The MacNeil/Lehrer Report; Dozier Freed

[Tease]

ROBERT MacNEIL [voice-over]: U.S. Army General James Dozier freed today in a daring raid by Italian police after 42 days as a prisoner of the Red Brigades.

[Titles]

MacNEIL: Good evening. Just before 7 o'clock this morning at the White House they woke up President Reagan with the news the administration had almost given up expecting. Brigadier General James Dozier had been freed alive and unharmed. Italian police commandoes, in a meticulously executed raid, had snatched the NATO officer from his Red Brigades' kidnappers in an apartment in Padua. President Reagan said it was a victory for all who believe in the rule of law.Frank Perez, chief of the anti-terrorist section at the State Department, said, "I think this will be a major setback for the Red Brigades." But here at home there was a reminder of how widespread are various forms of terrorism today. The Turkish consul general was shot and killed in downtown Los Angeles. His car was ambushed by gunmen claiming to be Armenian nationalists. Tonight, details of the rescue of General Dozier and what it says about the war against terrorism. Jim?

JIM LEHRER: Robin, in 1978 the Red Brigades kidnapped Aldo Moro, the former prime minister of Italy. After putting him through a so-called "people's trial," they executed him. His body was found later in the back of an abandoned car in Rome. Because of that and other bloody episodes involving the Brigades, it had been a widely held, if unspoken, belief that General Dozier would probably also be killed. It made today's dramatic rescue all the more dramatic. A report on the kidnapping and the rescue now from Charles Hodges of Viznews and Keith Graves of the BBC.

CHARLES HODGES, Viznews reporter: It was six weeks ago that Brigadier General James Dozier was abducted from this apartment in Verona. He was a prize catch for the Red Brigades, who had never before kidnapped a foreigner, let alone a NATO general. The search for Dozier's captors coincided with a period of intense anti-terrorist activity by the Italian authorities. Meanwhile, the publicity-obsessed Red Brigades were busy issuing communiques in which they threatened to subject the General to so-called "proletarian justice" because of his role in NATO and, previously, Vietnam. As had been the case with all other Red Brigades' kidnappings, the search began to appear fruitless, but then, just as criticism of the security forces was mounting, the anti-terrorist unit scored its spectacular success. This is the apartment bloc in Padua where General Dozier was rescued in the early hours of the morning. Members of Italy's anti-terrorist unit had been staking out the building for three days. Their faces are covered in order to avoid possible terrorist reprisals. At dawn, with the area sealed off, they stormed a second-floor apartment. They arrested five men without a single shot being fired, although one of the terrorists was holding a gun to the General's head as the policemen overpowered him. Dozier himself was unharmed and free. Keith Graves of the BBC takes up the story.

KEITH GRAVES, BBC: After talking by phone to his wife, the General left the local police headquarters for a hospital.

POLICE OFFICIAL: Generale, come sta? How are you?

Gen. JAMES DOZIER: Sto bene. [I am fine.]

OFFICIAL: Sta bene? [You're okay?]

Mr. GRAVES: His friends had said he would be a tough nut for the Red Brigades to crack. And if this first appearance was anything to go by, they were right. Outside the police station word of his release had already spread, and local well-wishers had gathered. The medical check that was to follow appeared to be something of a formality. Later tonight will come a very private family reunion. But the U.S. ambassador to Italy was able to shed some light on the General's feelings.

MAXWELL RABB, U.S. ambassador to Italy: I had two telephone conversations with the General. He was in excellent health. Obviously I'm not a doctor; I'm not in a position to pronounce any verdict on actually how he felt, but I can tell you that over the telephone there was a robust tone to his speaking, and there was no question that he was very happy to be out here once again. And he commented on how nice it was to see the sunlight again and to be a part of the world.

Mr. GRAVES: Mrs. Dozier heard of her husband's release in Germany where she had been staying with American military friends and with her daughter, an officer in the Army. She had appealed for people to pray for her husband's safety.

