The NewsHour with Jim Lehrer

JIM LEHRER: Good evening, I'm Jim Lehrer. On the NewsHour tonight, the news of this day, then: An update plus analysis of the bombings in Egypt; opposing views of the splits within the AFL-CIO; a science unit report on chasing tornadoes; and a look at the triumphs of cycling champion Lance Armstrong.

NEWS SUMMARY

JIM LEHRER: Police in Egypt hunted five Pakistani men today, in the deadly bombings at Sharm el-Sheikh. Three explosions early Saturday killed at least 64 people, including one American. News accounts said the Pakistanis arrived at the Red Sea resort on July 5. Their potential involvement could mean an al-Qaida connection. But today, Pakistani President Musharraf insisted al-Qaida's leaders are cut off in remote mountains. He said: "In this situation is it possible al-Qaida or anyone else can direct attacks from here? This is totally wrong." We'll have more on this story right after the News Summary. London police made two more arrests today in last week's failed bombings there. A total of five are now in custody. Police also identified two of the four men who allegedly tried to set off the bombs. All of them are still at large. We have a report from Dan Rivers of Independent Television News.

DAN RIVERS: Tonight Britain's four most wanted men are still on the run but it appears the police may be closing in with new information and new photos. This is the man who attempted to blow up a bus in Hackney. Today named as Muktar Said Ibrahim, he's 27, also known as Muktar Mohammed Said. And this is the would-be Oval bomber unnamed but this new photo shows him on the tube carrying a rucksack laden with explosives just seconds before he tried to detonate it. And this is the would-be Warren Street bomber today named as 24-year-old Yasim Hasan Omar. The hunt for the men has now moved to this block of flats in North London anti-terrorist detectives searching a flat associated with Luktar Fai Ibrahim, evacuating terrified residents. So what do we know about the movements of these men? The first suspect got on to a northern line northbound train at Stockwell and set off his bomb on his way to Oval Station. The second man believed to be Muktar Said Ibrahim was also seen walking into Stockwell tube. Police know at 12:53 he got on a Number 26bus in the bank area of the city. The third suspect entered, Yasim Hasan Omar, entered Stockwell underground station with a small rucksack. He attempted to set off his bomb on a northbound Victoria line strain between Oxford Circus and Warren Street stations. The fourth suspect entered a different underground station, West Bourne Park, just after 12:20. He boarded a train towards Shepherd's Bush and tried to set off his bomb shortly after. The fifth bomb was found in a park at the weekend, containing the same explosives, raising the possibility of a fifth bomber. What may yield vital clues is this style of food containers. The police say it was used in all five bombs. It's made in India and is sold in about 100 shops here in the UK. The police are particularly keen to hear from any retailers who may have sold five or more recently. As Londoners endure a tense atmosphere, searched and watch as they wait for the terrorists next move, they now know what a suicide bomber looks like as he prepares to detonate.

JIM LEHRER: British Prime Minister Blair apologized today for the killing of a Brazilian man on Friday. Plainclothes police shot the man eight times after he ran onto a subway train. They said they thought he was a suicide bomber because he wore a padded jacket and refused to stop. Blair said today it was all a tragic mistake.

TONY BLAIR: We are all desperately sorry for the death of an innocent person. And I understand entirely the feelings of the young man's family. But we also have to understand the police are doing their job in very, very difficult circumstances.

JIM LEHRER: Blair said if the man had been a bomber, and the police failed to stop him, they'd have been criticized for that. An investigation into the shooting is now under way. But the slain man's family threatened today to take legal action. In Iraq today, a pair of suicide bombings killed at least 14 people in Baghdad. In the worst attack, a minibus packed with explosives blew up outside a hotel. Most of the victims were private Iraqi security guards. The violence came a day after a truck bomb killed 39 people at a Baghdad police station. Also today, Sunni Muslims announced they'll rejoin a committee drafting Iraq's constitution. They staged a six-day boycott after two Sunni officials were assassinated. An Indiana National Guardsman pleaded guilty today to killing an Iraqi police officer in 2003. Corporal Dustin Berg entered a plea to negligent homicide, at Fort Knox, Kentucky. Berg initially claimed the Iraqi pointed a weapon at him. Today, he said he misread the situation. He also admitted shooting himself in the stomach to make it look like self-defense.

A U.S. soldier was killed in a gun battle in Afghanistan today. Militants ambushed a U.S. patrol in the South. The U.S. Military said an Afghan soldier also died, along with 11 rebels. Another American was killed and six were wounded in separate attacks yesterday. An Italian court today issued six new arrest warrants for CIA operatives. The Associated Press reported they're accused in the kidnapping of a radical Egyptian cleric in 2003. He was allegedly taken from Milan to Egypt, where he claimed he was tortured. Last month, an Italian judge issued warrants for 13 other purported CIA agents. A political storm in the Philippines reached new intensity today. Opposition lawmakers moved to impeach President Arroyo. They accused her of rigging last year's election. Arroyo has denied the charge, but thousands took to the streets again today, demanding her resignation. Later, she urged constitutional changes to let lawmakers vote out unpopular governments.

PRESIDENT GLORIA MACAPAGAL ARROYO: I recognize that our form of government will be the decision of the body constituted to undertake charter change but we should consider that legislation would be quickened and laws made more responsive to the people under a parliamentary system.

