The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour

MS. WARNER: Good evening. I'm Margaret Warner in New York.

MR. LEHRER: And I'm Jim Lehrer in Washington. After our summary of the news this Monday, we go to the Haiti story with a view of the Haitian military chief and four members of the U.S. Congress. Then Jeffrey Kaye reports from Los Angeles on the verdicts in the Denny beating case. NEWS SUMMARY

MS. WARNER: President Clinton slapped new sanctions on Haiti's military and police leaders today, freezing their assets in the U.S. and barring them from travel here. Mr. Clinton is trying to pressure them to abide by an agreement to step aside and let deposed President Jean Bertrande-Aristide returned to power. The U.N. would impose an oil and trade embargo against Haiti at midnight. Six U.S. and three Canadian warships are stationed off the coast of the island station to ensure compliance. A French frigate will join them tomorrow. Haiti's military leader said in a NewsHour interview that a previous embargo had only hurt the Haitian people and that renewed sanctions won't help resolve the standoff between the U.N. and Haiti's military.

LT. GENERAL RAOUL CEDRAS, Haitian Military Leader: [speaking through interpreter] The blockade which you're referring to will make even higher the suffering of the people of Haiti. I think the solution is in dialogue, dialogue that must lead us to national reconciliation, and this is the spirit of the Governors Island Agreement.

MS. WARNER: General Cedras insisted that Americans in Haiti are in no danger, but he warned against direct U.S. military intervention, saying it would only bring blood and tears to the country. We'll have the full interview with General Cedras right after the News Summary. Jim.

MR. LEHRER: Mr. Clinton faces a possible showdown with Senate Republicans over his handling of Haiti. Minority leader Robert Dole said he would introduce an amendment requiring the President to get congressional approval before committing troops to Haiti unless national security was at risk. Mr. Clinton said he would oppose the measure. He spoke to reporters at the White House this afternoon, and Sen. Dole responded a few minutes later on Capitol Hill.

PRESIDENT CLINTON: Clearly, the Constitution leaves to the President good and sufficient reasons the ultimate decision making authority, and I think to cut off that authority in advance of it being made without the, the -- all the circumstances and facts there before us is an error and could really lead to weakening our relationships with a lot of our allies and encouraging the very kind of conduct we want to discourage in the world.

SEN. ROBERT DOLE, Minority Leader: I'm trying to find the balance between what the President understands very critical from his standpoint, because we're not trying to endanger anybody's lives or prevent the President from taking appropriate action if there's an emergency and the concern that Congress has. I don't want to micromanage foreign policy. I think that's -- but I think we do have some role to play, and so we're going to try to work it out.

MR. LEHRER: In Somalia today, U.S. troops fired at a group of armed men advancing on their position in Mogadishu. A U.N. spokeswoman said the U.S. troops fired warning shots, and no one was injured. But journalists at the scene said they saw up to four Somali men who appeared to be wounded in the incident. U.N. peacekeeping troops also fired warning shots in three other incidents today. The United States issued another warning today to Serbia about continued attacks against the Bosnian capital of Sarajevo. The warning was made in a personal cable this morning from Sec. of State Christopher to Serb President Milosevic. A State Department spokesman said the cable referred to the possible use of NATO air strikes against Serbian guns overlooking the city.

MS. WARNER: One of the nation's biggest banks, Morgan Guaranty Trust, cut its prime lending rate by 1/2 percent today to 5 1/2 percent. Other big banks are expected to follow suit. The prime is the interest rate banks charge their best customers and serves as a benchmark for other business and consumer loan rates. Today's cut was the first by a major bank in more than a year and puts the rate at the 20-year low.

MR. LEHRER: A jury in Los Angeles today found two black men innocent of most felony charges in the beating of white truck driver Reginald Denny. Twenty-nine-year old Henry Watson and twenty-year-old Damian Williams were convicted on a number of lesser misdemeanor charges. Williams was also found guilty of four misdemeanor assaults on people other than Denny. The attack took place during the April 1992 Los Angeles riots. The Denny beating was televised by a local news crew. The jury deadlocked on several counts, including an attempted murder charge against Williams. The judge asked them to continue their deliberations. We'll have more on this story later in the program. A gunman shot and killed a man and two women this morning at the Ft. Knox, Kentucky, army base. Two other people were critically wounded. All five were civilian employees at a Ft. Knox training center building. The suspected gunman was identified as 53-year-old Arthur Hill, a civilian with 24 years of military service and a former employee at the base. The victims were his former supervisor and co-workers. Hill was found two hours later in a bathroom at the Veterans Administration Hospital in Louisville 40 miles away. Officials there said he had a self-inflicted gunshot wound. There was no word on his condition.

MS. WARNER: The space shuttle Columbia finally got off the ground this morning. Two earlier launch attempts from Cape Canaveral in Florida were thwarted last week by bad weather and technical problems. The 14-day medical mission will be the longest shuttle flight ever. The seven astronauts will test the effect of prolonged weightlessness on themselves and on 48 rats that have been brought on board.

