1973 Watergate Hearings; 1973-07-23; Part 2 of 4

it's both reports of a parliament and send in a clear now i think that after the break in so paulo and if it became an important matter it does testimony and starting the meetings all we're where narrow it i certainly never attended any time i was specifically aware that they were having all these meetings on what is turned up in oregon and we'd ever met in

the stadium yesterday so it goes all kinds of people sort of an order on the giver told me that he was having always means committee report for the president it's not necessarily new that's correct and i would guess that he would report directly rather than through the iran has a town electrified

you unintelligible as the subject of in disgust time for a couple of months before that what this would be from december nineteen seventy one through april seventy two astronomer his office conducted extensive polling and he told me at one point when i was having discussions with mr camargo to make sure that we have an ample supply of cash to pay for these polls much talk with john dean about writing arranging john been a method for holding the money i eventually told me that he could not be that on april sixth i prepared a

memorandum for mr hollande so if we're going to get that money from the committee before the new finance law we have to get very soon chanting cannot make arrangements for your for other alternatives he checked that one and again the nashville pick up the money that i'm eligible revealed her friend who would hold the money than that's alex and there's a way to get one over to seventy no one can make to reelect president yunus to come box office or too slow yes it was what eventually turned over to walk into his office nicolas began counting it down and then he said he would get to his friend i'm renee montagne

was this morning definitely now to uganda where well yes somewhere around the time of the hanoi it on bombing mr harkin indicated it calls an unapproved advertisement i believe it was under the auspices of taught them alive but in any event concerned indicating public support for the bombing and my decision chances are goals needed twenty two thousand dollars ask if we should authorize that expenditure he says yes and

the money was delivered oh should back up a little i think after the election i get the money back from mr butterfield band because the stronger mentally return the money to the committee then john dean told me that he wanted to have a three hundred and fifty thousand dollars in tax and fred fielding at twenty two thousand dollars which i placed with a three hundred below the sea well what is the answer that

we yes mr dean had told mr chabon i mean that girls over from the prosecutor's office wanting to interview us on that interview was scheduled on november twenty eight and mr dean indicated that one of the questions might be whether or not the three hundred and fifty thousand dollars was in fact intact i know or some of the time that he had received from listener stands in his deposition i don't personally know where he got them and we received many and there's some confusion as to that amount

on the coward and i did go to john dean's office and give him some cash in and blow up again even three of his cabinet i always thought it was seven thousand dollars but you seven thousand dollars was spent on the absence of the thousands left their fifteen thousand civilians and seven thousand dollars i think so it is well that has to be done to get the money back to the committee and this was just another problem that you have to cope with that spirit that this money

back yes i am call me don't ask me to call mr rove called mr rove and he asked me if i could bring him out which john dean had specified time to him at his apartment that evening alone for mr lewis good senior campaign official at the committee to re elect the president and there i decided that i would drop about his apartment my recollection is that it was forty thousand dollars to note johnny unspecified it was either fourteen or seventy and distillers that it was fifty as a dad that was and then

instructed to do that really begins to being called me and said that well it's time to get the bounce back to the committee which call missouri called the troubled by my apartment so yes john been set and get a receipt for the entire amount so i want to restore the game i think asking for a receipt he said john dean well i was quite surprised but then those of the mine stretches asked for was a london

animal and chief counsel sandbags will question mr strahm about the activities of the most aggressive public television's coverage of the watergate hearings will continue after we pass her station identification on a bridge to coverage of these hearings is provided as a public service of the member stations of pbs the public broadcasting service fb the proletarian

and pike continues its coverage of hearings by the senate select committee on presidential campaign

activities you again correspondent robert macneil as they go back to the hearings gordon strong former anchorage our problem is answering questions i was working on this no i was not and i was quite surprised to learn about it because whether you and the press because within a couple weeks or a month before delivery to missouri and talk about the money with earl so you were going to get money to give the defendants usually when that money that the prosecutors would know he was mesmerized

you wanted to do this is money the sunni community yes yes mr chabon was also going to be interviewed on the same day by the fbi and just really knew that we had learned directly from the fbi being called us up and said that we would be interviewed by the fbi and we went over to his office and in our before the fbi

interview yes i assume shape and had talked to even before that we review those plans he indicated to me that don't necessarily volunteer anything to the fbi but make sure that their statement to them is absolutely correct you're right well you know for me at that time it wasn't until later that i told him that i return the money to mr rubenstein the instructions and you give it

well obviously you wouldn't be speaking for many and that was it that's correct yes that's the money yes i talked to a miserable in the former grand jury testimony where he said that while i had drawn up by list of what i consider to be tough questions and then i went through them with them and then

