The MacNeil/Lehrer Report; Hanafit Moslems

ROBERT MacNEIL: Good evening. The siege in Washington continues tonight. Some 139 hostages are being held in three buildings by an estimated nine heavily armed gunmen. They all apparently belong to a small branch of the Muslim faith, the Hanafi Muslims. Their leader, Hamaas Abdul Khaalis, has threatened to kill more, and says he is prepared to die himself if his demands are not met. Those demands are withdrawal of the movie, "Mohammed, the Messenger of God" on grounds that it desecrates his faith. The New York distributor complied yesterday, stopping the projector in mid-performance and refunding tickets. The other demands relate to the murder in 1973 of seven Hanafis, including women and small children in Khaalis` family. Khaalis blames the murder on the Black Muslims. He`s demanding that their leaders and their convicted killers be delivered into his hands for the revenge he says his religion entitles him to. Finally, he wants authorities to annul a $750 contempt of court fine for an outburst in court during the trial of his family`s murderers.

No more violence has been reported today as both sides wait and negotiate. Yesterday one man was killed and five wounded when Khaalis and his followers invaded the three buildings. Tonight, a look at the varieties of Muslim faith in the United States, and what connection there may be with this bizarre incident.

But first, the day in Washington. Jim?

JIM LEHRER: Robin, most people here in Washington probably did what I did today -- stayed close to a television set or a radio. The sense of involvement was inescapable. Two of the locations, the B`nai B`rith building and the City Hall, are within walking distance of my office; the third, the Islamic Center, is on the route I take home from this studio every night. The most startling thing about today -- the second day of the siege -- was the fact that it was still going on. What fresh news there was trickled out. Food was brought in to the gunmen and the hostages this morning; two hostages, apparently ill, were released later; the Mayor of Washington, with the help of diplomats from three Moslem countries -- Pakistan, Egypt and Iran -- were involved in negotiations but the details were secret; at the request of the D.C. police a nineteen-gun salute for visiting British Prime Minister James Callaghan was canceled -- one of the buildings is only 200 yards from the White House, and the sounds of cannons might have panicked the gunmen; Attorney General Griffin Bell, at the request of the President, stayed abreast of what was going on, paying a visit to D.C. Police Headquarters; six or seven members of Congress, all of them either Jewish or black, requested police protection; Wallace Muhammad, leader of the Black Muslims, flew to Washington this afternoon -- he has offered to meet with the gunmen. The major news of the day, however, continued to come from Abdul Khaalis himself, the leader of the Hanafi raiding party. In telephone interviews during the day from the B`nai B`rith building he reiterated his demand that the six men convicted of the 1973 massacre be brought to him. It seems unlikely that authorities could ever accede to that demand; so then what happens, and when? Robin?

MacNEIL: Dr. Nasrollah Fatemi is a former Iranian delegate to the United Nations. He claims direct descent himself from the prophet Mohammed and is a noted Islamic scholar. He is presently a distinguished professor of international affairs and director of the Graduate Institute on International Affairs at Fairleigh Dickinson University. He`s also the author of a new study of Islam called Sufism. Dr. Fatemi, Abdul Khaalis, the man who is leading this raiding party and head quartered in B`nai B`rith, claims that his religion entitles him to avenge the murders of his wife and children. Is that part of the Islamic religion?

Dr. NASROLLAH FATEMI: No, it is directly against the law of Islam. As you know, we have in Arabic two words: the word kafw, which means forgiveness, and intiqam which means revenge. And Mo hammed said there is more pleasure in forgiveness than in revenge. And he said revenge produces nothing but pain; it is forgiveness which gives you pleasure. And under the law of Islam even a king or Mohammed himself would not give orders; a man has to go before a judge, which is called a qadi, under the legal process, and once the judge gives his verdict then that will be carried out by the authorities.

MacNEIL: So in other words, a Muslim is expected to abide by the civil law of the country in which he is living?

FATEMI: Absolutely. Every Muslim, under the law of Islam, has to follow the law of the land in which he lives.

MacNEIL: All right. How could Mr. Khaalis read into the Moslem religion a right to avenge himself?

FATEMI: I am sorry. I have been trying my best. I knew Malcolm X; I have been trying to do my best to learn more about how these kinds of interpretation come, and I haven`t been able to understand it because there`s not such a thing in any country, where a man can take the law into his own hands.

