The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour

MR. LEHRER: Good evening. Leading the news this Thursday, Iraq freed hundreds of Kuwaiti prisoners and promised to release 21 foreign journalists. The first American troops in the Persian Gulf are on their way home and Sec. of State Baker left on his diplomatic mission to the Middle East. We'll have the details in our News Summary in a moment. Robin.

MR. MacNeil: On the NewsHour tonight a journalist just out of Baghdad describes the mood of defeat in the Iraqi capital. Next, we debate the Bush administration's attempt to use the momentum of victory to push Israel and the Arabs towards a real peace. We close with a conversation with two Kuwaiti women about the occupation of their country. NEWS SUMMARY

MR. MacNeil: Iraq today freed hundreds of Kuwaiti detainees and promised to release 21 of the three dozen journalists missing in Iraq. A convoy of Iraqi trucks carrying several hundred Kuwaitis arrived in Southern Iraq late today. The detainees were handed over to the Red Cross and continued on to Kuwait. Their release was worked out earlier today in a surprise meeting between Iraqi military officials and the Red Cross. Desmond Hamill of Independent Television News has a report.

MR. HAMILL: Small American posts have been here for a week, waiting for the Iraqis to arrive under an orange flag of safe conduct as arranged. The purpose, to discuss the hand-over of some of the thousands of Kuwaitis arrested and removed by the Iraqi army. Early this morning unannounced two Iraqi officers arrived. They wanted to discuss a hand-over with the Red Cross. The American soldiers were just a go-between, though both sides waited together for some six hours until the Red Cross finally arrived. They were on the wrong side of the road. A soldier went across to tell them where the Iraqis were waiting. The meeting was informal, held outside, it took only ten to fifteen minutes for the Iraqis to complete the initial discussions. Still no one knew any details until Thomas Pizer of the Red Cross came across and told us.

MR. PIZER: What we've heard is that there were people, Kuwaitis, taken from Kuwait when the Iraqi army retreated. We have a second objective also, is to get back the journalists that also are missing in the last few days.

MR. HAMILL: As that good news came out, refugees were still arriving, but not all were so fortunate. This morning just 300 yards from the safety of these forward American troops, one refugee stepped on a cluster bomb just by that post over there. Soldiers who rushed to help were too late to save him. Other cluster bombs still lay all around. If they're moved, even by the wind, they can still explode.

MR. MacNeil: An Iraqi opposition leader in Iran said today that government security forces had detained the journalists to prevent them from reporting anti-Saddam unrest. Opposition sources also claimed today that unrest had spread to Baghdad. They said there had been riots in two Shiite Muslim districts of the capital. They said the Iraqi army had been unable to quell the disturbances. Defense Sec. Dick Cheney also said unrest was spreading North in Iraq. He said the incidence of unrest is greater now than it was a few days ago. Jim.

MR. LEHRER: The first U.S. troops began the journey home from the Gulf today. They were a 152 member unit of the 24th Mechanized Infantry Division based at Ft. Stewart, Georgia. The soldiers left Saudi Arabia early this morning. They are due home sometime after midnight tonight. More than 14,000 troops will return to their home bases in the next few days. Sec. of State Baker left Washington this morning on a nine day trip to the Middle East and to the Soviet Union. State Department Spokesman Richard Boucher talked about the Secretary's efforts to resolve the Arab-Israeli conflict.

MR. BOUCHER: They'll be exploring along two tracks. One is direct Israeli contacts or negotiations with Arab states and the other is the Israeli-Palestinian dialogue. He'll be going out to explore in the region willingness to seek a real peace and we'll see what he can do under the mandate the President gave him last night that he has for this trip.

MR. LEHRER: White House Spokesman Marlin Fitzwater said today Pres. Bush had no immediate plans toget personally involved in the peace process, but he was prepared to do so at an appropriate time.

MR. MacNeil: Israel's foreign minister said his government and the United States were at odds over how to proceed towards peace in the Middle East. Last night, the President called for a settlement of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Today Foreign Minister David Levy said too much pressure on Israel could drive peace away. Mr. Bush's remarks also brought reaction from Jewish leaders in this country. Several met with the President this afternoon at the White House. Afterward, Rabbi Marvin Hier of the Simon Wiesenthal Center spoke with reporters about their concerns over the Baker trip.

