The NewsHour with Jim Lehrer

JIM LEHRER: Good evening. I'm Jim Lehrer. On the NewsHour tonight: Our summary of the news; the gathering Iraqi prison storm-- we have pictures and words from inside the prison; one of President Bush's interviews today with Arab journalists, plus reaction and analysis; then, a report from California on using electronic voting machines; and a book conversation about Haiti and Haitian-Americans.

NEWS SUMMARY

JIM LEHRER: President Bush promised the Arab world today that justice will be done in the prisoner abuse scandal in Iraq. He spoke to two satellite TV networks shown in Arab countries. One is funded by the U.S. Government. Mr. Bush said it was abhorrent to see American soldiers forcing naked Iraqis into sexual poses. And he insisted the U.S. will do the right thing.

PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: We want to make sure that is a systemic problem, that is, if there is a problem system wide. that we stop the practices. Again, it's very important for people, your listeners, to understand in our country that when an issue is brought to our attention on this magnitude, we act and we act in a way where leaders are willing to discuss it with the media.

JIM LEHRER: The president did not apologize. But later, his spokesman said: "The president is sorry for what occurred, and the pain it has caused." The new U.S. Commander at the Baghdad prison, where the abuse took place, did apologize today. He also invited the Red Cross to open an office there. We'll have more of the president's statements, and developments in Iraq, right after this News Summary. The number of prisoner deaths under investigation in Iraq and Afghanistan grew to 14 today. The Associated Press reported that includes two new cases added by the CIA. On CBS, Marine General Peter Pace, the vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said he expects the investigations will widen. In Congress today, there were new demands for the Defense Department to tell everything it knows about the abuse problem. Senators from both parties insisted they be given a full accounting.

SEN. CHARLES SCHUMER: Very little could be more counterproductive to this war effort than what has happened here. And the best way to deal with it is come clean and come clean quickly. Find out how often it happened, where it happened, how high up the chain of command it went and exorcise it, get rid of it.

SEN. JOHN McCAIN: There has to be a complete, thorough and independent investigation of this situation. It's time that the Defense Department turned over all relevant documents concerning this. And we need to address it quickly, sooner rather than later.

JIM LEHRER: The Senate Armed Services Committee today asked Defense Secretary Rumsfeld will testify Friday on the abuse scandal. And Democratic Sen. Joe Biden of Delaware said Rumsfeld should resign if he can't fully explain what happened. But President Bush said today, he still has confidence in Rumsfeld and all the military commanders in Iraq. The prisoner abuse story also made it to the presidential campaign today. Democrat John Kerry said the U.S. response had been too slow. He said it's vital to get those answers as quickly as possible, to limit the damage to American credibility. And he said the burden is on the president.

SEN. JOHN KERRY: The United States needs to, the person who speaks on behalf of it, the president of the United States, needs to offer the world an explanation and needs to take appropriate responsibility. If that includes apologizing for the behavior of those soldiers and what happened, we ought to do that.

JIM LEHRER: Kerry said if he were president, he'd hold people accountable and also "make appropriate statements." Four more U.S. soldiers were killed in Iraq today. Three died in fighting with gunmen loyal to radical Shiite leader Muqtdada al-Sadr. Another American was killed when a dump truck rammed his checkpoint in Karbala. The Bush administration wants at least $25 billion for operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, for next fiscal year. It made the request today. The administration said, ultimately, it may ask for twice that amount. All told, the U.S. has spent about $170 billion in Iraq and Afghanistan this year and last. Gunmen in Afghanistan today killed two British citizens working for the United Nations. They were surveying an eastern province to help register voters. Their Afghan interpreter was also killed. More than 300 people have died in violence across Afghanistan so far this year. The country is pressing ahead with plans for elections in September. Three time bombs exploded outside a police station in Athens, Greece, today. No one was hurt, but the attack came just 100 days before the city hosts the 2004 Summer Olympics. We have a report narrated by Louise Bates of Associated Press Television News.

LOUISE BATES: The three bombs went off before dawn within half an hour, shattering windows in a densely populated neighborhood. A telephoned warning was given to an Athens newspaper before the attack. Police insist the bombings were linked to domestic groups; not international terrorism. Likewise, the government was quick to dispel any link between the attack and the upcoming games.

KONSTANTINOS KARAMANLIS, Prime Minister, Greece: This is an isolated incident which does not affect, whatsoever, the safety of the Olympic preparation of the country.

LOUISE BATES: Such reassurances haven't eased concerns among Olympic officials, who've taken out cancellation insurance for the first time in the event's history. And as construction teams work around the clock, some U.S. officials have expressed fears that delays could undercut safety testing. Greek authorities, however, insist the games will be on schedule, without any compromises in security.

JIM LEHRER: There was no immediate claim of responsibility for today's bombings. Israeli soldiers killed a senior Hamas militant today. Wires service reports said it happened near Nablus, on the West Bank. Hours earlier, Israel released a co-founder of Hamas. He'd been arrested 14 months ago. There was no reason given for the release. Touch-screen voting machines may not be secure enough to use in the November elections. A federal commission heard that today at a public hearing. A computer expert warned the machines are vulnerable to hacking and flaws. But an elections official from Georgia said adding a back-up paper system would only add to the confusion. We'll have more on this story later in the program. On Wall Street today, the Dow Jones Industrial Average lost six points to close below 10,311. The NASDAQ rose more than six points to close at 1957. That's it for the News Summary tonight. Now it's on to: The Iraqi prison tour, the president and the Arab reaction; electronic voting; and a Haitian novelist.

