1973 Watergate Hearings; 1973-08-06; Part 3 of 6

it's been as of this episode father the fbi will show the extent of the investigation why don't you think those living on libyan hot i don't know so many times and i wonder if it were the agents on finding people that they were an interview but then i ask the question did the agents asked the question ask the question what is going on put in

another way perhaps the reason why it didn't lead me on that those two is because there was a massive cover up involved and people were not talking about not telling the truth and that that included is going to fight you know so it's been like and what is sacred it's a lot of things that he said and they say is that no one to suspicious that necessitate is with the research

the pentagon papers national security i believe in that at age seventy nine this week thank

you that's right well as i said the information national security there is a sense of security in terms of the

pacific ocean i think the music that addressed it because we have these were part of the classification know i presume a second look at the iowa world security procedures within the pages as this bill this is it newspapers want to respond my best recollection is that receive information on june twenty five you haven't

given thomas cromwell co managing destroy these papers why did you wait six months that's a question senator and wait and it's one that i've thought about a great deal in my own thinking at the time was that that was no idea that these papers in my possession and i was going through i don't like to admit this but i didn't even know at that time the league to loretta wastebaskets under my desk in the office of the acting director of the fbi that i get fixed in my mind to make these bakers with me to my home the facilities and that was my thinking of one who just prior to running to rifle through a ripple through the papers is that it works at that i opened senator to be

it was and it was bad and i read it and then i really i cannot live in uncertainty at all remember the precise words acceptance at you senator avoided the south vietnam and it had to do with the assassination president kennedy administration officials promoting a thing that assassination of the nixon administration i don't know this is what i was told that moment lynch who get a suspicious

that something that they thought you would be political dynamite and politically embarrassing i presume to be present administration up to that kennedy is as possible senators and they knew that i did not become suspicious because at that point in time i thought that a happy hour and working assistance do you have an answer those events not quite justified through that i think senator graham is questioning was general will say unit mr dean has said his general august recount this conversation with the city when does that being asked now is

that the cia will bail and for money but he suspects and i said that it wasn't only that i didn't want to do the same thing when the process of papers ins says it was a difference between the two things have transpired in the twenty sixteen general was thought that point in time that he could not give me a directive and writing an invitation to meet eased an ally was unforgiving that means that somebody is going to order him and dozens of bodies did you feel it was something that it would be

reasonable to expect the president of the united states who request you through his subordinates destroys sensitive papers which were falling and that saved one suspected in the watergate break in i testified earlier in response to questions from senator tom i made the assumption that these deep what were the powers that they're all but i also said that i can't say that i know is that they received a direct order from the president in the united states to call that railroad aren't telling the world is ill served in the navy and is that it was a request of you the commission of a kneeling a lot that's a pretty broad question senator inouye and i'm

thinking of someone that operations and thinking of some other things we get to the classes a little perhaps i'm thinking particularly like the madness of oriental but implicitly without question well one thing what those those areas where there's a very sensitive to the privilege claims that the president was right question you do something with that testified that the president was requesting that that hasn't been the thrust of artists who have testified that you have a song that the orders come from the chief executive today that i assume that these men are within their party absolutely afraid

for the president to his supporters about to commit and you need a lot i think that i may have testified earlier that if i had said i want a writing from a president united states to do this and i wanted that but i didn't have that senator in a way that was no reason for the time i was not that suspicious was just so was born reporter who has deniability sir i don't know because i don't know about the practice of deniability and refers to earlier testimony here but i had never heard that you live within the department of justice now a larger point of that this year you had a conversation caught on a conversation with the president you just testified that when the president is that it happened and by going to do that investigation you said it really revealing what they're giving much as i thought it was time to

put that on the record so does the remaining olive activity in july six thousand are you suggesting that the president put this on tape now the senator in a way i didn't know that these conversations are being fake but nevertheless i had that eerie feeling that the president is reminding me of something and walk that was my reaction but at that time i didn't know that sir now that i have a feeling that i was being reminded of something and the only thing that i could think that was the license photo i mean you know but because of

it i was one final question business on whether they're ridiculous question and that way it is a lot people have suggested that there are certain houses with cyanide in this system and the fbi investigators are you will be vulnerable i hesitate to say no because i'm a lot of them but when you when you say senators signed it in their system quite sure i haven't read about on and i'm on the equally certain that that was nice

he checked to see whether or not a request to investigate the midway i do not those individuals i cannot answer that question usually they investigated for patients what i said with a hundred dollar bills in a position i don't know whether the dmv i was curious about senator i can the incident i can say is that that period of time i was there was a