RABBI MARVIN HIER, Simon Wiesenthal Center: If Sec. Baker's mission turns out to be first to pressure the Israelis and then to get something from the Arab world, I think it'll be counterproductive. I think after Arafat's endorsation of Saddam Hussein and the Palestinians standing on the rooftops cheering for the Scuds, it is no way to go by going first to Israel and say to Israel, why don't you start a rapprochement with the Palestinians, who just loved and embraced Saddam Hussein. The only way to go is to say to the Kuwaitis and the Saudis now that you have the same problem, why don't you and the Israelis get together for bilateral discussions. I think the Secretary's wise enough to know that.

MR. LEHRER: The House of Representatives this evening moved toward passage of the $42.6 billion war costs bill. The bill includes 650 million in aid for Israel's war-related expenses. The House defeated an attempt to kill the Israel funding by a vote of 397 to 24. Final passage of the bill is expected tonight.

MR. MacNeil: The Albanian government today put its main seaport under military control. The action was an attempt to halt a mass exodus of its citizens to Italy and the other surrounding nations. We have a report narrated by Tom Browne of Worldwide Television News.

MR. BROWNE: Hundreds of Albanians streamed across the border on foot at the small town of Bozak. They were tired and hungry but overjoyed to be in Yugoslavia. Yugoslav nurses offered them comforting words and what refreshment was on hand. Buses waiting to take them to temporary shelter were quickly jammed. There were doctors as well to make sure that refugees would get any medical treatment they needed. They had just left the poorest country in Europe. Little could be taken for granted about their physical state. Friends rejoiced in the crush, but these people were luckier than some who chose the seaborne route to freedom. Albania's Communist authorities clamped military controls on its ports as the refugee ship Tyranna arrived in Brindisi, Italy. On board, there was scarcely room to breathe. Italian officials said the Albanians would have to stay put for the time being. On shore, others scuttled for food. An estimated 7,000 Albanians were on ships or at the docks of Brindisi, with another 5,000 on boats lying offshore. They may be there some time. Those on the cement barge were allowed to leave. Some were injured and had to be carried off. It too had been jam packed during the voyage.

MR. MacNeil: This afternoon the Italian government said it would send most of the 12,000 refugees back to Albania.

MR. LEHRER: Los Angeles Police Chief Daryl Gates said today he wants criminal charges brought against three officers involved in beating a man last Sunday. A bystander videotaped the policemen shocking 24 year old Rodney King with a stun gun and clubbing and kicking him as he lay on the ground. King was unarmed. He had been pulled over for speeding. The officers involved are white and King is black, but Chief Gates said there was no evidence the beating was racially motivated.

MR. MacNeil: The Senate today voted 99 to nothing to confirm Illinois Congressman Edward Madigan as Secretary of Agriculture. Madigan served 18 years in Congress and was the senior Republican on the House Agriculture Committee. He replaces Clayton Yeutter, who will become Chairman of the Republican National Committee. That's it for the News Summary tonight. Now it's on to a reporter just out of Baghdad, reaction to Pres. Bush's new Middle East peace initiative, and a conversation with two survivors of the occupation of Kuwait. FOCUS - INSIDE BAGHDAD

MR. MacNeil: First tonight we have a description of the mood in Baghdad. Yesterday the Iraqi government ordered all foreign journalists to leave by tomorrow morning. Joining us is a reporter who just left, Lee Hockstader of the Washington Post. I spoke to him this afternoon from Amman, Jordan. Lee Hockstader, to begin with, why do you suppose Iraq has ordered all the foreign journalists like you to leave?

LEE HOCKSTADER, Washington Post: Well, as you know, the unrest in Iraq has been continuing, spreading from Basra to some of the other cities in the South. The crackdown that Saddam Hussein is using to quell these disturbances is spreading. He's using harsher and harsher methods, and the thinking among a lot of the Western reporters in Iraq is that Saddam is not interested in having witnesses, foreign witnesses, to this crackdown, and so that it's convenient for him now to get rid of those witnesses so that -- and it could be an ominous sign. It could be a sign of a more brutal crackdown than we've seen so far.

MR. MacNeil: The exiled opposition is claiming today that the rioting spread yesterday to two Shiite districts in Baghdad. do you have any evidence to support that?

MR. HOCKSTADER: No, I don't. I had heard rumors of that just before I left on Tuesday night but I have not heard any confirmed reports. I hadn't talked to anybody in Baghdad who knew of disturbances in Baghdad. Information was extremely difficult to confirm while we were there. We were kept on an extremely tight leash by their government censors and so even if there had been some disturbances inside of the City of Baghdad, it's quite possible that it could have escaped our notice.

