The Robert MacNeil Report

or really we keep reading nearly four months ago the president's clemency board ended its work of offering qualified clemency to vietnam war draft dodgers and others today towards final report appeared with no official affirmed for him aaron washington writes the report says its yearlong effort was a success although it can save there's still much more work to be done there were one hundred and thirteen thousand vietnam war desert or subtract evaders eligible under the program according to the war and some twenty one thousand of those

chosen this by one way or another this position of the twenty one thousand broke down this were five thousand were granted presidential pardons seventy five hundred were given various kinds of non military alternative service a nine hundred and eleven were denied clemency for a thousand cases still remaining for a final action mostly awaiting pardons by the president a mild flattened of all by the way with that release of water nine page report the american civil liberties union and others accuse the white house of cinema and they're not only releasing as expected with the familiar white house fanfare white house denies there was any intent to suppress the report and maintains that is available at the government printing office for anyone who wants it it's easy to understand why amnesty may become the political stepchild of the year it raises the sort of moral and emotional questions that can make politicians queasy in election years but this one keeps coming up president ford thought he dealt with it just after he'd pardon

president nixon by setting up a clemency board that made about half the country unhappy the people the opinion polls said disapprove of any amnesty as it turned out it also made the people who want amnesty unhappy because they felt the president didn't go nearly far enough the president who has personally felt that the wounds of vietnam should not be reopened would probably just like the issue forgotten but there are a lot of people were going to keep raising and tonight we hear their arguments gerry conlon was a green beret who refused orders to go to vietnam he was court martialed and sentenced to ten years in prison and he fled the country and his sentence was subsequently refused to yours and the bad conduct discharge you return during the clemency program period but refused to take part with a condom why like most of nearly one million people many amnesty i feel that i was correct in resisting and i'm just american war against legitimate movements or national liberation in indochina and therefore more for the future are going to

accept the government continuing efforts to make us out of the violence in the center in the store and to punish us the program requires loyalty oath and the sign pledges to do up to two years of punitive alternate service of their desires their branded with undesirable or clemency discharges which amounts to a lifetime lessons of job discrimination and for the effects of discrimination and the largest category people need amnesty over a half million veterans with less normal <unk> included in the program as we're tens of tens of thousands of civilians who have criminal records route in protest against the war why do you personally need amnesty you're walking free in this country at the moment you have some gainful employment and you have been arrested what and i have a bad conduct discharge and all bad discharges are subject to all us an honorable

discharges acerbic job discrimination swells other forms of discrimination i actually pro ayotte faces much discrimination as most people with their discharges who come from poor backgrounds are less educated very very rough time ever going a decent job and make a decent living in this country why will they particularly sulfur difficulties why anymore than you are because they suffer difficulties a wave of statistics show now that honorably discharged veterans have about the highest rate of unemployment in the country behind black teenagers and if we put their less than honorable discharge on top of that people are likely to so are you saying that the kinds of employment that those people would see would them would find employers who were more prejudiced against veterans with a less than honorable discharge right those people are likely to work in factories and for large corporations as the corporations and the common practice of checking with the military of people military records in fact

the discharges them i think can be seen very largely as an effort to scream scream future employee or use for the large corporations even honorably discharged veterans have secret codes hundred discharges so if they're unaware of that which the corporations have listed like you do robin with the common core speech of the many people who did not take part in the program but with the unwashed and now is a man who dealt with those who did former senator charles goodell of dr campbell resident climbs aboard the program is now over what you say was a success or i say it was a success because i think you know without question that has helped with jerry only and substantially a very large number of people i wish more had because they did not wish more understood the program and i would distinguish those who were war resisters were coming into the defense department or the justice department probe from the clemency board people are people have already been punished we

got roughly fifteen sixteen percent of the estimated eligible applicants and about half of those received a right parties president united states with no alternative service required that's a very significant benefit to that they get a clemency discharge its long known all that will really be an accepted by employers but our preliminary indications are from the surveys we took that will be accepted the bad conduct by more than a bad conduct and better than a non desirable this year gallup poll indicated that eighty five percent of the american people would accept an individual back equally or better i think that's a very encouraging we're using your own statistics that only fifteen to sixteen percent chose to participate how how could that be a major one that ends up being a

