1973 Watergate Hearings; 1973-07-20; Part 2 of 4

as bell possibility of it and you have a very interesting statement on pollination commencing the morning of june seventeen when he became a lawyer information was in and if you're going to an unfortunate situation the situation which i was precluded from acting according to the dictates of my personal desires are anthems situation in which government memo only horrible assault was one of not becoming educated and to conduct a lot about what it is the

new york times what's not going to raise up your personal desires or interests know certainly don't think and a lot of economists i don't think that's a fair reading maybe to me because you're a proponent for acting according to the dictates of political conscience to serve my conscience is one thing and ethics of my profession demanded that time something else obtaining the information they think of your profession i don't think that statement indicates that's what i was trying to make a mr liddy impart information may june twenty first which had it been important in the less than two months

before i would have had him arrested i was a former assistant attorney general united states my boss was the former attorney general united states my best friends was the attorney general united states and he was important information that may in the case not only that crime but a series of other crimes perpetrated by people in the white house that i've worked for now that's all i was trying to save my being drawn inexorably into this situation proves conscience even if you felt that these activities were at the potential of having the president of the united states to decide the ethics of your profession require you to keep a little senator i mean i made the

man i worked on the rival the widening of applause he imparted to me a knowledge of other felonies as i read while i was duty bound not to disclose that conference on the mornings that data into loneliness really have to oh i think i probably would've been subject to disciplinary action severe disconnection for say i have never practiced for a whole i don't know how people react to these situations they carry these things in their mind they can't disclose that this wasn't no debate the ethics of their profession prevented him from disclosing information ought to bonds blew wanted to discuss this witness the mitchell that day precondition to my

information and plans are discussed this with most immigrant no sur o no test it with anyone else but mr mitchell and was mr mitchell report was affixed to keep the guns out customers will have to speak for itself the committee on june seven apparently one of the leading services committee we still believe that you were also was the living those serves to explain it is counsel for the committee and he was an employee of the committee i told him that as an

employee of the committee speaking in confidence although it could not maintain this is present attorney in that iowa poll has confidence in the lab and he one of those information on the potential of injuring your major climate committee accepted so i did not keep myself i told that was the reason i insisted on that condition but if you're just a few months ago you would have i wouldn't have been in a position of being his attorney two months ago one of the assistant attorney general do you ever i would do i would have taken whatever procedures were necessary tissue he was brought to justice mr matt senator lowell weicker will

probe martins duties at the justice department and to enroll in the pentagon papers case for now we're going to take a break public television's coverage of the senate watergate hearings will continue after a part for a station identification a bridge to coverage of these hearings is provided as a public service by the member stations of pbs and public broadcasting service fb the play

and that continues its coverage of hearings by the senate select committee on presidential

campaign activities you again correspondent jim lehrer as we go back to the hearing's other why cares about question robert martin in your testimony you indicated that we went to the miami convention would you suggest that to i think a new writer and many others that you want to have a memorandum you would be glad to write a memorandum setting for your knowledge of this manner and that you were subsequently learned not to write this is i think you're referring to the conversation with mr mitchell yes i suggest that memorandum pitch and then

subsequently my correct word but not the us or even mr mitchell goes missing the findings that individual is just to turn you know i didn't think i didn't think the decision was alive when it was parked in retrospect i think he would agree with you on the situations arisen so you want to win every note and i thought that the memorandum should be prepared for his signature for the files to explain the situation as that then existed now

they'll call you also talked to mr mcgregor at the miami convention gets a new medications right there matters series you'll hear about it came in the context senator of his having made a series of statements regarding me presently employees local utility i suggested to him that there were some serious if there was a serious exposure with respect to certain poison the committee should be made aware of that and hopefully it to prevent him from making further statements that might put them in a better light steps and turned around he told me as i recall he was exhilarating on leave before i

got in the ruling that he had been assured before i took the job but no unemployment committee at that time had been involved he accepted that and he didn't want to hear any more about it works and yet at that moment too that such assurances that given the word that i think a very important what i told him should've indicated that two of mr and it grew you sir i try as occasions prior to that time and i think that was the last attempt to communicate with the humans do by that time i was pretty much out of order is wrong

twenty twenty twenty four three years call pentagon papers into the kissinger taps and you're handling of internal security provisions for years nineteen seventy one i'm not i'm not really have these things