MR. MacNeil: Did you run into any doubt, even in those difficult circumstances, that Saddam could actually suppress this, that he had the power and the ability to suppress this?

MR. HOCKSTADER: I think -- I think there is little doubt that he still has quite a few troops who are loyal to him. The Republican Guard, for example, the elite forces in the Iraqi army, are extremely loyal to Saddam. And in addition to that, there's an enormous network of security forces in Iraq, many of which I think we can assume are probably still loyal to Saddam. These are the forces that he's using with the Republican Guard to put down the uprisings in the South and it's probably a fair assumption that if there are disturbances in Baghdad, he'll use those forces very strongly to counteract whatever uprising there might be in the capital.

MR. MacNeil: Could you gather how much the people of Baghdad have learned about the defeat in the war, what went on down there in Kuwait?

MR. HOCKSTADER: This is something that changed as time went on. In the first couple of days just after the announcement of the withdrawal, just after the allies' announcement of the cease-fire, we had the impression that people in Baghdad weren't exactly sure what to believe. They were hearing on the official Baghdad Radio that Iraq had won a glorious victory, but they were also hearing Voice of America and the British Broadcasting Corporation, which, of course, were reporting that the allies had won a huge victory. But over the next few days, as soldiers started returning from the front, you could almost see the news, the anecdotes from the front spreading through the city, and as that happened over those two or three or four days after the cease-fire, there was little doubt of what had happened. Just about everybody who I talked to in Baghdad was not, were not believing the official version. Everybody knew what had happened and the stories, the horror stories of carnage and killing at the front were starting to make their way into the neighborhoods. It was an interesting process to watch.

MR. MacNeil: You say you could see it. How could you see it? Describe that.

MR. HOCKSTADER: Well, for example, on a couple of trips that I made just on the outskirts of the cities we would be on highways, we would drive by bus stops in which there would be two or three or four Iraqi soldiers standing there with an enormous group of civilians surrounding them, and the civilians were listening intently. We saw this repeated all over the city and it was clear that the soldiers were coming back from the front and coming back with their stories of the, of the defeat.

MR. MacNeil: How would you describe the mood in the city? I mean, after all the bombing -- there's all the effect of the bombing and the economic embargo and sanctions are still in force.

MR. HOCKSTADER: Well, I don't want to overstate the destruction to Baghdad. I have the impression that a lot of people at home think that the city is rubble. Baghdad is an enormous city. It's 4 million people. And it's quite possible to drive around neighborhoods of town. You can drive for quite a while in Baghdad before you come across any evidence of bomb damage. The allies weren't trying to reduce Baghdad to rubble and they didn't, however, you'll be driving along and things will be seemingly normal although the windows are all taped up, and then you'll round a corner and you'll see a building, for example, telecommunications buildings, or post offices, government ministries, the central bank, which are absolutely totaled, just an enormous pile of twisted concrete and twisted steel. And this, the aftermath, the destruction of the city has left people extremely angry, angry -- the anger is diffuse. People are angry at Saddam, of course, for having gotten the country into this mess, but there is also quite a bit of anger even by people who are angry at Saddam directed at the allies and directed at Pres. Bush. There's a feeling that Pres. Bush perhaps went too far in the destruction of Iraq and that the war became more about the destruction of Iraq than the liberation of Kuwait. So there's a lot of anger, there's a lot of confusion, and of course, people are suffering. People are suffering from the lack of electricity, no phones, a dirty water supply, no lights in almost all of the capital. It's an extremely difficult situation and prices as well are extremely high.

MR. MacNeil: What -- just how do you -- what is the quality of life that the average Iraqi can lead right now with the circumstances you've described -- how are they living?

MR. HOCKSTADER: My understanding is that before the war Baghdad was a reasonably modern capital. There are large, modern buildings all overthe place, and people were accustomed to a reasonably comfortable standard of living even by the standards of the Mid East. People were certainly accustomed to using the telephone. There are a million and a quarter cars in Iraq. It was common for middle class families to have a car. And now not only is there no light, no telephone service, of course, there's almost no social life, people can't drive, because they can't get gasoline, there's no gasoline because there are no additives to make the gasoline from Iraqi petroleum. The quality of life is poor. You can feed yourself. The markets are open and you can find basic consumer goods, but the prices for almost everything have gone up drastically. It's extremely difficult for them. They've gotten used to a certain standard of living and that standard is plummeting.

