The MacNeil/Lehrer Report; Terrorism in Italy

ROBERT MacNEIL: Good evening. There is faint new hope in Italy that Aldo Moro, the former Prime Minister kidnapped by left-wing terrorists, may still be alive. For two days police have been searching a re mote mountain lake, where the Red Brigades claimed yesterday they had dumped Moro`s body after executing him. The search has been difficult. Ice and snow six feet deep on the lake had to be dynamited to permit frogmen to enter the frozen waters. Tonight the government said the search had revealed nothing and that the terrorists` message may have been a trick. The Vatican newspaper said there was still some hope that Mr. Moro, who is sixty-two, might be alive. The Secretary General of NATO, Joseph Luns, said today that if Mr. Moro`s death were confirmed, it would be a great blow to the free world. Tonight, a look at the motives of the small, fanatical group of kidnappers, and how Italy can cope with their cold-blooded campaign of political terror. We talked to a leading member of the Italian Communist Party. But first, a report on the significance of the Moro kidnapping, filmed in Italy by Thames Television of London. The reporter is John Fielding.

JOHN FIELDING, Reporting: Since March the 16th, Italy, which has known continuous economic and political uncertainty for a decade, has been without its central political figure, Aldo Moro, five times Prime Minister and a strong favorite to be the country`s next President. A highly organized gang ambushed his car and its following car of bodyguards. He has since disappeared without trace.

As the bodies of the dead guards lay in the street, killed almost without firing a shot, a huge public reaction was mobilized across the country, particularly in the North, where in major cities like Milan and Turin thousands of people filled the piazzas to demonstrate against a terrorism that had been growing steadily for a decade. The crowds represented organized labor, political parties and the common public.

ARRIGO LEVI, Editor, La Stam a, Turin Newspaper: It was not just the kidnapping of Moro, which by itself would have created a very large reaction because Moro was a faraway, distant man but a respected man -- not a very communicative man; he`s a very strange man, very curious politician -- great politician, a great statesman; not a popular one. But then there was the killing of the five people who were his escort, and that really left everybody aghast, because killing in cold blood, with a final shot to make sure they were dead, it was horrible.

FIELDING: Three days after the kidnap, Moro appeared in this photograph distributed by the Red Brigades. At the same time, fifteen other Red Brigades members were appearing at a specially built courthouse close by the jail in Turin on charges of kidnapping and being part of an armed conspiracy. Every day they arrive in chains and primitive manacles, regarded as so dangerous that even inside the courtroom they are locked into a special cage. Why are they so dangerous? Since 1970 they`ve publicly committed themselves to armed overthrow of the Italian state, currently ruled by what they regard as a cynical conspiracy between a corrupt Right and a turncoat Left. They do not recognize this court, and in this case have rejected any formal defense by their lawyer, Sergio Spazzali. Spazzali, however, maintains a watching brief, for there are more trials to come for these and other men. He explains their views.

SERGIO SPAZZALI, Lawyer (Translated): Judging by my talks with the accused, they say their support in the country is growing and not diminishing. They say this is borne out by the increasing use of violence, even at less sophisticated levels than theirs, for instance, the use of Molotov cocktails, et cetera, by unorganized groups.

LEVI: If there is a logic in the Red Brigade strategy, it is that of creating the need for a kind of repression by the state, which makes it no longer a democratic repression but a totalitarian repression, with the expectation and the hope that then there is a sort of totalitarian fascist takeover, which then sends the Communist Party onto a revolutionary resistance. And then you get back the Communist Party to being the great revolutionary party. I believe it`s a totally crazy and totally non- realistic plan, but it`s the only plan which they may entertain.

FIELDING: Crazy or not, the Red Brigades have demonstrated ruthless skills in maiming or killing establishment figures, such as this magistrate shot dead in Rome on February 14 this year; the chief prosecutor of Genoa, killed in 1976; and the president of the Turin Bar Association, killed last April. The trail of violence began with the firebombing of industrial executives` cars, escalated to kneecapping of politicians and journalists, then kidnapping and murder.

LUCIANA CASTELINA, Proletarian Unity Party MP (Ex-Communist): You have a country which since ten years has got a Left which is strong enough to prevent the Right to rule, but not strong enough to rule. And you have the Right which is bourgeoisie, which is not strong enough to prevent the Left to do, to have a very great role in this society, and at the same time not enough to crash it. This is the crisis of Italy, you see?