JIM LEHRER: Arroyo supporters control the Philippines house and could block any impeachment resolution. But opponents warned if that happens, they'll mount another "people power" revolution. A similar revolt forced out Arroyo's predecessor, President Joseph Estrada, in 2001. Back in this country, two top labor unions broke away from the AFL-CIO today. The Teamsters and the Service Employees International Union said they want greater efforts to build membership. Two other unions representing food, textile, and hotel workers boycotted the AFL-CIO convention opening in Chicago. The dissident unions represent one third of the AFL-CIO's 13 million members. And we'll have more on this story later in the program tonight. The countdown went ahead today for tomorrow's space shuttle launch despite a lingering fuel gauge problem. A faulty reading scrubbed Discovery's initial launch attempt this month. Engineers still do not fully understand what caused it. Even so, NASA's test director said officials might waive safety rules if the issue crops up tomorrow.

PETE NICKOLENKO: We've done an extensive degree of troubleshooting and analysis, as I think I stated and others in our management have stated over the past couple of weeks to really as best we can understand what we've got, I believe that we're ready. And I feel very confident going into the conduct of the terminal launch countdown that the entire team is ready to execute this mission.

JIM LEHRER: The launch rules say all four fuel sensors must be working properly, even though only two are actually needed. Discovery's mission will be the first for the shuttle program since the loss of Columbia in 2003. On Wall Street today, the Dow Jones Industrial Average lost more than 54 points to close at 10,596. The NASDAQ fell 13 points to close at 2,166. And that's it for the News Summary tonight. Now it's on to terrorism in Egypt, the AFLI-CIO divides, tornado studies and Lance Armstrong triumphs.

FOCUS - TARGET: EGYPT

JIM LEHRER: The Egypt bombings, Kwame Holman begins with some background.

KWAME HOLMAN: As investigators in Sharm el-Sheikh, Egypt continued to search for clues in Saturday's blasts, officials today said one thing they did know was that at least one attack was the work of a suicide bomber.

MOUSTAFA AFIFI, Governor, Sharm el-Sheikh (Translated): The first bombing we are sure it was a suicide attack because we found a body in the car. This is at the Ghazala Gardens Hotel. The second one we're not sure. The third one, an investigation is underway; it could be a suicide bombing, we're not sure yet. About the Ghazala attack, the car went into the reception area and exploded.

KWAME HOLMAN: The bombs were detonated in succession, beginning just after 1:00 A.M. Saturday: First, at a busy shopping arcade, where the blast left a crater ten feet wide and three feet deep; then at the luxury Ghazala Gardens Hotel. And authorities said it appeared the third explosive device which went off in a parking lot near another hotel was carried in a suitcase. More than 60 people were killed, most of them Egyptians. Some were some foreign tourists.

MOHAMMED KARIM, Chef (Translated): Whoever would do something like this cannot be a Muslim. Islam has nothing to do with suchan act because the Egyptians people who died were Muslims and the visitors who came are good people who provide us with our livelihood.

KWAME HOLMAN: All of the blast sites are on the southern tip of the Sinai Peninsula, a resort area on the Red Sea Coast that draws tens of thousands of international tourists every year. Sharm el-Sheikh, known as the "City of Peace," also has been a gathering place for international summits, including successful cease-fire talks last fall by Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas. But even as Egypt plays host and participant in regional diplomacy, its government long has had internal struggles with Islamic militants, and the country has been a source of terrorists. The number-two man in all-Qaida, Ayman al Zawahri is an Egyptian, as was the lead hijacker in the 9/11 attacks, Mohammed Atta. And in 1997, a series of attacks by Islamic militants on foreign visitors in Egypt left more than 60 dead, and temporarily crippled the country's $6- billion-a-year tourism industry. Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak responded to those attacks by cracking down on Islamists. Thousands were arrested. Many remain imprisoned today. Last October, terrorists struck again in a series of coordinated suicide attacks on the resort of Taba, along the Israeli border; 34 people were killed.

Investigators said the Taba attacks may be linked to the Sharm el-Sheikh blasts Saturday. Two groups claimed responsibility. The Abdullah Azzam Brigades of all-Qaida in Syria and Egypt gave its assertion on an Internet site; it's the same group that said it carried out the Taba bombings. The other group, which calls itself the Mujahideen of Egypt, faxed its claim to newspapers. Egyptian police have detained dozens of people but so far made no formal arrests. The latest attacks came as Egyptians prepare for their first multi-candidate presidential elections since Mubarak took office in 1981, following the assassination of Anwar Sadat, an act also attributed to Islamic militants.

JIM LEHRER: More now from Michael Scheuer, the former head of the CIA's bin Laden unit. And Samer Shehata, an assistant professor of Middle East politics at Georgetown University. He was born in Egypt and is both a U.S. and Egyptian citizen.

Professor Shehata, what do you believe about who might be behind these Sharm el-Sheikh bombings?

SAMER SHEHATA: Well, of course, we don't have all the facts but it appears to be the work of international terrorism, probably an al-Qaida-related organization, clearly with some Egyptian participation, whether or not there were Pakistanis involved is another matter. And the targets were the Egyptian state, the Egyptian economy as well as the foreign tourists who would likely been there in Sharm el-Sheikh.

JIM LEHRER: Do you see the same signs of an international thing, Mr. Scheuer?