Mrs. DOZIER: We have talked to my husband, and your father [to her daughter], and he sounds marvelous and in good health, and we're looking very much forward to meeting with him as soon as possible, which will be very soon. And I thank you one and all for everything, and please thank the world for all their love and their prayers. It did work and he's home.

LEHRER: We'll get further details now on how Italian authorities found and rescued General Dozier from Italy's ambassador to the United States, Rinaldo Petrignani. Mr. Ambassador, I assume you come tonight representing a very happy government.

Amb. RINALDO PETRIGNANI: Indeed. And let me express to you at the outset of our conversation how really pleased the Italian people, the Italian parliament, the president of the Italian republic and the Italian government were when this very complex rescue operation was successfully concluded this morning. General Dozier is the guest of Italy; he participates to our common defense effort. The feeling of friendship which the Italian people have for America were hurt, deeply hurt when this ruthless act was perpetrated against him. All the more so, therefore, we rejoice to see that General Dozier has been returned to his family, has been returned to his people.

LEHRER: Well, let's go into some of the details, at least details that you can give us on how your police pulled this thing off. First, how did they find out that General Dozier was in fact in that apartment house in Padua?

Amb. PETRIGNANI: Well, Mr. Lehrer, I don't have many more details to give you than what has already been made known. In fact, as you know, a massive manhunt has been conducted over the last weeks.A tireless effort went into this operation. And, finally, I understand that a few days ago the place where he was detained was pinpointed and the police forces -- in fact, the rescue operation was coordinated by Defranceschi and General Bordoni and General Oliva, the first of the Carabinieri and the second of the Guardia Finanza. They decided to act at noon today, taking advantage of the rush hour which would make the concentration of police forces less conspicuous. The place was encircled by military -- paramilitary forces in order to avoid any possibility of escape. When the signal was given, 10 men burst into the apartment, immobilized the terrorists before they could react, and freed General Dozier unharmed and safe. The whole operation was conducted in less than 90 seconds.

LEHRER: Less than 90 seconds! I read somewhere today, Mr. Ambassador, that one of the things the Italian forces did was to bring a bulldozer into the neighborhood to make noise, to cover the sounds --

Amb. PETRIGNANI: Yes, in fact their purpose was to cover up the operations which were going on in order to prevent the terrorists from becoming suspicious that something was going on and perhaps try to escape before they could close the circle.

LEHRER: Did they know that General Dozier was still alive when they went in that building?

Amb. PETRIGNANI: I understand they had reasons to believe that he was still alive, and this is why, in fact, all precautions -- all possible precautions were taken so that this operation could be concluded without any harm being made to General Dozier. As you know, one of the terrorists was holding a gun against General Dozier's head, and that, of course, was a circumstance which added dramatic character to the development of this effort.

LEHRER: There was a report early this morning, I believe it came from Mr. Clark at the White House, that there had been one shot fired, and then later in the day it was said no, that no shots had been fired. Can you clear that up?

Amb. PETRIGNANI: Basing on my knowledge, apparently no shots were fired, but I would not make that categorical statement.

LEHRER: The other report that I read today was, the way the police found out that the General was in this particular apartment was that a captured Red Brigade person, a person who had been captured a couple of weeks ago, told them. In other words, he -- is that correct?

Amb. PETRIGNANI: Well, in fact, as you know, several important successes were scored in the last few days in the struggle against the Red Brigades; several of them were captured and I am certain that important information could be gained from those which were captured. There is one point which I would like to stress emphatically: that there was no tradeoff, no negotiation, no bargaining whatsoever conducted with those criminals.

LEHRER: I realize this is a difficult question, but I'm going to ask it anyhow, Mr. Ambassador. Was it contemplated at all three days ago, say, when they discovered where the General was, to do the megaphone bit: "We know you're there, come out," and try to -- that wasn't even considered, right?

Amb. PETRIGNANI: No. The effort -- every effort was deployed to make this operation as successful as possible, and I rejoice in seeing that now again General Dozier is going to join his family.

