The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour

Intro

ROBERT MacNEIL: Good evening. The TWA hijack crisis dominates the day's news headlines. The 30 remaining hostages have been removed from the plane and taken to a secret place in Beirut. Lebanon Shiite leaders said they will be safe but will not be released until Israel frees 700 Shiite prisoners. The U.S. said it will not ask Israel to release them and won't make concessions to the terrorists. Jim Lehrer is away tonight; Judy Woodruff is in Washington. Judy?

JUDY WOODRUFF: The NewsHour's entire focus tonight is on the continuing American hostage crisis. After a summary of the day's events, a Shiite Moslem in this country and a journalist writing about the Shiites join us to explain what's behind the hijacking and to assess what the prospects are for its outcome. Then two former State Department officials discuss what the options are for the United States. A Carter administration official in the middle of the Iranian hostage crisis tells if there are any lessons in that for now and, finally, a report from correspondent Elizabeth Brackett on one Illinois town's vigil for hijack victims.News Summary

MacNEIL: The TWA hijacking has now entered its fourth day, and this is the situation. Some 30 passengers have been removed from the plane and are prisoners of the Shiite Muslims somewhere in Beirut. Three TWA crew members remain aboard the jet at Beirut airport. According to a TWA flight attendant, seven other passengers with Jewish-sounding names were removed earlier and are still in custody. Here is a report from Alistair Clark of Visnews.

ALISTAIR CLARK (Visnews) [voice-over]: The fourth day in the saga of Flight 847 began with the airliner still sitting on the tarmac at Beirut airport after its third landing there. As the world watched there was intermittent activity around the Boeing 727, but no indication that any real progress had been made or that the 30 or so passengers still held were any closer to being released. Negotiations proceeded. It came as a complete surprise when it was announced that the remaining hostages had been taken from the aircraft. One of the hijackers made an appearance in the cockpit of the airliner and others are still thought to be aboard. It's believed that the hostages were removed from the plane in response to fears of a military raid to free the passengers. There have been varying reports of Israeli and American military movements in the region. The Amal militiamen were clearly taking such a threat seriously. They were out in force and took up positions at key points. Overnight they'd sent up flares to maintain a good field of vision, and regular shelling was clearly intended to deter anyone who might try to stage a rescue, a warning that the Amal men were waiting for them. Despite the pessimism and fears, there have been cheering moments in the drama. One elderly American, freed becuse of his bad health, could still manage some brave words.

ROBERT PEEL, released hostage: I'm very concerned.

REPORTER: Where are you going now?

Mr. PEEL: I don't know. Anywhere that ticket tells me. Cyprus, he says.

REPORTER: Good luck.

Mr. PEEL: May you have peace in your country.

MacNEIL: Nabih Berri, the Lebanese minister of justice and leader of the Amal movement of Shiite Muslims, told a news conference the hostages would be safe unless the hijackers fail to get what they are asking for, the release of more than 700 Shiites being held in Israel.

NABIH BERRI, Amal Leader: I think all the passenger, they are safe. No problem about that. And the question now up to the American, how the American policy and they try to work, because this demand, coming from those people who take those hostage, it is not something to do under pressure, like what the Israeli or the American tried to said.

REPORTER: You said that if the Israelis don't release Arab prisoners, then the hostages will die. That was the original threat, wasn't it? Does that still stand?

Mr. BERRI: Well, if the Israelis didn't release the others I will cut my hand off and I will said to the kidnapper, okay, our condition is finished. It's not your fault. Now you can take the people and you do what you want. Maybe they will travel again, I don't know.

REPORTER: And maybe they will kill them.

Mr. BERRI: Well, I hope not, but I have to be under the condition. They have my condition with the hijack. I have to be like that. If they don't accept with me, you see, it is not my fault.

WOODRUFF: The Reagan administration responded to the hijacking developments today by identifying Shiite Moslem leader Berri as the one with the power to end the crisis. On directions from the President, White House National Security Adviser Robert McFarlane caleld Berri this morning to tell him he has in his hands the ability to win the release of the hostages. And the administration continued to insist that it will not ask Israel to release the Shiite Moslem prisoners, as the hijackers are demanding. President Reagan refused any comment other than this when reporters shouted at him after a ceremony in the Rose Garden.

Pres. RONALD REAGAN: We're doing everything that can be done, and I have no further comments that I'm going to make at this time.

REPORTER: Are you going to help the Israelis free those prisoners they hold, sir?

Pres. REAGAN: I'm not going to comment on anything other than to tell you we're doing everything that can be done.

REPORTER: Do they think the hostages are off the plane, sir?

REPORTER: Are they safer now that they're off the plane?

Pres. REAGAN: I'm not going to comment.

WOODRUFF: The only administration official who did speak for TV cameras was State Department spokesman Bernard Kalb.

BERNARD KALB, State Department spokesman: Hijacking and other forms of terrorism are unacceptable in any civilized society. We call upon those holding hostages to treat them properly and to release them immediately. The United States government is heavily engaged in efforts to bring about their safe return to their families. In pursuing these efforts, as is well known, we will not make deals with terrorists, and will not encourage others to do so.