MICHAEL SCHEUER: I think, Mr. Lehrer, yes. It has all the hallmarks of al-Qaida. The three major hallmarks of their attacks are to cause significant human casualties, to strike a blow against economies, and the third is always to have a symbolic target. The Sharm el-Sheikh has been a betenoire for Osama bin Laden since March of 1996 when the first big Arab-Israeli summit occurred there. He's always identified it as a convention of quislings or traders among the Arab world, that a few Israeli died and the world cried crocodile tears but a thousand Iraqi children were dying a day because of U.N. sanctions. So in bin Laden's mind Sharm el-Sheikh is a very important symbolic target.

JIM LEHRER: Now, you heard what I reported in the News Summary a while ago, that the president of Pakistan said, wait a minute, there's no way in the world the leaders of al-Qaida could have been behind this or even London for that matter because they're in some remote area in the boonies outside somewhere in Pakistan. Do you buy that?

SAMER SHEHATA: Not really. I mean I think that represents a misunderstanding of what al-Qaida is these days. Al-Qaida is likely not an organization with card-carrying members with a central office in Wiziristan Province some place with Osama bin Laden calling all of the shots. It's more like a network of terrorist organizations or as some say a franchise outfit. So it's likely that the people who did this have some relationship to al-Qaida, share some of their philosophies and outlook and goals, maybe have even received some training in Afghanistan or elsewhere. But it's unlikely that this was a decision that Osama bin Laden or Ayam Zawahri made in a cave some place in Pakistan.

JIM LEHRER: It was made on the ground by some people in Egypt.

SAMER SHEHATA: Possibly. Very likely in Egypt or someplace else and then executed in Egypt with the help of Egyptians.

JIM LEHRER: What would you add to that?

MICHAEL SCHEUER: I'm a little sanguine that al-Qaida is as broken as President Musharraf has said. It seems to me that in the age of encrypted Internet communications and satellite telephones and the like, communication is not that difficult from wherever you are on this earth. And simply because both the London attacks and the Egyptian attacks so strongly fit into the mold of al-Qaida's operations, I'm tempted to say that there may well have been an al-Qaida headquarters involvement in these attacks.

JIM LEHRER: They said to do them back to back at these particular times?

MICHAEL SCHEUER: The timing, of course, we know from the 9/11 attacks and other attacks that the timing is entirely up to the man on the ground. Like the good CEO he is, bin Laden delegates the authority for timing to the man who is responsible for the attack.

JIM LEHRER: Now, Professor Shehata, what about the terrorist elements in Egypt itself. Who would... what kind of fertile territory is there today for anybody who is alive with Osama bin Laden or any franchise of al-Qaida?

SAMER SHEHATA: Well, this is a bit mysterious because many of us had thought-- and I think still believe-- that the Egyptian government was incredibly successful in their crackdown in the 1990s using very harsh methods in wiping out the domestic sources of terrorism or the domestic terrorist groups I should say. And in fact one of the groups disbanded and another one, the members recanted. This was after, of course, many years of military trials, some executions, and some heavy-handed techniques on the part of the government. So, it's quite alarming for many of us who follow this, and it's also likely or I believe that it's not a completely domestic problem.

JIM LEHRER: You don't think that it could have been mounted by the Egyptian elements themselves by themselves? That's what you're saying?

SAMER SHEHATA: That's exactly what I'm saying. I think Egyptians probably pulled off some of this but I think that they got some help and maybe some directions and orders and training and explosives from elsewhere.

JIM LEHRER: Do you agree with that, that the Egyptians... do you believe as Professor Shehata did that the Egyptians have been pretty effective in knocking out the terrorist elements before this?

MICHAEL SCHEUER: Well, they've been very effective in amassing a body count and a population in prison is very effective. But there's no way that the young men in Egyptian society are any more immune to the call of al-Qaidaism, if you will, than are the young men of Pakistan or Saudi Arabia or Jordan. So the idea... this is a problem that you can't eliminate. And as long as the main goal for this, the main motivation which, of course is U.S. foreign policy in the Islamic world, as long as that exists, it's never going to be fully under control.

JIM LEHRER: What do you make of the Pakistani connection? It's been alleged here that these folks came from Pakistan. Of course, the same allegation applies to the first London bombings as well.

MICHAEL SCHEUER: It's a disturbing trend from my perspective. I worked on Pakistan and Afghanistan for most of my career. And suicidal attacks in those countries are rare. And if we're now going to see Afghans or especially Pakistanis conducting suicide attacks, that opens up a whole new population of would-be attackers that we had not previously had to worry about.

JIM LEHRER: What do you make of that?

SAMER SHEHATA: I agree. I think also logistically it would have been very difficult for a group of foreigners, Pakistanis or Albanians or from whatever country to get their hands on a number of Egyptian vehicles, get the explosives in the country and pull this off without the help of Egyptians. Almost impossible, I think.

JIM LEHRER: Well, where would the Egyptians... where would they have gotten the training in explosives and how to use explosives, how to get the cars, all the things you're just saying; where does that come from? How does that happen?

SAMER SHEHATA: Well, you know this better than I do. I think Iraq and Afghanistan.

MICHAEL SCHEUER: Afghanistan, Iraq, Chechnya, as you mentioned. There is no lack of training fields, Mr. Lehrer for these people at this moment. The world is awash with areas where they can be trained.

JIM LEHRER: Is it overstating the case, if you all are right, that these things are loosely connected to an international movement, that there's more to come?

MICHAEL SCHEUER: Oh, sure. We're not being well served-- Mr. Blair, Mr. Bush don't serve their electorate well by the Pavlovian response of they hate our freedoms and they hate our liberties and they hate gender equality and all of that stuff. They downplay these people as simply haters. And in many ways these people are lovers in the sense that they love their religion and they love their society and they deem our foreign policy an attack on that. This is not going to end any time soon. Indeed as long as western and U.S. policies in the Middle East remain the same the growth potential for what I guess you could call al-Qaidaism is enormous.