MR. MacNeil: And how do you think -- what do you think is the political implication of all that, all that discomfort and unhappiness?

MR. HOCKSTADER: It's hard to tell who's going to suffer from it. What's happened here is that the allies launched an enormous bombing campaign which was directed at military and strategic targets. It was an effective bombing campaign. However, in the aftermath, the destruction of those military facilities is now harming civilians. It's almost a classical guerrilla strategy, guerrilla warfare strategy, to damage the infrastructure to such an extent that you hope that deprivations and the hardship that's inflicted upon the civilian population leads to an insurrection, leads to anger at the government, even though the government, the Iraqi government didn't cause all this damage, the Americans are at this point hoping that the Iraqi government will suffer from the people's anger at all this government -- at all this damage. But it's very difficult to tell who people are going to direct their anger at. There's certainly anger at Saddam Hussein, but there's also anger at the Americans, there's anger at the other Arab countries who are in the coalition. It's hard to tell whether the unrest is going to spread to Baghdad. Unless it does, it's hard to imagine the regime falling.

MR. MacNeil: Well, Lee Hockstader, thank you very much for joining us.

MR. HOCKSTADER: Thank you for having me.

MR. LEHRER: Still to come on the NewsHour tonight, making a real peace in the Middle East and a conversation about the occupation of Kuwait. FOCUS - PEACE PUZZLE

MR. LEHRER: Now making peace from war in the Persian Gulf. Last night in his speech to Congress, Pres. Bush said Israel must be willing to surrender occupied Arab lands in exchange for peace. That point drew an official negative reaction in Israel today. Foreign minister David Levy told reporters in Jerusalem, "We are in controversy in this matter. They have their positions and we have ours." Pres. Bush's spokesman, Marlin Fitzwater, said today in response, "The countries of the region need to be talking to each other and need to be considering their security in a new context." We have four views of what obstacles Pres. Bush and all others face in trying to make a broad Israeli-Arab peace. Dore Gold is director of the U.S. Foreign Defense Policy Project at Jaffe Center, at the Jaffe Center of Tel Aviv University, and he's an adviser to the Israeli government. Yehoshafat Harkabi is the former chief of Israeli military intelligence and chairman of the Department of International Relations at Hebrew University. He's currently a visiting professor at Princeton University, and he joins us from Princeton. Zi Abu Amr is a professor of political science at Birzeit University on the West Bank and now a visiting professor at Georgetown University. Helena Cobban is a resident scholar at the Foundation For Middle East Peace. She's the author of several books on resolving the Arab-Israeli conflict. Mr. Gold, you shook your head when I said you were an adviser to the Israeli government.

MR. GOLD: I as well as many of my colleagues do consulting from time to time, but I'm not a permanent adviser. I don't receive a salary from the Israeli government.

MR. LEHRER: I stand corrected. If you were an adviser to the Israeli government, would you tell them to agree with Pres. Bush? Mr. Bush said in his speech last night it was time for all parties to compromise. Do you believe it's time for Israel to compromise, particularly on the issue of land for peace?

MR. GOLD: Well, I think we have to explore what's possible. Certainly Pres. Bush's speech represents a very positive development in one aspect in that he's focusing on the need for wider peace. We're now not just focusing on the Palestinian issue with Israel. We're looking at what kind of peace arrangements we can make with the Arab states. Now whether land for peace is the only solution or whether we have to look at broad arrangements, created solutions for dealing with the Israeli security and the rights of different people in the region is something that should be left open for negotiations and not assumed ahead of time to be the only basis for moving forward.

MR. LEHRER: But in general, do you believe that Israel should also be willing to compromise? Do you agree that the President is right, that there isn't going to be a resolution if the Arabs and the Israelis both don't agree to compromise?

MR. GOLD: We have to look for a different formula. You have to remember, the West Bank overlooks in terms of Israel some 60 percent of its industrial capacity, of its population actually, and 80 percent of its industrial capacity along the coastal plain. That's something that Israel's very sensitive about. A peace in order to work in the Middle East must be a defendable peace, and just signing a piece of paper is not enough. You need the security arrangements that Israel, itself, can protect, can guard over, in order to make a peace permanent.

MR. LEHRER: Mr. Harkabi, what's your view of what Israel's attitude should be going into this post war environment as far as a broad Middle East peace is concerned?