MR. LEHRER: Russia refused to stop dumping radioactive waste into the waters off Japan today. The Russian ambassador in Tokyo was summoned after a Russian ship dumped large quantities of nuclear waste into the Sea of Japan this weekend. The action was monitored by the environmental group Greenpeace. Russia earlier had promised to end the practice. We have a report narrated by David Symonds of Worldwide Television News.

DAVID SYMONDS, WTN: The Russian ship sailed into the Sea of Japan at the weekend. It was carrying 900 tons of radioactive liquid waste and 67 containers of more dangerous solid waste. Russia says the dumping was approved by the International Atomic Energy Agency as the radiation was well within acceptable levels. But Greenpeace says any dumping of nuclear waste in the sea is dangerous. Its members were sprayed with water as they tried to check radiation levels in the area which registered up to 70 times above normal. Greenpeace says it will take further action if the ship returns.

JOHN SPRANGE, Greenpeace: If it comes out again, we will do what we can to stop it. We will now try and utilize the full resources of our international organizations to stop this dump.

MR. SYMONDS: Japan has demanded a halt to the dumping but the Russians say they will be dumping another 800 tons into the sea. They say they have no other choice. Russia hasn't got other waste facilities, and its storage tankers are in a bad state of repair.

MR. LEHRER: Russian President Boris Yeltsin lifted the state of emergency in Moscow today. Troops and tanks were withdrawn from the city. Yeltsin imposed the state of emergency two weeks ago when hard-liners launched an armed uprising. Thousands of people were later detained for curfew violations or criminal offenses, and 7500 were actually expelled from Moscow. And that's it for the News Summary tonight. Now, it's on to the Haitian military and the U.S. congressional view of events in Haiti, and the Denny beating verdicts. FOCUS - CHARTING THE COURSE

MS. WARNER: First tonight, we look at Haiti. At midnight, a United Nations naval blockade goes into effect around the island nation. It aims to force Haiti's military leaders to live up to an agreement providing for the return of Haiti's elected president, Jean Bertrande-Aristide. In Washington, the Haitian power struggle has provoked a constitutional struggle between President Clinton and Congress. We'll look at both parts of this story after this report from Haiti filed by Alex Thompson of Independent Television News.

ALEX THOMPSON, ITN: Six U.S. warships, two Canadian vessels, a French frigate is en route, the naval cordon is in place around Haiti. It activates at midnight tonight. In the capital, Port-au- Prince, they've been leaving for days now, cramming into the few available buses, paying extortionate prices for a ticket to the hills to safety, but safety from what? In a city that's run for generations on rumor and fear, the veiled threats from local gunmen and the warships at sea are enough to make people move.

SPOKESMAN: [speaking through interpreter] It's all about pressure. Everyone is trying to go to the countryside to hide. That's what everyone is talking about.

MR. THOMPSON: Many here will pay whatever it takes to escape from the city till after October the 30th, the date set for President Aristide's return. Across town, Vadila Tropis is on air broadcasting warnings to stock up on food and fuel, advising anyone living near a military barracks to leave. Drivers listen to this along streets empty by the standards of Port-au-Prince. Foreigners are fast disappearing altogether. On a hotel wall, the Canadian embassy advises its nationals that they ought to leave the country for the time being. And at the airport, mounties, part of the U.N. mission, were already packing their bags and leaving over the weekend. Virtually all the U.N. civilian missions then followed, though its head, Dante Caputo, says this is not a retreat.

DANTE CAPUTO, U.N. Special Envoy: We are not closing this mission. The circumstances are, as far as security is concerned, are not good. There were threats on several of our people, so I decided according to U.N. rules, which are very, very precise, to emigrate into Santa Domingo.

MR. THOMPSON: So they drove in convoy to the airport with fond farewells for local workers and orders not to speak to the press. But one did tell us, "If you think this looks bad on television to the United Nations, how do you think local people feel who look to us to safeguard human rights, and now we're walking out on them?" Ask Haitians what signal this sends to the gunmen and the military and the answer is simple.

PIERRE-RICHARD SAM, Aid Consultant: Victory, as simple as that, victory because I think there is not here in Haiti a condition of negotiation.

MR. THOMPSON: The United Nations found that out the hard way. In their hotel just a handful of staff remains. Months of negotiating with a government they openly call Tan Tan Makuts are in ruins. The blockade is all that's left, they say.

DANTE CAPUTO: What's the other alternative?

MR. THOMPSON: Negotiation?

DANTE CAPUTO: We have negotiated. These people do not respect negotiations.

MR. THOMPSON: Not at all?

DANTE CAPUTO: You have the truth. They violated the agreement, so what's the other alternative? Just to leave the country like this, to leave all this country under control of the paramilitary and Makuts to be killed? Of course, sanctions are not this way, not of the best means, but I think it's the only one we have left.

MR. THOMPSON: So just who are the Makuts Caputo talks of? To find out, you can visit the Bar Normandy in central Port-au-Prince, but take an escort for they have guns and a suspicion of outsiders. A former cabinet minister here threatened to murder Aristide if he returns.

DR. JACQUELIN DESPEIGNES, Former Cabinet Minister: He won't be coming back. Do you know why?

MR. THOMPSON: Why?