success well let me say that i think the problem with the statistics is that in our program the clemency board most of our people have difficulty understanding they were eligible the border urged the president to extend a proverb i personally wish that congress that would extend from the president kept going and you couldn't presidential plans without congressional approval fifteen percent apply under circumstances where a very large number of thought this was just for the fall as went to canada but that was where it all started at the vfw speech by the president all the publicity was on the guys went to canada where they're going to come back a lot and very few of those who had been through it and receive bad discharges or had been convicted of draft offenses realized that they also were eligible how is it possible to characterize that fifteen percent in terms of the type of people who chose to go through the kremlin's secrecy

do it well you the report that there is a very vocal in this report the statistics without names or any identification through computers with the cooperation of nasa and that i think is a very useful report that should be read carefully and used to perhaps as a takeoff point for any future problems in this area whether it's after another war or follow the progress you can characterize in many ways for instance twenty seven percent of our options to the clemency board served in vietnam we had vietnam heroes who applied in some of those cases that you just cover the waterfront in a lesson about a five or six percent were conscientious their feelings opposition to the war and i must say that where there was any substantial evidence of a conscientious feeling those individuals received an out right

or to program life an amnesty program that is it was prepared to forgive but not forget that war resisters did or the reverend barry land of the united church of christ social action center takes the opposite view is not right reverend leonard terms of this report and say do i don't think that it's possible to call the clemency program even a limited success when you have seven hundred and fifty thousand two million people that need an amnesty in this program only makes a hundred and ten thousand of those eligible and only attracts twenty percent of those as applicants i don't think that that could be considered a final solution or even of very substantial partial solution to the problems of vietnam that didn't you didn't share program specifically council war resisters do not encrypt his opponent than to permanently that now say people that was not we counsel people to avail themselves of all the possible other options and throughout the clemency period there were much better options for men in every condition through

normal judicial on administrative channels and we didn't want to see those people being forced to do what is basically a punitive kind of alternate service i think in a sense the clemency board report fails to explore very seriously the enormous problems that the selective service system is having with its applicants today there are only about twenty eight percent of those persons who were eligible for an alternate service assignment actually working largely for two reasons a number one the president requires that these jobs be noncompetitive jobs and frankly in the united states today when you have twelve and fourteen percent unemployment it's not very easy to find non competitive jobs and secondly the selective service system hasn't been able to convince people that the remedies that they are being offered that is clemency discharges and presidential pardons are really going to help them very much in real life and any more than that

the arctic i don't understand how they could be a worse option than on the president say for the fact of the matter is that most people who are in some kind of legal jeopardy have a much greater chance of going through records of being acquitted or having the jury nullify their offense and actually spending any time in prison actually even before there was a presidential clemency program very few of the people who could afford to go through the courts actually ended up with either a felony conviction or a prison sentence most people have enormous we good legal options outside of the clemency program we're very concerned about be explored many thousands of people in the last i say six months i have now gotten their cases completely resolved and suffer no stigma and are in a legal jeopardy that what the center of the value how do you respond to that that the clemency discharge what doesn't really mean a lot of what you said that there was some uncertainty at this point but there's various surveys

show that might really be of benefit yes there've been some independent surveys done that indicate that employers view much more favorably someone who has the common to discharge anyone who has a bad conduct and substantially more favorably when somebody who has an undesirable discharge american study center i think that set the study that was commissioned by the clemency board still indicated it a white collar employee's fifty four percent admitted that they would in fact discriminate against people with funds interest charges and i don't think that that really shows a very substantial improvement in a man's conditions simply by receiving clemency destroyed but it goes further than just the clemency distract this wasn't a battle of the clemency board thought internally in the administration for several months and we won the president also would issue a pardon when a part of these individuals for all the offenses that led to be a less than honorable discharge president