and you want a lead late september someone was far earlier than that just to mention that's right that's right for his victims i try to relate as best i can legally that they were not merely ordinary channels earlier in his office safe that he his opinion was that he was going to be terminated pretty soon he was concerned about what would happen to them and they fell on the possession of his successor at that time he also indicated to the what was he referring to is the river in a while for a lot of national security

surveillance that were in his position did he have that time indicated also to you as to who possessed the summaries of the law i don't recall specific conversations senator idea because of the number of them i was insured their salaries and correspondents in order to reduce our prize initial communication we did you then go to the attorney general years after his recommendation on this that i've been

asked recommendation i don't think i really related to the attorney general what mr solomon totally and a dj you don't give you responses to how to handle mr sullivan oh no sir what it has to do with islam mr sullivan is a friend of mine and i think he probably had injury a quicker access to me than anyone else on the court and he feels this is the slight rather than clinton is the media's true director of the fbi based on what he told me he was concerned about the voters what were those moments my best recollection is that he thought the director might use as i said

these logs to maintain his position as director of i don't know letters to sell his recollection of it is that that's my recollection and to give you the wind will use these laws to maintain that i've given to the best i can see them with the substances you're not going to resolve prior to health or evening the president to get any portion of the materials of the you know most union in your meeting with the president on this and what did you describe the president as

the situation believe i simply told in response to his question with mr silva hallway and did you tell the president that he received no instructions from the attorney general or that's not in any way first i told the attorney general and the next thing i didn't hear from the attorney general and the next thing i knew it was sometime later the attorney general at that time as i recall as the american bar association convention in england in london and while the order jamie material for this album did you know at that time the time of those instructions of the material being handed over to why

mr sullivan included more than just material held one official be very specific we're centrally it hasn't been easy foreign minister orban for example had none of the summaries another correspondents based on these attacks lead getting in there is a procedure that we're very specific and martin was not be an object sought to assure that walter hill's connected with these attacks were collected by one man with the song to be turned over to be turned over in the

poster i was given was given the obligation of checking with dr kissinger and with mr holder want to ensure that they have copies of their salaries but they were never collected or deliberately they collected wants to sell no circuit so the only thing that only task that was assigned to mr sabo with the handover to you what he personally nothing else that's right you indicate there was a correspondence course

martin i think if we go over the testimony given in here this morning indicated there was there were some raised and possibly correspondents based on those laws mr sullivan told me that there were blogs some ways and correspondence in his invisible in his possession years and nothing turned over to you came from any other source except for his own personal hero of our euro correct yes if you live coverage of writing etc maybe i could help you i wish i had a song here i'm sure that you have a song here so he created the first and leila describe what his orders were is or anything further i don't wanna leave and say no i don't want you

to speculate on hearsay information your first and just you're telling this committee you returned to mr solomon ordered and turn over those materials in his possession relatives of the kissinger times i didn't order him i told him what my instructions were in et cetera i believe i told him that for my instructions came from i may not divide one mayor said the attorney general i'm not sure my recollection is that i told him that i thought the president and those were my instructions and so that at that moment in time you have nothing further to do with empty out of his drawers new materials are generally receive that you receive those materials like that notion that not only when you listen i don't recall some time later

one that blends morning he didn't have but my conversation with them took place and miles or was sometime later in a matter of hours or in a day event today lucky if there wasn't he wasn't using planes i don't think you would have thought anything of it

so i did not expressions of urgency believe that you see in those on the part of a cell you think they're rather strange that these go well you just materials and over to the director of the fbi on purpose was take custody martin i can't say that i didn't know the dispute between mr sullivan was he says

now believe i believe mr solomon assessment and i would say the president made a judgment and a judgment based on has to solve this and you try and recollected again as to recruit on the laptop when your request and that's all when you receive the troops from our campus it made some reference to the fact that you contacted certain individuals to try to get the journals wrote the same set of takes off on my own there's a list of all the some areas that had been sent to dr kissinger in the present they're the only ones to receive some marines i

i'm not sure it was question about this i think the attorney general received some of all of the prey isn't wanted to make sure that each of these people had in their possession summaries that had been sent to them by the fbi you haven't not just her mr paul helmke of the president and i requested idea mr i believe i gave mr kohlmann a list of the documents which he used to i'm supposed to recede for him to check against what he had in his possession believe i went to see dr an autopsy dr kissinger john o'hagan is the president and they'd check their files so this was not really a minor matter this was a round of trying to pull together