MacNEIL: Can you describe for us how the Moslem religion as practiced in this country by sects like the Black Muslims, or the Nation, as it`s called, and the Hanafis differs from that practice by 700 million people in the rest of the world?

FATEMI: Very much so, because you have almost thirty-two different sects in Islam all over the world, and Hanafi is supposed to be a legal school, not a sect in this case. There are five main schools of law, or legal ones. There are the Hanafis and the Malikis, and the Shafi is, and also you have the Islamic Shi(as.

MacNEIL: When you say "legal" do I interpret you correctly to mean that those are five legitimate ways of interpreting the teachings of Mohammed?

FATEMI: Absolutely. And their only job is the interpretation of law according to Qur`an and Hadith. There`s no other way of declaring something independent from what is in Qur`an or what is the Hadith, the Hadith being the tradition of Mohammed.

MacNEIL: What is the main difference between -- you say there are differences -- the way Islam is practiced here and overseas?

FATEMI: I really can`t understand the tradition of what is so-called the "Black Muslim;" but there are many Pakistanis in this country, there are many Persian -- Iranian -- Muslims in this country, and there are many Arab Muslims in the country, and we all practice according to the way that the tradition of fourteen centuries have come down to us, and that is the tradition of tolerance, understanding and brotherhood of mankind.

MacNEIL: Right. Is an incident like this explainable in any way by reference to the Muslim religion?

FATEMI: No, not at all because the first thing that you find in Islam is the sentence, "In the name of God, the most merciful, the most compassionate..." and that could not be interpreted in any way in violence.

MacNEIL: Let`s have another view of this. Tyree Johnson is a reporter for the Philadelphia Daily News, and he`s been covering the involvement of American minority-people in the Islamic religion since 1973. Tyree, what`s the basic difference between the two sects we`re talking about here, the Black Muslims and the Hanafi?

TYREE JOHNSON: We have to remember first that the Black Muslims are constantly changing under their new leadership of Wallace D. Muhammad. Back in `73, `74 and `75, when Elijah Muhammad was still alive, there was a unique difference between the two sects. One is that the Black Muslims practice a racial separation; there was a distinction between black and white. Whereas in the Hanafi and most of the other orthodox religions all people are either Muslim or not Muslim. There`s no color line. The other major difference was that Elijah Muhammad taught that he was a messenger of Allah, where orthodox Muslims taught that the last messenger was Mohammed himself in the eighth century; and those are the two major differences.

MacNEIL: I see. How did the feud between them start, between the Hanafis and the Black Muslims?

JOHNSON: The best theory that`s been proposed is back in the late sixties or early seventies there was a change that came about within the Nation of Islam. You had a leader, Elijah Muhammad, who was ailing, who was becoming sick; and lot of people believe that he lost the leadership. And in Philadelphia that leadership was dominated by a criminal element where it was almost the black Mafia and the Black Muslims -- they were almost one and the same. And it was pointed to that the top leadership in Mosque Number 12 during `73, `74 and `75 that the top elements -- the Captain of the Fruit and the leaders of that temple -- were also involved in drug pushing, extortion, murder and general mayhem in the black communities in South Philadelphia.

MacNEIL: Khaalis claims that the Black Muslims were responsible for the massacre of his family in Washington in 1973. Did the trial establish that, or is there any evidence on the record of that connection?

JOHNSON: I`m not sure if the trial established that, but anyone who was in Philadelphia who knows the individuals involved knows that Ronald Harvey at one time was the Captain of the Fruit of Islam. He was not a fringe member, he was a top man in the mosque in Philadelphia; and he is reputed to be the leader of that hand than went into Washington in January of `73 and killed the children and the adults in a rather brutal way. That is really the main connection. It was really a feud between the two Muslims. And also the fact that Khaalis had also sent seventy-seven letters to all the Black Muslim ministers denouncing Elijah Muhammad, and this may have sparked it.

MacNEIL: So he was regarded as a heretic by them.

JOHNSON: Yes, and for some reason that can only be explained by the criminality of the mosque at that time in Philadelphia, the men who did the murder were from Philadelphia.

MacNEIL: Those are the ones who`ve been convicted and who Khaalis now wants delivered to him.

JOHNSON: Right.

MacNEIL: How do you as a reporter explain to yourself the phenomenon of these Hanafis who`ve been entirely peaceful, as I understand it, in their record up to now, should burst out with this kind of violence four years after the murder of the family?