DR. JACQUELIN DESPEIGNES: He's a chicken. If he comes, he's going to be easy target, an easy target and fair game.

MR. THOMPSON: What do you mean an easy target and fair game?

DR. JACQUELIN DESPEIGNES: We will kill him.

MR. THOMPSON: His friend accused Aristide of breaking the constitution, using a foreign power against the country.

SENATOR REYNELD GEORGES: When he asked for force, foreign forces to come in this country to take control of this country, this is against our constitution, Article 21. I want you to film that. He knows all about it. General Francois is a good man. General Cedras is a good man. We owe it to our children and to our children's children so we will defendour country by force.

MR. THOMPSON: Many of these men are attaches with licensed guns and license to intimidate. When Aristide was elected with a landslide, they lost their rackets, and they lost some of their friends too in reprisals. And so they chant for Michel Francois, Haiti's notorious police chief, and the main obstacle to Aristide's return.

SARAH DECOSSE, Human Rights Lawyer: The attaches are folks linked to the military, men who in several cases formerly had taken part in the Tan Tan Makuts, and they now are sort of the enforcers for the Haitian military and police.

MR. THOMPSON: Marie, a wealthy Aristide supporter, dragged from church last month and shot dead. Gee Mallory, justice minister, killed with two bodyguards last week, his crime, cooperating with U.N. plans to separate the judiciary from the military Makut machine. Port-au-Prince police station where real power lies with the elusive police chief Michel Francois whose brother says neither the chief nor the general should stand down.

EVANS FRANCOIS: If you understand that kicking some people out of the scene, of the national scene, could solve the problem, you will make it worse.

MR. THOMPSON: But Monsieur Francois has let it be known it was the military that signed the deal with the U.N. to allow back President Aristide, not him. And if he rejects it, so will thousands of policemen and their civilian gangsters, the so-called "attache." So the standoff between them and the United Nations led by the U.S. has begun.

MS. WARNER: Earlier today, I talked with Haiti's top military leader, Lt. Gen. Raoul Cedras from his office and army headquarters in Port-au-Prince. Due to technical problems, only the translator's voice is audible in the first portion of the interview.

MS. WARNER: General, thank you very much for joining us. Let me start by asking you why, in your opinion, the Governors Island Agreement has broken down, which just to explain to our viewers, of course, would have required you to resign on Friday to clear the way for President Aristide to return on the 30th of October.

GENERAL RAOUL CEDRAS: [speaking through interpreter] He will. He wants to tell you very clearly that the Governors Island Agreement has not been cancelled. He wants very much the application of the Governors Island Agreement. It seems that until today there has been a certain block in the application of the agreement. I think we necessarily must reach the end of the agreement, of the accord, I mean, reaching October 30th, and what refers to my resigning, there has never been, it's never been the matter of the Governors Island Agreement. My resigning has never been the matter. The Governors Island Agreement stipulates that I would ask a premature leave of charge. I think that we need to continue with the application of the Governors Island Accord. The application of the Governors Island Agreement must be strict. The Governors Island Agreement is a chronological sequence.

MS. WARNER: What specifically needs to happen?

GENERAL CEDRAS: [speaking through interpreter] The principle, the main point in the law of amnesty, that is stipulated by Article 5 of the Governors Island Agreement. I know there is a whole controversy about the amnesty. The president of the republic issued a presidential decree of amnesty. This presidential decree has been judged insufficient by legal experts of our country.

MS. WARNER: If parliament does make this presidential decree of amnesty a law, then is that enough to go forward then with the remainder of the agreement, which includes your resignation or your leaving?

GENERAL CEDRAS: [speaking through interpreter] The amnesty law is part of the sequence that is stipulated within the Governors Island Agreement. We have the -- we pretend to have a word of honor. We have signed, and we shall respect what we have signed.

MS. WARNER: Meanwhile, tonight then a naval blockade of your country is about to begin. What effect is that going to have on the search for a political settlement here?

GENERAL CEDRAS: [speaking through interpreter] We have spent 24 months under embargo. This has not given the expected results. This embargo augmented the suffering of the Haitian people. There is an international organism which revealed in a report that the embargo has killed 10,000 people, made 10,000 victims among the population of Haiti. The blockade which you're referring to will make even higher the suffering of the people of Haiti. I think the solution is in dialogue, dialogue that must lead us to national reconciliation, and this is the spirit of the Governors Island Agreement.

MS. WARNER: If the blockade goes forward, are Americans in Haiti going to be in any danger?

GENERAL CEDRAS: [speaking through interpreter] American citizens are safe in Haiti. This is also the case of all foreigners in Haiti. Haitian hospitality is world known. Even on these last days when we've had American ships near our cost, this has caused certain worries among the population. The population is concerned because it feels threatened. No attack has been registered against a foreign citizen in Haiti.

MS. WARNER: Can you personally guarantee the safety of Americans and other foreigners?

GENERAL CEDRAS: [speaking through interpreter] We have taken all the measures to guarantee the security of foreign citizens and of Haitian citizens. The country is calm. There is no disorder in the country.

MS. WARNER: Is Prime Minister Malval safe and the other members of President Aristide's government?

