1973 Watergate Hearings; 1973-08-06; Part 4 of 6

it's b on the morning of june twenty third and i said to him that there is cia involvement with the cia to tell us right now the reason for these questions apple has begun to appear in the allegations made him a legitimate area of inquiries to decide whether or not not the white house or anyone connected with the white house or the crp tried to plant the idea that the cia was involved and what extent of any cia or anyone in the cia tried to father that appear that's right he talked of being being suggested there might make the new top workers and waters as you very well they undercover cia operations that aniston in essence what happened up to this point that is correct it would be with one exception that i promise to be medicare is cia involvement you let them tell us so mr

dean and general motors are suggesting you know it was yeah and all my director elmendorf noted that one out appears on page thirteen of years that theory that director helms called i don't see the day i don't have it my note that at one point director helms called you and asked you not to interview active cia men are alive there and downcast so that was in a telephone conversation senator baker i believe which occurred on june twenty eight i'm shirtless you know why are you in investigating these people are i didn't know the fiat director helms that we were going to interview either one of those men surveyed you know that you're going through i didn't at

the time he called me no sir i did not know but i've since learned that your agents were about to do that and that triggered home centers to support you well i am saying that your director helms call i accepted his word and i immediately ordered the interviews jon katz well i'm going to be held in abeyance you indicate what i'm waiting for is why i don't notice that you might mean there was a reason for and frankly suggestion that interview these two men sen gregg i don't know but i know that i also have a telephone note in november which indicates that director tom said call my number two man standing in line the number two man at that late date that's assistant attorney general because regarding interview i don't know

you know who these two people are huge energies sense war i do not know who john as well is and i have since learned mr waggoner and i believe i'm correct in saying this because i learned from the newspapers i believe that he was general questions executives what's the general question of executive assistant i don't those are you know whether either of these names show up in conjunction with the watergate affair yes i've since learned that they were those names i believe i'm correct in saying this i know i'm correct in saying it was regarded as well i believe i'm correct in saying it with regard to whether that those names were him one of the notebooks a little pocket telephone at this type of notebooks that we uncovered and i believe that it was mr hans no but that would have to be subject to verification another positive custody of that material or else i would assume

the fbi does because those leads was sent out from the washington field office you require a director knows why he did not want to live or casual interview most recognized and dealing with people from the cia i did not ask the questions along those lines accept that what they told me on page forty nine of your statement and you may have already covered this in earlier testimony you mentioned ms kathleen should now a request by john damaging not be entertaining or that she be interviewed in england you know who she is what her connection with the situation i believe it is only that you worked on the nsc staff and i have since found out that the rescue now as mr young secretary of state we're running out of time and we're

on page twenty i guess you come close to signing up her state of mind about the cia situation when you say that you're concerned and just heard about the contradictory reporters at the council and being from walter and the abrupt cancellation of a meeting scheduled with alice waters on june twenty eight now to develop in the course of your investigation any further information there on any of these questions first that this was connected with the cia that is the water situation or second that it was a lie and someone was trying to use the appearance and then the cia operation zeroed in the book on which the hangar deck or three

are any other reconciliation of those insurgent tactic whether they ordered interviews following that meeting with federal waters we determined that these were contributions political contributions this this was a political contribution chain rather than the cia money team but in any event that many other towns throughout though there was no cod and bob walters that someone said yes there was or there might be bean said yes there was another might be leading to reconcile those pamphlets was cancelled and that's a force that's as for letting go except one at a meeting with mr mr davis and myself certain meeting mr fail

for me a copy of the article and it has an interesting article which is james horner it's been a lot of tensions identify politically risky fb is based on what we have

and so i was quite like your attention is today to a character the end of the article on to your report on the last paragraph shortly leinberger says the question then is who raps on the idea and this investigation the watergate days and this record in this article and this is the first of a three part series on a reporter sitting next succeeding install that the suggestion is made in the normal course of events search warrants would have been sworn out and executed search the vehicles and premises of the people involved in the water were suggesting that someone stop that procedure and they've done that found in records residences

automobile electronic equipment and about eighteen thousand dollars in hundred dollar bills carbon copies of wiretap lot of the capital letter signed by john mitchel waterson or you have internal security division justice to obtain information you suggested as well as he puts it see your personality wanted to get search warrants but they were turned down other number of other statements by most important as you know i've been a witness before this committee out if those are those allegations are in fact true they bear america very close scrutiny of this committee again at the beginning was there in fact the suppression of the actors up old senior at get personal political to gain search warrant officer is the premises all the watergate defendants