united states it will have great significance for these individuals you're never going to resolve that argument except in retrospect when we see what the experience has been i would say however that i was very disappointed i recognize that there were options for various individuals perhaps not his fate in the program is reverend moon has indicated our view in the clemency board was we want to have all the advice of all accounts all i could get they refused to let us prefer the applicants to them to get that advice and then you wonder if for people to reverend land's girl went out to the aclu and a whole variety of groups when it under any group that can come forward and actually as people who is that they want to you know well that's simply not that's simply not true that we would not allow you to indiscriminately send out the names and addresses of civil liberties and religious organizations and give you carte blanche to do that we will cancel you that you said no we don't want a bill that was not true we've always explored i explored with every person that

told me his options both in the program and outside the program we talked about the discharge review boards we talked about the fact that people with administrative discharges the vast bulk of your applicants don't need presidential pardons they were never convicted of having committed any offense they never lost a single sole writer single civil liberty they don't need to harden what they need is an honorable discharge that's what's going to get them back into the job market and make their lives really improve or we want to talk about what happens from this point on let's go back to robin that robert you give unconditional amnesty is what many of the people in this movement want and behind the legal questions of this there has always been the question all of the emotional effect on the people who made sacrifices in the warm undoubtedly there are many who would find that a bitter pill to swallow louise wrestling a gold star mother who lost a son in vietnam feels otherwise she's the director of americans for amnesty which is a pro amnesty organization

that has run through one assumes that a lot of mothers who lost sons in vietnam would consider that blanket amnesty for people who refuse to go there would make their sacrifice means why do you know they were so well because i think it's wrong i think that one of the most serious and harmful things that president nixon former president nixon did was to state that to grant amnesty to those who felt they couldn't party called on characters' are defiant the service of those who did serve it very deliberately pitted the people who serve for whatever reasons against the people who felt they could not participate art i believe that that is a myth and i feel in the case of my own son for instance he would have very clearly understood blue by the time he had gone through basic training by the

time he had done on two officer candidate school and went to vietnam he began to understand that the united states where he he believed that the united states' involvement was very wrong in vietnam and he would have very much and his penalty would have been six years in prison if he did not go to vietnam now frankly he didn't have the kind of courage that it took to risk prison sentences or to go into exile and was in a sense easier for him to go to vietnam and to go to prison for six years because of the social pressures ah yes and one young man and i know that is a very you know have a little thank you two other mothers who had the same experience you you haven't do you find that they agree with you would you find a lot to agree with the proposition that before well there is an organization in boston global star parents for amnesty which is pulling the country and it is surprising that now as many gold star parents

and do support amnesty do i think that one of the problems that none of us and and we've all had a very hard time dealing with the fact that it's a possibility that our son's may have died for nothing i personally have had to come to terms with the fact that i see no game for my country from the loss of my own son now someone who is experienced this knows that that is really hard to end my feeling is that somehow parents are unwilling to deal with that and i think that if leaders could save those who served and courage that those who couldn't serve another kind of courage and another kind of patriotism i think that there are ways to help people understand but it does not dishonor their service

might ransom and a lot of courage but that's i think the worst name is that what nixon hello bring about was that the person who was somewhat lost put the blame on the person who didn't go for the fact that they're somewhat lost and that is the worst with the law instead of on the authorities how war can i just as you reviewed your in favor unconditionally let's move on to discuss the various legislative options that are now being put forward that's right on a number of proposals for amnesty have been made one bill is already been reported out by a subcommittee of the house judiciary committee it's known as the kastenmeier bill in congressman robert kastenmeier of wisconsin as with mr mike carson can you spell out the main differences between your bill unconditional amnesty and the president's comments at a program that just now vanish actually my bill is not called an amnesty bill as thoughtful of amnesty does not appear until but he for

