1973 Watergate Hearings; 1973-07-20; Part 3 of 4

it's both i believe senator that mr mitchell's records show meeting on the first of some duration in the afternoon which would have coincided with my recollection and if he made a call the president after that work now the head many times the last jew in your years before the special committee what your reaction was to the story mr mitchell was telling about this then that no one in the end it wasn't all the names and you say get to the committee counsel as follows are in the skin that your personal reaction was angry and torments of the statements being made at that time was to mention what'd you mean by that when i

use those adjectives and the neighbor would describe my feelings and amplify i think those adjectives feelings when statement said at the time and what statements of mr mitchell is making the servers lawyers are not supposed to make judgments as judgments are supposed to represent their clients and wait until a court makes that judge it as most lawyers and human i felt i knew what was going out was not as and that was difficult for me remember and that you can provide these

payments because they might or possible answers might shed some light on trying to resolve the contradictory nature of testimony has been infused with respect to certain subtle effect here by the same people who where it means with humans martin and the committee has faced with the choice of selecting your testimony is against the testimony and vigilance against voter lists of the room and with respect to some of these matters of substance and it without amplification we cannot reach a judgment so we're an unnamed had an impact with respect to this testing unless we want to resort to the weight of testimony theory now a rescue is this is here is a good questions which it might amplify that year and collisions with respects on these

matters and say that you have not given us more detail but i wish to thank you for your patience in missing my questions i think that will prove a point senators recess for a lunch break we're going to pause in a videotaped plea that the public television's coverage of the senate hearings will continue after baker station identification on a bridge to coverage of these hearings is provided as a public service of the member stations of pbs the public broadcasting service

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an area and ride continues its coverage of hearings by the senate select committee on

presidential campaign activities you again correspondent robert macneil picking up the testimony again senator obama's about the question robert martin anyway no question about that are you that's right regularly now claim that you i believe i've testified that he did not use the president's name and he meant it clearly applied to me

you recount a conversation and that was with some degree of caution that tried to testify testified as to my recollection of what impression he made on me or attempted to convey to me and that was that was the implication you do the president i can recall that was politically untenable and who

knows you know on what you knew about this until the republican convention is for now when the republican base in the august twelve now oh ok our political culture oh you're welcome

you're welcome four pm yes i think it does all those weekends and july thirty years i think his record he was trying to make a point

you're going to court appointment my kitchen and they're talking to mr mcgregor on occasion identical is one of consistent because of a story called a press release of the invasion you will be worse you testified about robert taylor and ms becky good albeit not going to think about the warning that president said i believe that's a fair statement said there are questions

like what no lawyer like a review of it and have your comment on the opening statement yesterday where he stays was inevitable of a climate of excessive concern over the political impact of demonstrators excessive concern over leaks an insatiable appetite for political intelligence all couples with a do it yourself white house that regardless of the law i can't comment on that in terms of your own experiences will be internal security division of the material

i can't really speak for john dean i wanted as it is because all you consider that to be factual or reduced president of the way would you know as an inevitable outgrowth of the climate of excessive concern over the political impact of demonstrators as excessive concern orleans an insatiable appetite for political intelligence or coupled with a do it yourself white house regardless of the law i would say this week to

explain concern in the government with respect to leagues certainly out of the white house there was a great concern over the demonstrations and apparently there was a good yourself a program going on in the white house disclosed by these hearings lawyer i was really know that any political intelligence operations going on and so far the committee to reelect president and you investigated this

the political intelligence gathering is set to replace the watergate break in and that as he put it that category i was aware of the watergate break in and that city was political intelligence gathering operation not yet sir and experience mr kissinger james so that raises a really down as opposed to the you know the array of demonstrators and is a lot like to relate to assess known for a few minutes you're so you're the head of the internal security division of the

justice department monday shows that western shows you love position presumably attorney general red states and in choosing hugh the position that you know lay any emphasis on you and so far as putting a halt to demonstrations and making us a prime concern of the internal security division knows it well political demonstrations was handled not in my office there was a team that had been in existence in prior to this administration involved at people from the mayor's office district police department the justice department the us attorneys representatives were there

national guard representing comprises you they had a controller on in the mayor's office had one in the department of justice it was set up and it was not under internal security but it was as i recall the control room at justice was under the jurisdiction the deputy attorney general of the line outside our control room in the mayor's office was under the jurisdiction of america his people that they had representatives from all of these at your particular division related to the united states not just with her my division in the reference to civil disorder was for the purpose of providing information in the event the demand was

