The Robert MacNeil Report

it's been are you i'm john wurdeman on the new york again denied well robin was way back in washington today the house rules committee approved full subpoena powers for an ethics committee investigation of that famously kill the pike committee intelligence report otherwise known as

the daniel schorr a fair if the forecast now go along with that request a full fledged investigation could get underway an action which could include this of the name of short himself sure you know is the cbs reporter who made a copy of the pike report available for publication in the village voice a weekly newspaper published tyranny our house had voted to keep that report secret and the whole business is touched off a real furor sure his job at cbs may be in jeopardy the fbi was already trying to find out who gave the report short answer not a house committee may be going out with a sign saying it is possible that the house that you know shorn contempt of congress interviews congressional press pass it'll probably be weeks though before all of that is very small in the meantime shores action and his troubles of set off on friday debate over limit government and the journalism business and tonight we would consider some of the central questions that have emerged from this show our affair first

on the journalism side neil sheehan is with us in washington is a former correspondent in the washington bureau of the new york times is the man who secured and then reported on the pentagon papers in nineteen seventy one ms ba there was there was seemed to be coming down on both sides of this issue on the ethical question what are the basic ethical questions involved in what daniel schorr but basically the church has done in terms of giving out prior to publication is in consonance with normal journalistic ethics there's nothing wrong with giving something to develop with the public mr shrum i have violated the corporate movers cbs in that case he had trouble with his own employer in this unit journalist are not do not agree with that but that is the basic journalism position what dan schorr did was write i mean there is a debate going on within newsrooms all over the

country you would concede that with i would say there is the day that i would go also say that people who say the insurer didn't have a right to get that report in the village voice and both boys didn't have wright i'll but you really don't know what they're talking about in terms of what they do themselves new york times for example publishes for news at least fifty percent of which is classified as secret by the standards of the executive branch is no difference between congress party not publish something and the executive branch classify first amendment doesn't give congress and it might keep something out of public aren't any more than it does the executive branch from an individual working press them on ashamed of the question that's been raised that sure was not auctioning as a professional journalist in the village voice transaction he was functioning as a trafficker in state secrets that process in this country and so to all the

television networks and the radio networks if you label a state secret something thats classified the fact is that the basic information in that report had been published in the new york times and on the twentieth long before it appeared in the village voice and the fact that congress voted to keep it secret doesn't mean that anyone has to keep it secret welcome on a vote doesn't doesn't carry any more weight than the classification by the executive branch it is a show of not trying to make money in the matter he was he was seeking glory these egocentric and he's abrasive and he's unpopular within the community of journalists which is one of the reasons why he's in trouble and you don't think there's a serious question on the other side i don't really think there is now i don't think that sure was trafficking in state secrets any more than anyone else parts of it felt morgan is an attorney with the american civil liberties

union is in an undocumented first amendment cases on the side of the press but martin is this a first amendment case sure are quintessentially freedom of the press issue you were talking a moment ago some folks within the news organizations that begging the question that debate uses primarily between those who write editorials knows report was write editorials talk about leaks pose report talk about informed sources after this be a first amendment case one there's been no talk of all taking the village voice to task for publishing a no no talk of taking cbs to task for carrying the report that sure made based on the report i mean there's been no question here of freedom of the press the information was outside of my congress shall make no laws what the first amendment center if there's ever been a case where congress is trying to make some law this is it they've already voted to investigate your parents today they're attempting to vote the subpoena power tomorrow three hundred thousand dollars who knows what those walls congress shall make no law respecting for the

printing presses part of that would be a defining your longings the law and that it is an unfortunate turban in the first amendment rather loosely that the first amendment that's what we call a strict construction district has had no law means no that a journalist can literally do anything in terms of getting a getting information now you can publish your dan schorr did publish in terms of cbs and that's not what they're what they're upset with whatever sharp perhaps he did offer to cbs precedent not all the details about the living dead and many are that someone else made public today at the hands free two of the public you know we're talking about a very good boring report to begin with there's no information and of much it resulted from a cover up investigation in a cover up congress so what we're really talking about is kind of a fictional issue posed by gerald ford the cia to go on the offensive after all of the ap reports of assassinations and shellfish toxin that cobra venom and whatever else they do for a living out there i was you know that a lot of dogs