LEHRER: Thank you. Robin?

MacNEIL: Since the Reagan administration took office and Alexander Haig became secretary of state, the State Department has paid increased attention to international terrorism. The chairman of the interdepartmental group on terrorism at State is Ambassador Robert Sayre. Mr. Ambassador, Frank Perez, the acting director of the anti-terrorist office at the State Department, said you all had little hope that the General would be rescued. Tell us about what you had come to expect after 42 days.

Amb. ROBERT SAYRE: Well, when you're involved in such an operation -- and I was involved in it from the very day that General Dozier was kidnapped -- we -- at least, I certainly had hope that we would get him back. And we know what the pattern of the Red Brigade has been and the way they have dealt with prisoners they've had. The Italians gave us all kinds of information on this, and we of course have kept our own information. So throughout this whole operation I held the hope that General Dozier would be returned alive, There were reports -- we thought all along that were false -- that his body would be found here or there. Every search by the Italian police disclosed that the report was false. So while we were concerned about General Dozier's welfare throughout, we kept alive the hope that he would be found, that we would be successful.

MacNEIL: Why do you think they kept him alive for so long?

Amb. SAYRE: I think that they were trying to achieve a propaganda advantage. They said what their objectives were. They were aimed at NATO; they were aimed at the Italian government; they were aimed at the United States. They were trying to get as much propaganda advantage out of this episode as they could, and I think they wanted to keep him alive as long as they could in order to get that advantage.

MacNEIL: Has the new tough stance of this administration towards international terrorism changed the tactice that the U.S. government would use in a situation like this?

Amb. SAYRE: Well, we don't talk about tactics publicly because we like to keep the opposition confused as to about what we may do, but I think the determination of the present administration is very strong. We spared no effort whatever. We responded to every single request that the Italian government made. We pursued every lead. We helped in every way we possibly could.So there is a very firm commitment on the part of the United States government to deal with these kinds of problems.

MacNEIL: You just heard the Ambassador say emphatically that no deals, no negotiations were made with these people. Is that the new stance of the Reagan administration in cases like this, that there will be no bargaining and no treating with these terrorists in cases like this?

Amb. SAYRE: The strong position of the Reagan administration is that we do not intend to do anything that will let the terrorists achieve their objectives. Now, what you do to prevent them from achieving their objectives is a matter of tactics as you deal with the specific problem. But our end and firm objective is we are not going to give in to blackmail, and we are not going to permit them to achieve their objective.

MacNEIL: I see. Finally, I read that State and Defense both sent experts on electronic eavesdropping to assist the Italian authorities.What part did the U.S. experts play in this successful release?

Amb. SAYRE: We provided all of the available technical advice that the Italian government asked for as fast as we possibly could, but I don't think it's appropriate to discuss what we did, nor what the Italian government did, because we do not think that this is the end of this kind of problem, and we don't plan to tell our opposition the tactics and methods we're going to deal with this problem.

MacNEIL: Well, thank you. Jim?

LEHRER: For a further look now at the Red Brigades specifically and international terrorism generally we go to Robert Kupperman, executive director of the Georgetown University Center for Strategic and International Studies. He is the co-author of a recent book on this subject called Terrorism: Threat, Reality, Response. First, Mr. Kupperman, in general terms, who are these people who call themselves the Red Brigades?

ROBERT KUPPERMAN: Well, I think that you have to look at them as a group that's well to the left of even the Communist Party of Italy. And I think that they're -- I guess even a simple way of looking at it is a kind of geometric figure -- a pyramid. And at the top of the pyramid there are several hundred shooters and below that there is a substantial political and actively violent substructure that becomes the -- represents the resilient base of the Red Brigades. Thus -- well, and I must mention here as an important point, that I am deeply proud of Italy in terms of what they have done. But it's not the end of the Red Brigades. They have a setback. I assure you that the problems will persist.