FOCUS - PHOTO FALLOUT

JIM LEHRER: That mounting storm over the Iraqi prison abuses. Kwame Holman begins.

KWAME HOLMAN: The U.S. Military opened the doors of Abu Ghraib Prison on the outskirts of Baghdad to a press tour today. It is the site where photos were taken of U.S. soldiers abusing Iraqi prisoners, provoking condemnation around the world. The cries of some of the more than 3,000 Iraqis still detained at the prison could be heard, as Arab and western reporters were given a limited look inside the prison walls. Under Saddam Hussein, Abu Ghraib was a notorious center for torture and killing. It was in cellblock 1-a where these photographs were taken of smiling American guards standing beside Iraqi prisoners in humiliating and degrading positions. Signs now posted on the walls read: "No photography-- none of any type at all," and instruct soldiers to report any abuse of detainees. The head of the military intelligence unit at Abu Ghraib led the media tour.

COL. FOSTER PAYNE: What I would like to do is show you one of two interrogation facilities. This is where our interrogators go in with an analyst. These interrogations normally run between one and four hours. You will also have the opportunity to go behind the two-way mirror that allows you visibility in the booth. These two-way mirrors allow us to monitor the interrogations.

KWAME HOLMAN: After the tour, Major General Geoffrey Miller, commander of coalition prisons in Iraq, offered his apology for what happened at Abu Ghraib.

MAJ. GEN. GEOFFREY MILLER: I would like to personally apologize to the people of Iraq for the actions of a small number of leaders and soldiers that violated our policy and may have committed criminal acts. We are investigating those acts as rapidly as possible, and we will bring those responsible to the bar of justice. We believe that we will be able to start to gain the trust and confidence of the Iraqi people by conducting our operations in as open a way as we can, by following our own procedures and those procedures are internationally recognized for humane detention and proper interrogation. We will do that everyday. That is my personal responsibility to ensure that happens.

KWAME HOLMAN: And at a briefing in Baghdad today, Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt gave his apology to the Iraqi people.

BRIG. GEN. MARK KIMMITT: My army's been embarrassed by this, my army's been shamed by this. And on behalf of my army, I apologize for what those soldiers did to your citizens. It was reprehensible and it was unacceptable. And it is more than just words, but we have to take those words into action and ensure that never happens again. What I can give you is a guarantee that the United States army will make a full-faith effort to do everything it can in its power in training in resourcing and discipline to ensure this never happens again. Is it a failsafe, 100 percent guarantee? I wish I could stand up here and promise you that. Is it as close to a 100 percent guarantee that one can reasonably expect? That I can guarantee you. (Chanting)

KWAME HOLMAN: Outside the prison, hundreds of Iraqis expressed anger about the prison abuse, chanting anti-American slogans and waving Iraqi flags.

MAN (Translated): These U.S. soldiers' practices are flagrant aggression, a big crime and humiliation to all Iraqis.

KWAME HOLMAN: Many of the protesters had relatives inside the prison.

WOMAN (Translated): The U.S. soldiers broke into the house and took my husband. And we haven't had any information about him for four months.

KWAME HOLMAN: And in central Baghdad, Iraqis watched and listened as President Bush's interviews with Arab language TV networks were broadcast.

JIM LEHRER: Now, to an extended excerpt of President Bush's interview with one of the satellite channels broadcast to the Arab world. This one was with Al-Hurra, which is funded by the U.S. Government.

MOUAFAC HARB, Al-Hurra TV: Mr. President, thank you for agreeing to do this interview with us. Evidence of torture of Iraqi prisoners by U.S. personnel has left many Iraqis and people in the Middle East and the Arab world with the impression that the United States is no better than Saddam Hussein's regime...

PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: Hm.

MOUAFAC HARB: ...Especially when those alleged torture took place in the Abu Ghraib prison...

PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: Mm-hmm.

MOUAFAC HARB: ...A symbol of torture, of life under Saddam.

PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: Yeah.

MOUAFAC HARB: What can the U.S. do? What can we do to get out of this?

PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: First, people in Iraq must understand that I view those practices as abhorrent. They must also understand that what took place in that prison does not represent America that I know. The America I know is a compassionate country that believes in freedom. The America I know cares about every individual. The America I know has sent troops into Iraq to promote freedom-- good, honorable citizens that are helping the Iraqis every day. It's also important for the people of Iraq to know that in a democracy, everything is not perfect, that mistakes are made. But in a democracy, as well, those mistakes will be investigated and people will be brought to justice. We're an open society. We're a society that is willing to investigate, fully investigate, in this case, what took place in that prison. That stands in stark contrast to life under Saddam Hussein. His trained torturers were never brought to justice under his regime. There were no investigations about mistreatment of people. There will be investigations. People will be brought to justice.

MOUAFAC HARB: When did you learn about the... did you see the pictures on TV? When was the first time you heard about this?

PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: Yeah, the first time I saw or heard about pictures was on TV. However, as you might remember, in early January, General Kimmitt talked about an investigation that would be taking place about accused... alleged improprieties in the prison. So our government has been in the process of investigating. And there are two... more than two investigations, multiple investigations going on, some of them related to any criminal charges that may be filed. And in our system of law, it's essential that those criminal charges go forward without prejudice. In other words, people need to, you know, need to be... are treated innocent until proven guilty. And facts are now being gathered. And secondly, there is investigations to determine how widespread abuse may be occurring. And we want to know the truth. I talked to the secretary of defense about this this morning, by the way. I said, "find the truth, and then tell the Iraqi people and the world the truth." We have nothing to hide. We believe in transparency because we're a free society. That's what free societies do. They... if there's a problem, they address those problems in a forthright, up-front manner. And that's what's taking place.

MOUAFAC HARB: Mr. President, in a democracy and free society, as you mentioned, people investigate, but at the same time, even those who are not directly responsible for these events take responsibility. With such a problem of this magnitude, do we expect anyone to step down? Do you still have confidence in the secretary of defense?

PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: Oh, of course, I've got confidence in the secretary of defense, and I've got confidence in the commanders on the ground in Iraq, because they... they and our troops are doing great work on behalf of the Iraqi people. We're finding the few that wanted to try to stop progress toward freedom and democracy. We're helping the Iraqi people stand up a government. We stand side-by-side with the Iraqis that love freedom. And... but people will be held to account. That's what the process does. That's what we do in America. We fully investigate; we let everybody see the results of the investigation; and then people will be held to account.

MOUAFAC HARB: Every year your State Department issues a human rights report about practices around the world and abuses and we call upon countries every once in a while to...

PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: Right.

MOUAFAC HARB: ...Try to put pressure on them to allow international red cross to visit prisons and detention center, would you allow the International Red Cross and other human rights organization to visit prisons under the control of the U.S. Military in Iraq?

PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: Of course, we'll cooperate with the International Red Cross. They'rea vital organization. And we work with the International Red Cross. And you're right, we do point out human rights abuses. We also say to those governments, clean up your act. And that's precisely what America is doing. We've discovered these abuses; they're abhorrent abuses. They do not reflect... the actions of these few people do not reflect the hearts of the American people. The American people are just as appalled at what they have seen on TV as the Iraqi citizens have. The Iraqi citizens must understand that. And, therefore, there will be a full investigation, and justice will be served. And we will do to ourselves what we expect of others. And when we say, "you've got human rights abuses, take care of the problem," we will do the same thing. We're taking care of the problem. And it's... it is unpleasant for Americans to see that some citizens, some soldiers have acted this way, because it does... again, I keep repeating, but it's true-- it doesn't reflect how we think. This is not America. America is a country of justice and law and freedom and treating people with respect.

MOUAFAC HARB: Transferring control of Fallujah, in Iraq, to former army officers under Saddam Hussein led many people in Iraq, and even in the Arab world, to believe that the U.S. is lowering its expectation.

PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: Yes.

MOUAFAC HARB: How would you respond?

PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: Quite the contrary. We're raising expectations. We believe the Iraqi people can self-govern, and we believe the Iraqi people have got the capacity to take care of people who are willing to terrorize innocent Iraqi citizens. And that's what you're seeing in Fallujah. As a matter of fact, the general in charge of the operation in Fallujah had been imprisoned by Saddam Hussein. So he felt the vindictiveness of the Hussein regime. And I've got confidence that Iraq will be a peaceful, self- governing nation. And I also have confidence that, with help, the Iraqi security forces will be strong against foreign terrorists and others who are willing to kill, and criminals who are willing to try to wreak havoc in this society. Listen, there are thousands of Iraqi... innocent Iraqis who are dying at the hands of these killers. And we want to help decent, honorable Iraqi citizens bring peace and security to Iraq.

MOUAFAC HARB: It's been over a year since Saddam Hussein's regime is toppled down, and U.S. allies are in place right now in Iraq. What is your assessment, today, of U.S. allies and the governing council and the various factions of the Iraqi government?

PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: Yes, well, first, I think we've made a lot of progress in a year.

MOUAFAC HARB: Do you still trust them? Do you still...

PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: Well, I trust the Iraqi people. Let me put it to you that way. I believe the Iraqi people want to be free. By far, the vast majority of Iraqi citizens want to have a life that is peaceful so they can raise their children, see that their children are educated, have a chance for their children to succeed. The business people of Iraq just want a stable environment for them to be able to run their businesses and make a living. People want jobs. I mean, there are normal aspirations in Iraq that give me great confidence in the future of Iraq. People aspire for the same thing in Iraq as we do in America, a chance to succeed. I also have confidence that the process we're under will work, which is to transfer sovereignty on June 30. The people of Iraq must understand sovereignty will be transferred on June 30. And there's a process now inplace to make sure that there's an entity to which we transfer sovereignty. And then there will be elections. And I think the timetable we're on is a realistic timetable; it's one that will be met. And I believe that the elections will help the Iraqi citizens realize that freedom is coming.

MOUAFAC HARB: If I may ask you my final question on the issue of the peace efforts that you are conducting. You supported Prime Minister Sharon's plan to withdraw from Gaza, and you sent senior officials to Israel, and Israeli officials came to Washington and negotiated that plan. Do you think it was a mistake to support a plan before the prime minister secured the support of his own party?

PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: I think when you see a step toward peace, it's important for a peaceful nation like America to embrace it. And I felt that a withdrawal from the Gaza by the Israeli prime minister, as well as the withdrawal from four settlements from the West Bank by the Israeli prime minister, was a step toward peace. And at the time, he did so. I called for the United States and others to seize this moment-- the quartet and the European Union and Russia and the United Nations, and hopefully the World Bank-- to seize this moment and to help the development of a Palestinian state that will be at peace with its neighbors, a Palestinian state that will provide hope for long-suffering Palestinian people. I think this is an historic moment for the world. I think this is a good opportunity to step forth. I am confident that a peaceful Palestinian state can emerge. I'm the first president ever to call for the establishment of a Palestinian state. I still feel strongly that there should be one. I also recognize that we have got a duty, all of us, to fight off the terrorists who are trying to stop the spread of a peaceful Palestinian state, or the creation of a Palestinian state. And now is the time to make progress. And I believe we can. There was a good statement yesterday out of the quartet that confirmed our desire for a Palestinian state to emerge. And it's... what the prime minister of Israel did was took a political risk; obviously he did. I mean, his own party condemned the statement, but that doesn't mean... condemned the policy. However, I still believe it was the right thing for him to do. And we support peace in the Middle East. And we support the vision of two states living side by side in peace.

MOUAFAC HARB: Thank you very much, Mr. President. Thank you.

PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: Good job.

MOUAFAC HARB: Thank you.

JIM LEHRER: Now, some analysis of all this by: Shibley Telhami, a professor at the University of Maryland, and author of the recent book "The Stakes" about Arab and Muslim perceptions of U.S. policy toward the Middle East; and Fouad Ajami, director of Middle East studies at Johns Hopkins University's School of Advanced International Studies.

First, Professor Telhami, what was your own reaction to what the president said specifically about the prisoner abuse situation in Iraq?

SHIBLEY TELHAMI: It's a good thing. It's a good thing that he appeared there. I think it certainly would have been worse if he didn't do it. It's a good thing for America to have the president say it. But in the end hearing the content I think there will be a lot of skepticism in the Middle East. The credibility gap is so huge. It's not just related to this one episode that is horrific and that we watch graphically. It is that this episode reconfirms in people's minds the pre-existing notion about the U.S. And so therefore it's considerably harder because you don't only have to overcome this horrific episode but you have to overcome everything else that comes. And when he gets into the other issues like democracy -- and Arab- Israeli issue, in many ways he reinforces people's fears rather than helps overcome them. So deviating from just stating the problem on the prisoner issue I think was a problem for him because in a way he states the issues in ways that reinforce people's furor in the region.

JIM LEHRER: Fouad Ajami, what was your reaction?

FOUAD AJAMI: Well, Jim, we were not loved in the Arab world the day before yesterday, the day before these pictures were made available, and we saw these horrific scenes. This just simply plays into the stereotypes people have. This has become for many of these Arabs watching us and watching our war in Iraq, it's a referendum for them on the war on Iraq. We should distinguish between people who really genuinely embarrass and genuinely were horrified by these pictures and people who are just ready to beat up on us. I have something here for you to just show you. Here is a newspaper, which is Saudi owned and there is an article by a man who is a very popular columnist in the Arab world. He says that the... it's an evil policy in Iraq, not evil soldiers. Here's another radical Pan-Arab paper published again in London. Most of these people are published in London. For them what happened in Abu Ghraib, in fact, it renders naked the American position in the Arab world. There's a kind of the pun on the word naked. Here's another and my final exhibit. It's al Hayat, a Saudi-owned paper again in London. It speaks poorly of America and poorly at what happened at Abu Ghraib but it speaks poorly of America everyday. It's the same of the press of Hosni Mubarak so people are waiting for us. We just simply played into their hands. For our few friends, we've made them embarrassed, genuinely embarrassed. For our many, many enemies, well, this is just simply more fuel to a raging fire.

JIM LEHRER: So what President Bush said and did today is irrelevant.

FOUAD AJAMI: Well, I actually have always thought this whole public diplomacy is irrelevant. I know my colleague Dr. Telhami feels otherwise. I just think this anti-Americanism is a road rage in the Arab world. It's a force in its own right; it's willful ; it's indifferent to reason. I mean, there are people in these papers who will tell you that there's 100,000 prisoners, that we have prosecution to Iraq. There are people casting aspersion on our mission in Iraq. It's interesting. There are probably more anger, more simulated contrived anger outside Iraq than inside Iraq. Some of the people angry at Abu Ghraib never uttered a word, never uttered a word in Cairo or Nablus or Amman about anything that Saddam did to the people of Iraq, to the Shia, to the Kurds. They have nothing to say about the massacres and the horrors in the southern Sudan that are committed by the Arab Muslims towards the Christians. It's selective rage. It's really selective rage. They were waiting for us. We simply played into their hands with this episode.

JIM LEHRER: Selective rage, professor?

SHIBLEY TELHAMI: No question that it is. Obviously it will be used by militants as a useful tool. But the reality of it is, you know, it is rage -- even if it's selective. The difference is this. Look, we are explaining the war in Iraq on the basis of bringing about democracy and human rights. That has become our primary explanation for what we're doing. So there's a huge difference in explaining what we're doing in those terms and then what we're doing in fact on the ground. That's the problem. I think when you see these pictures, it reinforces the assumption that people had that this has always been a... an occupation of an Arab land for different strategic purposes. It's not just the content of the sexual symbols that are in there. So I think there's a difference between, you know, when we are doing it and when Mubarak is doing it.