JIM LEHRER: Do you have the same analysis?

SAMER SHEHATA: Pretty much the same analysis. There's a skewed understanding of Islam, of course. Nevertheless, U.S. foreign policy whether it be 150,000 American soldiers in Iraq or the U.S. Government's position on the Palestinian-Israeli conflict or our military footprints in the Persian Gulf, these are the policies that are the underlying root cause of this phenomenon.

JIM LEHRER: Debates about it aside, the rights and wrongs of U.S. policy aside, it's the way it's perceived by these young people in the Islamic world.

MICHAEL SCHEUER: Perception is reality, Mr. Lehrer.

JIM LEHRER: I noticed when Kwame Holman's report was airing before I introduced the two of you and the young man, the young Egyptian said, these could not have been Muslims who did this because these were Egyptians whoare also Muslims, et cetera. You agreed with him. And, yet, what other explanation is there?

SAMER SHEHATA: Well, I think what he's saying is that they were Muslims in name only. This has nothing to do with Islam, that this isn't what Islam is about and that even if they called themselves Muslims, they were the ones who were delusional. I think that's what he meant. I was agreeing with him.

JIM LEHRER: Yeah. But what's your analysis of that? You've been dealing with this problem for a long time. Just to pick up on what you said a moment ago, where does the religious part take over from the political aims of an Osama bin Laden, or are they so intertwined now you couldn't pull them apart?

MICHAEL SCHEUER: Again, on this one the professor is more knowledgeable than I am. Islam is nothing if not political. And the tie between religion and politics in Islam is extraordinarily close. I'm very... sometimes I'm not very comfortable with the eagerness of especially western politicians to say this is not real Islam. This is not... as if they knew. You know, most of them wouldn't know a call to prayer if they heard it every day for a year. The point I would make is that as in Christianity there are all kinds of strains of Islam. And there are some -- as I think the professor will tell you-- that are very marshal in their orientation.

JIM LEHRER: Would you tell us that?

SAMER SHEHATA: I think I would. And I would say that the vast majority, of course, which is an obvious point, of Muslims don't follow this kind of Islam, that they look at different passages in the Koran and understand Islam the way it has most often been understood: As a kind of peaceful religion, as a religion in which violence isn't supposed to be perpetrated unless it's in a defensive kind of a way and in which there is no such thing as a global Jihad against westerners because of western values or democracy or mini-skirts.

JIM LEHRER: But it may be a small minority but it's having a huge impact on the world.

SAMER SHEHATA: That's certainly correct. That's certainly correct.

MICHAEL SCHEUER: And the key, Mr. Lehrer, is the defensive option, the defensive idea. And that has been part of bin Laden's genius to portray what he's up to is not an offensive Jihad against American values or American women but against the offensive attack of the U.S. foreign policy in the Islamic world. He's very much a defensive-minded man.

JIM LEHRER: Okay. We have to leave it there. Thank you both very much.

FOCUS - LABOR SPLIT

JIM LEHRER: Still to come on the NewsHour tonight: Labor's big divide, studying tornadoes, and the triumphs of Lance Armstrong.

JIM LEHRER: Gwen Ifill has our labor story.

GWEN IFILL: Citing poor leadership and years of declining membership at the AFL-CIO, two of its larges member unions announced today they are splitting from the federation; all told, four unions representing one-third of the AFL-CIO's membership boycotted the federation's 50th anniversary convention this week in Chicago. Andrew Stern, president of the Service Employees International Union, spoke today about the thinking behind his decision.

ANDREW STERN: We had a terrific meeting this morning of the presidents of all the unions, the organizing directors of all the unions and talked about forming something fundamentally different than kind of the loose operation of the AFL-CIO where campaigns have no accountability, where money is given out for political purposes, but to really form a center for growth.

GWEN IFILL: Teamsters president James Hoffa Jr. said his organization voted unanimously to withdraw from a federation he said is in need of fresh direction.

JAMES HOFFA, JR.: There are other people that say let's not grow, let's stay the same, let's keep on having declining membership and let's keep doing what we've been doing for ten years. We say no. We say it's time for change.

GWEN IFILL: Two smaller unions, the United Food and Commercial Workers and Unite Here, are threatening to leave as well.

PROTESTOR: Workers would not be where they are today if the AFL-CIO had been doing its job right along.

GWEN IFILL: The AFL-CIO has 13 million members who contributed $96 million in and annual dues last year, but dissenting members have said union money should be directed toward rebuilding the membership base which has slid from one-third of American workers 50 years ago to under 13 percent today. AFL-CIO President John Sweeney ignored calls to step aside today and said the defections are a grievous insult to workers and their unions.

JOHN SWEENEY: It is a tragedy for working people because at a time when our corporate and conservative adversaries have created the most powerful anti-worker political machine in the history of our country, a divided movement hurts the hopes of working families for a better life. And that makes me very angry.

GWEN IFILL: Today's developments represent the biggest rift in organized labor since 1938. That's when the CIO split from the AFL. They reunited several years later. Many union leaders and Democratic Party activists fear today's split could divide the labor movement and weaken it politically.