LEHRER: Persist in what way? There is speculation -- and would ask you to speculate -- that the Red Brigades as a result of what happened today, they will -- they're either broken and they've had it, or that they will move quickly now out of embarrassment and out of anger to do something else very dramatic and very tragic. Can you speculate? What's your -- based on your experience, what do you think is going to happen?

Prof. KUPPERMAN: My view is neither. Let me answer it. I think that they're going to have a problem in terms of regrouping. They're clearly facile; they can adapt. For example, right after the Aldo Moro event they attempted to knock out the electricity of Rome. They were amateurish about it and didn't succeed, fortunately. I think that they will regroup. I think that they will adapt. I think that they will become immensely more audacious.But I think that that will be four or five months off at a minimum.

LEHRER: Did the fact that they kidnapped an American general signify a major change in strategy for them, and if so, why did they do it?

Prof. KUPPERMAN: Well, obviously, I can't say why they did it.

LEHRER: Sure.

Prof. KUPPERMAN: But let me speculate.

LEHRER: All these questions are impossible, I realize it, Mr. Kupperman, but I'm going to ask them anyhow.

Prof. KUPPERMAN: I'll deny [unintelligible].

LEHRER: Okay. All right.

Prof. KUPPERMAN: I think that the point is that they have -- it's just been a staccato of assassinations and kidnappings and just horrible things that have gone on in Italy for quite some time. In a way, even the Italian government, which I have consulted for on the subject, have become inured in part to the staccato of events. They were not making dramatic strides though they have adapted technologically; though they have, for example, made several attempts against electrical power systems; though surface-to-air rockets have been found in the past.I believe that there may in fact be some relationship, whether it's implicit or direct, between, for example, the actions by the Red Army Faction months ago and its attempt to kill General Crozen and the Dozier affair, simply on the grounds that NATO is now the strategic -- the main target, and hence, the United States. And I predict for you the theater nuclear force modernization will be a rallying cry of terrorists seeking to use the media -- the access of the media to exploit the growing neutralism in Europe.

LEHRER: What are the ties of the Red Brigades to other terrorism organizations that are provable?

Prof. KUPPERMAN: Well, let me first of all tell you that there is no simplistic, master conspiracy operated from some dingy office of the KGB. The fact is that there has been a great deal of support given a variety of terrorist groups by the Soviets either directly or indirectly through other proxies -- for example, Libya; for example, Czechoslovakia. But there has never been a smoking gun found where you can prove that the Kgb/ actually engineered a given event. Whether they have or have not, I don't know. Clearly, the attempt on the Pope's life is maybe the major case of concern in this sense. We know that there are substantial relationships between other countries and the Red Brigades, between the Red Army Faction and the Red Brigades, between Libya and various Palestinian organizations including, for example, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine. For example, I only point to the fact that Ambassador Maxwell Rabb not very long ago was shuttled out of Rome very quickly when the Italians, adroitly and cleverly, found that there was a pending plot -- an active plot to kill him.

LEHRER: All right. Thank you. Robin?

MacNEIL: Ambassador Petrignani, does your government agree with Professor Kupperman that there is likely to be a lot more audacious activity following this by the Red Brigades and that they will recoup? That they are not defeated?

Amb. PETRIGNANI: Well, we have listened with great interest to the varying foreign views given by Professor Kupperman. I would not be in a position to express any firm official view of the Italian government on what can be expected in the future. I would say, nevertheless, that I would consider this episode a major setback for the Red Brigades. It was a breakthrough. Obviously it's not -- and there I agree entirely with what Professor Kupperman had to say -- this is unfortunately not the end of the story. We will need many more successes before we will come to that point. But one point is clear, and I would like to emphasize this, also in reference to what Professor Kupperman said: that the Red Brigades are politically isolated in Italy. They have lost the battle to win the mind of the workers and students. The whole spectrum of political forces in Italy has repudiated them. So I would assume that they would still be dangerous, that they certainly will continue to -- as Professor Kupperman said -- regroup, but I have the moral certitude that they will not achieve their result, which is that of breaking down Italian democracy and destabilizing Italy. They will not.

