1973 Watergate Hearings; 1973-07-23; Part 3 of 4

it's b two intelligence gathering about that time is that which are testimonials that's what senator and so that when they happen mr rowland instructive to john ydstie to change that senator muskie campaign to mcgovern's you understood the context within which he was speaking honestly and at what kind of conversation did you have witnessed daily in following the woman's options are caused a living and american authors opened my notebook

were you out please repeat the next item which read and they're also try to relate that conversation that you have it well that statement that i read was transfer whatever capability you have a musky to mcgovern with particular emphasis on discovering the relationship between senator mcgovern and senator kennedy the musical hair about the court testified about the monitoring the conversation between mr mitchell and mr baldwin did you take any notice bigger conversation pretty close to what i've testified to those notes are in existence not forgive him recently they're very close to what

i mentioned earlier where there were dead in here it was a very brief conversation where mr mitchell said you see the returning from florida or had returned from florida in astrology probably get together stronger mentioned that was probably a mistake that was instilled an important occasion of a joking reference i'm strongly suggested that three o'clock that they might be convenient late in discussing specifics of the conversation with respect to the subject matter or the agenda for the next day it was scheduled for the same day and they do not discuss it mr stevens bye what'd you mean cooperate

with respect to intelligence gathering or with respect to mr libby in the talking neighbor just a minute for that afternoon the question posed i would prepare the talk and paper double spaced and they're only a paragraph on intelligence on the subject intelligence i would pose questions such as is the current system adequate with the gelatin system on track something to get the conversation going i did not attend the meeting and i simply don't know how long i received a materials back from the meeting but i do not know how long lines now in preparing he's drawing papers and always including something with respect to your concern

for the state of intelligence gathering going on is it reasonable to assume that you had if their background as to what the white house was doing a way of intelligence gathering allen why he would not have given such importance this particular type of inquiry into the drawing papers i don't actually know background and intelligence gathering the reason the subject was included was that whenever i would go into the talking paper there be a note about a checklist ehrlichman or it's on track or is it something in the gay subject should be re re few minutes ago you really get into it was your assumptions and beliefs

because of his campaign's a vacation that he would have told me everything that he was doing that was ten years ago within our lives sliding overstated senator a statement industry bash was a question do you have a remarkable facility for the facts and so you reported independently mr haldeman and mr lehman there many times in john dean's office i'm a miner conflict of interest that is for example of them fairly certain that he never reported in the journal i wouldn't quite say that he reported everything well not you must have been for quite some time would you say he's a truthful man well i don't think you ever lied to me

now every opinion and i mean staying until the president about what it in the car would you say that he was telling the truth was my opinion based on my experiences with johnny in my opinion would be john d movie telling the truth now what was your real motivations for coming i practiced law for two years and new york new york is a fascinating place to practice law or a place in which to live i know mr chabon

he asked me to join the white house that i've worked with certain members of the white house staff has an advancement unlike the individuals and there were you into those vouchers and here in washington when you first came here i'm definitely only twenty seven years old one in the white house kissinger that's it's a pretty on quote an opportunity for young men an answer now i noticed on how proud the family is of you

because this information has come and justly so that's what i wanted this question the golden age many young people are writing to us the different members of the committee expressing great consternation about the future of our country dane is not as effective for warning in other words they're greatly disappointing and feel of an expectation gobble indicates this now going back to your original concept of insurance and they motivations we can move you into this record and then subsequently your saudi arabia begins instructions from his superiors

and you're going through the un when the young thing i believe they want you know williams well it may sound very numb at the top of the device that you can look back and then once again my family has been the peak thanks bye

that startling personal statement from armstrong the committee broke off the proceedings for a luncheon right along executive session only reason in a moment we'll have the committees reaction to the president's refusal to turn over tapes of his conversations over television coverage of the senate watergate hearings will continue after a pause for station identification on average coverage of these hearings is provided as a public service by the member stations of pbs for public broadcasting service fb fb

and ride continues its coverage of hearings by the senate

select committee on presidential campaign activities you again correspondent jim lehrer as we go back to that hearing senator obama's about to read the president's letter on the tape recordings and urban delivers the committee's response he's right you know you're welcome if you really are