WOODRUFF: If it was any consolation to Reagan officials, one of former President Carter's top advisors, who was in the middle of the Iranian hostage crisis, had some supportive words today. Former White House national security assistant Zbigniew Brzezinski told reporters he didn't want to second-guess President Reagan.

ZBIGNIEW BRZEZINSKI, former National Security Adviser: Obviously it's in the interest of all to resolve this issue rapidly and not to let it fester. That's certainly one of the lessons of the Iranian hostage crisis. But that does mean that one approaches negotiations seriously and in a genuine spirit. It does not mean that one begins at this stage to bluster or to threaten, and I think the administration has kept the proper balance, has been appropriately reticent and is doing the right thing.

WOODRUFF: The identity of the American serviceman killed earlier in the hostage crisis was finally made public today. The body thrown off the plane by the hostages -- or rather, the captors, in Beirut Friday night was identified as that of Robert Stethem, a 24-year-old Navy frogman from Waldorf, Maryland. Stethem was a member of the Naval Seal Program and was eight months short of completing his four-year Navy tour. He was identified through fingerprints, medical records and the identification of friends.

MacNEIL: Groups of Americans from the hijacked plane released in batches during its enforced shuttling between Algiers and Beirut have been arriving back in the United States and telling their stories. This was the reaction of one who arrived at Boston's Logan airport this afternoon.

PAMELA RICE, Middletown, RI: I think the passengers and crew members helped us all keep our spirits up. They were marvelous, they did everything they could to keep us calm, and everyone tried to smile at one another, tried to keep us -- maybe grabbed each other's hand and pat it and tried to say it would be all right. And they -- we all worked together as a team. Between the crew and the passengers, they were wonderful.

REPORTER: What's in your heart for the people who are still there?

Ms. RICE: I'm very concerned for the people who are still there. But the terrorists, I believe, might let them go. I don't believe -- they said they didn't really want to hurt or kill anyone, and I just hope and pray that they don't.

WOODRUFF: Most of the NewsHour tonight will be devoted to the continuing hostage crisis in Beirut, but here's a quick look at a few other happenings in the world today. In Washington President Reagan appointed a high-level commission to investigate waste in the Pentagon. The group, headed by former Pentagon official David Packard, will report to the President next March.

At Cape Canaveral, Florida, the space shuttle Discovery made its 18th successful launch into orbit this morning.

NASA OFFICIAL: Five, four, three, two, one. We have booster ignition and liftoff.

WOODRUFF: At exactly 7:33, Discovery blasted off its launchpad with five American astronauts, a French test pilot and a Saudi Arabian prince on board. The mission is due to last seven days and will include a Star Wars-type laser test as well as a hunt for a so-called black hole in space.

In other news, the older brother of the alleged mastermind of a Soviet spy ring was indicted today. Arthur Walker, brother of John Walker, was indicted by a grand jury in Norfolk, Virginia, on seven espionage counts, charging he passed classified Navy documents to the Soviets.

In the business world the Burroughs Corporation is calling off its plans to merge with the Sperry Corporation. The two computer makers reportedly failed to agree on combining their technology and marketing.

And prices may be dropping in the world's oil market. Mexico announced today that it is cutting the price of some of its crude oil by a dollar and half a barrel, to $24. And Saudi Arabia's oil minister said that unless OPEC members start complying with OPEC's price and production limits, oil prices could drop below $20 a barrel, the lowest they've been in six years. Flight 847: Shiite Hijackers

MacNEIL: For the rest of our program tonight we focus on different elements of the continuing drama of the kidnapped passengers and crew on the TWA jetliner hijacked Friday as it left Athens. We begin with a look at the Shiite Muslims, who hijacked the plane and are holding its passengers and crew in Beirut. Robin Wright spent four years in Lebanon as the Beirut correspondent for the London Sunday Times. She is the author of a soon-to-be-published book on Shiites in Lebanon, Sacred Rage. She has conducted long interviews with Nabih Berri and other Shiite leaders. She is joined by Fouad Ajami, a Shiite Muslim from southern Lebanon. He is now director of Middle Eastern studies at the Johns Hopkins University School of Advanced International Studies.

Mr. Ajami, starting with you, should the United States be relieved that Nabih Berri has emerged as a key player in this?

FOUAD Mr. AJAMI: Well, the U.S. can't be relieved so long as American hostages are in Lebanon. Lebanon is a nightmare, Lebanon is a quicksand, and it's a very treacherous country. However, in that situation, in that anarchy called Lebanon, the fact Nabih Berri has control of most of the hostages is good news for the U.S. Nabih Berri is a lawyer. Nabih Berri is the minister of justice in the Lebanese cabinet, for whatever that's worth. Nabih Berri is a man committed to the resolution of this crisis. He's a politician in the middle of a crisis that I don't think he chose. He would like to bring it [to] a quick resolution and a peaceful resolution.

MacNEIL: But we've just heard him now associate himself with the demands of the hijackers and said that if they were not met he would cut off his own hand.

Mr. AJAMI: Right.

MacNEIL: That is metaphorical language for what?