all practical purposes provides an amnesty it does require on the part of someone seeking really gentle unconditional amnesty and an action namely the filing of a certificate that war in vietnam and as ever they did because of the opposition to the war chests and they were for example if they avoided that route or they have this debate in order or in fact if they were losers that was because of that that act in of itself would become conclusive entitle them to have the proceedings dropped against them they would not be required to one of the major difference is we would have thought present program ours is a final step we would think is not a passive for everything it provides such such remedy says expansion of records you know

visiting back to the re entry into the united states postal braun might've otherwise connected with this program and indeed the beginning of citizenship competition to us court about va benefits in that we do not provide that we do not we provide as a matter of fact we do not take away the restored the benefits we provide that a person with an undesirable discharge may apply for or a resignation which case a person has no dishonorable discharge for example but not his service having been forgotten he's not entitled to va benefits than it otherwise would on any other they've been called the family he would not know the statement that any protests about what happens on is that subject to prove or i mean is there an adversary action oriented prove that he was opposed to the war or is it just the fact that he signed it could not allow that

he doesn't have to prove that he merely makes the certificate it could be challenged conceivably by the justice department or by the military services that normally would be unlikely for most cases says is a subjective statement by the individual many years we thought about what would the chances do you think your bill as i'm passing this next session of congress or ever well it has a chance of passing in the judiciary committee and i can only take one step at a time where i would say at this point in history it probably cannot become law this year unless and a number of other events that it has a great deal more chance of passing than one condition known as an unconditional absolute and still some of which have been before the subcommittee that i would not challenge sentiment in practically speaking this bill was an effort to try to reach a compromise between really the president's well i

think they're effective clemency program end and they sort of an amnesty that people who are adversely affected by the war like that soon added up a jew could you support the customer bill factories or ice rattling when be very unhappy if you ask you know i opposed the war and i think there were many people that suffered on both those in opposition to the war and then that went into service that says rents and put it so eloquently but to i think just having somebody come in and a sign a certificate that it was for reasons of opposition to the war i would be very very strenuously resisted by those who served in the war by a very large segment of the american public i would be hesitant to have something like that i made available to people it's almost an inducement to like

come in and sign a certificate even though it isn't true when we talk about those who were conscientiously post war on the basis of the statistics that are available to us why that reportedly a clemency board about six or seven percent of our applicants had any involved or not talking about those who were very articulate in opposition to the war and we ought to make it clear most of them didn't go most of those people found ways to avoid going to jail they had all sorts of the counseling services i think go on into each day could stay in school and that was it aspect of our draft system that it's unfair but it's very difficult to be realistic about a system like that doesn't have those there were good reasons why the draft system was written mainly the educated the role of the war and it

was the un educate in the poor that actually had to go to it not most of our applicants were individuals who just had very very serious problems now we had a number of applicants for instance through after they came back from serving again bad discharges and then they had other felony convictions for burglary or breaking an area in this kind of a thing would win make them all eligible regardless it around when i got the dispute the notion that the people who need amnesty the bulk of veterans with less than honorable discharges would not be able and conscience design that's the statement of disapproval of the war now it is true that in every war people deserve but you know more people deserted and the great numbers but they did in vietnam has sparked kastenmeier know it's it's a bill that's infinitely better than the clemency program but i can sing for crunch and support it as the final solution clearly is not there's still people that are omitted mr kastenmeier his bill

and i believe that at this time in history people require honorable discharges are not merely these certificates of resignation which of the congressman throughout the year we have about a minute left they would talk about what about the american people will accept at this point in the pollen three politics the reality of politics where are we analysed the lou harris poll were people were asked to list things of their of their conduct numbered number one concern to the minister fourteen days and nowhere on the list of amnesty or anything like that and what support is there in the country for any kind of well it's a kastenmeier bill or anything other than what we already have most people long consider amnesty a very burning issue in a in a sense it's precisely why the bill certainly like mr kastenmeier is and i think something much broader than that would be accepted by the american people could see only what is that foreigners there is there any evidence that the people accept and then brought in the nearby know i wish there was i think eventually that might be the case but

i don't actually do agree with that yes i agree with that i don't close to the captain marvel being able to pass the house and i respect very much their attempts oh really you're only

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