GENERAL CEDRAS: [speaking through interpreter] Measures have been taken since the beginning for the protection of the members of the government.

MS. WARNER: Then how do you explain the killing of the justice minister, Gee Mallory, last week?

GENERAL CEDRAS: [speaking through interpreter] First of all I must tell you that we are living in a very divided society. Measures have been taken for the protection of members of the government, but it is they, that day, the minister of justice didn't -- the minister of justice did not judge to move about with the security that had been provided to him by us. The events that occurred in the United States have proved that the security of important personalities is never guaranteed 100 percent. The armed forces have deployed and have condemned this act. We have written a letter of sympathy to the government, and we have taken exceptional measures for their security.

MS. WARNER: And who was responsible for the killing of Gee Mallory?

GENERAL CEDRAS: [speaking through interpreter] An inquiry has been opened by the government. It is the law in our country that the officials of the Justice Department are those who will lead inquiries in Haiti. The armed forces are there as auxiliary to the justice system.

MS. WARNER: Let me ask you about Col. Francois, the national police chief. There's a feeling in Washington, General, that though he's ostensibly subject to your command, that, in fact, he is really running the show in Haiti. How much control do you have over Col. Francois?

GENERAL CEDRAS: [speaking through interpreter] Col. Francois is a professional military man. He is under my command, and he cannot go beyond the regulations of the armed forces. The perception that has been tried, that one has tried to project is that there would exist, there would be a sort of division within the armed forces. The army remained under this 24 months despite provocations, it remained united.

MS. WARNER: General, you oversaw voter security in the election in 1991 by President Aristide, who won with 70 percent of the vote. Do you recognize him as the legitimate president of Haiti?

GENERAL CEDRAS: [speaking through interpreter] On February the 7th, President Aristide was sworn in. I personally and the entire armed forces, all of the armed forces of Haiti, have spent the seven months of his government in full cooperation with the government and the other institutions.

MS. WARNER: So you do recognize him as the legitimate president of Haiti?

GENERAL CEDRAS: [speaking through interpreter] He came to power through elections, yes.

MS. WARNER: If President Clinton does not welcome your suggestion for further dialogue and is determined to restore President Aristide to power, does that lie within the power of the United States?

GENERAL CEDRAS: [speaking through interpreter] The matter of restoring President Aristide is not the matter, it's not Mr. Clinton's. It is the Governors Island Agreement that stipulates the return of President Aristide.

MS. WARNER: Do you think that President Clinton may send American military force to restore President Aristide? Do you think that's a possibility?

GENERAL CEDRAS: [speaking through interpreter] That solution would bring suffering, blood, and tears to my country. I will tell you an anecdote. In a village there was a wise man. A young man wanted to have him solve a problem that had no solution. He put a live bird in his hands, and he asked him, he asked the wise man, "Is the bird alive or dead?" If the wise man said that the bird was alive, he would just open his hands and the bird would fly away alive. If he had said that the bird was dead, he only had to press his hands and kill it. And the wise man answered, "The bird is in your hands."

MS. WARNER: Do you have a message for President Clinton?

GENERAL CEDRAS: [speaking through interpreter] He just gave the message with the anecdote.

MS. WARNER: Well, thank you, General, for joining us.

GENERAL CEDRAS: Thank you, ma'am.

MR. LEHRER: Now the congressional debate over the United States response to events in Haiti. Sen. Richard Lugar, Republican of Indiana, is a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. Sen. Bob Graham, Democrat of Florida, and Sen. John McCain, Republican of Arizona, are members of the Senate Armed Services Committee. Congressman Charles Rangel, Democrat of New York, was among a group of congressmen who met with the President last week and urged a blockade of Haiti. First, Sen. Lugar, anything that you heard the general say there in Haiti give you hope?

SEN. LUGAR: I suspect that there is always hope, but I think for the moment that the military people in Haiti are not prepared to receive President Aristide, and, in fact, for three months after the Governors Island Accord of July the 3rd, over 100 people have been killed in Haiti, which ought to have given us a pretty good idea of the temper of the times there before we began to intervene with a shipment of our forces the other day. I, I suspect that if you were the general we just saw this evening and you felt that your life was threatened, as do apparently many of the military, the police people in Haiti, you would not be particularly cooperative. I thought he was remarkably diplomatic, but I see a very stiff general there and a situation which we can impose the sanctions, impoverish the Haitians for another two or three months before even by any estimate the oil supplies begin to run out.

MR. LEHRER: Sen. Graham, do you agree? Did you see any give there on the part of Gen. Cedras?

SEN. GRAHAM: No. I had breakfast with Gen. Cedras last Tuesday, and he used almost exactly the same words. In fact, his statement as to whether he would comply with the Governors Island Accord was identical to what he said a week ago. And since that time we have seen the military fail to provide the security to offload U.S. troops off the U.S.S. Harlen County. We have seen Gen. Cedras fail to meet his commitment under the Governors Island Accord which was to accept early retirement from the military. So I think that Gen. Cedras should be judged by his actions not by his words.

MR. LEHRER: And, and there was nothing -- in other words, we shouldn't believe a word he said.