MacNEIL: Does the U.S. government share that view, Ambassador Sayre?

Amb. SAYRE: Well, the Red Brigade has received a very severe blow. The Italian police, the Italian government, has in the last 45 days captured about 50 of them, and they've captured a considerable amount of arms and other equipment that they had. But as Professor Kupperman says, the group is much larger than that. I think I find myself in general agreement with what the other two here have said, that while the Red Brigade has suffered a severe blow in Italy in the last 45 days, it's still there, and we do face the possibility -- not in six months, but maybe even before that -- that they will strike out in some violent way to recoup the situation.

MacNEIL: Professor Kupperman, do you see a new pattern in the Red Brigades' behavior?

Prof. KUPPERMAN: Well, I think in the sense that they're now beginning to choose non-Italian targets per se. The choice of General Dozier certainly was a deep embarrassment at the time to the host country, namely the government of Italy. At the same time, it was an attack on the United States and it was an attack upon the NATO alliance. It was symbolic, clearly. On the other hand, I must tell you something: that were the Red Brigades' timing better, and Poland not to have arisen at this time, and the Golan Heights issue, it may have sparked much greater renown, if not a massive amount of media interest.

MacNEIL: What do you mean by that?That it got buried, you mean, by the other stories? And what is the significance of that to you?

Prof. KUPPERMAN: Well, I think what I'm saying is that terrorism generally -- not just Red Brigade activities -- is a media event. It's a show.And it's the attempt to embarrass -- to make appear impotent -- a large nation, whether it be Italy, whether it be the United States, or institutionally, the Western alliance, the NATO alliance. If Poland were not the headline issue at the time that Dozier was kidnapped, the risk of a much larger media circus, as we have seen before, would have been substantial.

MacNEIL: Ambassador Sayre, does the U.S. government and the intergovernmental, interdepartmental task force -- committee that you chair -- does it feel that the United States and other NATO countries can adequately secure their officials -- diplomatic or military -- now against this kind of terrorism?

Amb. SAYRE: We think we have the capability to provide adequate protection to our people, and we are strengthening the protection that we provide them. The American armed forces in Europe are doing the same thing. The security of American diplomatic missions has been improved over the last several years, and there are going to be more improvements in it. So that we believe we have a reasonable capability to protect our people, yes.

MacNEIL: Does it mean that diplomats and military officials and civilian officials working abroad for the United States are just not any longer going to be able to live the kinds of lives that they have been living? I mean, for instance, these terrorists got General Dozier in his apartment.

Amb. SAYRE: Well, there are obviously risks. There have always been risks in the diplomatic life. There have always been risks in the military life. That risk has been considerably increased, and I think it does mean that we are going to have to modify the way we live and the way we do things. But I think those modifications are going to be drastic, and I think that we'll be able to cope with the situation and live with it.

MacNEIL: Ambassador Petrignani, does the Italian government feel that it can adequately protect guests like General Dozier now?

Amb. PETRIGNANI: Well, my answer is that the Italian government will do all that they can to insure all possible protections to those who are in Italy serving their country in our common cause for the common defense and security of the Atlantic alliance.

MacNEIL: Professor Kupperman, very briefly, can governments effectively counter this kind of thing -- prevent it from happening?

Prof. KUPPERMAN: No. I don't think they can prevent it from happening. I think we can learn to cope with it. I think as large nations we can learn to decouple our institutional values, our concerns, our fears as a whole nation from that of an isolated set of small -- relatively small attacks when, you know, viewed in any proportionate military terms.

MacNEIL: I see. Well, thank you and Ambassador Petrignani and Ambassador Sayre for joining us this evening. Good night, Jim.

LEHRER: Good night, robin.

MacNEIL: That's all for tonight. We will be back tomorrow night. I'm Robert MacNeil. Good night.