Mr. AJAMI: Nabih Berri has said that he does not condone the methods of these hijackers. He has said we don't really want this. This is not what the Shia should be doing. However, Nabih Berri, you must understand, has a political problem. He faces a very militant Shia community. He faces a situation where the Palestinians secured the release of 1,100 Palestinians. Many of them are hard core murderers, and the pardon of these murderers, and now he cannot do any less for his own people. He must associate himself with the goals of the hijackers, even as he condemns their methods. And he has said, "I don't approve of what you've done; however, I will step in, I will negotiate for you and I will try to secure the release of the 700 Shia men held in Israel."

MacNEIL: Now, one thing. You've been talking to Berri's office today in Beirut. Is it at all possible that those hostages are still on-board the plane? People at Beirut airport continue to say they are, Lebanese officials there. One insisted today that he took chicken lunches to all of them. Now, is it possible that they really are still aboard that plane?

Mr. AJAMI: Well, I don't know what the menu of the hostages is, but I can tell you what we were told from the control tower and from a cleric named Shehassan al-Massre, who is very active in Amal. He said, in effect, that these men, the hostages, were taken from the airplane. They were taken to West Beirut, to a building in West Beirut with their hijackers, that the hijackers are with them inside a building surrounded by Amal militiamen of Nabih Berri. That's what we are --

MacNEIL: So you don't think this is a bluff just to discourage any possible military rescue attempt?

Mr. AJAMI: I wouldn't want to second-guess that. I can't say for sure.

MacNEIL: Robin Wright, do you think that Nabih Berri is in a position to bring about a settlement, to get these hostages released?

ROBIN WRIGHT: I think that's definitely not clear. Nabih Berri has two sides. First of all, he has been -- has had very good relations with the United States in the past and has a pattern of cooperating with various U.S. efforts. He also is a green card holder, which would eventually qualify him for U.S. citizenship. His ex-wife and his children live in Dearborn, Michigan. On the other side, as Professor Ajami pointed out, he has a very militant following, and in fact there are growing indications that a lot of his followers disagree with his policies. Indeed, the head of the military wing of Amal hijacked six planes between 1979 and 1982. That is not the kind of credential of someone you want negotiating for the release of hostages.

MacNEIL: Would you agree with Mr. Ajami that Berri's motive in this is to catch up, as it were, for the Shiites with the Palestinians who secured the release of all the prisoners the Israelis held?

Ms. WRIGHT: I'm not sure there's all that much of a relation between the two. I suspect that Berri was forced into this position and has no alternative but to try to gain points both with the United States and within the Arab community, particularly the Shia community in Lebanon.

MacNEIL: Some of the passengers released have talked about the hijackers running up and down the plane shouting about the battleship New Jersey shelling the land when the American Marines were still in Lebanon. Now, what connection could that have with this, and would that be a motive for this hijacking?

Mr. AJAMI: Well, we know some things. I mean, the hijackers have said many things. They have talked about New Jersey. They have also talked about March, 1985 bombing in a Shia slum in Beirut which was connected with the CIA. They have complained about this. They have said this is a retaliation for the American involvement in that bombing, which took 80 Shia lives. They've also said the Khomeini discourse, the Khomeini flavor, you know, America being the great Satan, that wherever you find poverty, America is responsible, wherever you find oppression America is responsible. So they have a general list of grievances against the U.S., and then these particular things like you're talking about, the New Jersey, and then this episode of the bombing in March '85. So it's a general list of grievances against the U.S., which is a very fundamentalist list of grievances and a particular set of concerns.

MacNEIL: Can you identify which faction of the Amal or the Shiites are the hijackers? Ms. Wright, can you?

Ms. WRIGHT: No, I think one of the things we've learned from this experience is just how diverse the Shiite community in Lebanon is. You have the mainstream Amal movement, you have the radical parties such as Islamic Jihad and Hisboullah, or the Party of God, and it looks as if these people are an independent cell, totally separate from the other organizations. And one of the long suspicions about the Shiite situation in Lebanon is that there are many, many groups -- dozens, maybe even hundreds -- running around, and a lot of them take their own initiative in following through on whether it's hijackings, kidnappings of American civilians or bombing of U.S. installations.

MacNEIL: Would you agree with that?

Mr. AJAMI: Yes, I agree because in effect we are trying to put names and addresses on a very diffuse phenomenon. I mean, the Shia slums today in Beirut are breeding grounds for all kinds of things, for money or for belief; it's not very difficult to find a number of young men who will go out and do this particular deed. Remember also, a lot of these hijackers, we are told, are men in their early 20s. Lebanon has been at war for 10, 11 years. These are young men who have known no other way of life. Hijacking airplanes, killing people, being killed and so on is Lebanon's way of life.

MacNEIL: How long would you expect -- would you expect this to be something resolved quickly, Ms. Wright, or something that could go on for a very long time?

Ms. WRIGHT: Well, I have fears that if the hostages really were removed from the plane that this could go on for a very long time, and they may disperse the hostages into different groups so that, again, you don't have one single target on the ground. And that they might then get involved in stages of negotiations and stages of release that could get on into days or weeks. I think one of the things we ought to point out is that, while Nabih Berri does have some influence, the fact of the matter is that he has not been able to help in the detentions or kidnappings of Americans over the past year. There are seven now being held by various radical groups and, while the Americans have been in contact with him almost on a daily basis about the fate of these people, no progress has been made at all in their release.

MacNEIL: So he may not have control over the situation?