GWEN IFILL: Here to discuss the reasons for today's split is Anna Burger. She heads a group of unions known as the Change to Win Coalition. She's also the treasurer of the Service Employees International Union. Welcome, Ms. Burger. Could you explain to us why you would boycott the convention today in Chicago and why leave the federation?

ANNA BURGER: Well, the seven unions that are part of the Change to Win Coalition believe strongly that we need to grow the labor movement once again. We are committed to revitalizing the labor movement by focusing resources on organizing in our core industry, by developing strategies where we support each other, by setting standards of accountability so that we can work together again. We believe it's now important to grow the labor movement to give working people in this country a voice again.

GWEN IFILL: So far we know of two unions which have decided to leave, two others which are threatening to leave, one-third of the AFL-CIO's membership. Will this destroy the AFL-CIO or strengthen it?

ANNA BURGER: I think that it will strengthen the voice of working people in this country. The reality is 35 percent of the members in the AFL-CIO are in to the Change to Win Coalition. But we're also joined by the Carpenters Union which is outside of the AFL-CIO. We are a coalition of unions who believe in organizing, who have a track record of addressing the changing environment, the changing world and have changed their unions. We all believe that it's important once again to rebuild strength for working people. It was not that long ago that the labor movement was stronger. And by having a union job it meant that you could raise your family, buy your own home and perhaps send your kids to college.

GWEN IFILL: What changed?

ANNA BURGER: I think a lot of things changed. The world changed. The economy changed. Employers changed. I would say our society and work sites changed but the labor movement didn't. We've been following the same strategies and the same direction. And as a result we've been losing and getting smaller. We think the time is now to change our unions through fundamental change, to refocus on organizing, to refocus on uniting workers who do the same kind of work so that they have a loud voice and can speak up to their employers and can rally together around good jobs, around healthcare, around pensions, and around other issues so that they can raise up our whole communities.

GWEN IFILL: And yet John Sweeney said today that he considered that this split, this dissension to be a grievous insult to the labor movement. Why is he wrong?

ANNA BURGER: I think that, you know, the reality is John Sweeney and the other leaders of the AFL-CIO share the same goals that we have for working people. We all believe that working people should have a share of the economy, should be able to support their families and have a decent life. But we have very fundamental differences in how to do that. The AFL-CIO believes that they should be spending more time talking to politicians and more time... more money spending it on politicians. We believe that we have to be out there talking to workers, uniting workers and giving them a voice so that we can actually change their lives. They are very different strategies. We also believe that we need to work together, to strategize together and to hold each other accountability. And they disagree. We think it makes more sense for us to follow our strategy, for them to follow their strategy. And we hope that we all can raise standards in different ways.

GWEN IFILL: How much time will you spend butting heads with each other instead of pursuing the common goals you say that you agree on?

ANNA BURGER: Well, we've made it very clear that we aren't into organizing workers who are already represented by other unions. We're interested in organizing the 87 percent of the workforce who aren't organized. We think that we should all be doing that. We have offered to partner with the AFL-CIO and any other union who shares our common vision for working people. We're willing to work on issues together, on other campaigns together where we share the same goals.

GWEN IFILL: Some Democrats who have supported from the AFL-CIO, some of the politicians you talked about, are a little concerned about this, the news of this impending split. Is this something which is going to weaken labor politically or strengthen it?

ANNA BURGER: I actually think it's going to strengthen labor but it's also going to strengthen the voice of working people. If we're out there organizing workers, all of our unions are very politically involved and will continue to be politically involved. But what we say is that we should be talking about the issues that resonate with working families, that we should support candidates who stand with working families and their issues and that we should move an agenda that's an independent voice for working people. We think that it will actually involve more workers in the election process and understanding that voting matters.

GWEN IFILL: If the labor movement has lost a number of union households which are members over the years in the 50 years since the AFL-CIO came together, how do you know that that's really about organizing or recruitment or leadership and how do you know that it's not that the labor movement has lost its relevance?

ANNA BURGER: The reality is when you talk to working people they want a union. There's just not a union out there talking to them about how to form a union. There are lots of obstacles. The workforce has changed. Working conditions have changed. And sometimes many people are working multiple jobs to try to make a living. Sometimes it's been hard to reach workers. We believe that we have to address the changing economy and the changing workforce and organize workers in a different way.

GWEN IFILL: Anna Burger, thank you very much.

ANNA BURGER: Thank you for having me.

GWEN IFILL: For the AFL-CIO response we are joined by Harold Schaitberger, president of the International Association of Firefighters. Mr. Schaitberger, welcome. We just Anna Burger says she believes this impending split will actually strengthen the labor movement not weaken it. What's your thought?

HAROLD SCHAITBERGER: Well, first, I want to emphasize that what Anna said, parts I won't take a strong issue with. The fact of the matter is we are all pursuing the same goals. We all want to organize more workers. We want to better the lives and livelihood of working men and women in this country. We are all committed to ensuring that every worker has a good, affordable healthcare. We want strong, effective public school systems. We want to protect the attack that's going on right now with retirement systems throughout many industries and sectors; so our goals, I find, are not different at all. I think our strategies, in fact, are somewhat different but I find it a little disingenuous or at least I'm concerned when I hear that the coalition suggests that the federation has not changed, and the federation is basically following the path of its... an old strategy. The fact of the matter is that this week, we are addressing and we will be adopting a series of resolutions-- many of them incorporating a number of changes that several of us have been putting forward over the many months, including the five unions that right now either are out of the AFL as of today or suggesting that they may disaffiliate.