JOHNSON: We take religion into account -- you like to live the ideally religious life; but many times a man feels that no justice has been done, and he feels that he has to get revenge. And I can`t understand why it took four years; you would think a man would forget it. But if your wife and four children were killed in a brutal way -- this man`s four children were drowned in bathtubs and sinks, and his wife was shot, and his friends were just executed -- I think that`s kind of hard to forget.

MacNEIL: So you think it`s more just a personal and human thing in the man, rather than any sort of fanatical dictation by the religion.

JOHNSON: Yes

FATEMI: I agree, absolutely.

MacNEIL: Do you have any explanation for this kind of incident, just as an Islamic scholar looking at it from a distance?

FATEMI: I think it is emotional; it is one man`s emotion. Because I don`t see how any good Muslim or any good religious person of any religion should use religion as a means towards achieving an end which is absolutely 100 percent anti the teachings and doctrines and tenets of Islam.

MacNEIL: Knowing the situation as you do, Tyree Johnson -- as Jim said a moment ago, Wallace Muhammad, the son of Elijah, who is now leading the Nation of Islam, or the Black Muslims, has been brought to Washington and he`s offered to intervene -- given the emotions between the two sects, could you imagine him being of any use in intervening?

JOHNSON: I think so. I think the leadership -- the new leadership of Wallace D. Muhammad -- is completely different from that of his father. The Hanafi Muslims had also blamed Wallace for the massacre, but I really don`t see how they could. He`s led the Black Muslims away from his father`s teaching; although he may be saying he`s redefining it, he has led the Black Muslims away and more to Khaalis` belief.

MacNEIL: As you read Mr. Khaalis and his mental set, do you think there`s any appeal that could be made to him, as he`s clearly a very dedicated follower of Islam, any appeal that could be made to him by some prominent international Islamic leader of great repute on religious grounds that might be useful?

FATEMI: I am sure it will have an effect. I wish I could send him a copy-of my book, which shows Islam is the brotherhood of mankind. And Mohammed says, "I have come tonight not to divide," and Mohammed says that "I have come in order to continue the tradition of the prophets of Israel, and also Jesus. And my message is for the whole world, and no Muslim should ever fight against Muslim, no human being should ever fight against another human being." I wish I could get to him and tell him that the real Islam is that he should forgive and come out and use his life in the service of not only the black people in this country but all the mankind throughout the world. I think it will be very effective if the ambassadors and the eminent members of the Muslim community talk to him.

MacNEIL: I believe that in fact the Iranian ambassador has said something very much like that to him today, to be compassionate.

FATEMI: Absolutely.

MacNEIL: What outcome do you, from your experience, believe this could have?

JOHNSON: For one thing I believe those men in Washington are very serious. They will do what they say they will do, and I think that the situation really has to be very careful and people should not miscalculate or think that they`re not going to hurt those people; I really believe that they will.

MacNEIL: I think that`s the way the authorities in Washington, in fact, seem to be handling it at the moment. Let`s get another perspective on this. Jim?

LEHRER: Yes, Robin, the perspective of a national black civil rights leader, the Reverend Jesse Jackson, who is director of the national civil rights group Operation PUSH -- People United to Save Humanity. First, Reverend Jackson, you of course are a religious man, a Southern Baptist preacher. A couple of questions along this line based on what we`ve just heard. First, what special attraction do you feel the Muslim faith has for black Americans?

Rev. JESSE JACKSON: I think as interpreted by the Honorable Elijah Muhammad and to some extent popularized by the late Malcolm X it was based upon extreme racial alienation in the country. The hypocrisy of the white Christian Church contributed mightily to its being popularized, for the basic white Christian Church never rose to the heights of Christ; it stayed within the limits of culture. So we could not only not go to public accommodations and the other privileges that citizens should receive, we also were locked out of the white Church and locked out of the white schools. As a matter of fact, as late as the Plains Baptist Church, of which Jimmy Carter is a member, you see how difficult it is even twelve years after the Public Accommodations Bill.

LEHRER: So it was a social thing, then, rather than a religious thing.

JACKSON: Well, I think it had its religious depth, but its surface appeal was the hypocrisy of the white Christian Church. I think secondly, in the period of real economic alienation and desperation Elijah Muhammad`s appeal of our becoming economically independent and growing our food and selling to each other, and generally saying, "Be proud that there is gold in the ghetto, that you are somebody; and if w e unify, not only will white people have to respect us but the whole world will have to." So his basic notion of self reliance was not as much of a retreat as it was interpreted; it really was, if followed to its logical conclusion, a way to empower black America. So I really think that was its basic appeal.