Mr. AJAMI: No, he may not. And also the situation may drag on for yet another reason. Remember, Lebanon has been -- Lebanon is no longer a world concern. It's no longer an American concern. This is one way that Lebanon could again be put before the world as a world issue. "Come and care about us because we have become the breeding grounds for terrorism."

MacNEIL: Well, thank you. We'll come back. Judy? Flight 847: U.S. Response Trapped?

WOODRUFF: We turn now to the options or lack of options available to Reagan administration policymakers. Yesterday the President warned the hijackers to release the hostages for their own safety. Since then, as we have reported, the hostages have apparently been taken off the plane and moved into Beirut. For more on the dilemma facing U.S. policymakers, we turn to two former State Department officials: Lawrence Eagleburger, who retired last year from the department's number-three job, undersecretary of state for political affairs. He is now president of the consulting firm, Kissinger Associates. He is joined by Talcott Seelye, who served as a special U.S. envoy to Lebanon in 1976 and as ambassador to Syria from 1978 to '81.

Mr. Eagleburger, let me begin with you. Is the administration responding the right way now?

LAWRENCE EAGLEBURGER: Oh, I think for the moment certainly so. I think they have to be cautious, I think they have to be careful what they say. So in terms of dealing with this particular incident, I think the administration is doing about as well as it can.

WOODRUFF: There has been a lot of talk, as you know, about a military option. Do you think they should be giving more serious consideration to some sort of military response?

Mr. EAGLEBURGER: Well, again, it depends on what you're talking about. If you're talking about taking military action to free the hostages, I think if there ever was a time, that time has long since passed. I myself believe that it is time, and in fact long since time, for the United States government to announce that as a policy, we will retaliate for these kinds of attacks, whether it be state-sponsored terrorism or terrorism of this sort, and that the time and the place for that response will be of our choosing. And then we should shut up on the subject, but we should in fact respond in each case, as we decide we wish to respond. But there should be a military response.

WOODRUFF: After it's over, you're saying?

Mr. EAGLEBURGER: Yes, certainly not, for instance in this case, now.

WOODRUFF: Mr. Seelye, do you agree there should be a response when this is over?

TALCOTT SEELYE: Well, I have the greatest admiration for my former colleague in the State Department, Larry Eagleburger, but in this case I don't agree. I think that basically the use of military force by the United States is not going to eliminate terrorism in the absence, in the absence of addressing the underlying grievances. I think on the contrary our use of force against terrorists is going to result in an escalation of terrorism. And I can cite two recent examples of that, the Israeli experience and the American experience in Lebanon.

WOODRUFF: And you're speaking even as retaliation. We're not talking here about taking military action to rescue the hostages?

Mr. SEELYE: No, I'm talking about retaliation. I'm talking about retaliation at some point against terrorist groups. We saw what has happened in Lebanon when the Israelis were faced by increasing harassment in southern Lebanon. They then engaged in a policy called an iron fist policy in which they went in with considerable force into villages and demolished buildings, killed a great number of people. What was the result? The result was more suicide bombings of Israeli buildings, officials, more Israelis killed, and it eventually led to a process of an accelerated Israeli withdrawal. On the American side, of course, we have that very tragic case of the bombing of the Marine barracks in October, 1983, which resulted from the U.S. military involvement in Lebanon.

WOODRUFF: So your point is that?

Mr. SEELYE: My point is that more use of force by us in the absence of addressing the basic underlying grievances, is only going to create more terrorism and more cycle of violence.

WOODRUFF: How do you respond to that, Mr. Eagleburger?

Mr. EAGLEBURGER: Well, again, I have great respect also for Talcott, but I disagree with him completely. I think there are several points to be made, the first of which is the United States cannot be responsible for every sparrow that falls from the sky. To address the underlying grievances, for example in Lebanon, which is a situation in which the Lebanese can't even solve their problems, to ask us to solve them is, I think, going a bit far. If the important -- if the point is to change our general policy with regard to Israel, to be more balanced with regard to the Arabs, we have a foreign policy which is the product of a democracy. I happen to think it's also the right foreign policy. But you cannot begin to adjust your foreign policy on the basis of whether people murder your citizens or not, which leads me, I think, to my last point. I don't argue at this point that military response will necessarily end terrorism. I think it will not, in fact. But the fact that you put people in prison because they commit murder does not mean that you end murder. But it does mean that you respond, that people recognize that there is a cost to doing what they do, and it is darn well about time that people in the Middle East, these terrorists, understood that taking on the United States like this is not free. What we have seen with this TWA hijacking, I am afraid, is just the beginning of a general addressal of the problem of dealing with American airlines, and I think we need to make it clear that those attacks simply are not free.

WOODRUFF: Mr. Seelye, do you want to come back?

Mr. SEELYE: Well, I think Larry has ignored my point, which is the underlying grievances. We are not addressing adequately these underlying grievances. Let's take a look at terrorism in the Middle East recently. Let's take a look at Palestinian terrorism that occurred in the 1970s. Why did it occur? It occurred because the Palestinians felt that their political rights were not being adequately recognized. As a result of the hijackings, which unfortunately were reprehensible, they did put themselves on the political map and, as a result of that, the world now recognizes, including the United States, that Palestinians have legitimate political rights. Since that time, their terrorism has virtually abated.