GWEN IFILL: Mr. Schaitberger, I understand your point, but why is it if everything is so rosy if in fact you agree on what it is and your differences over strategy are minor as you suggest, why this split today which seems... which is pretty historic?

HAROLD SCHAITBERGER: Well it's historic and it starts to take on a flair of, quite frankly, a power grab. I think that there are unions in the coalition that want a change in the officers and the current leadership in the AFL-CIO. And regardless of whether their principles or policies may be addressed and put forward which many of them are, they are not going to be satisfied unless they get to obviously run the federation or be able to select its officers. We have a very....

GWEN IFILL: Excuse me, I'm sorry. Back to my original question. Does that mean that the union, the AFL-CIO today as a result of this split is now weaker than it was?

HAROLD SCHAITBERGER: I don't think that it will be weaker. I'd be less than honest if I didn't emphasize that together and staying united would be much better for workers and much better for the movement. But I don't view that the decision for a few unions to leave the federation is any type of dark day or a disaster. The federation will continue to do its work. The 52 unions that are affiliated with the AFL-CIO will continue to do their individual work. We are pursuing a strategy that we believe is the correct strategy to organize more workers. Gwen, I suggest to you that if we have a stronger, more effective political program, which they view as somehow a negative, that is the strategy that's going to allow us to have meaningful labor law reform, to be able to pass the Employee Free Choice Act. That's going to make sure that we have the labor regulations we need to level the playing field between workers and employers.

GWEN IFILL: So you're saying....

HAROLD SCHAITBERGER: And to have appointments on labor boards that will be at least fair if not friendly to workers. That's the way you change the organizing --

GWEN IFILL: I'm sorry to keep interrupting you. I just wanted to follow up on what it is you just said. So you're saying when she says that this is about the AFL-CIO talking to politicians and not to workers, that that is a useful strategy for the AFL, preserving its political clout?

HAROLD SCHAITBERGER: Well, Gwen, first of all, the AFL-CIO and all of us talk to workers, our members, and workers that that should be our members all the time. We're talking about a fundamental strategy. Are you going to take more money and put it into what I would describe as traditional organizing campaign efforts? Well, the AFL-CIO-- and we have put aside some money to do just that, to grow the organizing resources. But we also believe that the way you really enhance organizing is to elect political officials that are worker friendly. As opposed to Missouri, Kentucky and Indiana who elected three governor s with the stroke of a pen that denied collective bargaining rights to hundreds of thousands of workers, successful political action and electing officials that will be worker and union friendly, that's the way to make sure that we have a fair shot and workers have a clear choice to belong to a union.

GWEN IFILL: And finally, I asked Anna Burger whether the precipitous decline in union membership might have something to do with union relevance. What's your answer to that?

HAROLD SCHAITBERGER: I think our labor movement and unions are as relevant as they ever have been. I will say this to you in all candor and we've put forward a resolution to address it, and that is we need to do a better job in how we communicate to our members and workers that should be our members. We need to be able to frame our message more clearly and more concisely. We need to be more easily understood.

GWEN IFILL: Okay.

HAROLD SCHAITBERGER: We have been right on the issues, whether it's minimum wage, whether it's jobs, whether it's outsourcing, whether it's opposing, you know, bad trade treaties. We're right on the issues. I think that we're going to learn and we are in the process of changing the way we communicate so that workers understand even better the relevancy of this American labor movement.

GWEN IFILL: Thank you very much for joining us.

HAROLD SCHAITBERGER: Thank you, Gwen, for having me.

FOCUS - TRACKING TWISTERS

JIM LEHRER: Now, an encore report from our science unit on chasing tornadoes in Kansas. Tom Bearden is the correspondent.

TOM BEARDEN (segment first aired June 29, 2005): A spring afternoon on the plains of western Kansas, the heart of what some call "tornado alley." If you want to see tornadoes this stretch of the Midwest this time of year will give you your best shot. And so for every year, for the past decade, a team of scientists for the Center for Severe Weather Research has set up shop in this part of the country, bringing several tons of high-tech radar and computer gear along with them. Using this increasingly sophisticated equipment, Joshua Wurman and his colleagues are carrying out a detailed examination of the internal structure of tornadoes.

JOSHUA WURMAN: We're trying to understand the process of tornado formation better so that better predictions can be made. Right now, you might have five to fifteen minutes warning that a tornado is going to occur, and it's a fairly imprecise warning. If we could increase that warning time to, let's say, half an hour or an hour, people might be able to take better safety precautions.

JEFFREY BROWN: Earlier warnings might help prevent some of the approximately 80 deaths and 1500 injuries that tornadoes cause each year. But despite more than 40 years of research, tornado science is still a developing field with a lot of unknowns. That's partly because getting close enough to really study tornadoes is difficult.

JOSHUA WURMAN: It's about ten or fifteen kilometers to our northwest right now. We're expecting -- we're hoping that it will move in our general direction.

TOM BEARDEN: Wurman's team has intersected only 120 in the past ten years. The team finds them by driving toward giant, rotating thunderstorms called super cells and using their Doppler radars to peer inside the clouds and rain. A few super cells eventually generate the narrow, rapidly rotating column of air that drops to the ground to form a tornado. But the causes are complex, with no generally agreed upon theory of why that happens or why so many super cells never develop tornadoes at all.

JOSHUA WURMAN: We're trying to understand the differences between the super cells that produce no tornadoes -- which is most of them -- the few that produce some tornado, and the very, very rare ones that produce the violent tornadoes. A super cell may last one, two, or three hours, or even more, and only produce a tornado during 15 minutes of its life, and knowing whether it's going to produce a tornado at 7 PM, 7:30 or 8 PM, affects which communities you're going to warn.