FIELDING: The crisis in Italy is not new; neither is its resolution simple. For twenty years Italy has undergone a fast-moving industrial revolution which is both extensive and traumatic. Northern cities like Turin, where one third of the industrial work force are employed by one company alone, the giant automotive conglomerate FIAT, suffered huge and uncontrolled population influx from the rural South, bringing with it substandard housing, substandard education, a substandard life of unfulfilled promises -- alleviated in the boom of the `60s, exacerbated in the slump of the `70s.

But if this is not the breeding ground of terrorism, it`s certainly the target area. In recent years in FIAT alone there have been twelve shootings, three kidnappings and nine bombings, fires or acts of sabotage. The unions are as threatened as the management by the violence. Their fear is that these men will no longer feel adequately represented by the party of their traditional loyalty, the Communists.

Since the War, there have been thirty-eight governments in Italy, all dominated by the Right, the Christian Democrats. But following the break with Moscow in the

Prague spring of 1968, and particularly since the fall of Allendean Chile in 1973, the Italian Communists, led by Enrico Berlinguer, have marched steadily towards the center to form a historic compromise involving limited cooperation with the Right. The result has been an extensive dissent within the party, although tight Communist discipline makes it difficult to measure accurately.

From what sector, then, would the Red Brigade now be drawing whatever support that it has?

Prof. PAROLO FARNETI, Turin University: The main support, I would say, comes from the radical part of both the Communist Party and the extra- parliamentary Left that thought continuously that the history of the last thirty years is a history of missed chances for armed violent revolution.

FIELDING: And these people, presumably, regard the current leadership of the Communist Party as in a sense traitors.

FARNETI: Yes, traitors.

FIELDING: But Communist dissent over the compromise was mirrored on the Right. Reaction against the flexible center of the Christian Democrat Party, clinging to the remnants of thirty years` power through trading with the Communists, has created a new generation anxious to modernize the Right, but not to compromise. Umberto Agnelli, technocrat, Vice Chairman of FIAT and a Christian Democrat senator since 1976, is one of them.

Do you think the historic compromise is now a dead letter?

UMBERTO AGNELLI, Vice President, FIAT:

Philosophically , yes. Pragmatically , I think we`ll have to deal with Communists for some time now as an emergency case for Italy. I think emergency has an answer by having the Communists in the majority. I think if they would try to ask something more, to have some Communists in the government, I think this would mean they wouldn`t accept this way of dealing together but they would like to take pre-dominancy in the political life of Italy, so I would be against it.

FIELDING: Aldo Moro is the man in the middle, as he has been for two decades, fixer extraordinary. Three days before his kidnap, Moro had managed yet again to buy time for the Christian Democrats in a deal guaranteeing them formal Communist support for the first time in thirty-one years, even though no Communist ministers were appointed. For the Red Brigades, the idea behind the removal of Moro was the destruction of the historic compromise.

What is the significance of the kidnap of Moro, in your view?

CASTELINA: Well, I think that it`s really to destabilize this society and to hit the weakest point of the present balances. And the weakest point is the Christian Democracy. It`s more and more difficult to hold together the two (unintelligible) of this party, one which is openly reactionary and one which is democratic, bourgeois democratic. And well, to hit this unity, this balance, which is really the weakest point of the whole Italian situation, I think this was the aim of the kidnap of Moro.

FIELDING: After a month, there are signs that the Red Brigades may succeed in their initial aim of fragmenting one or other of the main parties and thus the historic compromise itself. But achievement of their second objective - inducing repressive legislation, which in turn would be followed by revolution and the overthrow of the state -- is still a long way off. There`s undoubtedly more surveillance. Twenty-four cameras watch key points in Rome from this central room. There`s more phone tapping. But last month`s emergency legislation, allowing detention of suspects for twenty-four hours without a lawyer, and an increase to life imprisonment in the sentence for kidnapping, is widely regarded as a limit which must not be exceeded.

The editor of La Stampaa believes the new legislation is not repressive and that further laws would go against the Italian character.

LEVI: There is no such thing as the kind of rather harsh, discriminatory measures which, for instance, have been taken in Germany, where you have the whole mechanism of exclusion, excluding people from jobs if they are believed to be extremists, and so on and so forth. There is nothing; of the sort in Italy, there is total freedom of the press, meaning that you have at least two, if not three, daily newspapers which produce every day their stuff which is an invitation to revolution, and so on and so forth -- the sort of attitude which considers the Red Brigades as the comrades who went wrong, but still are our own comrades, they are our own kind.

FIELDING: So far this year there have been over a thousand acts of political violence, at double last year`s rate. And no one doubts there`s more to come.

LEVI: I believe there will be more, yes. I`m afraid so. I don`t believe that we`ve reached the peak of it. I believe that we are near. We might even have reached it; I mean, this might be the peak of it beyond which there is only decline, but I`m not sure. I`m not sure, but the most important thing at the moment is not to have a kind of police reply which creates new Red Brigadiers. I mean, that`s the main point.