WOODRUFF: So you're equating what is happening now to what happened with the Palestinians? Is that right?

Mr. SEELYE: No, I mean, that's just an example. Now, you go back to the 1940s, where you had a movement for independence by the Jewish community in Palestine, and you had a situation where terrorism was used in order to achieve the objective of an independent Jewish state. That succeeded. Israel was created. But those terrorists, once they achieved their objectives, became responsible citizens and because their grievances had been met. My point is, if we address these grievances adequately and meet them, then terrorism will diminish to a great extent.

WOODRUFF: Mr. Eagleburger, to what extent did the United States bring all this on itself?

Mr. EAGLEBURGER: This particular act?

WOODRUFF: Yes.

Mr. EAGLEBURGER: Or the general problem? Well, I think in this particular act or the general problem I don't think we've brought it on ourselves. And this nonsense about some bomb blowing up and killing some Shiites and the nonsense about the battleship New Jersey ignores the fact that we also lost 250 Marines and had our embassy bombed and are constantly a target of attacks. You know, to begin to try to sort out what is the immediate cause and what isn't, I think we have a longer list of grievances than in fact do the Shiites who are now killing our people.

WOODRUFF: I'm curious about -- you say you recommend retaliation and yet that has not been in every instance the policy of the administration which you were part of before now.

Mr. EAGLEBURGER: It certainly hasn't been, but I think it's about time that it got to be the policy.

WOODRUFF: All right. How reliable -- just one more question, Mr. Seelye. how reliable, would you say, from the American point of view, Mr. Berri is as a negotiator?

Mr. SEELYE: Well, I agree with the comments made so far. I think he's the best negotiator that is available from within the Shiite group. He is a moderate, as Fouad Ajami was saying, and he's the best that we can hope for. I'd just like to make a comment about the grievances that I referred to. One grievance, of course, is the Shiite grievance in Lebanon, the fact they're a disadvantaged group; the fact that they have been uprooted and displaced, first by Palestinians, then by Israelis; the fact that the United States, unfortunately, is ignoring Lebanon to a great extent. We used to be involved. I think there's a role we can play to give the Shiites a fair representation in the government. I think if that aspect were addressed, that is, give them a feeling of belonging in the government, that in itself would be a plus.

WOODRUFF: Mr. Seelye, Mr. Eagleburger, stay with us. Robin?

MacNEIL: Fouad Ajami, what do you say to what Mr. Seelye has just said, that if the United States would, in effect, recognize the Shiites more this kind of trouble would go away?

Mr. AJAMI: Well, I am geographically between these two gladiators. I happen to see some of each of their points. In large measure the Shia problem in Lebanon is a Lebanese problem. The Shia problem in the Arab world, the fight between the Shia stepchildren of the Arab world, the disinherited Shia, the peasants, the shantytown dwellers, and then the Sunni power and Sunni wealth in the Arab world, that's an Arab fight. That's 1,300 years old. That's many, many centuries before even the U.S. came into existence. So partly this is an Arab dilemma, an Arab fight. I am sorry to see that this Arab dilemma is being played out against Americans. This is the tragedy of this particular fight. However, we could do -- probably, as an American power, as a great power, we could do something for the Lebanese situation. We haven't done it. We haven't been a positive contributor. What we did do, the U.S. did go into Lebanon, it took sides; it took sides with the Maronite groups in Lebanon. It took sides with 20 of the population against the majority of the country, and we have -- in a way we have been reaping the whirlwindof that policy.

MacNEIL: Robin Wright, would the United States prevent this kind of terrorism if it were to retaliate militarily, as Mr. Eagleburger suggested?

Ms. WRIGHT: I think quite the contrary. I think that the greatest danger for the United States is the use of force. I think this would lead to the kind of increase that would make what we have gone through in the last three years -- kidnappings of American civilians, bombings of our diplomatic installations and hijackings -- seem small-scale in comparison. I think there is a very grave danger that the cost-benefit ratio to us long-term of the use of force in this particular situation either to free the hostages, or later in retaliation to send them a message would be disastrous. I think fundamental to our understanding of the Shiite phenomenon, not only in Lebanon but throughout the Middle East, is that they view this not as an initiative but as a response to a long history of oppression as they see it, first by Muslims, then by the West in general, dating back two centuries, and over the last 40 years by the Americans particularly.

MacNEIL: She says it would only make it worse, Mr. Eagleburger.

Mr. EAGLEBURGER: Well, as I indicated earlier, I am not saying that to respond will stop terrorist attacks, but neither is this an accounting, cost-benefit issue. This is people killing Americans, and the United States has an obligation, I think, to do what it can to make it clear that the United States is not going to tolerate people killing American citizens. This is an issue which I think it is clear at this point we need to begin responding to because it is not going to end.

MacNEIL: Mr. Seelye, how do you respond to that about what the United States does to indicate it won't tolerate the killing of its citizens?

