and anybody else that was your director of the cia and you feel that this might have been one of the reasons why you were talking around at this meeting of the twenty thirteen well certainly that or do i have mixed emotions about this any sensible person i think would have wondered why i was not as to do this various interpretations i suppose could have been

thought up but the effect of the way it was handled within himself an unusual event and gemma watters i think it is because i'm self about this about the baby they're asking to do it because he was an army officer and is taking orders when the government a long time to just taking orders too so that i think one was forced to the conclusion that for some reason i thought it might carry out the instructions more precisely more fully than i might i just don't know i've never been co authored three questions sanders to your testimony mr investor was acquired with certainty when i don't recall what to say he was polite way but that it was not

used in the ellsberg org also the record this is the point i was trying to make that you read out to me a moment ago the apartment that he was given and i submit to you as a highly intelligent human being could you break into a building without a job i don't know the reason the idea with that whether other operations of the choir is an exotic spices you know these guys together i think this will be the kind of thing you would want if you were going to conduct an individual an interview with an individual whom you didn't want to recognize you we were under an assumed name for whatever purpose you

know we've heard testimony i believed the other witnesses that it's the practice of the cia in the event that one of their agents gets in trouble that the agency takes care of their family is that in fact for example there's now a public knowledge that just about me in this de facto working for the cia when they were captured arrested convicted and put them in china and then the parents they were in jail or salaries are paid this is a little narrow when they came out that what tiny piece of money to take care of them for whatever period of time they want to use it for i was a part of the founders of one of the answer yes yes i do i understand them trust of your testimony to be that the things i listed earlier about that we use yammer voice altering the bias

about the psychological profile possibly a number of other things are all done with the cia but that you learned of all or most of them much much later did you know someone there you see if you find my answer explained my recollection was that i heard about the tape recorder and the camera within the timeframe of july august nineteen seventy one is the weight of the other things that i did not remember having been told about that time and to this day the committee i've been away and so i have not had access to the newspaper's share of the full testimony before the smoothest they haven't explained many times in congress and i'm interested so that i mean i just don't know why

didn't you and you found out about these launch an inquiry but quite frankly yom as of the year time that this is all going on you realize that the time of the watergate burglary was no evidence that had ever come to my attention that this could've been used any illegal or improper virginia standing at the moment you don't have an issue to sports why you do anything to investigate what it was for why didn't i didn't occur to the day after this happened that two or three or her quartet the us cia agents and one and so on the payrolls and wanted to lock yourself an investigation to see what was going on about the wanted poster

we keep track of all these people in a relationship relationships are they were it strikes me there's there are great indications in libya and say it's the only way we look at a river great indication the la crosse of education with at least the actress manal cia materials a desperate relationship with the cia that you didn't know about except for the psychological profile saying a similarity between that contention and i do not doubt that you as a director cia from our

intention of the president that he didn't know all about you know let's hope when we looked into these various relationships of these individuals with the agency we turned over to the fbi everything we were able to establish this now therefore i assume that what you're saying is that that somehow i should have gotten these fellows who are in jail and that as one of the what we've been seeing here that was my function sir yesterday i was conducting an investigation there were the proper authorities to do this and quite

frankly i think there's not a lot of babies but you have people in the cia that he later learned that supply base wage boys alternate by immigration process and aliases forged documents did you go to the people inside the cia to find out how come i didn't want to say it was not the ellsberg than consumed by curiosity what else was going on and what was it various inventions i know i don't know why didn't you find it because i thought that they were know these individuals who've been arrested holmes

was well maybe it was now it won't surprise you thank you i jumped up and i found out what happened but i have no reason to live like of an extraordinary country you know i like to be where the are common says mccaskill i am but at the time that these men were

arrested it did not seem to me that there was a proper thing for me to get into the affair as to why they've been arrested or their parents were just to lose a lot of that a couple of these big event did not seem to me that it was a proper job hameed undertaken investigate how they got marijuana been arrested our list of a misunderstood <unk> now continue doing nothing and ask do by way of testing the situation earlier evidence should imply anything that contract in tiananmen enormous respect immigration preview for what you've done and what you will do and i appreciate you get one question could you reach conclusion that if you don't think of what to me that would've been inconsistent with the probation which you operate that you know

the cia has no functioning respect to and security that's what about investigating is only step within his own organization that while any domestic security seventeen nineteen seventy two remember the cia or the cia know in the cia or the cia was mr mcarthur our cia was mr martinez a bar in the cia was to work in this

on the general issues which which operations that in florida and so far a screening of prisoners in cuba and asked jennings to innovation be would be best understood is he a member of the cia or the cia your volume over the cia knows one of the only member of the cia and all these matters on june seventeenth nineteen seventy two was for martinez who was on a dollar printer down in florida voters remain a few minutes of power thank you

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