all aspects of what we call the kissinger take is that we are for it wasn't find out if he had all of his son so i didn't like anything i simply gave dr kissinger or you're a copy of the summer is a list of these stories by daines that they were to receive and i believe general haider while dr kissinger nih results went out and checked to see if they had a hack everything they were supposed to do and that was the end of my discussions with them as one was the the matter was closed out as between yourself mr saul when he delivered them when he delivered what he had an unusual route that yes

or you know i wonder if we might not consider very carefully statement you made earlier wrote your contacts list are living on talking not about her contacts in late at night a real context mr liddy endured the past is the says the attorney general of the internal security division i use it in one instance where ensemble with a treaty you remember the cohesion that contact with this would you please try and recollect as to whether or not you had many meetings with mr liddy run out of the pentagon papers investigation i believe mr liddy came to my office

with lester young on one occasion they have been more of the bestselling political they were acting as a liaison with the state department defense department just wear white house was very concerned about the pentagon papers case i'm not in any way knowledge why you have many illegal activities you conservatively also consider that moment i'm perfectly legitimate activity report now an obsession meetings with disney a number of those meetings with a concert hall you indicate now but haven't won ensure that might not have been more than one meeting in his capacity as a liaison on the pentagon

it or i can't it may have been over there more than once that i know that he was making the rounds of state defense and justice that time we were working we were short deadlines for this report to this circuit court to lift the court to the circuit court to the supreme court and something less than three weeks and a la saddam or the heads of the national security agency i worked with and others somewhere people i was working with bill macumber from state for buzz heart from the fence and we had all kinds of people going from adults mr libby was there

during that turmoil just as it was the headquarters for the operation i don't mean to be unfair to is my knowledge that there were many staff meetings just of the major issues that you know i'm not trying to be inclusive i recall him i don't recall that any old staff the keynesian that he came to my office was with freddie are going to get a report on how we were doing the pentagon papers case as i recall your i believe your references today millions guess he was on that because just then you say well no you drop back in time and

indicators to whether or not to use even the instructions personally from the president on the murder ballad on it i can't we should recall that there was a communication between the president i was made aware of the extreme concerned the president i recall the meeting in san clemente most of that meeting concerned his expressions to me about the fact that his variability the government is threaten the peace of the world was that he talked about solving essential strategic and limitation treaty was the most important thing that faces nation if we are to preserve a piece of the world than that information from the national security council relating to the american position of salt

i've been in the possession of the russians before a particular lady and it was in in that context he expressed a very grave concern about not only saw but about his ability to govern if they could not maintain the confidentiality of the white house sees this as an example many meeting or the roundup of the kissinger traces that's the only one now and so far the pursuit of the pentagon papers case is was that something that there was a continual communication between the white house nobody we find work out a staff arrangement between state defense and justice we were the courts prosecuting the case but the

art to constituent clients with the state department the defense department you know memos were regularly send over your signature on the pentagon papers case to both mr weiland jim crow i sent a memo to the attorney general i was prepared for my signature and i signed copies went to them i would not think that unusual you it says operators but i don't recall standing at the imam was over and if one was requested i think i probably would have complied

maybe not with revelations of today i matters and the attorney general has tons of the white house ms moyo no going there

in california today and with respect to the press when it was on the way to the airport and that is correct well that's interesting it really is a conversation with the airport what were some of your nineteen seventies

and it was on that trip we're engaged in some of the closer and when you listen to the present and possible involvement to you the first information he gave me was in and i'm not sure it was a bank run but it was a rule next to the meeting room where the political well in your interview secret interview that plays out with ms miller why you invested to the airport hotel as i recall and seven it was again a slight

pr problem and they didn't go into it any deeper i tried to be white indicated i think by gesture that he could not discuss the matter further in the presence of a national committeeman from california who was in the car with that for just a guess it's not then you went into the hotel yes sir and there you indicated you had everything from mr gooden yes sir and what kind of reading did you received from him i think i really do you want me to repeat what i said yesterday well let me just ask you in everything about me but it had been a brutal mr bailey no sir i don't think so yet he discussed the employment in the senate to the extent that

with respect to watergate not with respect toward that he had discussed with you the intelligence assignment of mr lilley though he did describe it as an intelligence and it was right he's in charge of dirty tricks like that in the jury dirty tricks at that time like advanced let her go now you were as an inquiring lawyer asked him to amplify that particular phrase or phrases i don't know that well it is getting more details the best of my recollection he indicated that he should have suspected that mr libby would do something like that