as the fighting this morning senator baker that i thought mr mccourt as being very unfair the dedicated men and women of the federal bureau of investigation and on like that statement to you again some because those men and women would not tolerate suppression and furthermore i know of no such suppression of any desires to get to sichuan and i would like to read if i may please from an exhibit which is before this committee exhibit seventy six would like to review angry inch of some of the fbi and then themselves observations as many limitations on investigation that is the unanimous view section chief of the bills and supervisor charles a newsom and john

jay winik as well as the sec couple of the washington field office but there were absolutely no limitations placed on the fbi's investigation of corruption this is the walking dead it was understood by our personnel involved in this investigation that was to the most thorough an exhaustive investigation was always receding top priority and sufficient personnel assigned to be sure mr gage on destination throughout the name that developing violations of the interception of communications and conspiracies that investigation was directed toward identify new participant in the body including identification of those who may have recruited subjects and that's the operational participated in any act in this crowd why does it say senator baker that to this question was raised again later on in the year and there isn't that human

before this committee an exhibit before this committee which i have presented to it that the agents were not respected and pursuing any leverage which they wish to pursue with the one exception mr whedon my time's expired sticker but i can't resist the last final question on that level of your statement you speak of trying to gain assistance and identifying an individual advancing mr cotham i mean if you ever find out that while yes indeed we get we are and i mr libby who was under the alias at that time of mr leonard we tied them together with the visit is as of july third state with his story stands out i don't understand the significance of the years they're in us citizen that was a couple of really counting recall that i haven't done being in which i asked him for some photographs this is the lawyers in the office and making it

sound like through her work for him to be late june and then the movie called president was that what was the significance to the fbi but the message and money well his significance to answer was that it was even at that time in our thirties it was either at a cia money chain are at a political money came in it it was important to us to try to track it down and determine what it was whether it was used to finance the burglary and the funding of the watergate and in the course of the investigation as you arrive a

determination as to which of those two years that we were able to determine that it indeed it was a political money changers we were calling any political contributions and it really was this mexican money one of the few pieces of hard evidence that the fbi at that early stage it was it wasn't i always recommend saying until june twenty eight that we have the lead to mr liddy i believe that it was staged so that the mexican money was a conviction was enormously important to the investigation of the watergate who was the viola money team that we had right at that point in time so far one point in time

yer and ten iowa to the fact that somebody might be trying to interfere with the investigation i think that i had perhaps a feeling along those lines or a feeling that there's somebody in the white house knows a lot more than we know beginning when my meeting with mr helms was canceled it was a feeling then that maybe this is an activity on the part of people are too some kind of big on the political contribution aspects of the thing that these suspensions really began to generate along those lines rather solemn and i had been meeting with the job was this being mugged at the un's estimate the july the sixth inning i got a scrape

question has been asked and debated as to what it was that you intended to convey to the president of the united states on july the sixth borough could you tell us what it was that you intended to convey in that phone message certainly at that time and i was kind of president that i believe in that were really that people in ways that were using the fbi and the cia to infuse the question of whether people in between

overzealous needed to protect the city was the question convey the result was an investigation of mexican mine was concerned that there were those that were trying to be the investigation us i don't think i didn't need the mexican money came to the president well then let's try to understand be in the very specific as to exactly what message to convey to us did you try to convey the fact that you know there were those individuals on his death anyway investigation

what was going through my mind was eighty thousand different attitude toward the agencies and they'll use of them was as with many others in my mind cia money chamber of political money game but i felt that by their actions of the uses that they would be morally will mean to the president political money mr vickers we really conduct interviews of the individuals phone conversations with voters did you suggest to the

person to the best of my recollection stick in my mind of the words have always been in my mind and the only other thing that it and i did say to the president was that i had just broken the clock mcgregor about this this morning and i asked him to talk with you about is the president and there was a slight pause and then the president said to me that you continue to conduct your third element and aggressive investigation did we did do you raise the president the fact that you and quarters were concerned that what was this a question from the president you know so this was a question maybe it was i didn't really mind i got a feeling that i had been unbeaten in fact that led paul mcgregor and i was