life in connecticut and i don't know whether directly came over forty fbi to interview or not i really don't know you but i just want to think about this can you recollect for the contents of those other vegas nv on one of those senator leahy said they were onions and poppy is after reading the atm cablegram you about curious about another big joe said i was not an identity to testify today what was and i wish i could you know

sen allen on michael and i still do it that it is the intensity on the basis of what i saw living on this i think they need one i believe it was a giant even turn over everything in our own safe because of inspectors at the fbi you're saying that just five years earlier and that it was no problem legal and yet human operators a lot of these men raped by public secret to destroy these three

years no i was not his and i'm not in the city at this point senator in a way that it was proper rest of it because i know now that it was about that time to consider that problem and i did not like those questions were not raised in my mind center in a way because on the basis of my training in dealing with the office of president when i was on the united states navy i read this and i reviewed the people that i respected and i have no reason to raise any suspicions that you have have been somewhat uncertain waiting six months in which the united states is that is a conclusion that medical center one twenty six months in any way at all the burdens and i knew i had been

because i had no facilities the destruction of congress where my apartment and i did not know that those two baskets under my desk and the fbi will burn boss surprise bitch the committee will stand in recess after lunch senator montoya you last gray about his dealings with john dean a few days after the watergate burglary all the television coverage of the senate watergate hearings will continue after a pause for a station identification on average coverage of these hearings is provided as a public service by the member stations of pbs and public broadcasting service the fb the

point and that continues its

coverage of hearings by the senate select committee on presidential campaign activities here again correspondent jim lehrer senator from new mexico now resumes the questioning of grey the political novel he was a teen mr grey this morning you recounted the have different that fate of communication with the way how much of the month and then also with then even a woman i believe that yeah first contact you had with respect to watergate decades was on january are

doing the twentieth when you're receiving call from mr erlichman informing you that are being would handle the investigation that's correct that's it then on june twenty seven you made a telephone call to mr helms of the cia we did that or you know the twenty five thousand dollars in the bank account

tv news with this debate is the assistant director in charge of the division and it was following that meeting that i thought oh mr helms seldom of our thought that we may be looking into the cia operation that was one of the theories that we answer now why did you get into the investigation into the discovery of a bank account and the overt involvement in this money transaction so soon had to have received a request for this

information to be obtained or two it was on the money as it was trying to trace the money that was found on independence and we have learned that it had gone through the atlanta federal reserve bank and the philadelphia federal reserve bank at least the serial numbers with the prefix is c and i believe and we were trying to run down that money as part of our investigation and that's how we came across me and also for the fact that we had subpoenaed the reporters bank accounts they're in miami what do you think a cia operation if only it had been meeting with his band on the us

every day and that although we know the people we cannot figure this one out but there is no cia involvement in nineteen eighty nine to be or not his attention and it also than twenty five thousand dollar check which was associated with the nfl i believe it does scheduling of our interviews in the various stages of a case that that we and the fbi were considering and i suppose there is that we are not hearing him on any one particular theory but i think it does for

instance statement previously that there was no cia involved it the goal is to be in that evening leading role you know on film the twenty thirteen i believe you received it through telephone calls or had to telephone communications with family one of these was an eleven or six am i and it was very nice to be here on a raised the idea that if

you persisted in your efforts to investigate a mexican money chain that you would be uncovering or become involved in the cia operation that's right nguyen on that tune in twenty thirteen that were that there that morning he had the white house the rain has to be one and usa today columnist dean and he you know you win a point that's it these

are iraqis then into nineteen rest of the crew to find out if you had scheduled an appointment of general and have you actually met with a very welcome and it was that there's an event in waters delivered the message to you that there was no cia involvement and you did not know that this visit was coming from the white house so that meeting he indicated to me that if we continue their investigation we would be not to pursue it to uncover some cia assets or thank you as threats and he also mentioned agency agreement so many also mentioned that if we persisted in our investigative efforts out of the border we wouldn't cover

cia covert activity and that sense we have thank you i think that this was kind of strange for general motors to be telling you this one mr helms i told you the day before that there was no cia involvement a second because it was a subject that came up quite a few times with regard to whether or not the right and really knew a lot and was doing in the cia we discuss this compartmentalization we also discuss the possibility that it wasn't the same information on only to the white house in connection with this particular passage well yeah the question