SEN. GRAHAM: I'm not prepared to be that mean-spirited towards Gen. Cedras, but I personally will take his actions as the best indicator of what his intentions are as opposed to his rhetoric.

MR. LEHRER: Sen. McCain, how about you? Did you see anything there that, that made you believe that there could be a way out of this short of further confrontation?

SEN. McCAIN: Not that I can see, and I'm less generous in my estimate than Bob is. I don't believe a word he said, because, as Bob said, his actions have totally blighted his words. He's been well coached as to what to say to media in the United States. I would point out that the United States has got to get its act together. We had intelligence reports that were known in the Defense Department in the government that we shouldn't send that ship there with 200 or 300 or 600 lightly armed Americans. It was embarrassing for us to have to leave. It increased the general's prestige, because perception now in Haiti is that they scared off the United States of America, and also if I could just mention one thing, Jim --

MR. LEHRER: Sure.

SEN. McCAIN: -- let's remember the history of our relations with Haiti. We occupied that country for 19 years. And I don't know anybody who thinks that Haiti is better off for the experience. In fact, there's a residue very much of a lot of hatred towards the United States because of that. And so I would exercise extreme caution about what we threaten to do to Haiti, because we may someday be called upon to carry it out, and I don't want to get us into some kind of an, of an occupation again, as we did earlier in this century.

MR. LEHRER: I'm going to get to that very directly in a moment, but I want to go to Congressman Rangel first for your reaction to what the general told Margaret.

REP. RANGEL: The general doesn't assume any responsibilities for any of the killings that have taken place, the violence, and he doesn't even admit to being in charge of the coup. I wonder why he was there at Governors Island signing the accords. He claims he's not responsible. It's only the police and the military that have the guns, not the victims, not the poor folks. I think that what we have to do is say that if the United States has indicated and encouraged those brave Haitians to go to a bargaining table and to cooperate to bring about peace, the least we can do is see that we back them up.

MR. LEHRER: Congressman Rangel, let's go at the issue though. Sen. Dole said he's going to introduce an amendment in the Senate that would, would restrict drastically President Clinton's ability to introduce military forces down there, and he says the reason that he's going to do that, that he does not believe it's worth an American life to restore President Aristide in Haiti. What's your reaction to that? Basic comment.

REP. RANGEL: I think that's a mean-spirited, partisan statement. The issue is not President Aristide. The issue is the restoration of democracy and return of a President that was duly elected. But when you make a blatant appeal to the parents of the American men and women that serve that is, are their lives worth that of somebody, where was Sen. Dole when those courageous soldiers went into Panama and kidnapped Noriega? Where was Sen. Dole when Kuwait was bombed? Did he restrict the powers of the President? I think that you play into the hands of the thugs and the corrupt people in Haiti that are killing and selling drugs and thumbing their nose up at the United Nations, the Organization of American States, and the United States, and then he asks, is it worth an American life? That's an emotional thing that should not be phrased that way.

MR. LEHRER: Sen. Lugar, you said you agreed with Sen. Dole.

SEN. LUGAR: Yes. I think that authorization is required before people are sent into harm's way in a large operation which clearly would be involved in restoration of President Aristide. I think that Congressman Rangel makes a good point, that before Americans are sent anywhere there ought to be debate by the Congress, and there ought to be proper authorization. The War Powers Resolution requires that at least if people are to be there sixty to ninety days, and this is only after a President responds in an absolute emergency. This is one that we can debate and go in with our eyes wide open. And it seems to me that the votes ought to be on the board of members of the House and Senate before there is an invasion of Haiti, and that clearly would be required to restore Aristide and to keep him there and to wring out the problem so that democracy might be sustained.

MR. LEHRER: Sen. Graham, what's your position on the Dole amendment?

SEN. GRAHAM: Well, I disagree with the assessment of Sen. Lugar. I do not believe an invasion is our only means of restoring democracy in Haiti. I believe that there is still some hope in the Governors Island Accord. I would not say it's a 50/50 hope but I think it's enough that it justifies that we continue to pursue it to the end. I think it's important to understand what was the United States military in Haiti. It was not as combatants. It was not even as blue-helmeted peacekeepers. We were being sent there to be CB's and Corps of Engineers and educators and work with the Haitian people and the military to try to convert the military towards one that could understand what its role was in a democracy and to give them some skills to do what our military has done, build roads, build bridges, do the kinds of things that make a military an important part of the uplift of the country, not its terrorization. I think those are very appropriate roles for the United States military, and they would be precluded by the resolution as currently drafted by Sen. Dole.

REP. RANGEL: May I say this --

MR. LEHRER: Sen. McCain, how do you feel about this?

SEN. McCAIN: Well, first of all, clearly the climate is not such that they can carry out those humanitarian projects, and if you want them to do that, you'd have to protect them in the present climate. So as utopian as that view is, it's certainly not practical. I won't askthe question as to whether it's worth American life. I think perhaps an even more legitimate question may be: Does a U.S. military incursion in Haiti meet the criteria that President Clinton laid out in his speech at the United Nations, the four criteria? And I would say the answer is no. And we'll leave the American lives out of it. I would ask the question: Is it in the United States' vital national security interest to go into Haiti? I think the question is clearly no. I think there's certain importance being in our hemisphere but not to the point where we have to launch an invasion and pacify that country.