JIM LEHRER: So when the president says, as you said in all these interviews and the one we just showed, hey, this is not the America I know. The American people do not support in any way condone this. They're just as upset as you are -- Arab world -- the Arab world says forget it, they don't believe it.

SHIBLEY TELHAMI: Some people will believe it. Most will not. Let me tell you why. There's a credibility gap. The credibility gap is real. We tell Arab leaders all the time, look, don't just do it for public relations reasons and tell us what you want to hear. Tell that to your people and do the thing that you need to do. We're treating this as a public relations thing. I think Fouad is actually right. I don't think public diplomacy is the issue. I think it's what we do that matters in the end. Look, we have said to them that we're investigating a General Boykin who made all these statements about the Muslim god is an idol....

JIM LEHRER: That was a long time ago.

SHIBLEY TELHAMI: Back in October. He's still being investigated. Nothing has happened. We have been accused of violating human rights in Guantanamo, at least not subjecting our self-s to international norms. Human rights issues are brought up. We haven't done a thing about it. So we don't... the president is not talking to our people saying, look, this is an outrageous problem for us let alone the Middle East. This is an outrageous problem for us. We need to go to the bottom of it. We need to take some action for us. Then other people will believe it.

JIM LEHRER: Fouad Ajami, do you just reject the idea that Professor Telhami is saying that we have a real credibility problem in the Arab world, that it's real. It isn't just from our enemies. It's more general than that?

FOUAD AJAMI: No, I think there are two schools of thought here. There are people who say they hate us. What's wrong with us? I actually have another view which is they hate us, what's wrong with them. Why do they have such anti-Americanism infecting their societies? Jim, there's something very interesting which I have dubbed the swap. This is the way this story of Abu Ghraib is being played.

JIM LEHRER: Say that again.

FOUAD AJAMI: The swap.

JIM LEHRER: The swap.

FOUAD AJAMI: Swapping. So the swap is that Abu Ghraib for Sept. 11, 2001. Many many Arab pundits have stepped forth to say, look, we've been under your gaze since Sept. 11, 2001. You've been judging us. And now you can see that you have deviance in your midst. There are perpetrators of these terrible deeds at Abu Ghraib so we're equal. It's not the same. These perpetrators of the deed in Abu Ghraib were a shameless group of men and women who need to be brought to justice and they will. But the Arab story, the Arab rage, the Arab anger and the Arab radicalism, that's much more of a mainstream phenomenon.

JIM LEHRER: Professor Telhami you talk about that it's different with -- Mubarak does something -- it's different than if President Bush does it, something else happens. To pick up on what Fouad Ajami said at the very beginning, that a lot of people in the Arab world were silent when worse things than this were happening Arab on Arab. Why is that? Why is it if when America does it, it's considered a terrible thing -- when other people do it, it is not?

SHIBLEY TELHAMI: First of all it's shameful that they don't say anything about it when Arabs do it. I think there is a lot of need for criticism. They ought to be ashamed of themselves when that happens in their own societies. The problem here is that we're saying we're doing it in the name of freeing them from that, that we are doing it for the purpose exactly of making sure that this doesn't happen. It is, you know, aside from the militants who are extremely happy at seeing these pictures because they're tools and instruments a lot of governments in the Middle East are happy today and they're happy because it is very hard for us here in America, including us who are on boards of human rights organizations, to go out there and say, clean up your act because when the messenger has got a problem, it's harder to sell the message.

JIM LEHRER: Do you believe that the Arab world will now accept the president's vow that we will in fact clean up our act on this, that there will be an investigation, heads will roll, et cetera, under our system?

SHIBLEY TELHAMI: I think people will be watching. Frankly, the credibility gap is so pervasive that it touches not only on issues of this sort. This is only one part of the problem. It has to do with the broader policy toward Iraq, the Arab-Israeli issue, support of authoritarian regimes. All of that is linked. The U.S. is seen to be an anchor of that system. This is only a symptom of the problem not the center of the problem.

JIM LEHRER: You would agree with that, right, Fouad Ajami?

FOUAD AJAMI: I agree. I also want to add to something that Shibley said about the Arab governments. Many Arab governments including allied governments of ours such as the Tunisians or the Egyptians -- they're relieved because we've come to them and said to them, we have this project for reforming the Middle East. We want to bring you liberty. We want to have transparent government. And now they can have us in the middle of this storm. They have a reprieve. They have a reprieve. I think fundamentally they are not sympathetic to what we're doing in Iraq. They wouldn't be sympathetic with Abu Ghraib. They wouldn't be sympathetic without Abu Ghraib.

JIM LEHRER: So our investigation, the U.S. investigation of what happened in that prison isn't going to change any minds or change anything, right? I mean, the idea that... go ahead.

FOUAD AJAMI: You're right. It's not going to change anything. I mean are the people who edit and publish, just to step aside from the Arab world for just a second, are the people in Le Monde, in France, are they going to think of us any differently? Of course not. Our enemies were waiting for us. They were waiting for us to stumble. They were watching our deeds in Iraq. We've done tremendous good in Iraq. I've visited military headquarters in Iraq and Baghdad in Mosul and Kirkuk, we have terrific people there. We can't tell the Arabs this. We can't convince them of this. They have the knowledge they need that we are doing evil deed, that we have brought prostitution and ruin to Iraq. This is what we believe about us that we've come to plunder the Iraqi people.