today and yesterday you may be wearing as those i did not and i don't know i don't think the thought never entered my mind to the deputy director of the cia along those lines we're going to be it was important for the director of the critical question that only senator montoya my dealings with the people from the cia i asked her if you questions and looking back on it this was one of the mistakes i made for example i didn't i denounce pearl mr helms any questions at all in the house me not to interviews to see the art well there's no i didn't have those kinds of suspicions at that time where you were directing this investigation you were having some staff meetings with charity for inspections <unk> debate and the rest of the investigatory of staff orders of the fbi here in washington

it didn't occur to you that this was a very important ingredient in your investigation results because i immediately following that visit telephone mr bazan gave him instructions that there was some cia involvement here is that we should proceed very gingerly in very discreetly and carry out the investigation now i'm also continue to try to trace these checks really correspondent banks but they're all about interviewing mr alvaro in nineteen fifty three oh mr dean and told him that you had agreed to vote but the fbi investigation the investigation i never

thank you having me on there's a problem we were proceeding very gingerly like that because in the early years i must have been called you know approximately eighteen between june the twenty second and july the sixth when you talk to the president now most of these cause or concentrated on being it prevailed on you not to go through with the position mr gary or on this trip all over didn't this indicate to you mr gray that there was an attempt to cover up emanating from the white house knows that not because all

along leading discussing are various theories have considered that there was the possibility that this was a cia covert operations the cia money changing political operation a political money chain if i had any thoughts of thing it was a zealous council trying to avoid political investment to his president but i did not really have any suspicions on that i can do the white house as the main presenter at the time as the president was a costume

why are the interrogation as businesses with me whether or not he was president mr chairman at each interview i cannot state and certainly i have do you see the report interviewed the fbi for you too now when the only employees of the committees to re elect the president when irrigated committee council president once as innocent thing occurred when we're interrogated people at the democratic national committee in september without real and find out through a commitment once through ok with a conversation between you and i knew he was taken to your conversation no sir i have no knowledge of that part of the state he says you're going to go just a moment when all the senate judiciary committee you said who defended vigorously right

now for the president of the use of this employee thank you now who are you the answer to that question he wears yellow yellow fbi employee very committed to reelect president and the mario of that malice in his testimony don't you think that would have on the time factor what they've witnessed would say well also it's the preference for the fbi and has been the prevalence of the fbi that have these interviews without the

presidents of the us as an alum of the witnesses who work all the reason we interviewed by the fbi in the battle for the lawyer polio committee and they call up fbi has been you know as are those with committee to reelect president and now you've like this complex mean what's great watergate and that made it and so i don't like some of the evidence you're actually likely that commit harm and that the main city of the envelope that way there with these witnesses like a medicine didn't want to be interviewed with the watergate with you know testimony and as it used to be added

thank you this could very well be that it's something you know that i can't say with any certainty are back in connection with the presence of a counselor interviews this is a phenomenon that the fbi is encountering more and more and we desire of course not take the interviews in that manner but sometimes are placed in a position that if we want the interview we're going to take it in that manner not get it now you met with and be in anbar they gave you rule all that was the twenty eight in the age of

obamacare yesterday i had a discussion about the media materials delivered the mystery and save on the morning of june twenty seven now this time the unstated to you it gave you that that had nothing to do with it mr that he said more than that from a poet that was included among the things that he did say that and you know that to be all and red wine clear impression on my mind as now was just that anecdote about the un this will be in the senate as you all very close together

eighteen to twenty four inches of nato all you get up take those not within the organization and laid on you are are no documents with it five foot accumulated information that might not as a good musician our new oakland won the league says and you discover there were state department program markup as severe as they did and you could tell and now that penn state whatever they're wearing played live in that indicated though that though our system actually with the regime of that candidate oh oh a patent yesterday massey university my recollection of those were

they knew of the contest and fall of an investigation that this that that these you come out of it they follow and that one had been out of the most violent had been kept on the white house they will all batman months after he had been to get them guilty of inaccessible or rather the opposite of a thousand words so a cat the first i knew about any very leery dr ellsberg's psychiatrist was when i read about it in the newspapers mr chairman so i don't know that i had that particular information that you are specifying here now we've been all that well go talk to them well that was them amputated always good morning a sign that it was that

it was the person that we wanted to interview and we had tried to talk with him sir and you're going after him a little round they've been out of the state department for them the cost until are all also come up or bristle escalate this reflection upon the kennedy administration i don't know that we have the i ever determine that in its investigation mr chairman it seems to me that this is something that but i recall coming up much at the fact that we never liked that it was a very peculiar long man who have been implicated in a barber infant yemen might use them we want to be kept on the white house payroll and the government custody of state department of state department cable graham and knowing what i know now and not knowing it at that time mr chairman there's no question about it was not proper we're going on now the white house payroll apple