he told me to make sure that my answer would be absolute truth i was going to do yes on march twenty eight was from a group calling and then asked if he could see us and that was a good idea he insisted that he had talked to me could he come over to my whole vetting a funny name and he came to my home well they want to really get it transcripts of testimony in the grand jury testimony and so that grand jury testimony in the grand jury testimony while i'm not sure why but he had a

package of the documents which he indicated where he is testimony before the trial a grand jury will later mentioned the letter to john dean his answer was under understand where ricker that his injury friends or so he told me that the prosecutors were after him on perjury or not believing him and he asked me if i went that corroborate part of the story and convince the prosecutors that they're the story that list reader until without to be more specific as recruiter asked me to testify that i had been talking

him about mr liddy interceded and mr libby's behalf of mr mcgregor will not farm you know what or disability he's testified or tomorrow i imagine so that's clear the time for a while you say that you know i mean he was quite was dropping heat maybe lead me on the basis of family very impassioned serious consequences

were then given an answer that i don't know i was nervous about the meeting eu continue to call me next week eventually it really became about four times one is which my home and i decided to come back and i told him that you know i couldn't robert that's the way i remembered it and i could not justify that well no it's a belief i'm really well in this facility that he did not get along with reporter and mostly as to thicken reports mr hall and you have to be checked

john you know that the group living or having a dispute and that was really wants to report to a withdrawal john being suggested but since i was an actor preparing for mr haldeman that i suggest that was roman called john mitchell and have mr liddy reports mr martin i prepared the memorandum for mr haldeman so my recommendation from champagne it came back from mr haldeman and instead of proof disapprove comment and he'd written in a margin call letting handle psychology and dina i said well the recommendation seven with

all our present until as often as weekly something extraordinary came up it would slip two three or four weeks it is baby about political matters memorandum in the original form would be eight to ten pages and the tags attached to make their back of maybe three quarters of an inch thick image that oh yes and i submitted that and iran on polling if i took a telephone call for him by thank you mr mccune oh

we didn't really quite substantially if they have one or two memos and his actions over and each day listening to the patient well originally there were well written and it was dismissed at a ministry carolina to understand the night on the staff reorganized in january one secretary and i assume the role he had a line from solomon that is taking the papers in a latino still mr

bb on another individual george carlin's was added in july nineteen seventy two then eventually another first lady has added close to the election mr o'donnell who is going to take over the assignment some of this is that there were four other if you can mr crowe i don't know at the time of the election for mr higby was the administrative assistant to mr baldwin senior aide who would work on whatever projects mr holland was working on at that particular time with the political will be unbearable in various play all inclusive that i can't remember a case

when they floated not going to be mistreated mr curtis stature responsibility of interview with though say the first incident of this was primarily administrative he would handle the heat presidential action memoranda the presidential follow up as well as the it is very easy in terms of furniture secretary salaries recommendations as to who honest i think that raises a video i'm renee montagne for

people yes i'm the best way is to look at the papers as they eventually went into him in the folders the fall as we're organizing the action fall into usually the water to the miranda decision and yet there would be usually more menus many as a dozen pieces of paper in the end of a folder which would have copies of other staff members memos serbia than half a dozen dozen pieces of paper or whatever they do or what will stop for a moment

yesterday the state through march april there was something else too it was wow it's better to go the other way if the president was at an office the chances were pretty good that is rollin would be with them that will be the case for example there are in china trip there in the russia trip the president took a trip into the country normally travel with them on a well a regular meetings in the morning and fifteen the thirties but that after that annie matters or meetings put on mr haldeman schedule would be kiosk well

presidents get your resume as brothers tomorrow shovel and that would be a time when you mr haldeman be available any scheduled meeting you mentioned the cabbage and what color her conversation with rural march thirty and he had told you and usually indicates thank you could say that he read every single one of our local matters memos in the original form of fertility would not want read the tabs and you would right i haven't read the tabs on earth where there were no check marks in the upper righthand corner of the tabs interview with them irresponsibility renovated vacant second

determination as to whether or not he should in fact be forced to read the tappet brothers attention on march thirty first quarter of that report and retold do that then approved a budget of three hundred and it uses point of that made a clinical matters in the form of a home in which you that's it as i put it one of you will submit the election among them the fall i'm not exactly sure that that is after all one of them and a couple of days i guess iran's

possible at one over the weekend the uptown my gun and on monday of historical well what if you will a plane and travis was one of the virtuoso then suspended the campaign can do there's campaigns through this offensive material which is a little awkward moment of age salinger i'm not like kerosene on a regular basis i haven't received to other reports on this one was on a way the most interesting which was the reason i included in that plan of the season