Mr. SEELYE: Well, I think we certainly ought to indicate that we are very unhappy about the killing of our citizens. It's tragic, and it's something we want to avoid. But the basic fact is that we can't control the situation. We can go in and use force, but we aren't going to stop terrorism. Among other things, there are all kinds of splinter Shiite and other groups who operate independently. You can hit one and you'll only increase the wrath of the others. And while it would give us a lot of self-satisfaction, the feeling of being a macho government, that we can go over there and hit people on the head, it isn't going to solve terrorism, and it is not going to address the issue effectively.

MacNEIL: Judy? Flight 847: Military Options

WOODRUFF: It is only natural in a situation like this for the government whose people have been taken hostage to think about military action, as we have been discussing. But thinking about it and actually carrying it out are two very different things, indeed. [voice-over] Since the bombing of the Marine barracks in Beirut a year and a half ago, the Reagan administration has been talking about getting tough on terrorism. Testifying before a congressional committee last January, Secretary of State Shultz said the U.S. "cannot yield position or abandon friends under this kind of pressure. If we allow terrorists even one such victory, we embolden them further%%% and we make the world a more dangerous place." But as the country braces itself for what could turn into a long wait for the return of more than 40 Americans in Lebanon, U.S. military options look bleak indeed. Today a naval task force led by the nuclear aircraft carrier Nimitz is reportedly steaming towards the coast of Lebanon. The task force includes a helicopter gunship, several marine amphibious landing units and a guided missile destroyer.

On Friday, when the hostage crisis started, U.S. officials were talking of two possible options, a rescue mission or a retaliatory strike after the hostages were freed. The Pentagon sent its anti-terrorist operations unit, called the Delta Force, to Cyprus. But any rescue attempt was thwarted by the movement of the plane between Algiers and Beirut. Now the hostages are apparently being held in different locations outside the airport. Military analysts say that makes any rescue attempt even more unlikely, and the prospect of a major superpower once again held hostage to the shadow of terrorism made one senator, Patrick Leahy of Vermont, comment on the irony.

Sen. PATRICK LEAHY, (D) Vermont: The irony is that if Ronald Reagan was given exactly the same situation Jimmy Carter was with the hostages held in our embassy in Iran, Ronald Reagan would have ended up having to do exactly what Jimmy Carter did. The options available to President Reagan were the same options available to President Carter. He'd be able to do no more, no less. So unfortunately, because of his criticism of Carter in that case and the tough talk from inaugural day on, the United States has been put in a position of crying wolf.

WOODRUFF: Are the options always the same for American presidents? We pose that question now to someone who was in the White House during the hostage crisis in Iran. He is David Aaron, former Carter administration deputy national security adviser, now an investment banker in New York. Mr. Aaron was Walter Mondale's chief foreign policy adviser during the 1984 presidential campaign.

Mr. Aaron, are there parallels here with the Iran hostage crisis?

DAVID AARON: Yes, I'm afraid there are. The options, in large measure, may seem to be the same, but I believe there are some very important lessons. The first lesson is that we have to be patient. No one thought, four days after the embassy had been seized, that it was going to go on for weeks, let alone months, let alone over a year. We have been dragged now into internal Lebanese politics, indeed, into internal Shia politics. And the prospects for a long, drawn-out situation is quite clear. The second thing is that we have to understand who we're negotiating with. I'm very happy that we're negotiating with Mr. Berri, but we negotiated with a lot of moderates in Iran and we never got anywhere.

WOODRUFF: What are you saying?

Mr. AARON: I am saying that I think the phone call that was reported earlier in the program of the current national security adviser telling Mr. Berri he has it in his hands to change the situation, I hope he's right. But I fear that what's really going on is what went on in Iran, and that is the radicals who hold the hostages are using this as a lever to increase their power and cut down the moderates such as Mr. Berri. The third is you have to make sure we really have a deal. It isn't enough, in my judgment now, if we're going to go forward in the end and see the 700 prisoners released, it's not enough just to get back the hostages who were taken off the plane recently. We'd have to get back all the so-called Jewish-named people. We ought to get back the six or seven or eight people who have been seized over the last six months. And finally I think there are some long-term lessons. One of them, obviously, is that you don't blow hot and cold on the question of retaliation. I happen to agree with Mr. Eagleburger that it's time that people who do this pay a price. This is a bad time to talk about it, however, because the likelihood is that the terrorists may hold back some hostages just to ensure against that situation.

WOODRUFF: How do you think the administration right now is handling this?

Mr. AARON: I think that so far as we can tell they seem to be handling it reasonably well. If I had any criticism or any advice, I would simply say this. It is not correct that Lebanon is totally chaotic. There is a major power in Lebanon with major military forces, major intelligence resources and major security forces, and that country is Syria. Syria stands to profit from this situation, they have gotten our attention from our conversations with Jordan and Israel over the last several weeks, suggesting that we were going to somehow work something out without Syria. It's hard for me to believe that all of this could be transpiring with Syria, the major power in Lebanon, having nothing whatsoever to do with it. I think it's time we paid some attention to the Syrians and put some responsibility in their lap.

WOODRUFF: So what exactly are you suggesting?

Mr. AARON: I'm suggesting that there ought to be conversations with them. I'm suggesting that we ought to, to some extent, hold them responsible. They've had contact with these groups, you know, for some time. And I think they have some influence on them.

WOODRUFF: As you know, during the campaign in 1980 President -- then candidate -- Ronald Reagan, frequently criticized President Carter for having America be held hostage to Iran. Do you ever have the urge to tell the President to ask for an apology?

