The MacNeil/Lehrer Report; 6039; Billy Carter Probe

[Tease]

BILLY CARTER [testifying]: Mr. Chairman, I hope this testimony will show in common-sense fashion that Billy Carter is not a buffoon, a boob or a wacko, as some public figures have so described him. I am a common citizen with uncommon financial and family problems. I want to restore order to my life, but obviously cannot do so until I have assisted all investigations who wish my presence. I am ready to answer your questions.

JIM LEHRER: Tonight, Billy Carter`s day in the court of the United States Senate.

[Titles]

LEHRER: Good evening. Two of Billy Carter`s friends and associates are under federal investigation for allegedly smuggling cocaine and marijuana into the United States. That bit of news was dropped on the president`s brother today by a special Senate subcommittee investigating his dealings with Libya. There was no suggestion that Billy Carter had anything to do with, or knew anything about, the alleged drug activity, but Carter was questioned about his relationship with the two men, George Belluomini and Ronald Sprague, both of Bakersfieid, California. Belluomini is a landowner and businessman. Sprague is his accountant. Belluomini and Billy Carter became friends three years ago. Later, Sprague went to Libya to negotiate a loan for Carter. Sprague, in fact, testified about those negotiations yesterday. Today`s session had opened with Billy Carter`s reading a 25- minute prepared statement in which he denied any wrongdoing or impropriety in his relations with Libya or with his brother the president and the U.S. government. Then Senator Birch Bayh, the subcommittee chairman, took his colleagues into a closed execu-tive session. He said a new development had come to light in the last 24 hours. A short while later, in open session, that development was made public. It was done through a series of questions to Carter asked by the committee`s chief counsel, Philip Tone.

PHILIP TONE: Mr. Carter, Mr. Sprague, who testified here yesterday, is employed, he said, by a Mr. Belluomini of Bakersfieid, California. Do you know Mr. Belluomini?

CARTER: Yes, sir, I do.

TONE: When-- What is his full name?

CARTER: George is all I know. George.

TONE: And when did you first meet Mr. Belluomini?

CARTER: Some time in the spring or summer of 1977.

TONE: When did his name first come to your attention?

CARTER: His name came, I think, when I first met him, during that same time.

TONE: How did you get in touch with him? Did he call you, or did you call him?

CARTER: He called my agent in Nashville, and his daughter was involved in the Women`s Professional Softball League, and they were having an organizational meet-ing, and they asked me to come speak at it.

TONE: And where was the meeting held?

CARTER: It was held in the vicinity of Bakersfieid, sir.

TONE: And did you go to the meeting?

CARTER: Yes, sir.

TONE: And did you there meet Mr. Belluomini?

CARTER: Yes, sir

TONE: You hadn`t-- Had you just talked to him on the telephone before that?

CARTER: Not that I recall.

TONE: And what did you do when you were there?

CARTER: Well, I spoke at the meeting, which I went for. I spent a lot of time-- I never had been in Kern County, California and the fanning there-- the type of farming there was new to me. I hadn`t seen that part. And I spent a lot of time with Mr. Belluomini and his brothers looking over their farming operation.

TONE: Can you tell me what Mr. Belluomini`s brother`s name is?

CARTER: Elmer.

TONE: Did you meet any other members of the Belluomini family?

CARTER: Yes, sir, I met Mr. both Belluomini`s daughter, who 1 went there for, his-- both brothers, though I can`t recall the other one`s name right now, and his sister, who I can`t recall her name.

TONE: How long did you spend with the-- in the company of the Belluominis?

CARTER: I was in Bakersfieid, Judge Tone, I think, for two days. I`m not sure exactly of the time frame.

TONE: And when did you next see Mr. George Belluomini?

CARTER: [long silence] Judge Tone, I`m trying to recall. I`ve seen him on several occasions since then. I don`t know when I invited him down to my daughter`s wedding, or whether I went to Scottsdale, Arizona for a drag race promotion they were putting on there.

TONE: Were you with him in Scottsdale, Arizona?

CARTER: Yes, sir

TONE: For how long?