are welcome back to that i was in the government of course is also for over the school's your affair cerny artist that sam adams and he was an analyst on official at the central intelligence agency for ten years astronomers the administration and some members of congress and others have charged that the pike committee report represents of the released the publication of the pie committee report represents a threat to our national security law from the point of view of a government official who was in law all that went on on keeping government secrets secret what's at stake in this short hair let me not use the shore report that does pose a general question those of government us government in this case have the right to keep secrets during peace time and again not using the shore report let me i give another example a much clearer want you on my classmates are actually know they don't know how much clear why at one time the cia was bugging me of phone in linda's in the

limousine belonging to break next this fact was leaked to the press jack anderson and it seems to me one question this brings to my mind what the government passed a law to prevent a leak like this now as to the shore case it seems to be on what he's saying the senate should pass a lot of urban elite like that i have to think that a law should be passed to prevent a leak like that knock the nail off jack anderson you have to be the recipient of that of that idea when i will launch later on the program talk about some specific proposals early idol not on the back of your kid art back to the shortage that seems to me that shore has made violated no statute that i've ever heard of by accepting of material from a government official who looked filthy one of the week and i can't assure on that account and wood i let's go to for an

additional point is now back to washington to mitchell writ golden mr govan is a washington attorney and the special counsel to the director of central intelligence is a former assistant attorney general of the united states and chief counsel to the internal revenue service with regarding iraq lots of us on this one ej what mr schorr said he says the real issue in this case is whether congress can forbid the publication of information that has already escaped its control what you think you think that's the central issue if not what you think it is i think always been blown out of proportion the issue that i see is the press biting up behind daniel schorr the central question you're pointed out was that this material was published the twentieth of january first that's right great detail reported as to what

the strap of the house select committee report had to say and subsequently then joy has a radio broadcast on television reported other materials so we're interested in secrecy and if the government was going to come down like the over that morgan seems to believe it is and that was the time to move no action took place a house then voted i'm a very strange especially as euros whether that committee's report would be made public or not that was a simple question of a committee having made a president and say it's not keeping it and obama's two to one margin the house voted that they should not publish a report on cell and chosen portmanteau issues of five patients work out and shoring at popular that that are even going around the issue really yet there's an issue is who gave the report

to rap at your clams and adventure or possibly other papers and then the only legitimate question that i can say former committee staff what member of the committee or what member of the executive branch or maybe a mature well i think that the house committee on executive branch has a right to expect that melody from its employees and if you voluntarily undertake her job as a requirement of secrecy i think the employer has every right to try to seek some redress when that's why weren't sure simply has become a focal point i think primarily by the press i mean new hampshire is a very aggressive reporter and of reasons best known to his own network

and out to the rest of the press they seemed to focus on now the easy way to run investigations vast dan schorr okay that you were going to have a result that he will refuse to get the content situation i think the last thing it would do the best ensure the first thing you do with the death of members of the committee the members of the committee staff that people in executive branch who had access to the report and see if you can find out what happened to that forte from our approach you think that would be such a flap over this matter if it did not involve congress and that was say in executive branch reported some fun well the answer is thirty three now because it had been out since the twentieth of january just in general terms the fact that congress is is tension at this time there are reports of the race more about it than what they would have obviously that in the state secret well it lets the

mossad now as you started ago started a minute ago mr adams to live on the specifics of the shortage to some of the major issues that had been raised maybe incorrectly in the context of all the shortest but let's examine some of the first one is the one that this is the one that you raise a moment ago mr adams who should just saw what the public has a right to know the government or the individual house mr sheehan oh i would say that the motions of that in the system for nearly two hundred years and it worked very well i think the government liane i wouldn't have time to keep a secret and i think the press ought to have write as well as any other citizen and publish whatever she puts it thinks the public option now now this sets up a system of conflict which sometimes leads to abuse and the instance mr adam said it may very well be a good case of abuse i really don't know on a kid but there have been instances where the turtle has been abused however