made is constitutionally provided by governor of the state under article for the constitution the united states government guarantees to each day the sovereign form of government and it guarantees against the overthrow of any state government by civil an insurrection i don't recall the numbers today but i think and that is the united states some thinking demands for assistance can come from governors the attorney general united states has a responsibility advising the president as to whether or not the state of construction sites that the federal government under its obligation to vote for them or only for the constitution should respond that requires an independent judgment on the part of the president united states and the president nine states exercise that judgment and those eighteen occasions and i think that in the cases he's turned the

governor's now but in order to make that judgment we president has to have that type of information related to the potential for civil disorder the internal security division has a repository of that information i'm not so sure we're on the same track era with martin know your division was just not in intelligence gathering division and also became a compensable litigating division of the justice department the river's principally her job will prosecute information right now why do you believe that the person on the vision vision finally the federal investigation the rebel base get five and six mixed up crimes i think is to section five is domestic intelligence that i find the

most intelligence under the direction of sweden's low vision fallen under williams all the part charles these politicians the division fire personal vision well he's under the misapprehension that was a system that was before i went to the court indicated they considered your arrival internal security measure be about a fresh air and that there are divisions

on the front and so far as any activity was concerned prior to iraq or do go ahead and develop a close working relationship between division five in the internal security division i don't know that it was a close working relationship i hope i have a close working relationship with all the divisions of the euro usually has fallen concomitantly cause friends conservatives you feel that you know him prior to order to the internal security division no sir it was just so it was an easy job he was associate director of the fbi just

to get back to an earlier question earlier this morning in what capacity wasn't in the capacity is associate director of the fbi was given the job of the kissinger james i don't know i need to know about those games let's get back to the relationship between the internal security division and division fought roberto thousands and oh yes sir did you utilize the investigatory capabilities of division five to read extent while you have it up in terms of polling with respect to the ongoing litigation as i would any other nation now an apartment i don't think that and in the division's the bureau would appreciate saying they were used only prosecute prosecutorial function

place and you investigated information the attorney who has responsibility for that particular case communicates with the division that is handling the investigation and if the prosecutor feels are not developing evidence of fashion to allocate sufficient to make a case he would then write a memo indicating that they have no evidence to establish one of the elements of the crime and that and to that extent they would have to develop further evidence that was available were you aware when you arrive at the internal security division the division fires activities at wimbledon too i would say any significance there was little to do it i don't know that that my arrival of internal security division

coincided with the impact in nineteen seventy eight of the church to which was empty organized crime has a recall and that we post a greater additional responsibilities in two divisions divisions five and six with respect to getting federal government jurisdiction bombing cases and i would say that the escalation of bombings occurred say sixty nineteen seventy one and i don't want to exaggerate i think they were from some i think they were increased by five hundred percent and i think that's a mental figure of cases that

were within the jurisdiction of those two divisions and you know relates to division five and specifically the reason why they went all down nothing as was because personnel over previous administrations had and principally assigned to either civil rights cases or to organized crime to give i doubt that the vision violent organized crime every jurisdiction problem in the bureau like they do in other says the personnel were drained from division vodka going to hear is the organized crime an uncivil rights i wasn't aware of that mind you there's a falling as the falling motto mean anything to you it's been reported to me by persons that are familiar with internal security division there was a

saying prevalent in the internal security vision that the constitution was not meant to be a suicide you ever heard that that is a decision by the united states supreme court in us versus kennedy died at your stewardship of the internal security division certainly not what you say it's certainly not what is your what is your definition of that i never heard the phrase uses of molokai was an internal security division sara colm i would call out because it's cited in the kennedy cases us supreme court decision that you feel that the administration feel of the crimes committed in the cause of political dissent were prosecuted less vigorously than the normal crimes committed money and

some other game and i feel that way that i don't think i felt that way and i don't think i saw expressed myself i think those crimes are more difficult to prosecute or difficult to get convictions on but i don't think i ever made such an extension you have any idea of how many people were at the internal security division when you were sent over there i would have to guess in terms of lawyers your terms of lawyers professional prisoner i would guess that somewhere in the neighborhood of fifty every idea how many were there when you left guess again at world leaders and i have the worst is reserved confirmation is

that there are somewhere around ninety when you're on the lawyers and i'm from a professional person i think that included all cars and a hundred and fifty eight hundred and fifty eight when he left that i wouldn't disagree with those of the things you get from the division we only reason you give a reason for this additional personnel as we have transferred us over six thousand selective service please that's one of the reasons we were also given the responsibility we have a floating we have a floating unit in the department of justice composed of lawyers from the criminal division from the civil rights division and from the internal security division dealing with radical activities of it involved a for instance the