SHIBLEY TELHAMI: May I disagree with this a little bit. When you look at the impact of these pictures, they're affecting us in America. They're certainly affecting people in Paris; they're affecting people in London. These are pictures that are going to undermine our global... frankly we don't have al Jazeeraand al Arabiya in Europe and Latin America and look at the public opinion polls: Anti-Americanism is at the highest level ever. One can't argue that the level of resentment has been the same. In the year 2000 the State Department did surveys in places like Saudi Arabia. Almost two-thirds of Saudis expressed, quote, confidence in the U.S. Today that's in the single digits. We can't slump it together. It's obviously a function of events that have taken place, a function of policies. Certainly public diplomacy is only a small part of it. And I agree it's not a one-sided blame issue. But it is a fluid situation. It isn't they just hate us. That's not the reality out there.

JIM LEHRER: Fouad Ajami, Joe Biden, the senator, a Democrat from Delaware said today or yesterday he said, quote, this is... the prison thing is, quote, the single most damaging act to our interests in the region in the last decade, end quote. Is he right?

FOUAD AJAMI: Well, I think I have tremendous affection and respect for Joe Biden. He's a good man and a great senator and a great public figure. I'm not sure I would go this far. It's not our finest moment. It's a terrible moment for us. It has become a referendum on our war. It has given ammunition to our enemies. We will work our way out of it. We'll walk our way out of it with transparency, with the kind of statements that General Kimmitt made in Baghdad. He's ashamed for his army and for his forces and with the kinds of statements that our president has made and with the kind of effort that we're making to bring the perpetrators of these deeds to justice. I think we'll make our way out of it. For our enemies, we are guilty. No proof and no deed will acquit us. For our friends, they will understand that errors happen in war, terrible things happen. You have a vast force in Iraq -- 135,000 people -- under constant attack. These things can happen.

JIM LEHRER: We have to leave it there. Gentlemen, thank you both very much.

SHIBLEY TELHAMI: Pleasure.

FOUAD AJAMI: Thank you.

FOCUS - ELECTRONIC VOTING

JIM LEHRER: Now, electronic voting machines. They got a mixed review today at the first public hearing of the U.S. Election commission. At issue was the need for a paper trail to check their accuracy. Spencer Michels reports on the debate in California.

SPENCER MICHELS: As the November presidential election approaches, groups of protestors have sprung up in California and across the country to rally against new electronic touch- screen voting machines. The new devices were designed to eliminate the hanging chads on punch cards and the confusion that disenfranchised Florida voters in the 2000 presidential election. Last week in Sacramento, California Secretary of State Kevin Shelly, who had already banned the use of punch cards, banned 14,000 of the new machines in four counties. He also decertified all touch- screen systems used in ten additional counties until steps are taken to upgrade their security for the November presidential election.

KEVIN SHELLY: We are acting boldly and responsibly to improve and secure these systems in time for November.

SPENCER MICHELS: Shelly's announcement means several California counties will have to scramble to get ready for the November election. And it adds to the nationwide political and scientific controversy over electronic voting. More than 50 million Americans had been expected to vote this year on Direct Recording Electronic voting machines, or DRE's, as they're called. With this system, the voter touches a box on a computer screen next to the name of the candidate selected. The vote is recorded on the computer's memory. After the Florida debacle, Congress authorized $3.9 billion for new electronic machines and ordered the states using old technology to upgrade. But once they were in service, ten states, including California, reported problems. In the Super Tuesday March primary, several California counties-- including two of the state's largest, Alameda and San Diego -- experienced software failures, causing polling places to open late. And some voters were turned away when machines wouldn't work. Secretary of State Shelly appointed a voting systems panel to look into those problems. The panel delivered a scathing report and accused the state's largest supplier of DRE's, Diebold Election Systems, of jeopardizing the primary by using uncertified software and marketing a voting system before it was fully functional.

MARC CARREL: They've been doing a bait and switch on software that has resulted in the disenfranchisement of voters in various counties, and that has resulted in a reduction in the confidence not only of DRE's, but in voting, in general.

SPENCER MICHELS: Diebold's president, Robert Urosevich, defended his company.

ROBERT UROSEVICH: I want to be crystal clear that these allegations in this report about Diebold's deceiving are not true and are factually not supported.

SPENCER MICHELS: After reading the panel's report, Secretary Shelly asked the state's attorney general to look into possible civil and criminal charges against Diebold.

KEVIN SHELLY: We must send a clear and compelling message to the rest of the industry: Don't try to pull a fast one on the voters of California, because there will be consequences if you do.

SPENCER MICHELS: Mark Radke is Diebold's marketing director.

MARK RADKE: This is a new technology, and any time you change technology, you're going to have a number of people that don't like the change.

SPENCER MICHELS: But technology advocate Cindy Cohn says new technology is not an excuse for equipment failure.

CINDY COHN: I really protest the idea that every technology rolls out has glitches all the time. That's true for mass marketed consumer technology. When you and I started using ATM's, they didn't glitch - they didn't fail. The problem is they're trying to roll out prototype machines that haven't been fully tested that have been slapped together largely because there is this flood of federal money.