FIELDING: But there are those who feel that learning to live with terrorism, keeping cool in the face of the Red Brigades, is a recipe for escalation.

FARNETI: Where is the end of the terrorism, if not in the takeover of the country by the terrorists? The paradoxical fact is that the country can live up with terrorism, as Latin America shows. For twenty years now it has gone on and on. And so it is no solution whatsoever. But this doesn`t seem to me the idea of the Red Brigades.

FIELDING: Logically, then, you look for an escalation of violence by the Red Brigades as inevitable.

FARNETI: Yes. Inevitable.

MacNEIL: While the terrorists appear to be trying to cause the disintegration of Italian democracy, they have succeeded right now in forging an extraordinary unity between the Christian Democrats and the Ital ian Communists. On Monday we `talked in Washington with a leading member of that party, Giorgio Napolitano.

JIM LEHRER: Mr. Napolitano is a member of the Italian Communist Party`s Central Committee, as well as its secretariat and directorate. He`s known primarily as the party`s chief spokesman on economic and social matters. He`s been a Communist since 1945, a member of the Italian parliament since 1953. Mr. Napolitano, welcome.

Do you consider the Red Brigades Communists?

GIORGIO NAPOLITANO: No. They are enemies of the Italian Communist Party and of all the values we are defending. If they call themselves Communists, we must say that they represented a generation of any Marxist thoughts and of any ideals of Socialism.

LEHRER: Are you having trouble in Italy disassociating the party from the Red Brigades?

NAPOLITANO: Well, our party is very well-known in Italy for its democratic commitment, and we are fighting terrorism together with all other democratic parties; we are fighting clearly and strongly.

LEHRER: I noticed a Christian Democrat newspaper in Italy said just after the Moro kidnappings -- let me quote here; it says, "Why are ninety-five percent of the terrorist attacks directed against Christian Democrats and almost none against the Communists? Because the terrorists are Communists who regard the official Communist Party merely as a cousin gone wrong." Any truth to that?

NAPOLITANO: I don`t think that`s true; I don`t think that`s correct. They probably are attacking Christian Democrat representatives because they think it`s the best way to destabilize the Italian political situation, but we too are a target for the Red Brigades, and there were already some representatives of our party who were gravely injured by terrorist attacks.

LEHRER: How do you feel the Red Brigades should be dealt with? Should they be negotiated with, or what should be the posture of the government toward them?

NAPOLITANO: No negotiation is possible, according to us, no bargaining with these groups. The first important way to fight them is their complete political isolation. The second thing is a collaboration between the whole population and the police and those government bodies which have the task to re-establish the democratic order in our country.

LEHRER: Is the Communist Party assisting the police in trying to find the Red Brigades and trying to identify who they are?

NAPOLITANO: We are doing our best, and also the trade union movement is engaged to give its collaboration. Of course it`s not easy, because these terroristic bands are small and very closed organizations, but some successes were realized in the past, and we think they cannot last long if they will be politically isolated and if there will be such a collaboration between the population, the democratic parties and the state.

LEHRER: All right. Robin?

MacNEIL: Some historians have been noticing, and some see an alarming analogy with the situation in Italy when there was terrorism and lawlessness before the Fascist period in Italy, and have wondered whether this might not be preparatory to another period of dictatorship or totalitarianism in Italy. Do you see any similarity between the two periods?

NAPOLITANO: There are great and fundamental differences. First of all, there is a working class movement which is highly mature and responsible and whose democratic commitment is undeniable. Second, there is a strong unity and at this moment an effective cooperation among all anti Fascist and democratic parties.

MaCNEIL: If your party came to power in Italy or shared power in a government and was faced with solving the problems, the social and economic problems that are the background, partly, to the situation as you describe it, could you do it without resort to autocratic or dictatorial powers? Obviously very strong government will be needed, would you agree with that?

NAPOLITANO: Yes, but for us a strong government means today a government based on the unity of all democratic forces. There cannot be a stronger government than this. We asked for a great coalition government, including the Communist Party; we didn`t succeed in obtaining it. But now at least there is an official parliamentary majority, including the major parties, and this is the best guarantee to realize the reforms, the changes which are necessary to solve Italian problems.

MaCNEIL: Thank you. Jim?

LEHRER: Does the Communist Party want to be in charge of the government now? I mean, do you want a strong role in running the Italian government?