ku klux klan problem ahead an expert from the civil rights division if they had a just a general criminal bombing somebody from the village and if they had a radical terrorist bombing had somebody from the internal security division when i went to justice that they seem to have no heading that unit seem to float around and they put it in my division under my responsibility it would be fair to say though that your division acquired a beat up litigating capability when the csi i would say that and i think that the statistics on bombing in terrorist activities the united states the numbers indicate the number of lawyers did not rise as fast as the number of activities that needed prosecution knows how many bombers and terrorists if you can do it

i don't have some idea problem of major proportions use the head of the vision must take some pride in your work to indicate to me exactly how many were convicted i didn't keep her head and keep those sticks myself i'm sure the department's the specifics are available the conviction rate on bombing so did increase their reserves nationally if you add a civilian settlers to prioritize those are between known organized crime civil rights political dissent where would you place

and so far as the division when you were when you were very active in the area of organized crime was not within my jurisdiction civil rights is not within my jurisdiction was within your jurisdiction statutes were a lot of the internal security division and canoe you define that one of the functions for a sense of the internal security division which is little known as the registration foreign agents registration foreign agents registration act has nothing to do with foreign agents of that type of thing that means anybody that does represent a reform party that was working in his country seeking to influence legislation it's more of a lobbying may have to register with us and file reporter lazarus six months and

there's the other time consuming job and it takes people to do it has been on sabotage edition those who like their servers those types of those statutes relate to internal security of a subversive activities control board came within my purview but i don't think that filing case was attorney general i could be mistaken pentagon papers case that came with an interview the internal security vision as thirty minutes allotted for it and may day demonstrations may day demonstrations did not come within my purview that liked her i'd like to raise this question for a ruling by the chair i did not making a point in connection with this line of contamination

i didn't raise the point where yeah because i thought that there might be some retro relationship between this line of inquiry and something that might follow what if i understand it correctly any question is proper to be propelled by the senator's which is within the resolution sixty adopted by the united states senate and to engage into an inquiring about the procedures certain divisions of the department of justice and the kind of knowledge acquired by a former assistant attorney general in connection with the activities of the department that has no revote relationship any issue involving resolution sixty seems to me beyond the scope of the inquiry as i read resolution six

while good morning issue orders to former associates over the internal security division of labor materials to the committee to reelect president plans to record just spirit supreme court it would

be that's right on chairman division was responsible for the prosecution of the matter and to martin so i think the political activities thank you michelle obama and who knows

and i think it's fine or turn against a team that has been made and it's a matter of the evidence before this millie the watergate matter with an inevitable outgrowth of a climate of excessive concern over the political impact of demonstrators excessive concern over legions social app like the political intelligence i think chairman that have been made up or pointed out very clearly that why this witness and violence as to the insatiable appetite for political intelligence it's been pointed out very clearly as to be excessive concern the subject to the

germans rolling thunder third piece of the puzzle was secretary of the excessive concern of the political impact of demonstrators and that this was one of the reasons why we ended up in the water i think that as well i know that the rule makers traditionally kids at school i'm reluctant to intervene in those years but i wonder if we can accommodate senator wyden her wishes and still stay within the purview of the inquiries committee are i confess i did not hear the original question what the witnesses became an arctic council at the time but i understand the burden of federal workers concern i wonder if we could start over and see if we can reach you richard middleton

fbi investigated i think that's an investigation because that's a partner invested a r o u t of the president to go i don't think it does

right our nation whoever needed it yeah he didn't know that there was no legitimate way that you could get that level of weapons actress without radical all the reasons i so the question relates to any questions looking into moving burglary of the other parts of plants but the pentagon papers in the questions might as well deal with testimonials duties as general counsel of health education welfare i point out the

council on questioning of mr martin this morning when he first denied mr libby's presence in the internal security division one question that was established with jordie indeed i had been there on more than just the matter he testified to in response to an earlier question i think this very much goes to mr mortensen are mostly and that to work together on other matters specifically the pentagon papers case no objection to that question gemini i will conclude my question of you know they were allowed to say that they were the thrust of his line question is very directly related

to meet the mandate of our committee chairs the utilization of internal security division to stifle political dissent in this country it is these questions are asked in that country that place and that is the mandate of his dramatic day i come and the chairman i think that their statements internal security division of the department of justice it's for the purpose of stifling dissent in this country does justice to the department of justice and to allow to find people who work there and i feel it incumbent upon me as a former since the attorney general of that department say that i do not mean that any confirmations way the obligation is people in that department that i know are some of the finest people i know i think that to suggest that they were involved in that type of activity is not