basically i think the country benefits from this is what it's benefited from an even prior to the revolution when benjamin franklin like some documents showing that the governor of massachusetts intended to suppress the liberties which he was praised by those in favor of independence from england in the pack by the royals i think if the system works very well as a bit like the system of them are in the system much better than what they have been proposed i think that the government has no right to secrets in peacetime i would not say that i think the government will keep secrets no matter what william pesce just as government officials why the line becomes a major or civil liberties in constitutional questions in the democracies such as our liking them are shaken jaws we have a right to educate people on duty to the people vote on the government without getting secrets covert activities require cover stories cover stories we did cover ups cover stories is another wave same lines we happen to think and i think you're on a national security the truth and the present system that we have was reported on

friday get it but far too many people in government cover up and the rule of the government is to cover for government in their ability to keep agreements do you know that for the president to say i like the secrets and you can have a secret if you keep the secret and then for the president to tell the people that agree with what about his illegal conduct and then for that person who got that was not a warrior that this was not a priest or a doctor to keep that seat seems to me like it's a classic definition of our own lawyer thomas was that obligation until insurgents <unk> palmer i think it's a simple matter i think that in history starts off take take any of the large corporations that have her trademarks that are trade secrets or chemical formulas or they're using

they place a responsibility on the employee employer doesn't want to work under those conditions and sixty one and elsewhere that it is impossible for my point you see how a country can maintain its secrets without having some control over the employees employees should not have to test their standards today in day out by the request of reporters for a bit of information coming to comic drama the secret you know make an eight if a man doesn't want a weapon of those conditions on their arduous conditions no question about whether he should seek employment elsewhere but i don't see this as a first amendment i think the first amendment issue comes into play if the yeah the question becomes the yeah the victim if they become a year potential to find that the circumstances that's not what the issues of the iraq issue is whether the government has the right to have a very limited the statute

requiring that sources and methods of the very very simple and can select crying about about information the basic fight that raises right into a discussion of all the legislation that's now been proposed because there's already been a lot of talk of that kind of a backlash from the shortage could result in a tough anti leaking laws some sort in fact president ford has recently proposed legislation that would make it a serious crime for government employees to leak some kinds of classified information to the press of mr govan has just been commenting on or in fact under the president's proposal leaving the congress and i was a report of the information could conceivably be asked to reveal their sources the grand jury is investigating the leak surveillance and that's ok mr golden i take it that you feel that some kind of law like this is it is it is called tor yeah i think it's a a desirable means of maintaining the importance of secrets in it

that the proposition that there really are secrets and what we're talking about is the type of thing that the fourth circuit bound to be an appropriate agreement between employee employer contract fourth circuit said it had nothing to do with the first amendment simply a question of an agreement that someone went entered into the time of the one and when he decided to write a book about the inner secrets of the cia the court enjoined certain portions of that book as being in violation of the richmond i contracted hiv mr carrier market mr lustgarten it you feel that you know if the government has a right to keep secrets we disagree on that of course i don't think the government has tried to steal cigarettes along in peacetime of course not they were created one whole sort of you keeping secrets from that regime and secondly we're also made up the example mr adams is unknown as well there you don't want that to britain as automobile could you don't have like actors in russia when you get rid of a lot better than rush you don't have to

worry about that sort of thing spies spies legalize the government of the united states lies to the citizens of the united states alone places mr palmer about what happened here an example which is played on resources than others but the republicans talk about what the methods to get the sources of bribery blackmail extortion nine hundred thousand eight hundred thousand dollars paid to the chief of the aipac in police or whoever it was well that just means that eight million dollars paid to a japanese war criminals by walking or another million dollars paid to a former ss eighteen over on that that be the case that one or that corrupts the society and i take it and it is a fair assumption that given up and there should be a law to prosecute people who leak government back in i don't even believe that there is such a thing as a legal government and i believe those thoughts and a lot of the people in peace time and the cost of them it just costs too much