CARTER: Approximately two days again.

TONE: And did he attend your daughter`s wedding?

CARTER: Yes, sir.

TONE: And when was that?

CARTER: The first one-- the first one of my daughters that got married-- it was in June of `78, I think.

TONE: And did he also attend another family wedding?

CARTER: Yes, sir, my other-- my next daughter, who he attended in June of `79.

TONE: How long were his visits to you on those two occasions?

CARTER: Oh, three or four days.

TONE: Three or four days each?

CARTER: I`m not sure exactly-- of the exact time frame.

TONE: Was he a guest in your house?

CARTER: No, sir, not on either occasion. He was a guest in my house on several occasions-- several times during both occasions, but he did not sleep at my house.

TONE: All right. What-- on what other occasions have you been present with Mr. Belluomini?

CARTER: I went out to California in January or February of this year to speak at Captain Pursch`s retirement. He`s head of the Alcohol Rehabilitation Center at Long Beach. I had three days in between so I went out to George`s and stayed at his house during that time.

TONE: When did you first meet Mr. Sprague?

CARTER: On this trip.

TONE: On that trip?

CARTER: Yes, sir

TONE: Have you seen Mr. Belluomini since that visit?

CARTER: Yes, sir, he came down, I guess, in March or April and stayed at my house for approximately three weeks.

TONE: And was he a guest at your house at that time?

CARTER: Yes, sir, he was.

TONE: Have you seen him since then?

CARTER: Yes, I saw Mr. Belluomini shortly in the elevator the night before last. And last night at the hotel I`m staying in.

TONE: And is he here in Washington?

CARTER: I`m not sure whether he still is or not now, Judge Tone. I saw him early yesterday afternoon after I went back to the hotel.

TONE: You said you saw him in the elevator. Was that a casual meeting, or have you seen him for a substantial time while you`ve been here?

CARTER: No, sir, I have not seen him for a substantial time. It was just that when I first came into the hotel, I met him. He was getting off the elevator, and then last night when I went in, he was on the elevator. He`s staying on the ninth floor and I`m on the tenth, and we rode up together, but it was a casual meeting as far as I know.

TONE: Have you had any meetings with him while he`s been here?

CARTER: No, sir, I have not.

TONE: Have you now told us about the various visits with Mr. Belluomini--

CARTER: No, sir, no-- I`ll tell you-- 1 was there in June of this year. I went out to see my son who was in California working on the president`s campaign, and during this time he stayed at Mr. Belluomini`s house. I went out for three days in June to see my son and saw Mr. Belluomini at that time.

TONE: And how long did your son stay there?

CARTER: Judge Tone, I`m not exactly sure of the time frame. He traveled all over the United States during the campaign. I think I`d be safe in saying, approximately a month.

TONE: And you met-- when did you-- how much time did you spend with Mr. Sprague when you first met him?

CARTER: I saw him in the office a couple of times. We went to dinner once, 1 think. Or lunch.

TONE: You had lunch with him once.

CARTER: Yes, sir. And I saw him with Mr. Belluomini-- He works in Mr. Belluo-mini`s office and we did-- I did go there several times.

TONE: When Mr. Sprague and Mr. Coleman were leaving for their trip to Libya in March of this year, or rather earlier this year, did you go to Washington with Mr. Sprague and Mr. Coleman?

CARTER: Yes, sir. I didn`t-- I met Mr. Sprague in Washington. I think we met Mr. Sprague, if I-- to the best of my recollection. Mr. Coleman, me and Mr. Coleman flew up together.

TONE: And met Mr. Sprague in Washington

CARTER: Yes, sir.

TONE: And did you spend some time with Mr. Sprague here?

CARTER: I spent some time with him here, yes, sir.

TONE: All right. Did you talk to Mr. Sprague after he got back from Libya?

CARTER: Yes, sir.

TONE: Did you spend any time with him then?

CARTER: Yes, sir, I spent about four hours with him in Atlanta.

TONE: And was that a business meeting or a social meeting, or both?