fair to my comments are made your leadership that are mourning and so it's not good to indicate to this committee exactly what role you play in a relationship mr young and mr crowe on the matter of the pentagon papers while you're the head of the internal security division just fine a relationship that i recall with any of the gentleman you mentioned recall among opposed crow specifically

mr young i understood was a representative from the national security council was truly representative from the white house i understood that they were compiling information for the benefit of the president united states and for the director national security council as to the progress of the investigation into the leak of the pentagon papers and i don't recall the meeting with mr libby on that subject or mystery on more than one occasion there certainly weren't any political parties involved in any such relationship quoting you communicate rather than handing over information

my recollection is i could be wrong because i don't think it's significant but i had no face to face conversation that i can recall the court i believe it was in the latter part of mayors mr mccourt has suggested that i read receive them mr handler memorandum for mr roberts oh it was a memorandum i don't recall what it said the report was whether or not information relating to the potential for civil disorder at the republican national convention would be available to the committee to avoid another chicago

mr o'neill brought that to me as i recall mr ole asked me if i could call the justice department to make available to the security officer for the committee civil disorder information as it related to the republican national convention i personally call justice department called mr john martin i believe and i told him he would be hearing from mr mccourt identified mr mccourt was and i requested of you make of that they are able to estimate court any information relating to the potential for civil disorder that the department can furnish him under department guidelines that has to some extent of that situation as i recall knowing mr martin i doubt

seriously if you would have given him any information that was the guidelines provide fb i had one of the conversation with this record that related to the employment of the driver who had been promised employment committee relies upon that promise to put his job became overdue the employment or they didn't need him i called mr mccourt i asked him if he promises young men and one of the cds that sort of these cases the internal security

division and groups which we would probably term as being peace groups anti war groups etc he's a potential civil disorder planning a mass rally and fifty thousand people in washington and not the internal security division that the department of justice i mean the fbi and other agencies such as the police department would count the buses and planes coming in trying to assess how many people are going to have to have to that extent yes because there were not because they were anti war people because the cause that amounted to masses of people that we're going to have to be controlled as far as traffic on the possibility or the potential for civil disorder when you get that many people and history you know many investigations are wiretaps

is it related to other political figures or members of the press that were ordered by the internal security division other than the kissinger the internal security division to my knowledge never ordered a single wire on sunday repeat the question to requested a wiretap internal security division to my knowledge never requested his wiretapping like tenure then make a matter of record that division during your tenure never requested a wiretap division five the governor of the city all those requests that come from prisons designated by the president united states in the nineteen eighty one person and that's the director of the fbi the

police beat and i would first like car while an apparent conflict in the record from your testimony yesterday for the record will be straight at page four seven ninth floor and you said there's no group has said that mr mitchell that he had authorized two hundred and fifty thousand dollars in this same but a very small part of that so that is how the two hundred and fifty thousand dollars but it came up then the second reading it there is one i'd take to be a at the first three words all this to mobilize the mitchell i think that should relieve estimate would've said that there's been

that said stick this page or seven nine seven others is the testimony and the question was and did you subsequently confirmed at the budget that had been allocated in the lady was actually two hundred and fifty thousand low and your answer was theirs to this day that matter has never been confirmed to me and it is there some conflict here not unlike the nuclear that identity and please be the last quote the question was and did you subsequently confirmed that the budget that had been allocated initially was actually two hundred and fifty thousand dollars custom audience to this day that man i've never been confirmed to me i think referring to question relating to a hundred and ninety nine thousand and that's how i understood it sly when i must have misunderstood the question really took the

rest of the world i would never cut the fact that there have been any agreement and the amount of this i think yes that's what i would've been referring to so i think the question of the operation even as the mitchell mr mcgrew the budget that had been approved for mr libby's dittrich operations and black man's operation was two hundred and fifty thousand as i think i testified that i i'm not sure in what context of rose whether rosen california whether rose immediately thereafter my best recollection was that a rose in connection with the confrontation between that i had with mr magruder <unk> whose presence when i asked about when i asked him how much money he had given us truly and he replied forty thousand dollars and i said in surprise forty thousand dollars and it was echoed by mr mitchell

forty thousand dollars he then said but it was he said a small part of something that of the two hundred and fifty thousand dollars to authorize mr mitchell replies i recall was yes but the campaign hasn't started yet there's no now by mr nigel in europe wasn't that you'd all of two hundred and fifty thousand dollars that's what i think i testified to like i i think i testified i don't recall the commission saying si approved two hundred and fifty thousand items including one that question came up he did ellen page forty two seven justified that happened mr mitchell and for it did not fire or have you advised him to dave memorandum for the final to protect himself and even said that he instructed you're there was