going to have a family will write a town hall meetings there with the next i agree with that the second one i have access to think about a conversation with saint i have that they give you six

question and complications that would happen anyway thank you before that this is the goal to be untrue or at one of the all day mr wright one of the ways

all right that's right there's been tension oh maybe thank you

and in a way and you know you're right if you want to work with the money all while issue to make available to them it shows that they will be permitted thank you that's right there's the

anticipated all right in the nineteen eighties the patient it never regretted the recession may be oh i have that revelation right now you're going to say

i really like it fb page who's a congressional committee i know and i know this information

oh no and the alamo we have no power oh

yeah well and i would rather make available to evolve at all all right mm hmm oh oh oh

i mean this week where is it it's been to pay as we were but he's the leading edge of an invasion on the question of separation are foreigners

the committee as well certain documents in certain portions all the so called butterfield tapes relative importance committee as my colleagues on the committee know i tried as far as i know i'm not gay it suggested there is an alternative even now i don't just they're all old that we can find a way to reconcile our differences in the public that invention and burners and an effective partner i don't know as reporters be my maternal

grandmother's opinion our essential if people for our environment mandated a pair of this committee i shall refrained from expressing man a valuation of the entire situation but it is the totality of the testimony in the entrances to the draw or witnesses on february twenty fourth nineteen seventy four or prior to the committee that's reporter they all express my conclusions not all this month however that when

we do that this is a variety reporter with all of the available information and that we can not funny certainly not the committee is pretty certain time to time for extensions are rules of evidence nation salmon nation council another and a number of other legal concepts but we do know we were trying to create we're trying to find that was that was so this is divine well and relationships but my

uncle toby's of color or an m n and that it is necessary for us to confrontation in twenty eleven we saw it really does i don't know first a personal assistant and no less untried again all

the information on which to base that later it's both ms bee has been to

pass because businesses be while you too bob hola

if you're listening in on the conversation between us in the white house conversations so is that right well i'm not sure it's been described by other witnesses before but we discussed this with the senator and executive sessions are a call man at that point i mentioned that several white house aides had the capability on their telephone to

switch their that the fans she recorded telephone conversations the names i'm not sure the list will be inclusive those but i know that you know yes senator i'd been given many others that you have such a system on the floor yes i am my secretary mr higby mr golson do you have any of the trades all it takes

my telephone conversations were usually transcribed immediately and then the tape simply reuse some of the transcriptions still exists in the executive office building you know of transcriptions of the telephone conversation or maybe you know the first versions of their own conversations i simply do not know the only documents that i have access to on my own records the system why the president individual members of the white house at least the senators of principles and they also have the capability to take a toll on the research and that transmission of those conversations

one reasons is believe it was installed when i joined mr haldeman staff and became extensively involved in polling operations and was responsible for setting up the system technically set up a system that would either have been white house communications agency or possibly the secret service i just don't know who the technical people were who made the arrangement that what they did in trying to acquire this fighting capability a question of what they did you acquire this capability

well i definitely had it when we moved into our new offices on january one nineteen seventy two and i think that happened in the previous office that i have the six months prior to that enjoy the experience culling operations and would not have taken place prior to seventy two yes that's one fairly certain i did i just cannot picture in my mind the capability and my firehouse for not going through an area rich in disgust with the committee president relative to the

election of nineteen seventy two and more specifically why would turn white house attitudes towards democratic congressman democratic senator of ansel just raising the subject in a general way to do it indicated that committee your knowledge these regimes well as i indicated to you in executive session senator there was a list of approximately one hundred democratic congressman primarily from the south who had supported the president on the crucial votes on the vietnam war and i don't recall lists a number of the democratic senators again primarily from the south who similarly had supported the president on crucial votes on the vietnam

war and what was the purpose of this list well it was my understanding that the one hundred democratic senators would not receive very strong opposition from republicans you mean the say the one hundred senators and congressmen new community center in recent years and it estimates that women would not receive opposition from republicans for a novel is quite a strong us will not receive opposition the goal is not to give a tremendous amount of support to republicans that would've posed in some instances it was a disgusting no opponent in the field against the emperor