restraint were you calm i think i probably come on their affairs squarely on the side of mr armor going on on such a thing and since japan was mentioned by mr morgan i might use another example of a secret i think is worth keeping before i mention the fact that the cia a one time was tapping of greatness limousines home before our world war to the united states government broke some japanese co op eventually the breaking of these codes he was a great deal of information with the loudest during world war two a win win win later warfare broke out he was a great deal of information i thought i think it was very important where winning the war even though it was initially obtained during peacetime i know i think that there's a kind of secret the breaking of a japanese quote the binding of greatness limousine is worth keeping one

of the most regal wins position that there should the us that the law should be like part of an essentially an employment contract that you as an employee of the cia when you go to work for the cia you sign a contract which he says i will never revealing information et cetera classified information and that if you do either why yearn for your act you live in one of the cia you could be prosecuted criminal statute which is essentially what the oil rig with inventor of the farm i think at the waffle on that particular item on the to start off well i have to be writing a book on the intelligence material on and it did calm incidentally in writing an article for example for harper's i did submit it to the cia as i was required to buy a contract which i find

really a lot of work as a lot of the cia now all i have no i have no objection to signing the contract had no objection to submitting the article to the cia in fact a cia asset on thing without a word being changed however i would have to be very careful and seeing how the law has crafted later on wet weather and whether chris how stiff the cr and in a lot of penalty would be no answer you were i saw you shaking your head of center that things that were said in speaking tonight at ok well acquire iran the statute has proposed is limited to criminal sanctions are limited to a revealing of services are for meth it's information not any all classified information ever came to do the hands of a year employee and sources or methods or are a seasoned a limited strain and

the statute as a year a very tight control over our prosecutions may be brought and i think that once the surgery has proposed for ms made public the debate can focus on that and their discussions and joining joining issue on that no homework and not the whole question of prosecuting someone i worked for the government lawyer reveals a classified bit of information mr shea and having it you feel it and the press except at a new sequence wall that win for both of the broken ones i don't think the us can it i would disagree with mr adams and going on this it as i understand the legislation the president for any government employee or any employee of a government contractor who had received information which was allegedly relating to intelligence sources and information could if he or she disclose that information to

any unauthorized person be punished by five years in jail five thousand dollars fine about now i have a suspicion from my own experience with the nixon administration that were such a law passed first the role of the prosecutors would have a statue to which they could say language mainly in information relating to intelligence sources and methods is really so broad so right it could be right there i'm not on almost anything in terms of material like the pentagon papers watergate material work on the truth of the media the front pages of papers because they're concerned veterans and some sources that is you can reclaim the publication of material discovers the source or disclose them laugh what i think with that kind of old but our reporters would find themselves subpoenaed to grand juries or are they would find themselves eyewitnesses in proceedings and we would have an effect on official

secrets act in this country i don't see any reason to change the current system i think the government should have the right now has the discipline its own employees by firing on demolishing them were failing to promote them we live in a pluralistic society with a great deal of tension and the ironic thing of the shark controversy for example that illustrates this is that man of mr specter's political persuasions that was having that subcommittee in my day when i was covering the pentagon for the times and sixties not the suspect himself that his political persuasion with the best the lakers i have i discovered that the seven conservatives were the guys who would go into a classified document the original with a red sedan still aren't saying sic well i think that this kind of of of law would leave that would be invasive would destroy the first amendment as the strains you won now the rhetorical that the specific question is

it and they'll invite leaks the fact that were bugging gration us all the fire but no further ninety five percent of the intelligence that we have is that the cia says comes from satellites submarines and public sources what we've done is we've developed a ten billion dollar secret clandestine budget in this country we've even infiltrated the press reports one good newspaper reporter mr sheehan and russia moved fishell says even southern conservatives of which you thought was a report on the people of the united states and quite frankly i don't know if it is to do more you don't win here and we're our revenues it has attended a public television conference on public affairs programming in california and he will not be back until thursday so i'll be i'll be seeing you again tomorrow night and jan morrow thank you and not ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

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