inadmissible going to be the actual offer of this memorandum this now what facts did you intend to put him into this moment to put in all the cracks mr mitchell was aware of the time that was destined to employees i'm sorry it would have been immediately before jack july first probably need maybe i would guess that's the time about her life and you also testified and this morning at age forty two seven of the trend that at the clock mcgregor have made certain flat statements of leverage that the news regarding non involvement of campaign personnel you complain him that certain of the statements weren't true an unsuccessful successfully for

attempted to leave about the tremendous exposure of certain people in the campaign that in this briefing that you tried to give mr mcgregor in fact we're going to tell you i was trying to tell him the involvement of mr thought he ought to know about the involvement of mr magruder mr porter reference to their activities when you say you mean the tears no i was not going to really witnessed the levee to leave it i felt that and he had mentioned on the part of these men and i felt this admission was gonna come for at least as far as dirty tricks and other unethical

activities were concerned but they had to come out to the ordinary investor who are still employed in the committee to re elect the president would reflect adversely on the president nixon's campaign for reelection the well you know you say you're not going to jail mr mcgregor that you're feeling in this immigrant had been involved in order to fight i will accuse mr mcgrew i think i was going to tell him my suspicions that i felt he'd gotten all those suspicions before he made any further statements suspicion well that was obvious that they had been engaged in a dirty tricks and black and that's operation in my suspicion that he had been involved in the watergate break in known as martin would not every billing these facts

mr mcgregor and me being these facts as mr o'brien who is going to write this memo profile and revealing these factory album i've read the file i've been a violation of the duty you have decided that you head to keep about the provinces that had been placed the new bombers blew it wasn't a violent deliveries confidence i felt that their mazda magruder occupy positions tonight show i think you oughta know my suspicions and i said i was not going to accuse anyone i just thought you know i know my suspicions i was the the counsel for the committee and i think the climate i don't know what the attorney thanks and i thought it would be helpful in guiding him as to the majors vacancy made no future vision job were beige with what mr libby told oh i can't go into all of that stuart rose between the forty thousand nine hundred ninety nine thousand if i knew nothing more than that

i would have been suspicious i made the statement on several occasions to suggest you to give mr libby two hundred thousand dollars and then the surprise that he used it for an illegal workers who cherish would be light suggesting that you gave a young child a loaded pistol and sent him into a crowded room and were surprised somebody was killed and i express myself in that regard in the eye i could've maybe i would have expressed myself in that regard endured without knowledge of what mr libby had told me and i just said if you're going to put in his file all the fact that you knew as a forced to do a lot of those would include would they not the effectiveness of the lineage of mr mitchell i am all of the facts that he knew that that time in concluding what was the lady you know i we didn't

go into that i said i think you're in order to protect himself as justification for misconduct twenty four what's that you said mr o'brian was designated as the author and as mr o'brien to drop you had revealed these fact mr ryan would that not have been violating that i have not revealed that you were planning to do so he'd advised mr mitchell put i this information and what mr mitchell could put in the memorandum was up to mr mitchell i'm not up to mr martin i didn't think i don't think mr mitchell was around i thought you said that mr michel instructive to look at this memorandum and you alone you know i think it's true mr o'brien constructed mr o'brien to prepare the memorandum and i presumed he would talk to mr mitchell and prepare the memorandum

it was almost immediately thereafter mr mitchell told you to be wary and did you confront this witness to libby's assertion that he lived in a group i don't think it i doubt if i said mr libby told me that you are great and i'm a well you just a five point four seven nine for that award few days after your conversation with mr liddy us <unk> whether he directed mostly to go in there and he denied at that time you did not say to mr mcgregor that mr libby is told me no sir i don't i'm sure he did not say they didn't say you must morning where did you get that information or what makes us that much of a neurological

question for me to ask him if he had anything to do with that i wanted a lot of new sources of political money and he had been on the absoluteness ability that was not a known factor why would be more logical for mr mcgrew had to be asked that question in this financial mess but laroche someone else was rather in congress and the two are still working together and what i like to read you just a few lines that she testified to get a list of movies where you said i think he knew that probably

was aware of the fact that i have been talking mostly movies and bob and i would be less than honest if i did not say that it was better to the grand jury went up there and testified and he was not involved you would be perjuring himself if you want my personal opinion i thought he was going to go out there and take the fifth amendment a question well did you know he fb fb