that animated we've learned about this is that this nation the market with thus far the the fbi discover that i don't i can't justify with any certainty to that that i think then i'll be an investigative file there are indications it is time sheets were initial by mr colson i don't know whether you knew that those seventy three issues but i think that there's an indication now for that is that i've always sung all reopened october restore reports major the up the holiday gift to the witnesses he interviews the witness certain however he takes his notes i don't know because that is a part of the mechanics of that i never became familiar with them i have been in on and it is my understanding for an interview decatur writes out from his notes of the

interview in which is later to be used then in court under the giants at procedures well it makes the moment leave it without fear or of what it will play all real to me this debate is that city meanwhile among the vote probably view that the bible judiciary committee about though at all putney oh yes i did testify before the judiciary committee now good at the actual make an investigation into the camp outside of hours and one hundred dollar bills thats ms has not had a possession when he was killed only have or things that came from all beyond that i'm intimate really determined i don't know i wish i could answer that question that i do not know the answer to vets are

long lived in nineteen seventy two hours we're caught red handed in the democratic committee that was in the watergate with the election campaign was in i don't know mr chairman that i could characterize them as nixon campaign funds we tried very diligent but even to the extent of interviewing sellers and seventy three different branch banks to private sat down with that specificity that was a direct order to get it right and i just don't know that we could find and we know that we know that the money came in that it went out and we know they came back into the committee to re elect the president whether it was the same money i don't what came out that bolton all that though this all these burdens that you've bought three cubans and in their possession at the

time out there listen to the radio still among both of the bill grew out of a miami bank account with them with all the end of the three people that in fact in the balance that mr jealous at it as you're questioning me in the affirmative we tried to prove that but unfortunately the republic national bank of miami in a girard bank and trust company in philadelphia didn't keep the serial numbers that we couldn't track it with that specificity we have a piece of the three hundred dollar bill will land bank and the low

pay maybe my information copies of the memorandum submitted to me is acting director of the fbi did not indicate that that's all i'm saying that really the banks could not be serial numbers that testimony mail true that all mexicans that without a huge bomb making back to you all oh no what we see now the committee to re elect the president is that it was and that they were the last to learn about auto market miami florida and that one audio market route act of song they all have something this one in one hundred about blt

and that purpose i sort of woke up through moms and that the second round and that these men or will workers at the moment everything you say with the one exception that we were not able to tie down the serial numbers specifically if they kept the serial numbers of the one hundred dollar bills and they told us that did not if you go on will force him i go all right on april nineteen seventy two and the location sean that will so maybe we all well

we republicans are all the awful lot as a really big that we were an agreement there that's it i mean you know and no conversations with loved it with a messed up with nemo wall that date the white house and i'm going to let him what do you do with it as you say that because i believe it gunn being on the evening of the twenty second hour indy car on the morning of the twenty thirteen mr alan bean

that was after thank you you discovered on that day that the apartment complex and above or check it existed was moment on r and b i don't know whether it was known as the answer i know that i discussed them either an evening of june twenty second hour in the telephone call june twenty thirteen yolo show that you have to follow where second comeback of all was leaderless and gray over the weekend that had an opportunity to read carefully or statements insisting of

fifty one pages the number of oscar nominations occur to me but there's one in particular that stands out with great clarity and a potential important according to my camp and i might not be exactly correct according to my account you enumerate twenty seven major items of testimony that are in disagreement between un general there are a great number of other conflicts in your testimony with that of other witnesses mr dean mr erlichman and others they're very very much internal conflicts between un general recite just a few on page seventy two state expressed by me was an effort by major by the cia fbi agreement and related

solely responsible exposing cia you have a disagreement on the conversation about the dollar burial check check but any number of other things i will burden my ten minutes allocated this examination been raging but surely are familiar with gusto how can you get this committee any assistance us by way of reconciling these conflicts between un general lesson here that area at that time and what you need he says local dna evidence clearly is that we move this week not that we located because even at that we continue to conduct investigation that are going to last in all we continue to look to the correspondent banks to see if we could find anything to senator baker was to interview mr barrow and we were continually