MR. LEHRER: Do you think -- excuse me, Sen. McCain, do you think that that decision that you just outlined should be the President's, or do you think the Congress should, in fact, pass a resolution saying along the lines that Sen. Dole is saying?

SEN. McCAIN: I have to tell you, Jim, I'm very nervous about and uneasy about what role Congress does and does not play, and I think that should be subject to another debate. The War Powers Act is clearly inoperative. Congress has to play a role. There is a vacuum in foreign policy because the mishandling of foreign policy by the Clinton administration, therefore, Congress, both Republican and Democratic, are asserting themselves. I'm very nervous about some sort of preemptive preclusion, but I'd like to look at the exact words of Sen. Dole's amendment, and what I'd like to see, and I think all of us would like to see, is a better communication between all of us so we can agree and not have this kind of confrontation which is not necessary.

MR. LEHRER: Congressman Rangel.

REP. RANGEL: I don't --

SEN. GRAHAM: I think we have a national interest in Haiti. Haiti is not Somalia. Haiti is 800 miles off our coast. If Haiti collapses, we know what's going to happen. We'll have tens, if not hundreds of thousands, of refugees on our shores. We know that Haiti will continue to be an expanded based for the trans-shipment of drugs. We know that a signal will be sent to the other fragile democracies in the Caribbean and Latin America that the International Community is impotent in terms of protecting a democracy under assault. Those are important national interests of the United States, and the limited specific mission that was assigned to the United States military in hopes of carrying out the goals of restoration of democracy in Haiti I think are very prudent and appropriate.

MR. LEHRER: Let me ask -- let me ask Congressman Rangel a question.

REP. RANGEL: May I just say this on the question of military.

MR. LEHRER: Congressman, let's say that the limited mission that Sen. Graham correctly outlined, which was the original purpose of sending whatever, Canadian and U.S. forces in there, let's say that as a result of a blockade, let's say as a result of circumstances in the next few days, it doesn't work. Would you support the use of large, a large U.S. military force to get this thing turned around?

REP. RANGEL: First of all, to President Clinton's credit, this is not a United States excursion into the affairs of Haiti. This is something that has been negotiated not only through the Organization of American States but through the United Nations with their negotiator. Clearly, we have to have some teeth to enforce such an agreement, and so if, indeed, the embargo doesn't work, the question before the civilized world and International Community is: How many people have to die before we do something? And I do believe that since the United States has supported the U.N., we have to do our share. But I'm sick and tired of people having to believe that whenever we say the United nations, that means the U.S. Marines. There are plenty of forces around this world in the region, in the OAS, that should be asked to carry their responsibility as well. And I have to agree with Sen. McCain that the, the record of the United States Marines being in Haiti is not one that either country can be particularly proud.

MR. LEHRER: But as a basic premise, whether it's the U.S. Marines or the Canadian Marines or the Zimbabwe Marines or whoever, there should be somebody's Marines that goes in there to make sure that people don't die in Haiti. Is that what --

REP. RANGEL: There's no question about it. The credibility and the prestige of the United States and the U.N. is on the line. The only people violating the accords is not Aristide. He's granted amnesty. It's not the International Community; they provided the technicians and the money. It's not the parliament; they've enacted the law and confirmed the prime minister. The Haitians have come forward. They've had the courage to stand beside their government, and the only one breaching the agreement are the ones with the guns, Francois, who allegedly is now supposed to be under the general. Who's doing the killing? Who is trying to stop the killings? The blood is flowing in the streets. So yes, you need someone to go in and stop the killings.

MR. LEHRER: Senator --

SEN. GRAHAM: Jim, with all due respect, I know of no nation besides the United States, besides the United States that has the capability much less the will to go into Haiti. That's fact.

MR. LEHRER: And so -- but do you disagree with Congressman Rangel's basic premise though, that the world should do something to prevent this?

SEN. GRAHAM: If the world wants to do it, that's one view, and I would not be opposed to that. But the reality is that no nation in this hemisphere or in the world is willing to go in militarily. They will expect the United States to do it. I'm not prepared for the United States to do it. In fact, back as long ago as the winter of 1992, you had countries like Jamaica, countries like Argentina, that were saying that the International Community and particularly the democracies of the Western Hemisphere ought to unite to put military pressure on Haiti. We were dragging far behind what other democracies saw as their proper roles.

MR. LEHRER: Well, Sen. Graham --

SEN. McCAIN: I will eagerly await the Argentinean invasion.

REP. RANGEL: If we walk away from this, we are sending a message to all of the fragile democracies in this hemisphere that any general that has any disagreement with any president, you just have your coup. President Bush said it. President Clinton said it, that we stand committed to the restoration of democracy and the return of Aristide. If the Congress cuts and runs from this, it will be a low day in the history of the United States.

MR. LEHRER: Sen. Lugar, do you agree with what Congressman Rangel just said?