NAPOLITANO: Well, we are playing already a role now as a partner of anew parliamentary majority, and we wanted to have also a role in the cabinet, a role corresponding to our weight in parliament. We thought that that would be the most adequate solution for Italian political crisis.

LEHRER: What would you bring to an Italian government that it needs right now? What kind of really drastic changes would you like to see in the government and the way it operates?

NAPOLITANO: Well, first, to keep its promises and to implement the program which has been agreed. And that should mean, for instance in the economic and social field, more productive investment in order to create more jobs, in particular in Southern Italy; and that should mean also more social justice, a more fair distribution of the tax burden, and so on.

LEHRER: As a result of the turmoil now in the country as a result of the Red Brigades and the Moro kidnapping and other things that are going on, do you feel that the time is ripe now for your party to get this role that you want -- maybe seats in the cabinet and so on -- or are there going to have to be new elections? What do you foresee happening in Italy, just from a governmental standpoint, a political standpoint, over the next several weeks and months?

NAPOLITANO: Well, we wanted to avoid, and we gave an important contribution to avoid, new general elections. You know that general elections took place in our country less than two years ago; according to us, it would have been a very grave mistake, with heavy consequences, to have again general elections this year. And this was one of the reasons why we accepted the solution for the last government crisis, pretty different from our proposal. We accepted to become a partner in a parliamentary majority, and not to take part in a coalition cabinet. And while we are too responsible to determine, to provoke, a government crisis every three months, so for the next future we think that the most important thing is to have this new government and this new majority work effectively, give solutions to the most urgent problems; and in the future we foresee and we hope that there will be the possibility to form a coalition government including the whole Left -- that is to say, both Socialists and Communists.

LEHRER: All right. Robin?

MacNEIL: Mr. Napolitano, some Americans, like Henry Kissinger, continue to warn of a danger to the West if your party were to join the government or to come to power on its own. How do you convince people like that, whose voices must be listened to on the Right in Italy, how do you convince them that they`re wrong, that there is no danger of your coming to power?

NAPOLITANO: Well, our first concern was to convince the Italian people, of course. And we convinced the thirty-four percent of Italian electors to vote Communist, and I think that we convinced many people who voted Socialist or Christian Democrat or Republican, of the necessity to cooperate with the Communists. Of course, we are doing our best also to convince people abroad that our participation in a coalition cabinet would give the possibility to solve the Italian problems and would not create any danger for the West. We are speaking of the prospect of a coalition cabinet, including Christian Democrats and the Left parties. We never spoke of the prospect of a one-party government, not even of a two-party Socialist and Communist government. It looks very strange to me that such a coalition cabinet including the Christian Democrats represents such a danger for the West. It seems to me a lack of confidence in Christian Democrats more than in the Communists, don`t you think so?

MacNEIL: Mr. Kissinger said in January, when the crisis that preceded the present arrangement was at its height and there was a prospect of your party entering the government, "The West may find itself with an ally which is at best unreliable and which may even take the Soviet side in a crisis." Now, what would your answer be to that, that the Christian Democrats would not prevent you taking a Soviet side in a crisis?

NAPOLITANO: Yes. It seems absurd to me to think this of the Christian Democrats, but I think that it`s absurd also not to take into account how serious are our commitments. We are a serious party, and when we say that we respect the international alliances and obligations of our country, well, people must believe in us.

MacNEIL: Do you believe that Mr. Carter and his administration are less hostile to you than the Nixon and Ford administrations were?

NAPOLITANO: We don`t think that the problem is to be hostile or not hostile to the Communist Party in Italy; we think that the problem for the American administration, for the political circles of the United States, is to understand the real terms of Italian political situation and to have a realistic attitude, taking into account the balance of powers which exist in the Italian parliament after the general elections of `76.

LEHRER: Mr. Napolitano, finally, understandably many Americans, whether they`re in government or outside of government, have the fear or suspicion, or whatever, of Communists being involved in a Western European government. What would you say to them in summary? Why should they not be afraid of you and your party being involved in a country that has traditionally been a United States ally, particularly since World War II?

NAPOLITANO: Because our history, the way we participated in Italian political life of these thirty years and also before, is a demonstration of our democratic commitment. It is not only a question of words, it`s a question of concrete behaviors and actions. We vote for democratic freedoms against Fascism, and we carried on our democratic commitment for these thirty years. And I want to add that in this moment the responsible attitude, the constructive policy of the Italian Communist Party, is a fundamental contribution to democratic continuity, stability and progress in Italy.

LEHRER: Mr. Napolitano, thank you very much.

NAPOLITANO: I thank you.

MacNEIL: That`s all for tonight. We`ll be back tomorrow night. I`m Robert MacNeil. Good night.