i can't specifically recall that in the way of financial support to the republicans this with phil there's a lot of discretion as to one another should be any financial support to republican candidates primarily because of the support of the president george and the labor movement they were supporting democratic congressman and the feeling was that since they were supporting the president's new and final funds into republican congressional campaign roosevelt really disgusting republican candidates themselves what was disappointing

yes that's mine the choice was made on the basis that since president george labor support with the offensive going financing republican candidate candidacy against them because i guess i think the basis of that decision there were substantial campaign funds but one proposals would be submitted for some of those campaign funds to be channeled into house and senate races races those proposals would usually be rejected would make these types of decisions the only decisions is that we have republicans doing and republicans are

well the president made quite a point during the campaign and most of the campaign literature was not specifically time for the republican party because something like twenty million democrats support of the president the effort was to not rely tremendously an apartment represented only twenty seven percent of the people saw the factory really present operations not a republican operative who's included re elected president a porsche that's a first in your parties agree to the stage of the game but also my republican party can revive the actions of these individuals these are any other category of republican

ad support with hail from his campaign in london at the moment you know it occurred to you that has occurred to you now that virtually guaranteed that the republican party could not contain take control of either the house or the senate in the election of nineteen seventy two would you repeat the question did it ever occur to you then are you realize now that by these actions taken it will be impossible for the republican party to take control of either the house or the senate in elections on that well i don't think very many people considered it a reasonable possibility that the republicans would ever captured the house i see him so in other words the matter was given up on even before it starts well the numbers are simply overwhelming in nineteen seventy two

of course and there was considerably more interest in the senate because they're obviously erases it easier to concentrate your answers will only contest the democrats where the malaria question and which races as both on another subject that it only occurred to me on the best information you gave to the committee the other day and they deport certain proper focus of the question has to work with republicans and work that republicans something that's inherently believes that one last started to ask

russians have you ever had occasion to a converse with mr richard new york yes on top of mr moore several times and community subject matter of those conversations are and aquatic viola mr morgan joined the staff he became as he testified this one of the senior advisor to many of the junior mammals that than i accept gratefully his advice let me not so subtle approach into greater recounting her experiences wisdom or was the last time you met with them or walk <unk> more in march of nineteen seventy three i could very well you know what i mean

yes i'm not entirely certain that was in march but on the morning and mr morn i met regarding this really matter what exactly friends wiring between wisdom or yourself and the trick obviously it was an attempt to prepare as i understood it on a report from the strip more to the president sky being exactly the cigarette in mr morrow made an unusual documents in his possession is certainly had my fbi showed

you and to mr chaikin your fbi thrilled to file that's correct you consider this an unusual procedure these are these files that are available to everyone says rather unusual siege well the files are not available to everyone mr moore told me that he had received them from mr dean and was working with mr dean on this particular matter i don't think there is much written the journal on this one question that i can get directly from this witness but i think a very important are considering a rather harsh criticism directed against a member of the staff of this committee and his question invest more but at some appropriate times more because back before the committee to explain this particular activity he received a great deal question

question that's jim clemente we need help that's right thank you the commission regulates related to the president elect in nineteen

seventy with them it is all right to be designated as bingham oh and the lawyers both they have a much stronger know just that you suggested that you were a world the use of the internal revenue service for political purposes well the papers which john being said that it doesn't believe exhibit is today's testimony i received probably the rituals of those talking papers from history before mr haldeman they're still in existence in my

executive office building summary talking paper one page and incorporating those matters mentioned by mr dean and by mr caulfield for a projected meeting between mr holman and the secretary of the treasury or procedures work of musical creators well the suggestion was that the commissioner of the internal revenue service should be more politically responsive to the request presumably from the white house nina pham who plays a white house source in the internal revenue service were you one of those designated for placement and internal revenue service