surprised that the president told me and i just blurted out and when he finished third congratulating me on identity i just blurted out to him mr president there's something that i have to speak the robot and the reason i've given the message of the waters and i feel that their people and it's that time a mortally wounded by using the fbi cia to confuse me question of whether the cia discussion with him cia was not a ball buster for the president as best as i can recollect they did not ask me any question because if he had i would have suspected that he would ask me oh you mean i would've thought oh well no it's a rare war review statement

nineteen seventy three on july six nineteen seventy two i telephoned the acting director of the fbi open up a grave to congratulate him on a successful handling of the hijacking of a pacific southwest airlines when the previous day during the conversation mr gray disgust with me the progress of the watergate investigation and i asked him whether you talk with general yesterday said that he had and the gentle lather is that it showed him that the cia was not involved in discussion mr gray suggested a commander of watergate might retire i told the press ahead with his investigation are you characterize her you set your description of this conversation alongside that general

allen's and you said that your state with their version of the conversation with us will stick with your version the conversation set aside that version given by the united states and that we just heard because this is my memory in my best recollection of it's that memory of that for a long long time and the the only thing i was arrested and senator like her and talking with gentle although some of july fifth telephone conversation was a barrier and all this one of the no they had any interest in them or not and i told him that i wasn't arrested in anything else i wasn't interested in reading and two and three quarter page memorandum of the previous information furnished at the working level of the cia and the fbi i just wanted the answer to that question one last question

what was the first time you realize you realize that you are those things it is and realize that i was in a situation where i was going at the scramble to extricate myself was really even my people are twenty five hundred session with

you i think i'm more at the point where the point was really made with me on the evening of april twenty six in the meeting out in the attorney general's office when i have a conversation with the system why are those relations peterson's stake relative to us even said that i'm scared the city does in the interpretation is coming forth from the white house were not to resign when you've been kicked out that start to return or strengthen those suspicions i don't know that i that i really thought of it that way i just thought of it as a very unfair light and only actual situation was different i move on the proportions of the fascination of the committee with grace receipt of those loan files and john

ehrlichman and jaunty and shown again by senator talmage investment public television's coverage of the senate hearings will continue after a pause for a station identification on average coverage of these hearings is provided as a public service by the member stations of pbs the public broadcasting service fb the the

pope and pike continues its coverage of hearings

by the senate select committee on presidential campaign activities here again correspondent robert reich new senator challenge picked up the questioning known as we return to the air there's a long list of being on june twenty first last year many pieces of who is responsible for the break cam an orderly north in vaults the cia when the uk that theory of the committee for the reelection of great info i think that that was and so senator tom waits and the theory that we heard that this was a political operation we didn't just think it was the cia sir they'd do anything to facial maybe we're like yes sir we interviewed my memory is correct sixty people there liane we have a list of those interviews and we have placed didn't have an exhibit that before the committee survive in

london his thoughts about the lobster this be the peak of the pieces back and so some will begin search on june seventeen police and was one that was interviewed then i noticed some earlier ones here june nineteen mr rohde was interviewed on writing this book complex it is to be there be an abuser are a couple that why is that as we know it

was mr paulson no it was a given that we talk with i think just a lot of money seventeen we talked with him regarding xenophobia an investigation into just telephone friendly chat know so that was that particular cause or german whether or not there's truth and to get back to the papers now that and that just being delivered to you didn't you think it was trains the top secret papers then entered white house rises they would tell you a supposedly non political organization but not let them see the light of day because of political dynamite sen mcconnell that that say to you that at a time when i

receive those the answer to your question is no because i did not have those kinds of suspicions you wouldn't think your office's director fbi when an extension of the white house as possible those patients it is i was looking at christmas

in the assassination they got a reasoned got authenticity in favor of the new bern a good issue on the road back three thousand and eight the democrats who are mandated the documents will indeed all things that might throw a new light on the assassination president and it is mr schmidt

you do with that investigations in domestic maintenance to lunch off a moral and a break in a certain openness and what i didn't hear the president those suspicions that i had as i testified earlier so they did and i really and sincerely believe the general reason i have been alarms tuition hikes senator clinton following two successive meetings that i had was i asked president will face was no except that on occasion he said

yes he did now one final question i read one sentence from the president's statement and the discussion mr gray suggested a matter of what it might lead to ha campbell united states in his state your testimony to members of his day he did not thank you so just to follow on that question and some of the college in retrospect it occurs to all of kinds of your suspicions that perhaps when a heightened but isn't it a fact that everybody in washington and i guess elsewhere in the country around about that time in