MR. HARKABI: It seems to me Israel has to understand that the Palestinians want to resign themselves to the idea that only the Jews deserve to have a state and they deserve to have something in fair autonomy under the aegis of Israel. And, therefore, I don't see another possibility but that there will be petition, there will be a Palestinian state side by side with Israel. I think it's no good to demand that in order for Israel to exist others should not have a state. Too, the Palestinians behaved badly in this conflict, but nations don't forfeit the right to statehood because they behave badly. We have seen that in the second world war in the case of Germany and Japan.

MR. LEHRER: What do you think about that, Mr. Gold? Do you disagree with Mr. Harkabi?

MR. GOLD: The Palestinian situation is extremely complex. The Palestinians, on the one hand, have a unique identity, on the other hand are part of the Arab world. And on the other side of Jordan, in Jordan, itself, we have a Palestinian majority. These are unique conditions that must be reflected in the overall settlement as far as Israel is concerned. The West Bank has unique conditions in terms of Israel's security, but almost every Israeli general agrees on the control of the air space over that territory, the need for radar stations on its hilltops that look eastward, not to fight the Palestinians, but to fight the danger from Arab states. At present the Iraqi threat to Israel has been reduced, but in seven years' time, eight years' time, there's an international armaments market out there that Israel has to consider.

MR. LEHRER: Mr. Harkabi, what about that, how can Israel be secure with a Palestinian state right next to it?

MR. HARKABI: I won't say that that's a good solution, but all others are worse, and that is the real choice that we have to make, so instead of excluding the Palestinians from the right to have a state, let us look into the possibilities of the safeguards how to secure Israel. I believe that that is a line that may lead to the solution of the Israeli conflict. But if Israel describe or demands that it has to control the West Bank and that the Palestinians will be deprived of having some kind of independence for themselves, I believe that that will lead to nowhere, only to the continuation of the conflict. No Arab state will negotiate with Israel unless the Palestinians are involved. Egypt had something to negotiate because it got back Sinai, but what gain has Morocco or Saudi Arabia, or the other members of the Arab League? Only Syria has an interest to negotiate directly with Israel. But Syria made it very clear that it demands the Golan Heights and it demands the solution of the Arab-Israeli conflict. So therefore, I don't see any possible alternative but to partition. That is to say within one territory to which both Jews and Arabs will have allegiance, sentimental allegiance, calling it that their homeland, there will be two states in which they will exercise sovereignty. In the future, there may develop collaborative relationship between these two states. But I think it's a wrong policy to say to the Palestinians no, you won't have a state, you will have a state in Jordan. Now the Palestinians in the West Bank which are almost 2 million won't agree that their state is in Jordan and they live in a diaspora. They want to have their state in the place where they live.

MR. LEHRER: Let's ask Mr. Abu Amr, you are a West Bank Palestinian. Do you agree with Mr. Harkabi that there must be a Palestinian state if there's going to be a broad peace in the Middle East?

MR. ABU AMR: Of course. A number of attempts in the past have been made to reach solution to the conflict in the region and none of these attempts succeeded and they did not succeed precisely because the Palestinian legitimate equal rights were not addressed.

MR. LEHRER: What about Mr. Gold's point that from Israel's point of view Israel must have, must be secure, must be secure from potential enemies and et cetera, not just from the Palestinians, but others who might use Palestinian air space and all the other - - you heard what he said -- do you have any sympathy for that, any understanding of that?

MR. ABU AMR: I do, but I think Israel's security should be addressed by all means in the world other than confiscating Palestinian land. I don't think I would sympathize with Israel's plight for security if the Palestinian people are going to be deprived from their equal right and their own security at all. I believe everybody today realizes that Israel's security cannot be obtained by keeping the West Bank and Gaza. The war in the Gulf has indicated that very clearly.

MR. LEHRER: It has. In what way?

MR. ABU AMR:The Scuds did not come from the West Bank and Gaza. They came from a country which is hundreds of miles away. And maintaining the West Bank and Gaza did not stop that threat to Israel. The president, himself, said last night that geography cannot ensure the security of states. I think I agree with Prof. Harkabi that there are many ways and means to ensure the security of states short of depriving other peoples from their equal rights to statehood.

MR. LEHRER: Ms. Cobban, the Israeli government has said, the Shamir government has said before there can be a resolution even discussions, serious discussions about the Palestinian -- I'm paraphrasing here -- but about the Palestinian issue, there has to be peace with the other Arab nations, and that, is that possible now?