SEN. LUGAR: No, I don't. And I'm reminded of the debate we had last week on Somalia in which a number of people came to some humility and when we began talking about nation building and putting together democracy and making it stick. We came to an agreement there that that was beyond our capability. It is beyond our capabilities to make a government in Haiti stick and to have the ability to try to work out the civil rights problems of people who have been killing each other for a long period of time. Now, given time and diplomacy and foreign influences and a lot of people from different countries in Haiti, the situation could improve, but it is audacious to suspect that simply because there is trouble there, somebody could invade, straighten it out, and occupy the country until everybody agrees with us.

MR. LEHRER: Sen. Graham.

SEN. GRAHAM: I don't think we ought to take any option off the table. At this time I don't believe it contributes to the completion of the Governors Island Accord, whatever percentage you think may still be left in it, but to be saber rattling. That's the kind of language that Gen. Cedras will use to stir up patriotic venom and turn this away from the human rights violations in Haiti to Haiti versus the world relationship. But I believe that we should continue to pursue those things that will keep maximum pressure on the military, to see that they comply with their commitments under Governors Island. If October 30th comes and goes and generals have still refused to allow President Aristide to resume his presidency, then I think the table is cleared for another set of options.

MR. LEHRER: Sen. McCain, what do you think about the blockade? Do you think the blockade is going to be effective?

SEN. McCAIN: I think the embargo is going to have marginal effects as they have throughout history. I'd also like to point out, Jim, that the worst thing that a nation can do is threaten the use of force and then not do it. We've got to be prepared if you're going to do it, and I don't think the American people will support a massive military involvement in Haiti, so I'd be very, very restrained in threatening that option.

MR. LEHRER: Congressman Rangel, the Senator's right, is he not? If you're going to threaten military action, you'd better be prepared to use it?

REP. RANGEL: First of all, I was talking about the United Nations --

MR. LEHRER: All right.

REP. RANGEL: -- and I just can't believe for that rag tag 7,000 group of thugs that have never fired a shot at anybody, much less Gen. Cedras says the foreigners are safe, anybody with a gun is safe. The only people they shoot are the powerless Haitians that are there. And the real question is: How long will the U.N. be able to say they can take these killings without doing something? So I'm not saying that we should send in the Marines before the 30th. But for God's sake, if Cedras truly believed we're not going to do anything, he can sit at the table, sign the accords, continue supporting the killings, and then where does it stop? I really think we should put our cards on the table and tell the general that if people continue to be massacred and killed the way they are, that the U.N. intends to take steps.

MR. LEHRER: We have to leave it there, gentlemen. Thank you all four very much. FOCUS - VERDICT

MS. WARNER: Next tonight, the verdicts in the trial of two men accused of beating truck driver Reginald Denny and others. The assaults took place in the first hours of last year's Los Angeles riot. Today a Los Angeles jury returned mixed verdicts on the actions of the two defendants, twenty-year-old Damian Williams and twenty-nine-year-old Henry Watson. Correspondent Jeffrey Kaye of public station KCET-Los Angeles reports.

JUDGE: Okay. I'll ask the clerk to please read the verdict.

MR. KAYE: Although there were a number of "not guilty" verdicts, one of the defendants, Damian Williams, still has a potential life sentence hanging over him as jurors continue to deliberate the charge that Williams attempted to murder truck driver Reginald Denny. In brief, here's what the ten woman, two man jury decided. There were a total of six guilty verdicts, five on Williams, one on Henry Watson. On all the guilty verdicts read so far, the jury had a choice between lesser and more serious charges, and chose the lesser charges. Williams was found guilty of misdemeanor assaults of X-ray technician Alicia Maldonado, printer Takao Hirata, law student Jorge Gonzales, and construction worker Fidel Lopez. Penalties on those assaults carry a maximum of six months in jail each. Williams was charged and found innocent of the more serious charges of assault with a deadly weapon on the same victims. Williams was found guilty of mayhem against Denny, a charge with a maximum of eight years, but acquitted on the charge of aggravated mayhem for which he could have received life. Co-defendant Watson was found guilty of simple assault of truck driver Reginald Denny. Tapes show Watson putting his foot on Denny's neck. Watson was acquitted of trying to kill Denny. He was also acquitted of assaulting Maldonado and found not guilty of robbing trucker Larry Tarvin. Many of the serious counts relied heavily on the allegation by prosecutors that the defendants aided and abetted the criminal acts of others. Today's verdict seemed to indicate that jurors believe the defendants were responsible only for their own actions.

JUDGE: Do you think that any further deliberations would be helpful, or do you think that I could instruct the jury on some point of law that might be helpful in coming to a verdict on the undecided counts?

JUROR: Yes, I do. I feel that is needed.

MR. KAYE: Several of the anonymous jurors told the judge that further deliberations might lead to verdicts in the three remaining charges. The jury is deadlocked on assault and robbery counts as well as the charge that Williams attempted to murder Denny. Prosecutors refused comment as did the often outspoken mother of Williams. A representative of the Williams family expressed elation at today's verdicts.

DON JACKSON, Williams Family Representative: We just think that the prosecution made a big mistake in this case. They underestimated the community. They underestimated the defense team. The underestimated Mrs. Williams.