june voters break occurred thought that this was a crazy headline seat that was done by some stupid fool and ended probably would've gotten what it was and that the general feeling around washington that appeared to be in the report of the discussions that we have within the investigation and even in my first conversation with the record also believe we can now even in a conversation that i was defeated saddam me a twenty gauge you you said that to me that we are at sixes and sevens which is about the most is the ioc violations yes we were growing and in those days we were looking we was at and there was plenty of activity there were more leads really and we get a lot of people were working literally around the clock security

what does watergate my art collection is that you know anybody i've talked to during those periods simply dismiss that i'll have that anybody ever higher authority could have done anything to do with this headline ski senate hearings that we still talk and we made these statements at the lunch table please please the luncheons at which would be the senior minna the fbi president that they just believe these men were far too intelligent to have any part of this kind of the sordid affair and this indeed was as to my knowledge so that was my own just want to hurt any

final question for a visa free so you can do like you can show us i do recall when you had your first meeting jumping on on this watergate matter you said you just the sofa we've talked about a couple of your course the cia for him and that somebody at the committee to reelect was responsible as indeed it turned out the two but you also mentioned a theory of bubbly jewelry store that's very unusual for ground about when and why did you think it might be you know sweeney eb i mean the replacements

and it just seemed to us we were an investigation it's been did you did you have to determine in your investigation of the actual mechanics of the decision that was to leave the table saw no one of dollars this bill justice

department what did he tell you were not going to be an investigation was no restrictions on it whatsoever i'm terry gross before the committee and a thorough investigation as the prosecutors in court is really really that whatever information he had a substance on the investigation came through the mob justice i believe in the criminal division side because he and i had no cost of substance regarding this particular investigation there has been some question i'm sure you know about whether it was being conducted an investigation is just the

volunteers on the present united states are supporting it mr bean words from on a longer workouts in your many conversations with him during his retirement what do you think his name was i believe it is conducting an investigation and i believe that he was going to the president because it's only lesson i believe that even as late as november he was looking into relationships said that it was strong shape and i just believe that he was conducting an investigation i'm so sorry he was conducting investigations of our show although it didn't

surprise me because i believe going to be conducting an investigation and ultimately proportions as another fact that year in february currently dean contacted the cia asked them to retrieve their files orioles did leno ever contact you were with her garden with those or within i'm assuming that particular file that is being referred to because this is it was delivered to the department of justice or the request the attorney general and the

assistant attorney general criminal division and to the best of my knowledge and we did not have this fall and less some of the material was delivered at the working level from the director of security at the cia to the alexandria field office agents who were liaison with the cia i know that from the newspaper accounts which i read about that long after i left the fbi that their lives to be some pictures a narrow forget who the individual is either under libby standing in front of but the feelings are fueling the psychiatrist dr wilbur globally and i know that i did not at any time see any such pictures and i don't know if anyone in the fbi ever saw any subject you don't know those songs my way

good morning you're convinced that the message being conveyed it was a message from president as it related to lose the house because well my answer the president gave them in order to give me those files no sir i testified that they were that i believe them to be acting under colorado operation in their official capacity i had no reason not to believe that i was meeting rooms that meeting was arraigned senator to the best of my information either and that eleven seventeen am hopeful corlette morning mr willie

sutton allegations and rumors of leaks coming from the fbi and the first week of that investigation or it was arranged between my secretary and researcher at a concert here and will is being held this meeting was held in mr eric owens office of the white house or so on june twenty eight he had no reason to be suspicious of it in the city none whatsoever and if the request we made was not in proper illegal on professional on an ascetic non but then by july the sixth because of intervening activities you you've got suspicious i got suspicious when i saw the waters lean back in that bad overstuffed chair of mine in my office and present time is dead and say it mention any more those kids kicked me around

that coupled with is the occupation in that meeting with his so you could see it you're welcome thank you that wasn't in the united states and i was when the president called me and when i listened repeatedly asked them all or is it the president talked with him about this so i think that he and i were i don't think we were

suspicions human rights then night senator i i was a pretty busy guy working eighteen to twenty hours of the unit that i was in you know thinking about those two files all the time that's i believe that you believe that was to be in the tournament and trying to involve cia was doing so called coral i certainly it then i have no other alternative but to believe that investigates wanted to quote doesn't want to either sixty seven you're being mortally wounded this was i felt an talking with general motors that he was going to be asked to write me a letter saying that there was cia interest in ontario and oliver had i not interview