MS. COBBAN: Well, I think the Arab states have shown a remarkable readiness to come forward with the government of Israel, maybe even to give it the recognition that it seeks and deserves, but I don't think you're going to find any other Arab state apart from Egypt who will sit down with the government of Israel if the Palestinian issue is not on the agenda. You know, that has always been out there as an option, obviously. Prime Minister Shamir has had offers out there to the Syrians, to others, to sit down state to state for a long time and they haven't come. Well, for two reasons. One because Shamir always made clear that he was not going to talk about territorial concessions and, of course, to get the Syrians to the table without giving them back the large part of Golan Heights or at least giving them, you know, sovereignty with de-militarization or with whatever, you can't attract the Syrians on that basis and you can't attract them if you're not going to talk about the Palestinian issue. So I think that Shamir is disingenuous to say the least when he says that first the Arab states must come and then afterwards maybe we will deal with the Palestinians. The President yesterday made quite clear that both tracks have to be addressed, and I think that is quite appropriate, that the two have very intimate linkages.

MR. LEHRER: All right. Lay out a scenario. As we speak, the Secretary of State is on his way to the Middle East with these orders, to do the double track. Give me a way that he could make this work. How could he say to Israel and Syria at the same time and you all, give me a possible way that he could be successful.

MS. COBBAN: Well, I think that Pres. Bush has a unique position right now. His popularity is at an all time high. His international prestige is at an all time high, and he has said in speech yesterday that he's going to use this position to push for Arab- Israeli peace. For us who have been working in this field for a long time, this is just a remarkable moment in history and Pres. Bush will probably never be again as powerful as he is these few weeks. So I'm very much looking for him to do something fairly fast to invite the parties to some kind of a conference perhaps in Geneva, under his auspices, or under U.S.-Soviet auspices and the Security Council permanent members' auspices.

MR. LEHRER: Altogether or one at a time?

MS. COBBAN: Invite them altogether and see who comes. I mean, I think that's a wonderful way to start, and if the Arabs come, it means that they are prepared to sit down with the Israelis. There's obviously the question of Palestinian representation which has to be addressed. There are a number of ways of doing this. One would be through the Jordanians. Another would be for the Security Council to mandate very speedy elections in the occupied territories, to send in election monitoring teams, to organize those elections, and have the people in the occupied territories generate their own representatives fairly fast, but I think that Palestinian representation issue in a sense is secondary at this stage to the issue of getting everybody at the table and there will be a seat for Palestinians in some sense.

MR. LEHRER: Would, would Israel come to that conference, Mr. Gold?

MR. GOLD: Well, in the Middle East procedure implies substance and if you get yourself into a procedure where all the basic members of that conference take a position which is very distant from the position of the state of Israel, the chances of us falling into some kind of compelled solution against our superior interests would be great. A framework in which we are negotiating with each Arab state under maybe some kind of auspices, but that there are direct negotiations between Israel and individual Arab states is the kind of framework that can assure that that kind of leverage won't be put on Israel to go beyond its red line.

MR. LEHRER: But let's take Ms. Cobban's scenario. Let's say the President of the United States says I want to have a conference in Geneva or in Topeka, it doesn't matter, I want to have a conference, and here's what's going to be on the table, the Arab states are going to have to talk about recognition of Israel, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, Israel's going to have to talk about land for peace and rights to the Palestinians, and the Palestinians are going to have to come and talk about peace and security -- everything, all the thorny subjects are going to be on the table - - can Israel refuse to come?

MR. GOLD: Well, of course, an invitation from the President of the United States under those conditions is very difficult to refuse, but we went through this already. Sec. Shultz, for example, in 1988, supported the idea of an international conference and Israel was very nervous about adopting that. Part of the Israeli government tried to work out an arrangement with King Hussein which limited the powers of the international conference and defined them. Maybe that's an approach that has to be taken again, but what's very important to stress is that we don't fall into procedures that assure that this kind of a conference would take Israel beyond its red lines in security.

MR. LEHRER: Mr. Abu Amr, is there any question in your mind that the Palestinians would participate in such a conference?

MR. ABU AMR: Well, if the Palestinians don't participate in the conference, then the conference would not have fulfilled its, one of its major goals. We tried piecemeal solutions, the Camp David Accord, the Egyptian-Israeli peace treaty, that were to some degree were right, but we are still confronted with the other problems of the Arab-Israeli conflict. The Palestinians do welcome the idea of a regional conference, a peace conference, an international conference, if you wish, and --

MR. LEHRER: Under anybody's auspices, is that what you're saying?