MR. KAYE: Jury deliberations were contentious and controversial. Three jurors were removed during the course of deliberations, one man for personal reasons, another for misconduct after he discussed the case with friends. A third juror, a woman, was removed at the request of all the other jurors who complained and the judge agreed that she had failed to deliberate. The judge's extraordinary decision to remove that juror resulted in a request for a mistrial by the defense, a motion which the judge denied.

EDI FAAL, Defense Attorney: I intend to move for the court to issue an order of acquittal on all counts.

MR. KAYE: Williams' attorney, Edi Faal, indicated that he will press for not guilty rulings because of the juror replacements.

SPOKESMAN: This trial was not about the rebellion that happened in LA.

MR. KAYE: Outside the courtroom, protesters rallied in support of the defendants. If the convictions so far stand, Williams could be sentenced to ten years in jail and Watson six months. That would make Watson a free man since he's already served nineteen months.

MS. WARNER: Late today, the jury came back with one more verdict. They found Henry Watson not guilty of second degree robbery in a case involving someone other than Denny. They said they were deadlocked on two remaining counts, a charge of assault with a deadly weapon against Watson, and an attempted murder charge against Damian Williams. The judge ordered the jurors to continue their deliberations tomorrow. ESSAY - STAR BRIGHT

MR. LEHRER: Finally tonight, essayist and science writer Timothy Ferris has some thoughts about distant light.

TIMOTHY FERRIS: Eleven million years ago, before there was any such thing as a human being, a star exploded in this galaxy 11 million light years away. Light bringing news of this distant catastrophe reached Earth earlier this year. The first human to see it was an amateur astronomer, Francisco Garcia Diaz, who was observing with a small telescope in the backyard of his home in Lugo, Spain. As you'd expect in a scientific age, the people most intrigued by the terrestrial news are scientists. Astronomers and physicists around the world are studying the exploding star known as Super Nova 1993 J. They want to know whether Super Novae trigger the birth of new stars, and how they forge atoms that will compromise future stars and planets. The iron in our blood, the oxygen we breathe, and the gold of our jewelry were all made in stars that died before the sun was born. But Super Novae are of more than just technical interest. They've influenced ideas too, changed the course of human history as surely as if they'd bent down and whispered in our ears. The scientific renaissance had wrenched the earth from the place of honor at the center of the medieval universe was in a sense initiated by an exploding star. It all started on the evening of November 11, 1572, when the renaissance astronomer Tyco Brye, out for a walk after dinner, was stopped in his tracks by the site of a star where none had been visible before. Tyco's Super Nova came as a shock to the authorities. The Roman Catholic Church, taking its cue from the great Aristotle, agreed that the heavens were made an unchanging ether, fundamentally different from the stones of earth. The earth might change but the heavens did not. Yet, here in the heavens was something new, evidence of change where official dogmas said change was forbidden. By great good luck, another Super Nova appeared in European skies only 32 years later. The radical young astronomer Galileo lectured on it to packed halls at the University of Padua in Italy. Galileo delighted in poking fun at the Aristotleans, noting that the exploding star made a mockery of their belief that the Earth stands still at the center of an unchanging universe. It was famously upsetting to find that we're not at the center of things. The modern connotations of the word revolutionary come from the title of the book On the Revolutions in which Copernicus proposed that the Earth moves. In the long run, the Copernican revolution has served to reconcile us with the universe. It's helped us understand that not just human affairs but everything is endlessly changing. The science of astrophysics arose from this realization of cosmic unity as will no doubt songs and poems as yet unwritten. A tantalizing hint of an even older dialogue between exploding stars and the human mind may be found on a Mesopotamian clay tablet stored in the British Museum. The tablet dates from about 1500 B.C. As translated by the American scholar George Mickenowski, the inscription refers to a bright star in the constellation Villa, a star that the Samarians associated with the god of astronomy, mathematics, and the written word. There is no such bright star in Villa today, but in the position marked on the ancient tablet radio astronomers have found this cloud of debris, a remnant of a Super Nova that exploded some four great thousand years ago at about thetime the Samarians were developing astronomy, mathematics, writing, and agriculture. Bright enough to cast shadows by night, standing low over the glistening waters of the Persian Gulf, Villa Super Nova would have been an awe inspiring sight, and it may have inspired more than awe. It just may be that the death of this distant star sparked the birth of civilization here on Earth. This is Timothy Ferris. RECAP

MR. LEHRER: Again the major stories of this Monday, President Clinton increased pressure on Haiti's military leaders by freezing their assets in the United States. U.S. warships begin enforcing sanctions against Haiti at midnight tonight. General Raoul Cedras, Haiti's army chief, said in a NewsHour interview, the embargo will only hurt the Haitian people, and a jury in Los Angeles acquitted two black men of most felony charges in the 1992 beating of white truck driver Reginald Denny. They were convicted of several misdemeanors. The jurors remain deadlocked on two other charges. Good night, Margaret.

MS. WARNER: Good night, Jim. We'll see you tomorrow night with a Newsmaker interview with the director of the CIA. I'm Margaret Warner. Thank you, and good night.