SPENCER MICHELS: Yolo County Clerk Freddie Oakley was worried from the start about the new touch screen machines and the decision by some local officials to buy them so fast.

FREDDIE OAKLEY: They have made appalling decisions about how to spend vast quantities of public money. They listen to the salespeople. They buy the products. Now their backs are against the wall. They're defending bad decisions.

SPENCER MICHELS: In Alameda County encoders that format the electronic ballot for each voter failed so even supporters of electronic voting, like elections official Elaine Ginnold admit to the rush to buy new machines after the 2000 election caused problems.

ELAINE GINNOLD: It was done much too quickly, much too quickly.

SPENCER MICHELS: The result of that.

ELAINE GINNOLD: The result of that is what we're seeing today. We're seeing machines being decertified, we're seeing encoders that are rushed into production without fully being tested and fully certified. We're seeing voter distrust.

SPENCER MICHELS: Despite all that, she says the electronic voting machines can be trusted to tabulate votes accurately.

ELAINE GINNOLD: For a month before the election, we're putting votes on them, test votes and test modes, and we are... we're printing out the reports from them and we see that they're absolutely accurate. They will even tell us if we've made a mistake.

SPENCER MICHELS: The debate has gone beyond politicians and election officials and has extended in to the computer science community.

MAN: And so, I believe that there are sound engineering solutions to the very real problems there are with DRE machines.

SPENCER MICHELS: Computer security experts gathered in Berkeley to debate touch-screen voting. Stanford's David Dill says computer programs, including voting machines, will always have bugs.

DAVID DILL: We've been trying to solve the problems of program bugs in computer science for 50 years. We haven't succeeded. Any program of any size has bugs.

SPENCER MICHELS: Dill says he worries about the security of voting machines, which he says are vulnerable to both unintentional flaws and deliberate tampering. A rogue programmer, for example, could fix a machine to record votes for the wrong candidate.

DAVID DILL: A voter can go to one of these things, enter a vote for Candidate "A." If a vote is stored in the electronic memory for Candidate "B," there's no way for the voter to know that. The situation that worries me the most, because it's easy and because it's undetectable, is if an insider, who has access to the software before it's installed on the machines, could put something malicious in it. That could be done in ways where you can't detect it by testing, but it's triggered during a real election, and you can't detect by inspecting the software.

SPENCER MICHELS: But Michael Shamos of Carnegie Mellon says that tampering is detectable.

MICHAEL SHAMOS: There are any number of checks to determine whether something has been altered by even by a single bit, a single one or zero has been changed in the machine, and we can tell. For years-- in fact, about six years-- I've had a challenge posted on the Internet that there's a $10,000 prize for anyone who can tamper undetectably with a DRE machine. No one has taken me up on this and no one will take me up on this because it's not possible to do it.

SPENCER MICHELS: Shamos, who is an elections consultant for two states, says people trust computers with their lives and money, and touch-screen voting machines can be trusted, too.

MICHAEL SHAMOS: If things don't come out the way they are predicted, everyone smells a rat. And if you smell a rat, you can impound the machine, and you can inspect it until the cows come home. And if there is some rogue programming in there, you're going to find it.

SPENCER MICHELS: Scientists like Dill say that perhaps the simplest and most essential solution to reassure voters is to keep a paper trail. At the computer conference in California, Dill arranged a mock election, where conferees recorded their votes on a machine which he had programmed to give a false result. The point was to show that without a voter verified paper trail, even experts couldn't detect vote tampering on touch-screen DRE's California's secretary of state has ordered that, by 2006, counties must attach a printer to touch-screen machines. That will provide a paper printout that a voter can inspect to verify that the machine recorded his vote correctly. Besides reassuring the voter, says David Dill, the paper ballots will allow for an audit.

DAVID DILL: If the results of the audit show there's a discrepancy between paper ballots and electronic records, the paper ballots have to win. And under those circumstances we can be pretty sure that votes we're counting are the votes that the voters intended to cast.

MICHAEL SHAMOS: What I object to is the requirement that there be voter verifiable paper trails. These paper ballot trail states want to make that paper, which is the most easily manipulatable record that we have, they want to make that the supreme one. And I think it's an error to do it.

SPENCER MICHELS: Despite Shamos' reservations, some voting machine companies are in the process of getting printers certified, and legislation is pending in the U.S. Senate that would require all voting systems in the nation to produce a paper receipt. Meanwhile, the banned California machines will be replaced by an optical scan system which uses a paper ballot that is counted by computer. Although blind people say they have trouble using optical scan machines, 55 million Americans will use them this year-- slightly more than will vote on the controversial electronic touch-screens.

FINALLY - THE DEW BREAKER

JIM LEHRER: Finally tonight, the author of a new novel about Haiti's past and Haitian- Americans present. Arts correspondent Jeffrey Brown conducted the conversation.

JEFFREY BROWN: So, what was it like when you first came here at age 12?

EDWIDGE DANTICAT: Well, it was a huge shock. Everything was so different, the language...

JEFFREY BROWN: In 1981, Edwidge Danticat came from Haiti to this neighborhood of immigrants in East Flatbush, New York.

EDWIDGE DANTICAT: It was as if I was taken from one planet, really, and put in another.