and then you let the hotel and then i went back to the beverly hills hotel and on this trip do i understand that you were accompanied by mr mitchell that's right and this record and then you on your way to the beverly hills hotel discuss anything about the making as i said i'm not sure we may have we haven't had a lot of my knowledge a talk i had had enough to talk to mr mitchell since i had the briefing mr mitchell was a perpetual motion he arrived there it was well one of the natural things that you just mentioned that's exactly what jenkins yes i said that i'll be very natural except we had we were in a car with a strange

driver i do indeed i understand that maybe you didn't have a greeting on the latter yes my recollection and that it was there that day we started discussing a public relation to question witnesses who were at first wrote to you and then try to bring about some kind of oppressed they know the news a reference to a very busy one regular universe i wanted to discuss a meeting at the beverly hills hotel and estimates we did discuss their a pr problem that's not mr mcgrew is referring to what

specifically what specifics i can recall specific says caution what you must though because you were twenty you were subsequently tried to advise the contents of the press i have all the facts that mr libby had given the answer that came for mr libby you need to tell me what was it about it the pope why do you call being the devil you know don't know a grieving

that mean i think i relate all the facts came out mr giuliani's telephone conversation with mr ladies good morning that way the only subject but libby's i said would not talk about forming only thing he wanted to convey to me who is an urgent desire for me to return to washington you see a cat is being with us sir james mercer what was really unique i don't recall the ten of the statement was to the effect that

lead blakey and was unauthorized mr mccourt was the head of a record associates he had other clients and that the committee did not condone that type of conduct that certainly had no place in american politics than words well what why that statement and you disagree i disagreed with that portion of it that indicated that the court associates might have been in the employment of a climb when i was aware of the fact that mr mccourt was devoting his fulltime to the affairs of the committee to reelect president and i didn't feel that mr mitchell should sign is hard to have that statement issued under his name when we had facts to the contrary martin and other nations

we have no plans for this report was of such a nature that i didn't feel that mr mitchell should sign that pressures in the form that was then so in view of the situation and you knew mr mitchell was aware of just your opinion this was a dishonest at that statement i have been and it certainly was an overstatement based upon the facts were available i felt mr mitchell now what you any good also that you were appointed counsel on that particular day for the cia we have by mr mitchell i think he told me he wanted me to take legal responsibility for the repercussions richard

mourdock of the crp on tora bora working for the war so i think it slanted toward a plea on behalf of the crp for forty eight episodes well he knew at that time that he was the council and then we learned that over his job he was not cancelled that when he was counseling and then also owns of the finance committee where he was counsel for the finance committee i believe that they're trying to answer now and the department of justice that is when the military investigation was launched and you knew that he

was involved in the us where they can win this vote yesterday is there and is your involvement as responsible to justice you need to take your as lainey ok i'm not going to take to represent the regime you said yes sir well that does not indicate that they had assumed an environmentalist and they are a relationship which was inconsistent with the biggest role that the department justice with respect to the us workplace senator the biggest surprise i ever received in my life was i think i told you was the disclosure that he made to me after i told him he could pop them in confidence

the piece but then you know wasn't your appointment inconsistent with they disavow that were going out that the ip nine eleven for snow had any complicity in the watergate affair with mending fences senator i believe i doubt seriously if an attorney for a client and disavow is plant says when you it's received information in the only basis for knowing that the statement is not true is information he obtained and reducing capacity well the plant going to make mr martinez that you knew more about the involvement of these people like you though this committee did not i knew more i tried to

tell this committee is candidly and is frankly as i can everything i know well did you know any involvement as a result of your conference has witnessed at any involvement on the part of any reason that the white house no other than what i've stated with respect to mr strong respect mr erlichman was just on the agreement of the minister poland that mentions and you inquired him recently as june the possibility that someone in the retreat who had it in mind that they would be arrested to embarrass the committee to re elect the president you just like that yes i raised that as a

possibility yes i was this the source of some of the stories that are circulated in the press now is that what his possibilities with respect throughout the malaysians know i think i learned that in the press the press was calling in such a job descriptions of that at the time are almost comical now going to have with the interior of lehman's tomato do that he was involved in that as a yes sir and that said mr hunter also have a prominent part they're yes sir i use of the group and i presume that include most of them previous testimony here that that was done was assigned to visit denver and that problem has