MR. ABU AMR: Yeah, because, you know, I think I agree with Helena in 1982 and 1983, the Arabs adopted a plan which provides for the acceptance of the security of all the states in the area. I'm talking about the first summit conferences. In 1988, the PLO recognized Israel. Much of the work has already been done by the Arabs and the Palestinians. I think what we need at this point is two things. We need a gesture from the international community, the UN, the new -- the new UN, which played a major role in the Gulf crisis, and we need a different position by the government of Israel.

MR. LEHRER: Mr. Harkabi, what do you think the Israeli -- how the Israeli government would react to some kind of scenario along the lines that Ms. Cobban laid out?

MR. HARKABI: The leaders of Israel said that Israel will have a big country and furthermore, that was not only a political position. They settled the West Bank and of course, they fear that their position will turn to be a delusion, that Israel will have to withdraw from the West Bank, and therefore, they are afraid of a crisis that will ensue. I learned a lesson from all the negotiations there, arms control negotiations, that before you start negotiations, there is a degree, there is a need to agree on some kind of a common denominator, and in this case, the common denominator seems to me the principle laid down by Pres. Bush, that is to say, exchange of peace for a territory. Furthermore, ending the termination of war situation with the Arab state, therefore, before doing anything, it seems to me first one has to produce the common denominator. Now if Israel refuses, and it seems if Israel refuses, it seems to me that Israel will court a showdown, an unpleasant showdown with the United States. I don't see simply another escape. I consider that inevitable.

MR. LEHRER: All right.

MR. HARKABI: Israel won't have all this territory, but has to reach some kind of a compromise.

MR. LEHRER: I'm sorry to have to interrupt, Mr. Harkabi, but we are out of time. Ms. Cobban, gentlemen, thank you very much. CONVERSATION - MEMORIES OF WAR

MR. MacNeil: Finally tonight a conversation about the occupation of Kuwait. While many of the Emirates' wealthiest citizens fled the country after Iraq invaded, some chose to remain. Correspondent Charles Krause spoke with two of them, both members of a prominent Kuwaiti family.

MR. KRAUSE: We talked to Selwa Al Ghanim and her cousin Badrya at the family home in Kuwait City. It was Selwa's brother, Makmud, who was taken hostage by Iraqi troops as they fled Kuwait last week. Like thousands of other Kuwaiti hostages, he hasn't been heard from since. The two women told us there was nothing they could do when they discovered Makmud was missing.

SELWA AL GHANIM: Nothing, no, nothing at all. I mean, whom could we go to? Whom could we go to? There was nobody. Kuwait was cut off from the world for seven months. We really didn't know -- there was a bit of contact here and there, but otherwise, whom could we go to? Nobody.

MR. KRAUSE: Did your brother belong to the resistance? Was there any reason for them to take your brother away?

SELWA AL GHANIM: No, there is no reason. But I would like to say that every child, every mother, every young man, every elderly man, we were all part and parcel of the resistance movement. We had different functions, you see. I mean, my brother and like many of his friends and they were helping, taking food to, you know, far away places in Kuwait where it was very difficult and it was a big risk because the Iraqis at times would stop them and would actually ask them, you know, either your life or the food, give us the food, because they didn't have food themselves, they didn't have food, they didn't have water. They were not equipped at all.

MR. KRAUSE: And what do you think happened to your brother?

SELWA AL GHANIM: We don't know. We honestly don't know. We are very, very worried and we know and we've seen evidence of torture. We've seen people have been executed and anything can happen. God only knows.

MR. KRAUSE: A majority of Kuwaitis left. Why did you and your family choose to stay?

BADRYA AL GHANIM: How can you leave? This is not a land -- we came like a human, like a mother, like a baby just crying -- really, we felt it. It is the first time I feel my country, sad, you know, not to -- takes this tragedy to make me love this country that much. I really love it.

SELWA AL GHANIM: This land has always been giving and giving and giving. Fine, it's a rich country, it's oil, but that's not oil. Kuwait is not oil only. And I've never been proud of my people as I've been, as I've experienced the seven months because we honestly didn't know whether we can stand up to this butcher, we didn't. He destroyed our country, he butchered our people. He is as Mr. Bush rightly called him "the thief of Baghdad". But one thing he could not destroy, and that is our morale and our dignity. We stood, the Kuwaitis that remained in Kuwait, we stood steadfast and for the first time, for a very long time, we were really, the full meaning of the word, we were one family.