TOM BEARDEN: This particular super cell did produce a tornado a small, short one, hard to see in all the rain, but it showed up clearly on Wurman's radar screen.

JOSHUA WURMAN: This is kind of fussing around back there. It's not moving farther or closer.

TOM BEARDEN: Unlike fixed weather radars, Wurman's truck-mounted units get close enough to produce sharply focused images that reveal wind speeds at different altitudes of the funnel. And because each radar sweeps the sky quickly, it's possible to watch a tornado's development minute by minute.

JOSHUA WURMAN: By scanning back and forth through the storm, we can make two- and three-dimensional maps of the velocities of raindrops or debris or chickens -- anything that's flying around in a tornado. One of the main foci of our project this year is to get up closer to the tornadoes and observe the lowest levels of the tornadoes, the lowest 100 feet of tornadoes, and if one of those tornadoes that we're observing passes over some structures, we will do a detailed, immediate damage survey, and then directly compatriot winds that we observe to the damage that occurred.

TOM BEARDEN: The next morning, meteorology students working on the project gathered in a low-rent apartment nearly the railroad tracks in Hayes, Kansas. Earlier they analyzed computer weather maps looking for place where's super cells might form later.

STUDENT: I'd say between I-70, U.S. 50 and maybe from U.S. 281 over to U.S. 83, so not far from here.

TOM BEARDEN: It's a relaxed, collegiate atmosphere, with an occasional practical joke. The students are unpaid volunteers and finding funding is always a challenge. The National Science Foundation carries most of the load, but Wurman is always looking for other sources. Project is getting some additional funding from a team of independent photographers who work from a home built armored vehicle that looks like something out of a "Mad Max" movie. They hope to shoot an IMAX film, getting as close as they can to a tornado, and a storm-chasing tour operator pays a fee so his clients can watch Wurman's group at work and later follow their radars into the storm.

JOSHUA WURMAN: We have two different radars and we're doing two different types of experiments with them.

TOM BEARDEN: But despite the shoestring funding, the project pushed funding of tornadoes to new levels of sophistication.

JOSHUA WURMAN: We're frequently forced into a stamp collecting or "my favorite storm" type mode where we're writing a publication about Storm A, and another scientist will write about Storm B, and there are a lot of differences by collecting data in many tornadoes, 120 tornadoes now, we are finally at the point where we can start analyzing more important things about them -- what's the intensity distribution of tornadoes? How rare is it to get a tornado with 250 or 300-mile-per-hour winds?

TOM BEARDEN: Conventional tornado science, the so-called Fujita Scale, tries to measure the strength of tornadoes by measuring the damage they cause. Wurman and his colleagues recently took that a step further by precisely matching the damage in a single tornado in Spencer, South Dakota, to the moment-by-moment changes in the tornado's wind strength.

JOSHUA WURMAN: We know this house had 200-mile-per-hour winds for four seconds and it got calm because it was near the eye of the tornado and it 220-mile-per-hour winds for 20 seconds. We know another house had 150-mile-per-hour winds for 30 seconds. We can compare the different time histories ever damage to actual damage. That is the one and only case where that can be done.

TOM BEARDEN: After following storm predictions in the makeshift base for several hours, at 4 o'clock the science team decided to head south. There was a promising series of storms near the Oklahoma-Kansas border. As the convoy approached through rain and baseball-sized hail, they weren't seeing much activity. Another storm to the northwest began to look better. So they switched targets and raced toward that storm, but it, too, went downhill. An hour later, windshields cracked by hail, they rolled into Dodge City, Kansas, for a late dinner.

TOM BEARDEN: This kind ever thing happen a lot?

JOSHUA WURMAN: Most of our storm intercepts end in busts, and we do not intercept or collect data in tornadoes. If about a fourth of our intercepts result in tornado data, we're doing pretty well. The previous four we got data. The last week or so has been great, but statistically, three out of four chases or more wind up as busts and this was just one of those.

TOM BEARDEN: That's how it goes in tornado science. Wurman's team and other tornado researchers would like to be able to know in advance which storms are worth going to. But that, of course, is exactly what their research is attempting to discover.

FOCUS - CHAMPIONSHIP FINISH

JIM LEHRER: Finally tonight, Ray Suarez looks at what racing champion Lance Armstrong leaves behind.

RAY SUAREZ: Long before Lance Armstrong began celebrating his seventh and final victory in the Tour de France yesterday, it had been clear he would win again. Perhaps not as stunning as previous wins, like his first in 1999 when he returned to racing after battling testicular cancer the seventh victory may have been the most efficient. Armstrong wore the leader's yellow jersey for 17 of 21 days, and for most of the 2,220-plus miles of the race. As he took his final bows before retirement, he addressed those whohad accused him of using drugs over the years.

LANCE ARMSTRONG: And finally the last thing I'll say for people that don't believe in cycling, the cynics and the skeptics, I'm sorry for you, I'm sorry you can't dream big, I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. But this is one hell of a race, this is a great sporting event and you should stand around and believe. You should believe in these athletes and you should believe in these people. And I'm a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live and there are no secrets. This is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it so vive le tour, forever. Thank you. (Cheers and applause)

RAY SUAREZ: The 33-year-old Armstrong is now headed to the south of France for a vacation with his three children and his companion, singer Sheryl Crow.