CARTER: Both

TONE: Mr. Carter, we have been informed by the Department of Justice that Mr. George Belluomini and others are the subjects of an investigation concerning the importation of marijuana and cocaine into the United States, and that a federal grand jury has been opened in connection with that investigation. We are also informed that you are not a subject of that investigation, and that the government has no information that you were in any way involved. I want to make that understood to you at the very outset.

CARTER: [barely audible] -- good.

TONE: Finally, the Department of Justice has advised us that it has no objections to the subcommittee`s disclosure in this hearing of the information just stated.

CARTER: Yes, sir.

TONE: Mr. Carter, did you ever hear any conversation when you were in the presence of Mr. Belluomini or Mr. Sprague or in their household on the subject of cocaine or marijuana or the importation of those or any other drugs?

CARTER: No, sir, I did not. The only conversation at any time on drugs was the drug problem that one of Mr. Belluomini`s family had. And that was the only time. This was a complete shock to me, what you just said. No, sir, I did not.

TONE: And apart from the problem with a member of Mr. Belluomini`s family, did you see any-- observe any events that would have led you to believe that Mr. Belluo-mini or any of his associates were involved in drug importation?

CARTER: No, sir, I would not-- I did not.

LEHRER: For the record, Mr. Tone said later in the day, he was wrong on one point. A federal grand jury was not yet considering evidence on the drug- smuggling allegation. The Justice Department was still at the investigation stage. Now, on the major point of the Senate subcommittee`s investigation: Did Billy Carter`s relationship with Libya influence U.S. policy toward Libya? In his opening statement, Carter denied there was even any attempt to do so. Here is a piece of that statement, and some follow-up questioning from the senators.

CARTER: I didn`t ask anything of Jimmy Carter or any U.S. government representa-tive on behalf of the Libyan government, or any agency, or any representative thereof. Furthermore, the Libyans have not asked me to ask anything of the president or any representatives of the U.S. government. There have been no understandings, direct or implied, between the Libyan government and myself that I would seek to influence U.S. government policy. I did talk to my brother about the country of Libya. He has never been there, and we had family talks, just as you would tell a member of your family about a trip you may have taken to a foreign land. I`d never ask my brother to do anything for the benefit of Libya. I also know that he would not do it even if I had been foolish enough to try, which I wasn`t. I remember quite well when Jimmy was gover-nor of Georgia, and the state repaved the streets of Plains with one exception -- a small portion of street in front of my house was not repaved. Neither Jimmy Carter nor 1 believe that the government can or should be used in any way for the financial benefits of members of the president`s family.

SENATOR: You emphasized that you had no-- you emphasized to the Libyans that you have no influence, or had no influence in the government. Is that basically what you said?

CARTER: That is exactly what I said, yes, sir.

SENATOR: That you had no influence with the United States government or with the president of the United States?

CARTER: That is correct.

SENATOR: Was that just a gratuitous comment on your part? I mean, did you volunteer that, or did you make that comment in response to something they had said to you?

CARTER: No, sir. I made it clear from the very beginning that 1 had no influence on U.S. policy towards anything.

SENATOR: Well, let me be more specific. Had they said something to you that made you feel that you should say that?

CARTER: No, sir. No, sir, they had not. I just made it clear from the start for the people that arranged the trip that I would not get involved in any politics at all on the trip. That 1 did not have any influence and did not want them to try to say that I did have any influence.

SENATOR: Had they even suggested to you that you might have such influence?

CARTER: No, sir, they had not. I was concerned about it, though.

SENATOR: What was their reaction when you told them that?

CARTER: None

Sen. STROM THURMOND: Did Mrs. Rosalynn Carter call you regarding the U.S. hostages?

CARTER: Yes, sir, that`s correct.

THURMOND: Would you mind telling us what she said to you and what you said in response? Just-- if we could just get some conversation on that?

CARTER: Senator Thurmond, to the best of my recollection-- Yes, sir. To the best of my recollection, though, Rosalynn called - it was at night, I was already in bed, I don`t know exactly what time -- and asked me did I think I`d like to talk to some of my friends in Libya about helping with the U.S. hostages in Iran, and I told her yes. And that was basically the conversation.