trying to interview mr doll party what i meant to do mr dean vogel relationship between us general where you're friendly and cordial were you antagonistic toward each other i thought the relationship was i have no reason to believe it is today do you suspect it might be less friendly and cordial after disputing i'm just getting him on twenty seven major issues i don't think so because i colin harrison uses the united states attorney's office i said that this just isn't that the way it happened and this is not to my recollection a memory of that at all in my my first says saw a newspaper article commenting on his testimony was very genuine very real your outrage it's really wanted to have a

very other few examples of what caused an outrage against that idea that he's these men apparently had a meeting at the white house and no one told me about that meeting at the white house twenty three let's move off that remote i'd like to if we have ten examine some of the other of those twenty seven years of disagreement that i have a number of other things on page four of your statement yesterday if i really didn't understand it correctly it clearly indicates that you initiated the inquiry about a possible cia and all before anyone else mentioned it to use at the correct reading of that work that way face forward says on thursday june twenty second after being raped by charles bates assistant director general investigative division regarding the latest plot was watergate it pays and undoubtedly as a result of information developed at that briefing at the local director

of the cia a total are thinking that we may be poking into a cia operation and as if you can confirm or deny this question really is whether or not anyone in the white house or the justice department or anyplace else had suggested to you that there might be a cia involvement and you should check up at that point at that point nosedive that was one of the theory is that we develop our cells within the fbi as of the people who are working or the people involved having been formally running cia and they asked him to find out how quickly did you learn that these people were involved to cry sometime previous and i believe at the time in question was still involved in an insulting piano so this year of my early reading the committee which

indicated that as of june twenty one in june twenty two it appeared to us in our discussions that there could be a cia operation involving pretty clearly it that part of your statement on page four when you talk to director helms i think this is the first time you talked about that's pretty clearly at that time helms is not we are we don't have any cia how do you reconcile that salinger lived owen friday june twenty four percent four and two that you're likely to uncover some cia assets or sources if we continued our investigation the mexican money but what that does to me in ways that conflict in the state and they did as a conflict an interview that i did as a conflict

and i attributed to what we later discussed in our meetings in the fbi on monday and on july thirty compartmentalization which is a lead to exist within the cia whether it exists or not i don't know and i don't know whether any people in the fbi knows about whether it exists or not and whether the right and always knows there's like june twenty third nineteen seventy two that anyone in the white house also oddly fbi tried to suggest to you that there was this meeting and in twenty thirteen the us has to be that you don't that evening meeting of june twenty second telephone call on the morning of june twenty thirteen and i said then and there is cia involvement that the cia tell us the reason for these questions are will has begun to appear in the allegations made him a legitimate area of inquiry to decide whether or not the white house or anyone connected with the white house or the

crp tried to plant the idea that the cia was ball and a white extent of any cia or anyone in the cia tried to father that appear that's right you talked about being being suggested there might've at the new top the waters waters that you very well may undercover cia operations that and us and in essence what happened up to this point that is correct really with one exception that i promised to be a medic there is cia involvement you let them tell us so mr beamon general altars were suggesting year there was a handball my director elmendorf told the other one appears on page thirteen of years the theory that director helms called

i don't see that they don't have that my note that at one point director helms called you and asked you not to interview active cia men are alive there and john cason so that was in a telephone conversation senator baker i believe which occurred on june twenty eight i'm sure it was so you know why dont tell you were you in fact investigating these people are it note pad and he wanted to interview we were going to either one of those missions i didn't at the time he called me no sir i did not know but i've since learned that your agents were about to do that and that triggered home centers to support you well i am saying that your director helms call i accepted his word you indicate that what i'm waiting for is why

don't i don't notice that you might mean there was a reason for i'm trying to suggest that you not interviewed these two men sen gregg i don't know but i know that i also have a telephone note in november which indicates that director tom said call my number two man standing by the number two men at that late date that the director helms was going to call assistant attorney general peterson regarding the interview paul wagner to see if it could i don't know you know who these two people are huge honor it sounds far i do not know who john caswell is and i have since learned mr wagner and i believe i'm correct in saying this because i learned from the newspapers i believe that he was gentle cushions executive system wesley general questions executive assistant at that time

i don't those are available are either of these names show up in conjunction with the watergate affair yes i've since learned that they were those names i believe i'm correct in saying this i know i'm correct in saying it was regarded as well i believe i'm correct in saying it with regard to why those names were in one of the notebooks a little pocket telephone at this type of notebooks that we uncovered and i believe that it was mr hans notebook but that would have to be subject to verification another positive has custody of that nature are bestsellers sunni fbi does because those leads was sent out from the washington bailout your choir director know why he did not want a wider guest will interview know so i did not i am dealing with people from the cia i did not ask the questions along those lines separately