Mr. AARON: Well, this is not the time to task the President with that kind of ancient history. But it would be nice, perhaps, after this were all over, if he might give Jimmy Carter a call in Plains and commiserate with him.

WOODRUFF: David Aaron, thank you. Robin?

MacNEIL: Yes, should the United States address itself to Syria, Mr. Ajami?

Mr. AJAMI: Well, the U.S. should talk to the Syrians. The Syrians have a good deal of influence in Lebanon. The Syrians are the patrons of Lebanon. But I doubt if the writ of Syria runs all the way into the Shia slums of greater Beirut. If these hostages were held in the Bekaa Valley, they are held in a place where the Syrian army is present in force, and Syria can command men to do what it wants to do in the Bekaa Valley. In greater Beirut I'm not so sure that the Syrians can really deliver. However, I agree with Mr. Aaron, you have to talk to the Syrians.

MacNEIL: What do you think about the Syrian connection in this?

Mr. EAGLEBURGER: I don't always agree completely with Mr. Aaron, but tonight I nd myself totally in agreement with everything he said.

MacNEIL: Okay, on the Syrians. Mr. Seelye, should the United States hold the Syrians responsible and address them right now?

Mr. SEELYE: I think we certainly should address them. I think we should address them on a number of issues. One of those issues is how we put Lebanon back together again. The Syrians have one congruent interest with us, for their own reasons, but nevertheless it is an interest which is congruent, and that is to try to restore equilibrium and some kind of measure of stability in Lebanon. And I think that in the United States option available to us and trying to get involved in Lebanon, we should work with them, with the other factions, the Maronite Christians, and try to reconstitute this sharing of power to increase participation of the Shiites. I share the view of Fouad Ajami that their writ does not cover all the Shiites. And I think they probably don't control these hijackers.

MacNEIL: Ms. Wright, do you have a view on the Syrian connection?

Ms. WRIGHT: Well, I think there are strong indications that the Syrians have lost a lot of the leverage they had on the various militant Shiite groups, particularly over the last year since they took over from the United States in terms of being the main mediator in Lebanon.

MacNEIL: Isn't it likely that the Reagan administration, just as the Carter administration did in the early days of the Iran hostage crisis, is touching every base? I mean, isn't it likely they have already called in the Syrians and done that? I mean, wouldn't that be a logical thing to do?

Mr. AARON: I assume it would be, but I think we've been -- the administration over the last several years has been pretty light on the Syrians all the way around. They had major responsibilities for some of the tragic events surrounding the bombings of our personnel in that country, and nothing really transpired. I think that it's time not only to try to hold some of these individual terrorist groups to account, but some of their sponsors need to be held to account as well.

MacNEIL: Let's go to Mr. Aaron's other point. He said dealing with the Iranian hostage crisis, negotiating with moderates didn't get anywhere. It was the radicals who called the tune in the end. What do you say in this situation, having talked today to the Berri faction, in the light of our earlier discussion of how much he controls things.

Mr. AJAMI: Well, look, in a place like Lebanon radicals always will have the upper hand. I mean, this is a treacherous political ground. However, we must reiterate this point. Berri is the only one who will talk to the Americans. Berri is the only one in the Shia movement who is sensitive to the Americans. So he may not be the best card, but he's the only card we've got.

MacNEIL: Are you as pessimistic as Mr. Aaron about having now got ourselves into Shiite as well as Lebanese politics this could go on for a long time?

Mr. EAGLEBURGER: I'm afraid it very well could. I think it is nevertheless a hopeful sign that Nabih Berri is apparently in charge. But I think there is a real possibility that he in fact will not be able to accomplish much, and in the process, having taken on this responsibility, if he now faces the choice of whether at some point he hands back these hostages, at that point the United States will have no choice but to hold him responsible for having handed them back. So he's gotten himself into the middle of a very difficult problem, I think.

MacNEIL: You mean, he'll be responsible to the Shiites?

Mr. EAGLEBURGER: If he hands those hostages back now to the terrorists who took them in the first place --

MacNEIL: Oh, I see what you mean.

Mr. EAGLEBURGER: -- he at that point has to answer to us, I'm afraid, and I think that's not going to be particularly pleasant.

MacNEIL: What do you feel, Ms. Wright, about the [point] that it's the radicals who are going to call the tune| e here?

Ms. WRIGHT: Oh, I think that's absolutely the case. One of the things that surprised me the most about the negotiations is that no one has called in some of the mullahs, some of the Shiite clerics. I've covered several hijackings in Beirut and all of them had ended peacefully, largely because Shiite clerics have been called in to negotiate with the hijackers and they eventually talked them out. I mean, it took a long time, but they did all end peacefully. And it looks as if they have tried the secular route rather than using some of the most important and influential people available to them in Beirut.

MacNEIL: Well, do we know that's true? Do we know they haven't been on to the mullahs?

Mr. AJAMI: Well, there have been some mullahs involved. Shehassan al-Massre, this mullah who is affiliated with Amal --

MacNEIL: The one you talked to today?