THURMOND: And did you follow that up?

CARTER: Yes, sir. On the next morning, 1 flew to Washington and-- I flew to Washington and I talked to Dr. Brzezinski, and then I told Dr. Brzezinski before [ got involved between two governments, t wanted to speak to Secretary Vance and get his permission. I spoke to Secretary Vance. He told me I had his permission to do it. I then called Dr. el-Hodayri, who wasn`t in town at that time, and a week later-- So, I left and went back home the same day. A week later, I came up, talked to Dr. Brzezinski again, talked to Dr. el-Hodayri, asked him would he meet with him. Dr. el-Hodayri told me that he would have to check with his government. I told him where I`d be. He called me approximately an hour, hour and a half later, and told me he had permission to talk to Dr. Brzezinski, and then the meeting in Dr. Brzezinski`s office came about.

THURMOND: Will you tell us what occurred then at the meeting?

CARTER: Yes, sir. I was asked to go in the meeting, and I asked Randy Coleman to go with me. We went in. We met Dr. el-Hodayri at the door, introduced him to Dr. Brzezinski. I was involved very little after the introduction. I sat there at the meeting. Dr. Brzezinski and Dr. el-Hodayri discussed schools-- I think one of them was Colum-bia and one of them was New York State University. And then he asked him, did he think his government could help with the hostages. And Dr. el-Hodayri said he would do what he could.

THURMOND: He said he`d do what he could?

CARTER: Yes, sir.

THURMOND: Now, did you follow that up to see what he did do, or-- ?

CARTER: No, sir, I did not.

Sen. CLAIBORNE PELL: What went into the decision to have, not only you, but Randy Coleman at the meeting with Dr. Brzezinski and Dr. el-Hodayri in Washington?

CARTER: I introduced Dr. el-Hodayri to Dr. Brzezinski. I asked Randy Coleman to attend with me. I was very leery of getting involved in anything between two govern-ments. I wanted a witness on my side if anything came out about it.

PELL: And could you give us just a brief resume of what went on in that conversation?

CARTER: With Dr. Brzezinski?

PELL: Yes

CARTER: It was a very short meeting. I had never-- it was the first conversation I`d ever had with Dr. Brzezinski except over the phone or meeting with him, and it was just a--I`d call it the general State Department talk. They talked about colleges and had some mutual friends in the university system in New York. And then he asked, did he think that he could get any help from his government on the release of the hostages. And it was a short meeting, I think 15 or 20 minutes. Most of it was spent talking about mutual schools and what have you. And Dr. el-Hodayri said he would do what he could do.

PELL: Do you feel that the later Libyan disavowal of the action of the Iranian people, or militants, or thugs, or whatever they are, in taking the hostages-- do you feel that action came as a result of your meeting?

CARTER: I don`t know what to feel. 1 would like to think it did. I mean, any help I could have given, I would have been glad to give and been proud to give.

LEHRER: At the heart of much of this, of course, is $220,000 Billy Carter received from the Libyans. Carter says it was an advance on a $500,000 loan, not a payment for any services he rendered far Libya. Here is Carter`s statement on how he and his associate Randy Coleman negotiated the loan, plus some follow-up.

CARTER: In May, 1979, after my release from the Long Beach hospital, Randy Coleman and I went to Rome, and again met with Libyan representatives. During this weekend trip, we discussed both the prospective oil commission arrangements and the possibility of a loan from the Libyans to me pending the conclusion of the oil arrange-ments. We also discussed plans for a possible visit by me to Libya in the fall of 1979 in connection with the tenth anniversary celebration of the Libyan government. I present-ed a loan figure of $500,000, but at that time we did not arrive at exact terms or dates for such a loan. In my own mind, I do not believe that the Libyans were considering these business arrangements because of any hope that I would be able to influence United States policy toward Libya. Certainly, no representative of Libya ever ex-pressed such a hope to me or asked for any specific action on my part. You may think me naive, Senators, but I truly believe that the Libyan people with whom I dealt fell personally responsible for the fact that I had lost my means of financial livelihood. These representatives were astonished by the outpouring of negative public reaction to their visit to Georgia. They had copies of these negative articles from the American press. I think that the Libyans fell an obligation to help me get back on my financial feet.