well and practiced that one new york i had hoped to join the internal revenue service was one place there and that was considered at one point decided against because my moved there from being an astronomer was that would be too obviously political so the suggestion was rejected the discussions involving american citizens who were destined for special treatment by the internal revenue service one individual in particular was mentioned to me as a person who won a more politically responsive commissioner had been placed in the internal revenue service would be subject to it people build on it no i was asked to

contact mr paulson's office for a list of twenty people who would be subject the subjectivity and you the listeners so called was because things are less and smile or standing the list was eventually sent the funding so there was a specific responsibility or function of just the calls and why those who do responsibilities he'd rather leave his official title is special counsel to the president he emerged remarkably one snap assistance have been fairly substantial snapping twenty people he seemed to be involved in almost every

major decision gradually ebbed at maintaining contact with labor organizations outside business groups and continue to do that but you also have suggestions in personnel matters recommendations as to issues dances for example what position the president should take on the question of abortion which was it wasn't just the calls oh also i'm conservative political advice on contracts particularly of activities in massachusetts really across the board and probably most interested in advertising

is for example a source of the advertisements are surrounding the bombings and why were you referred to mr colson oh this list it was her responsibility well he was my understanding that he maintained the listeners all those friends and people would contact the key leaders in certain areas within the country and that you were in also be able to select leaders who do not support you're a specialist in tax matters and i recall in somalia you have been singled out there to assist the president and the establishment is history this

is true establishment of assisted by i gather that you had in mind some tax benefits from being contribution of papers and documents to the government is that right it's under the tax law to the reform act of nineteen sixty nine there was a provision whereby presidential papers and documents could be contributing to substantial tax advantage to be gone or was a distinction made between personal private papers and publish papers or will in one part of that question of law has never been settled most presidents have taken the view that any documents appeared in their public a passerby mr johnson or something like

twenty moving vans full of documents and memorabilia out with no apparent distinction between personal papers that he had crafted and papers that had been prepared by other members of the government paid for him were the tapes that we have been discussing with data about the state of richard nixon well usually the description of the assets which would be transferred would be extraordinarily broad church is that his materials would be used to include everything papers memorabilia state gifts tapes photographs almost anything related to the presence of where you enter the tapes that have been under discussion the last three days we consider this

no i did not know the existence of those tapes until mr butterfield testament or europe are you aware of these memos i wouldn't doubt that they were because now but he reviewed with the president would usually concern polling matters and he will put it up in the upper righthand corner indicated he wanted to give him cover in the present moment come back to me with a check mark truby indicating that he had covered with the president and i do not remember and i'm certain i would any of my political matters novels were covered with

pleasant and that's my final question before we recess for a few moments as the job is to be recalled visiting you in all the presidents that was the original i'm recalling you're saying that you wouldn't get necessary measures of involving all of that just for the record is that's to be a while well certainly not the front of my mind now and it wasn't the time the particular meeting or conversation that i believe is referring to fall series of meetings too decide how to cope with a cigarette in there was having testified that there was a sunday meeting in the roosevelt room and he listed the attendees try to deal with it

human story on sr great on the sabine did not mention my name yet i was at that meeting there were a series of meetings after that i don't believe the media in question we're working on statements that could be put out to the press by the white house such as the one that mr chabon eventually released and i indicated at that time if a statement it was to be released in my name it could indicate that i had approved plans ready is that most of all i regret it at the time but as mr demers indicate it was a fairly common practice in the white house for example right now i assume responsibility for authorizing fbi investigation sure and tolson assuming the responsibility for it a nineteen seventy attack ads

either of those were true but that was the statement was put out who did not serve in a time that you order so all or not there was no pending body where i would take you know to have to make a statement and in fact when i eventually was asked that particular question before the grand jury on april eleventh who approved the hiring of all security forces yes i think it's probably a mistake more describe it as a victor of those last three people in the meeting and remember the context of the discussion i regret having made that statement by the white house that there was an

overwhelming demand for it really inappropriate sense of loyalty and in that context that made such an offer and read it but it was not a recession president he pauses for a vote on the senate floor and one hundred thousand are playback public television's coverage of the watergate hearings will continue after breakfast station identification on a great coverage of these hearings is provided as a public service of the member stations of pbs and public broadcasting service fb it's been

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