i don't recall receded from a particular person there was a standard messenger system that would deliver all of the material from the committee to me it was delivered to a box in a minute secretary for the open it and bring an intimate arm there wasn't a slip or something on at the indicators from russia you know i don't really know this adventure to was a plant in the humphrey campaign until louisiana supporters in the three years that money to that you're welcome

pieces of paper that would be characterized as political intelligence that would arrive from the committee and other members of the white house given that the report from a reporter the speed paid by the committee and being disgruntled staff member what're you know i didn't make that assumption until considerably later when i went back and re read in opening remarks on sedan chair to that it was a confidential source reliably reporting from information than that one

thank you well i had learned on december second from john dean that mr libby was going to assume control just reporters intelligence gathering activities and they're talking paper from astrology and so the question was is that a libya the one person responsible committee for political intelligence and political intelligence coming from the committee assumed there was hostility you sent

us i know meaning what no idea of freedom at the entire system and consolidate or something i knew during january and february political intelligence information was being acquired so you in amanda knew it that well as

testimonies indicated mr liddy apparently received a hundred and twenty five thousand dollars will for this budget americans approved i had told mr liddy that mississippi or anyone reporting him i just assumed that finally there was going to be one unified says mm hmm and as i said that it was engaged and other intelligence gathering operations crumble be insane business

mm hmm i think i really focused on in fact i think i assume that that would involve people like a musty driver venture operation that's correct the people

i do rick perry wasn't something to the effect that this intelligence gathering system on adequate delegates system on track typical questions that i live in the other talking papers but you didn't know exactly well done but with the new data well the

purpose of the talk and paper was to raise the subject i would frequently say here for example is the political organization in new york functioning smoothly it is a political organization in new york no no unnecessary but the point was to raise the subject all and would receive some information from individual that you'd be talking disappointing his regime

i do not know this well several of the talking papers that i cared for mr haldeman were posed the question should be eating more than me white house contact for political intelligence again is raising the subject for discussion if i had a particular problem has been when mr libby asked deacon reporter

mr allman i would call spending oh sure he was not available very simple message it was the director of some of the committee paul's believers so that we submit through the fall or clean

or because of the more than one meaning in retrospect that it could make it even inclement weather looking back now we could be given at that meeting all one knows what i assumed that immediately after time instructions given to make shortly thereafter in what reportedly john dean shortly thereafter the impression was very clear in my mind that the documents would be destroyed and examine the science that could be subject to interpretation that's right

years ago when you have major about working with an orchestra and that's a major problem i told him but i had made sure the files are clean and that the political marriage memorandum which i had written to him i destroyed and i may well mention the germ that i had told john dean about a call telling mr haldeman and i'm told johnny b i know

information abortions like i told john b that i've prepared a political matters memorandum for mr hollande with this information and with sudan here mr altman have not read that aren't in a gated community have not read it before they read it at that time and i proceeded to tell john the documents that and destroyed yes of

a circus the only reason i want to say john thank you i just know the information has to testify before this committee chicago and from that and it worked

and it does the result awesome that john being told philbin to get the money and to get him not why he told to get twenty two something on the fifteenth as the mongolian the positions on the you indicate that you have submitted mr kohlmann part of the

key biscayne decision a memorandum which indicate that this is going to be one of the subjects of discussion at key biscayne is that correct senator testify to is that after the key biscayne at i submitted a memorandum to mr haldeman describing decisions made in this game what did you mean when you said that was the record you were really a key biscayne and you review the papers that were going to be submitted an estimate no i said that i was aware that mr mcgregor would be going down to the disdain iran to meet with mr mitchell i did

not interview with mr mcgregor all pending matters that libya subject for discussion and decision and humorist and as i understood your testimony you had a telephone conversations who were before he left a key biscayne and that at one of the items that conversation was with respect to this particular intelligence gathering plan you just ate that night senator that's not correct on now who was then mr butterfield is a friend where the money was delivered to and the money was delivered well this memorandum is an existence and i recently reviewed it and i believe that name of the individual who is a friend of mr butterfield and say mr lilley really what is forming i'm sorry i don't know

now in the days after june that when you proceeded to destroy several of the club's with respect to political matters that might have been sent to testify that he spent several hours trying to coding about what particular file they need to go to to examine the sensitivity and the sensitivity of the particular job well the office that we moved into on january one was a unified office and that there was only one door and vocalist pearl i am myself am for secretaries were located in one area behind one dollar since the documents in this office including presidential memorandum presidential action papers are small notes