LEHRER: All right. Do you see this situation that exists here in Washington as a dispute between two religious sects -a holy war, as it`s been called?

JACKSON: Well, perhaps it is some of both. I think that as

I have watched the coverage last night and today no one really deals with the depth of trauma that Brother Khaalis experienced with his wife shot and four children killed. It was at that time that the broader community could have reached out to him. But as opposed to reaching out to him they intensified the alienation and as he expressed understandable rage in a courtroom, they added insult to injury with a $750 fine. So I think that in some sense the society`s lack of tolerance of non-Christian religions and its basic disregard for the trauma of this man has created within him this state of rage and has extended his basic distrust in the society, in the judicial institutions.

LEHRER: But Reverend Jackson -- I`ve heard that today -- but the fact is that the authorities did arrest, apprehend and convict the people who killed the people in the Hanafi mosque and they got the ultimate sentence that they could get under the system, which was life imprisonment. But that`s not enough.

JACKSON: I guess you`re being very rational, and when somebody walks into the house with their wife shot and four children in the bathtub, that is a level of trauma -- I`m not saying that you are suggesting that it is a justification, but even the explanation does not go to the depth of that trauma.

LEHRER: I understand that, but my question is this: is this a situation where society is just incapable of meting out the retribution or the punishment that Khaalis wants, and feels he needs and deserves?

JACKSON: I get the basic feeling that society at one level does not care in particular as much as it ought to care for a case this outstanding and for pain this excruciating. But on the other side, our society is giving a tremendous reward for this form of rebellion. I mean, the news media in the Washington area is not just reporting the news; it is now making news. So the reward for this act is fantastically great -- it is beyond all understandable recognition.

LEHRER: Reward for whom?

JACKSON: The reward for Mr. Khaalis and the men who are holding the hostages. And I think that so long as we experience what we did in Indianapolis a few weeks ago, what happened in Ohio earlier during the week and now the situation in Washington, that the media is contributing to the popularizing of this trend in a certain kind of way.

LEHRER: Let me ask Mr. Johnson in New York. It`s been said today that this whole enterprise that was executed yesterday has actually been in the planning now for two or three years and that Khaalis actually said -- and I saw a clip today where he said -"We are now at war with the Black Muslims," and that was in 1973; and that this was not a spur-of-the-moment thing. What`s your view of that, Mr. Johnson?

JOHNSON: I agree with you 100 percent. I don`t think any newspaper story or lack of newspaper story would have stopped this incident from happening today. I just can`t blame this on journalism.

JACKSON: I guess what I`m really trying to suggest is that we cannot take this particular incident out of the context of the same method that has been used in several other incidents; and in each instance they have gotten the desired results, which is a very high level of recognition.

LEHRER: All right -- desired results. Mr. Johnson, let me ask you, to come back. You said w e all need to keep in mind that these people are serious. Do you agree with what I said at the be ginning of the program, which is that it would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, for the authorities to really deliver those men to Khaalis at the B`nai B`rith building?

JOHNSON: To deliver those men? Yes, I think it would be.

JACKSON: I guess what I`m saying is that I really do agree with what Tyree is saying. Number one, I respect his depth of involvement as a journalist in the matter; but I guess I am really concerned about the extent to which our society, both in terms of military budget and in terms of TV as a pastime has advocated violence at such a level until we fundamentally believe as a nation that might is right rather than right is might, which makes it very difficult for us to hear a prophet Mohammed or a prophet Jesus because fundamentally we are fed a diet of violence that contributes to a certain aggressive rage as a way of resolving problems.

LEHRER: How do you think this thing`s going to turn out, Reverend Jackson?

JACKSON: We can only hope that we do not experience the kind of panic that we experienced at Attica, where the authorities get fed up and in their state of exhaustion just destroy a lot of people; so the first thing I hope is that the panic does not occur. Secondly, I hope that the dialogue remains alive and that to the extent that these men are listening that they receive the impression and actually believe that somebody cares.

LEHRER: We must go. Robin?

MacNEIL: Thanks very much, Reverend Jackson. Good night, Jim. Thank you both, gentlemen, here. Jim Lehrer and I will be back tomorrow night. I`m Robert MacNeil. Goodnight.