been waitlisted that he can do this i don't recall at mr root cause we both that he recalls a lot of huge holes in things i don't recall and i recall some things i guess he doesn't my recollection of what he said was we were the ones responsible for getting beat a beard and he also told you that he was a member of the plumbers who knew were plumbers never came up but i don't well in one context he was technically that's true tolling their group was had been operating for some considerable period of time and he did not characterize the group has hundreds and now do you have to talk to you about you knew that mr libby had been working for the government and subsequently with the crp

you also knew that was going on was also working for the white house about that time i did not serve and you knew you were the assistant attorney general and knew that the department of justice was investigating the itt matter and the white house was also interested so the press dagan syndicated and then trying to unravel the possible government involvement in the itt of there how did you actually you heard from the sydney actually reported all these details do you tell anyone in authority about this search involving an apartment in the sky and it is now in the military i reported as best i could everything he told me to mr mitchell did you report it to anyone authority to the department of justice know sir

that you feel that you feel that it was your duty to do so i was about in the department of justice is that in those individual i was no i was a private person i was representing the committee and i think that explains fully as i can my relationship at the time i talked to mr libby now with respect throughout the budget discussions with mr mitchell about the two hundred and fifty thousand dollar budget plan that you have indicated that this discussion took place in the presence of this border where there any other discussions about this particular budget presidents must mature farm mr rouleau must've been for others and such discussions

have taken place yeah when you first learned of the two hundred thousand dollars and it but levi testified on a positive to the best of my recollection my recollection changes while i'm here i think it was in the confrontation that i had witnessed a routine mr mitchell saw it could have been in california that could have been between that time in that meeting but as of right now i would say my best recollection is was immediately after we came back and it had to do with those mr lugar's statement to me that he had dispersed forty thousand dollars to mr libby my response and mr mitchell's response was to listen to the statement but it's only forty thousand of two of the two hundred and fifty thousand but

when they were sad to say twenty third twenty thirteen and then going back to get me on june twentieth the news of art was there that out at me he really respected that i stated my best recollection is that the meeting was on the twenty first it could possibly have been on the twentieth everyone has guessed it occurred on the twentieth and were assuming that was the day all i'm assuming it was a twenty four seven now assuming that it was the twentieth as three other person's of just did you were what landed there said the rig her i said i cannot recall a based upon my records i would write i speculated that it was in the morning on then you on the same day the

sea to greek mr mitchell yes and who accompanied you honestly <unk> root well that's all an act what did you i don't recall sir i think that testified that i don't recall exactly when i met with mr liddy the best recollection is that i would have told mr mitchell as soon as i could have obtained access to it it's been we do know that mr michel shortly after this meeting i call the president of the united states but what we dont know i believe senator mitchell's records your meeting point for the regime which would have coincided with my recollection that if you made a call to the president after that work

now the heck many times the last two years before the special committee what your reaction was the story mr mitchell was telling about this band that no one in the committee was in all the names and you say get to the ad council are in this tent at your personal reaction was angry and the statement being made at that time an estimate is what you mean by that when i use those adjectives and the neighbor would describe my feelings and amplify i think those adjectives feelings when statement said at the time and what state and the master

mitchell was making senator lawyers are not supposed to make judgments pass judgments are supposed to represent their clients and wait until a court makes that judge it as most lawyers and human i felt i knew what was going out was not theirs and that was difficult for me we've not been asked you to amplify these statements because they might there are possible answers might shed some light in trying to resolve a contradictory nature of the testimony that has been accused of perspective hear what it means with huge margin and

the committee has faced with the choice of selecting your testimony is against the testimony and mentions beings were most of the room with respect to some of these matters of substance and that without an asian we cannot reach a judgment so we're on an embed an impact with respect to this testing unless we want to resort to the way that testimony theory now i've asked you is this is here is a clip of questions which it might be amplify that you're out and collisions with respect on these matters and say that you have not given us more detail but i wish to thank you for your patience in my questions they can go to try to

be sensitive to prop up a puppet senators recess for a lunch break we're going to pause in a videotaped plea that the hearings public television's coverage of the senate hearings will continue after red crustacean identification on average coverage of these hearings is provided as a public service by the member stations of pbs a public broadcasting service fb fb fb