the president's personal files and there was a sensor device installed so that when the door was closed it was monitored that i believe that secret service or please monitoring station so that no one can go into that office unless they were clear that with the guards and the time of a person's going into the office in our troop would be recorded so when asked which files i went through they were the files in these in this particular political matters one large file cabinet of those sectors and this particular user and was it this particular operation from one of the filing cabinets there and if you go the five specific documents which you've mentioned as from this particular

are crossing from this particular file cabinet that i call the documents i'm not sure the list is exactly five years now with respect to the political momentum documents in which you mentioned that the key biscayne no matter what that are the specifics in that particular doctor i'm sorry rebekah with respect to the regular political matters with respect to the key biscayne well one of the thirty or so decisions that mr mcgregor reporter to me on included a statement that seventy no one being of course the

committee to re elect the president now has a sophisticated political intelligence gathering system with a budget of three hundred more applications the texans in the paragraphs that sample of the type of information they're developing is attached that cabbage and when families reflect the inspector that i'm at that age was a document salinger and me also concerned that said that you know now you were you mentioned in previous testimony that the white house didn't have a dirty tricks capability what you mean by that well mr golson zappos was referred to as the office of dirty tricks and so that's what i did

well within the context of this capability you wouldn't have some background information well there are actually a press reporter to hear about language jokingly call the only specific that i can recall the moment regarding would be sort of a very tricky word and that's a concern in the nineteen seventy election when i went on the attack ads with mr golson what you mean a decade in nineteen seventy there were a series of senate races thank you

i had in the us for that question with respect to the nineteen seventies right now oh oh i just want to get the background has this capability on how to give the dignity to you as a change that now but how long has this capability yesterday at the white house well i think i was there when i arrived in august nineteen seventy and it was there during the nineteen seventy two campaign and it was it was this capability was a subject of some concern every once was a haldeman ask me well what you know about paulson's doing i really don't know very much about

i'm a journalist and they say you know about austen's going to serve a job nobody really knew what the symbols of the media did you believe that mr holman was going on well he knew he'd found out and recruiting goals what was that what is your opinion with respect to what knowledge an alderman might have had with respect isn't your feeling that he did have this knowledge of what was going on you're asking my opinion an innovative he was certainly aware of such crossings various dirty tricks aren't necessarily the specifics of the details but that he was generally aware of them and that he was aware of

intelligence gathering since that have been discussed in several meetings now your testimony indicates that they know the political which you submitted on that that there was a constant say about the question of what about the intelligence gathering is an addict and you indicate that you know it's a very fluid that particular sphere of angry i waited to do things well file but there was of interest political intelligence gathering was raised never apparently formally was all so i would continue putting didn't talk and i was in the studio we've mentioned when the discussions took place

now the first time is to let his name was mentioned billy was on november four there were several previous references to different intelligence lines what you mean what they're what we're speaking of nineteen seventy one and was two days and nine began popping up there with respect to intelligence gathering about that time was ever true testimony and that's hurt senator and so that when i am mr coleman is trying to do to me to change that senator muskie's campaign tune government you understood the context within which he was speaking honestly and deb

what kind of conversation did you have witnessed a living and following the lawns parking lot cause the living i asked him to come to my office and unclear to come in office he came in and open my book were you a present the next item which read and they're also try to relate that conversation that you have it well the statement that i read was transfer whatever capability you have a musky to mcgovern with particular emphasis on discovering the relationship between senator mcgovern and senator kennedy and musical hair about the court testified about the

monitoring the conversation between mr mitchell and mr baldwin did you take any notes of that bigger conversation certainly an hour what did those notes reflect on because to watch testified to those notes are in existence not give them recently they're very close to what i mentioned earlier when there were dead in here it was a very brief conversation where mr mitchell said using a returning from florida or had returned from florida in the industry call ninja probably get together stronger mentioned that was probably a mistake that was instilled an important occasion of a joking reference i think it strongly suggested that three o'clock that they might be convenient in discussing specifics of the conversation with respect to the subject matter for the agenda for the next day the meeting was scheduled for that same day

and maintenance destiny mr stevens boiled over what if you don't cooperate with respect to intelligence gathering or with respect to mr libby in the talking picture which is cement or that afternoon the question i pose there were prepared to talk and paper and double spaced and there'd be a paragraph on intelligence on the subject intelligence i would pose questions such as is the current system is the college insisted on track something to get the conversation going on i mean i did not attend the meeting and i simply don't know how long

i received a materials back from the meeting but i do not know how long now in preparing baber is an owner's including something with respect to your concern for the state of intelligence gathering going on is it reasonable to assume that you had the family background as to what the white house was doing by way of intelligence gathering alan why she would not have given such important fb the