MR. KRAUSE: Do those of you who stayed behind feel that you've earned something politically, more say, more power in this country because you stayed behind and fought?

SELWA AL GHANIM: Yes.

MR. KRAUSE: While the others left.

BADRYA AL GHANIM: Yes.

SELWA AL GHANIM: We feel that very very strongly that we do have this right and we've earned this right. It's not that it's been given to us. We've earned it in this tragedy, that all the young men, all the women feel the same thing, that we have earned this right, and I don't think we will be willing to give it up so easily.

MR. KRAUSE: Do you, do you think there's a feeling that the ruling family has forfeited its right to return and take the same place and position and power that it had before the position?

BADRYA AL GHANIM: Many people from the ruling family, young ones, were here and they were hiding. They could have gone or run away, right? Really, to be fair.

SELWA AL GHANIM: The general feelings of the Kuwaitis do feel that the Sabah really have forfeited the right. On the other hand, having said that, they want them back, you see, they believe there is no other alternative, but they want very profound and poignant changes. Personal views, then I would like to keep it personal.

MR. KRAUSE: One last question that I would like to ask you. We've heard that many Kuwaitis who stayed collaborated with the Iraqis. Is there any truth to that?

SELWA AL GHANIM: Yes, unfortunately, but having said that, there were -- there are -- there were a number of Palestinians who fought side by side with the Kuwaiti resistance and some of them were tortured like the Kuwaitis. Some of them have been executed like the Kuwaitis, and these Palestinians were the ones who were really born in Kuwait, born and bred in Kuwait, so they had a very strong sense of loyalty to this land. But unfortunately, quite a number of different, different sectors of Palestinian society chose to work for Saddam, with Saddam.

MR. KRAUSE: Tell me a little bit about those. Specifically what were the Palestinians doing during the occupation or what were some of the Palestinians doing during the occupation?

SELWA AL GHANIM: Well, a lot of them were informers, informers. They actually informed on a lot of Kuwaiti, you know, families who had military connections.

MR. KRAUSE: Why did the Palestinians choose to collaborate?

BADRYA AL GHANIM: I don't know. I think they were playing, they were with the winner.

SELWA AL GHANIM: Yes. And I think --

BADRYA AL GHANIM: They were with the winner definitely.

MR. KRAUSE: And now they've lost. They've come out on the wrong side don't you think?

SELWA AL GHANIM: Yes.

BADRYA AL GHANIM: It's very sad.

SELWA AL GHANIM: They've backed the wrong cause.

BADRYA AL GHANIM: All our life we've been speaking with foreign press, for many all of our life, working hard. We did everything for the Palestinian propaganda because we say we are Arabs and to hear in my house on that television slogans cursing the ruling and cursing us and cursing our government, I don't know if I can't ever forget that.

MR. KRAUSE: Is this going to change the -- is there going to be a realignment in the Arab world as a result of this? Did the Palestinians make a fatal mistake, do you think?

SELWA AL GHANIM: Yes, a very fatal mistake, very fatal mistake.

MR. KRAUSE: What will the result be? What might it be?

SELWA AL GHANIM: It's really very difficult to sort of speculate because you know Pres. Bush was, keeps on saying about the new order, and of course this new order affects us too and affects this world. Everybody's now asking for more participation in the decision making.

MR. KRAUSE: Here in Kuwait.

BADRYA AL GHANIM: Yes.

SELWA AL GHANIM: And not only in Kuwait. I think in the whole Arabian Peninsula, because the status quo that was before the occupation will hopefully not be repeated.

MR. KRAUSE: Selma and Badrya Al Ghanim, thank you very, very much for joining us. RECAP

MR. MacNeil: Again, Thursday's main stories, Iraq freed hundreds of Kuwaiti detainees. It also promised to release 21 of the three dozen journalists missing in Southern Iraq. The first American troops from the Persian Gulf will arrive in the U.S. shortly after midnight. Sec. of State Baker left on a post war diplomatic mission to the Middle East. Finally tonight, the Defense Department has identified one more American killed in action in the Gulf War. We close tonight's program with his name. Good night, Jim.

MR. LEHRER: Good night, Robin. We'll see you tomorrow night with Gergen & Shields among other things. I'm Jim Lehrer. Thank you and good night.