Sen. BIRCH BAYH: I want to try to patch up a few loose ends here on this loan and oil negotiations or the arrangements. You refer in two places in your statement to a relationship between the two. Was the loan agreement tied to the oil agreement which you negotiated for Charter?

CARTER: No, sir, it was not tied to it. I assume you mean, Senator, was it tied to it in a legal way? No, sir, it was not tied to it in any way.

Sen. RICHARD LUGAR: Things did not really change in this picture despite all of the travel back and forth until the time that you and Mr. Coleman and Dr. el-Hodayri and Dr. Brzezinski met in the White House on November 27th. That appears to be, at least in any sort of sequence, the approximate cause of anything occurring in this situation. Only after that, the $20,000 was forthcoming. That apparently you were of value to the Libyans. Did that occur to you at the time in terms of the sequence of events, that this money was only available after the White House visit?

CARTER: No, sir. I don`t the Libyans got anything out of the White House. I think the Libyans did a favor for the United States. The Libyans didn`t get anything out of it, as far as I know.

LUGAR: Well, in subsequent questioning, I`d like to get back into that as to who got what in that visit. But the facts of life are that you had nothing at that stage, and after the White House visit, you got $20,000. You don`t see any connection in the sequence of those events?

CARTER: Not after. It was longer than a month after. Senator.

LEHRER: Many expected Billy and the senators to be quite a show, spiced with plenty of good ole boy humor and defiant barbs. It didn`t happen. Billy Carter came over as cool, collected and cooperative. His answers were short, to the point, and -- with only a couple of exceptions -- solemn. One of those exceptions came in a response to a series of questions from Senator Lugar.

LUGAR: You have tried to make a point elsewhere that you and your brother have not taken a casual view of public service, have not attempted to make money, in essence, out of public life. But at least for many of us, taking a look at this particular period of your life, it appeared to be `cashing in` on fame and, as you have even suggested, maybe notoriety that you brought upon yourself, dramatically so, during this period of time. Now, the difficulty comes when the appearances and the income of this nature stop. And what I`m intrigued about is that at the time of the softball game in Plains in July-- or just before the 4th of July in 1978, apparently the income had not stopped, and there you describe a brief meeting at the back of the service station when a representative of Libya invited you to visit that country as a guest of the government. And you say, I subsequently accepted the invitation.` I still, despite all that has been said thus far about the possible reasons why you would have gone -- namely, you`re-- the fact you were intrigued with the thought of trying to find out about this government which had been described to you as one of the two most radical, and the adventure of foreign travel and what have you -- at the same time, you also indicated apparently to our witness a couple of days ago that you did not want anyone to know about that decision because you were afraid someone might try to stop you. At least-- Wasn`t there at least a doubt that went through your mind at that point as to whether that was the right thing to do? That is, to go to Libya?

CARTER: I thought about it a while before I accepted it. It never was a doubt whether it was the right thing. I didn`t think anybody would try to stop me. The statement I made was I didn`t want anybody to tell me not to go. Ask me not to go.

LUGAR: Who do you think might have asked you not to go?

CARTER: I don`t really know. I don`t know whether the government or the political advisers of Jimmy might have asked me not to go.

LUGAR: Don`t you suspect that they would have?

CARTER: Cm not sure. Senator.

LUGAR: Even in light of everything that`s happened subsequently, that somebody might at that point if they had thought about it, asked you not to go?

CARTER: Senator, everything in light of what`s happened since then-- If I`d have known it was gonna happen, I can assure you I never would have went to Libya the first time on my own recognition, nobody else`s.

LUGAR: I see. If you knew now what has occurred, you would not have gone?

CARTER: If I`d known now what`s happening now was gonna happen, I would not have gone. I just-- but hindsight ain`t worth a damn, I found out.

LEHRER: The senators are to finish their examination of the president`s brother tomor-row. I`m Jim Lehrer. Thank you and good night.