RAY SUAREZ: For more on Armstrong's legacy, I'm joined by Paul Sherwen, a seven-time competitor in the Tour de France; he's been covering the race since his retirement from pro cycling and is now a commentator for the Outdoor Life Network.

Paul Sherwen, welcome. We're in day one of the post Armstrong era. How do you look back at his career?

PAUL SHERWEN, Outdoor Life Network: Well, it's a little bit strange to think that we'll never see Lance Armstrong actually compete as a professional cyclist ever again. But I have to say if you look back at his career you have got to look at it I think in two parts. There were the pre-cancer Lance Armstrong era and the post cancer as well. A lot of people tend to forget that there was a pre-cancer Lance Armstrong who at 21 years of age was probably one of the youngest ever world professional cycling champions. And then after cancer to me that was his greatest battle coming back and actually being alive because a lot of people told me that that man was really destined to be dead within three months the last time I saw him in 1996. And all of a sudden from 1999 until to date he's actually dominated the arena of the Tour de France and I think the legacy is he's to me become the greatest specialist in the world at the Tour de France.

RAY SUAREZ: Well, how did it change him since you watched him over all those years as an athlete, as a person?

PAUL SHERWEN: Well I think it's had two profound effects on Lance really. When he had the cancer and went through chemotherapy before he was a very good specialist at one-day events but the cancer and the treatment made him lose around about 20 pounds in weight. But he was very lucky in that he actually retained the majority of his strength and the majority of his lung capacity because the cancer had actually got into his lungs and the treatments that he had actually was able to keep most of his lung capacity intact. And I think the important thing then is that he went on to really prove that he was a major specialist. He learned how to enjoy training because before -- I knew Lance Armstrong before he had cancer and he used to race to get fit. Once he'd had cancer, once he'd look death in the eyes I think all of a sudden he enjoyed his training; he enjoyed life. Every day was a bonus.

RAY SUAREZ: Is it possible to compare winning the Tour de France and the preparation that it takes with other standout performances in individual athletic competition or is it just all on its own?

PAUL SHERWEN: I think it's very, very difficult. The only thing you can do is take one mountain stage of the Tour de France and maybe compare it to the New York Marathon. But then after that what you have to bear in mind is that the Tour de France is actually 21 stages like that every day. And youhave to participate and complete every one of those stages. And that's what makes it such a grueling event. There is actually even a percentage of the winners' time that you have to complete the route in every day to stay involved. That I think, it's... the only thing I could think that it would possibly be like is climbing Mount Everest.

RAY SUAREZ: Aficionados seem to be arcing about just where Lance Armstrong fits among the sports' greats because in earlier decades a lot of his rivals among the top racers raced a lot more and won a lot more.

PAUL SHERWEN: Well, they did. But, you know, the sport changes. Life changes. Everything changes as we progress. I think if you really want to situate Lance Armstrong, you have got to say that he's the best professional cyclist at the Tour de France that the world has ever seen. To me-- and this is only my own personal opinion-- he will never be the greatest cyclist of all time because that title will always belong to Eddie Mercks, who was the Mohammed Ali of cycling. Eddie Mercks participated in 1,500 races and he won 530 including five Tours de France, five Tours of Italy, three Tours of Spain plus all the one-day classics but that was also a different era when you could be competitive from February right the way through to October. Armstrong has changed the sport in making riders look at specific goals throughout the season and picking those goals and to peak... I mean Armstrong over the last seven years since 1999 has come out at certain times during the season basically just to test himself, to test his body, to make sure that he was on track to be fit for just three weeks of the year, and that three weeks of the year was always tuned in to be the month of July.

RAY SUAREZ: In the last couple of weeks Lance Armstrong said I've had an unbelievable career. There's no reason to continue. I don't need more. Now other great athletes have said something similar and come out of retirement. Do you think that will happen with Lance Armstrong?

PAUL SHERWEN: No, no, not at all. I think there's a difference between the sport of professional cycling and Tour de France with any other professional sporting event. Armstrong, to put it into perspective, is actually I think the third oldest rider to win the Tour de France since the Second World War only beaten by two Italians who were roughly the same age, 34 years of age. Armstrong will be 34 in September. I think Lance understood that one day or another, Lady Time was going to catch up with him and he wouldn't be able to win the Tour de France anymore. And once he made the decision to actually retire at the end of the Tour de France this year I think that was a magnificent decision to make, to be able to retire at the top of the sport. I don't think he will be able to come back to ride the Tour de France again, physically as well as mentally because the one thing a lot of people can't understand, yes, Armstrong is the strongest athlete in the month of July, but you don't see the 12 months of preparation to be magnificent in July. You don't see the anguish of going out in the rain, the anguish of racing up mountains, in training in subzero conditions. All that mental stress I think has finally started to pay on him. And I think now Armstrong actually wants to have a normal, if he can ever have a normal lifestyle.

RAY SUAREZ: Paul Sherwen joining us from where the Tour de France ends in Paris. Thanks a lot for being with us.

PAUL SHERWEN: Thank you.

RECAP

JIM LEHRER: Again, the major developments of the day: Police in Egypt hunted five Pakistani men, in the deadly bombings at Sharm el-Sheikh. London police made two more arrests in last week's failed bombings there. And the Teamsters and the Service Employees International Union broke away from the AFL-CIO. We'll see you online and again here tomorrow evening with a Newsmaker interview with Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, among other things. I'm Jim Lehrer. Thank you, and good night.