those two gentlemen that is the reason it was the spirit of a future act and that's why subprime the mortally wounded us to try wasn't i apologized to men or do you believe that the folkloric i believe that he was going to be directed by someone even specify thing i got was please hear this and i drew from that time my own interpretation to the john being with whom i had been dealing in talking about the cia an eloquent who had caused me to cancel my meeting with mr thompson general world whether gender diversity mr dean was never interviewed because quite frankly center and everyone investigation thought he was on assignment we're working with a moment practically on a daily basis even if it was

approximately one was that he felt that he was on your side we kept working with him and when the president did not respond in any way then when the concerns that i have to retire suspicions wendy's a suspect that there's the bebop all so when the jubilee in the midst of the marketing the first indications senator certain was he was a monumental event that was monday march twenty six one two mice that came in with regard to an article that appeared that we can and i believe that with the los angeles times concerning allegations that mr mccourt was making concerning anyway and last year in the league

this was a man in the league this guy's yet the iraqis have previously testified that comes a viper skills that various assistant directors if you will exactly it was about the ebola virus that's what he says after the meeting mr wallace yes it was sort of the interview was this i don't know was it because it was conducted by the ceo all this interview i personally second there's an important enough for you and he's right

mike there was an awful lot of us my guest is reporter amenable when did you become a member of the justice department i think the seventies you know the december seven nineteen seventy eight i was sworn in december fourteen and then that time from nineteen seventy eight to a service is acting director of the fbi where you are can handle classified material very sick as acting director of the fbi where

you were to handle classified for those things things are not stamped things secret top secret confidential to any great extent that was to manage some very very small portion just because you ask i don't know until nineteen seventy three at a look at that invites all these would be if it was that it has been concern myself so i

know well for the movie you know nations investigation division experience as a general court martial there's been a lot of intelligence when these babies were given to fall as ultimate destruction with your background in at a voter id do that you might've been called on to obstruct justice knows it did not occur to me at all that i

had no reason to believe that i was engaged in a sense that i do not believe so to date and i know that that the communities that i saw was certainly not on watergate evans when the papers were destroyed and the fbi used it than all of the cars were opening of the papers all because of a piece of the energy that was a lot i think that i probably are at the thought that the paper was destroyed but i can say as a factor that it was i don't know it was that was the only remember new much as i can the fbi will

to balance it in my desk into the little things like that and talking about classified through no i did not just the normal bible what is the sentiment mr ray and this morning and a vanishing land trends and you responded that you have approximately sixty five means with respect to these see it and correct it's a common sentiment i mean he's

sometimes in conjunction with you we are going to be i mean with respect to the white house i don't know exactly how they were developed that i rather suspect they stem from the fact when we first found out that was employed there we wanted to find out who employed him now and go talk to that individual to find out what their procedures employed and what were his duties were you know so i think it so this is it i am relying heavily

on my memory now and the best evidence of this would be at the three of the human cell going back to being ended how many talented you say he's been called to tell you not to pursue the planned interview with mr barry oh and most of your gains june the twenty second and july the sixth tolosa i would say perhaps a just a guess about a dozen times and that was discussed and that request was made in our communities and how many times did mr helms tell you that there was no cia involvement that specific mandates to the june twenty second

conversation because my other conversations were directed to last a specific question for example the conversation conversations i had him on twenty seven square asking specifically there's no and he said no companies that means if you have witnessed debate must've felt the train june the twenty second and july sixth when you call this mcgregor twenty three my soul's three days did you get everything best for the state of

the investigation that was going on from other people in the fbi during those meetings or any other means not at the portland at all how you keeping up with the state of the investigation and then that period of time there were these initial twenty eight i guess did you think that mr dean wilkening to persistent in his request that too not that they're so the interview with mr barry white and earth and nest gobbling it was beginning to resist

he says that circumstances existed confusion that you just won't even continue to request that you not pursue this interview on interrogation even after you had told him that the cia had assured you that there was no danger of involving the cia in mexico is not correct that's correct now you were talking to juvenile homeland mr felton mr bates with respect to investigations they were meeting you and you were going over the state of the investigation now did

you like it that that being for assistance was actually at designing to something with respect to this investigation and the reason that didn't is that we're investigating so i can truthfully say that we didn't get that excited about it except to say that these leads are going to be covered eventually and we continue to work closely with the sole exception of interviewing individuals concerns of them what was the basis for you including gena workers at the president fb fb

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