JEFFREY BROWN: Now you're writing about these people.

EDWIDGE DANTICAT: Well, because I know that experience, and it's as vivid today as it was then.

JEFFREY BROWN: It's from these streets that Danticat draws the characters in her new novel, "The Dew Breaker," the story of Haitian-Americans who bear emotional and physical scars from Haiti's violent past, the Duvalier dictatorship of the 1960s and '70s, when the infamous Tonton Macoute police terrorized the population. The name "Dew Breaker" comes because a character in the book says, "Often they'd come before dawn, as the dew was settling on the leaves, and they'd take you away." The novel's main character is a former dew breaker and torturer living in New York today, a quiet older man now, father, husband and barber, sharing the same neighborhood with some of the people he once victimized. "The Dew Breaker" is Edwidge Danticat's fourth book. Her first, "Breath, Eyes, Memory," published when she was just 25, quickly established her as a leading young writer. Now 35 and living in Miami, she recently met us at the home she grew up in in New York.

JEFFREY BROWN: Edwidge Danticat, welcome, and thank you and your parents for letting us come visit.

EDWIDGE DANTICAT: Thank you for coming.

JEFFREY BROWN: Early in your novel a terrible secret is revealed: A young woman who thought her father had been tortured long ago in Haiti discovers that in fact that he was the torturer. What made you want to write this story?

EDWIDGE DANTICAT: I wanted to explore all the ways that we don't always choose what comes with us in immigration. And then in our own experience, in the Haitian-American experience, we have many people who are now living in the United States who once worked during the dictatorship as torturers, and some were notorious, and people knew their names. And there were others whose names are not known. So that whole dynamic of escaping, or thinking you have escaped, only to find that down the street or at the market or at a party that you go to isthe person, or one of the many people you are escaping from.

JEFFREY BROWN: You use a series of linked stories to tell us about the characters around the central character. In fact, in some ways, we learn more about these people than we do about him. Why did you choose to write it this way?

EDWIDGE DANTICAT: Well, because for a long time this person was the ghost, you know, the center of these people's lives -- you know, the kind of machete, the killer of their memories. It took over their path. So I wanted to give them a say in this story. And it is through them, it is through these different people who have had terrible encounters with the central character, the Dew Breaker, and it's through their eyes that I wanted him to be revealed.

JEFFREY BROWN: Clearly, one of the running themes here is memory, and how we have to live with it, how we cannot escape it, particularly for people coming from one country to another.

EDWIDGE DANTICAT: Well, because memory is the only thing that we're able to take with us. A lot of us, when we have to flee and sometimes we don't even have time to pack a couple of suitcases, we have to leave immediately, as a lot of people had to during the Duvalier dictatorship. And so, what do we take with us? We try to take our... a few of the pictures, some, you know, swaths of clothing or other things that we might have. But most of it, what we take with us, the wealth of it is in our minds; it's in our memories.

JEFFREY BROWN: Even if it's terrifying.

EDWIDGE DANTICAT: Especially if it's terrifying. I think when it's terrifying we try to work with it, we try to rewrite it, or we try to forget it. But it comes with us regardless.

JEFFREY BROWN: One of your characters learns, as you write, "of men and women whose tremendous agonies filled every blank space in their lives." These are "men and women chasing fragments of themselves, long lost to others." Do you think there are people like that walking the very streets of this neighborhood we're sitting in?

EDWIDGE DANTICAT: I would say this neighborhood and many, many other immigrant neighborhoods where, really, the ghosts of the past just follow people around, whether in actual faces or people they see, or in their memories, there are things that haunt them about the past.

JEFFREY BROWN: You know, even as we sit here now talking about your book, which goes back, looks back 30 years, Haiti is, of course, in another period of turmoil.

EDWIDGE DANTICAT: It saddens me that there... that so many people have to suffer so continuously in that. This cycle, you know, this almost repetitive cycle of suffering just keeps going on, especially this year, you know, the year of the bicentennial, 200 years of independence. And it just... as a person, as a Haitian, as a writer, it just causes so much reflection, but also in the deepest places in your heart, so much sadness.

JEFFREY BROWN: Well, you've had remarkable success for someone still fairly young.

EDWIDGE DANTICAT: Relatively. ( Laughs )

JEFFREY BROWN: Yet you grew up in poor, modest circumstances in Haiti. You didn't speak English when you came here at 12. What compelled you, and what compels you now, to write?

EDWIDGE DANTICAT: I didn't know when I was very young that I could be a writer. But I always admired writers. And in our tradition, you know, especially at the time that I was growing up, a lot of our writers were, you know, were persecuted. But we have an extraordinary number of writers, given our literacy rate. So I was always inspired by that. But it's one of the great passions of my life. And I feel blessed, you know, I feel very privileged that I'm able to write and tell these stories that live so deep in me.

JEFFREY BROWN: Well, Edwidge Danticat, thank you very much.

EDWIDGE DANTICAT: Thank you for coming.

RECAP

JIM LEHRER: Once again, the major developments of the day: President Bush promised the Arab world that justice will be done in the prisoner abuse scandal in Iraq. The number of prisoner deaths under investigation in Iraq and Afghanistan grew to 14 today. And four more U.S. soldiers were killed in Iraq. We'll see you online, and again here tomorrow evening. I'm Jim Lehrer. Thank you and good night.