Mr. AJAMI: Right. Clearly there is a very influenctial mullah in Beirut who is affiliated, identified, sympathetic to the Iranians, Shemuhammed Hassein Fudlallah.(?) He is the spiritual guide of Hisboullah. His writ, probably, in Beirut today is stronger than Mr. Berri, but we have no channels with him. The Americans don't know Mr. Fudlallah, don't talk to Mr. Fudlallah, and Mr. Fudlallah is convinced from what he has been saying publicly that he was a target of something, an assassination attempt linked to the CIA. So it's not -- we don't have open channels to that man.

MacNEIL: Mr. Seelye, do you think that, following up on another point by David Aaron, that the United States is in a position to make a deal that would include not only the 700 Shiites in the hands of the Israelis, but the prisoners the Shiites now -- other Americans the Shiites now hold?

Mr. SEELYE: If the Americans are in a position to make a deal?

MacNEIL: Yeah. That if we make a deal that it should be a comprehensive deal that includes the journalists and the two ministers and the others who are held there?

Mr. SEELYE: Well, of course it should be all-inclusive, but I don't see us giving in to these hijackers' demands. I know that there has been a certain amount of puzzlement as to why the Syrians haven't been more effective in breaking loose the seven or eight Americans and others being held over the last year or so. We know the Syrians helped in the release of David Dodge, the former vice president of AUB, and of course the American pilot who was shot down. But I think it may be that they don't have control of these groups. Certainly President Assad has indicated that he has a humanitarian concern in this regard, but I don't see the United States giving in to these demands.

MacNEIL: Let's just go around quickly. As we sit here tonight, how long would you expect we're going to be waiting for the release of those Americans?

Mr. AARON: Well, let me say this. I don't think that if the groups in Lebanon are prepared to release all of the Americans and if the Israelis are prepared to release the 700, as they planned to do anyway, I don't think we should be standing on ceremony about who requests it and how it gets requested and so forth and so on. Our escutcheon has been stained in the Middle East by exaggerated talk and bravado and a lack of action. And we're not going to add significantly to that problem by rescuing our people by taking the initiative here.

MacNEIL: Well, Mr. Aaron, Mr. Eagleburger, Mr. Ajami, Ms. Wright and Mr. Seelye, thank you all. Judy? Flight 847: One Town's Vigil

WOODRUFF: Few in the United States have watched this hijacking story more intensely than have the residents of Algonquin, Illinois. Thirty-four people from the northern Illinois area were on TWA Flight 847. They were returning home from a pilgrimage to the Holy Land. Elizabeth Brackett reports.

ELIZABETH BRACKETT [voice-over]: The music provides the hope. The faces reveal the fear. A Catholic parish in this small Illinois town held hostage as surely as the 18 parishioners trapped in a nightmare drama halfway around the world.

Father ROBERT GARRITY, associate pastor: And so we gather here today to put ourselves in their shoes for a moment, in their place. Why? To help us to be closer to them, to unite ourselves more closely with them in prayer, in support and in love.

BRACKETT [voice-over]: Much of the job of holding the parish together fell to this young priest who spent the weekend urging his flock to be both hopeful and realistic.

Father GARRITY: I do believe that God allows difficult things to happen sometimes in our lives to draw us together, to call us to faith and to remember that, you know, we're not here forever. We're here for a short time and we have to have our priorities straight.

BRACKETT [voice-over]: Associate Pastor Garrity, thrust into his role as the parish waited and prayed for the safe return of the much-loved and respected pastor of the church, Father Bill McDonnell.

LORI KANE, parishioner: He is so integral. I couldn't imagine the church without him. He has made this church what it is. It's such a special community, and he is the rock that it's all built on.

BRACKETT [voice-over]: Parishioners found comfort in the Saturday afternoon prayer services and strength in one another.

MARTHA BARTHOLOMEW, parishioner: We're here for each other, and people are received and cared for and we draw a lot of strength from each other because all of us need each other.

BRACKETT [voice-over]: Unable to leave each other or the drama, parishioners stayed on into the afternoon, both in the sanctuary and in the church office, all hungry for information on the fate of their parish members. Church secretary Jackie Suchek never left the constantly ringing phone.

JACKIE SUCHEK, church secretary: Yes, there were 18 of us that were on there plus two other priests of the diocese.

BRACKETT [voice-over]: Others huddled around radios and TV sets which finally became a source of good news.

MAN: And to pay attention, and we wouldn't be harmed.

NEWSCASTER: And that, gentlemen, is believed to be Ed Novak of Algonquin, Illinois, free in Algiers. Summing up the late developments in the TWA hijacking story --

BRACKETT [voice-over]: By Saturday afternoon, all 10 women and two men on the parish trip to the Holy Land were off the plane and out of danger. Then came the tantalizing hope of contacting the newly freed Ed Novak.

Ms. SUCHEK: I've got a telephone number if we want to call Ed Novak. Hello, is this the El Arassi Hotel? Pardon? Is this the El -- you know what? You're getting a feedback on this thing. I was talking to myself. I would like to speak to Edward Novak, please, the American.

BRACKETT [voice-over]: Jackie got through, but not to Novak.

Ms. SUCHEK: Goodbye now. Good night. They don't know whether he is sleeping soundly or that he is down eating.

BRACKETT [voice-over]: By late evening Father Garrity was once again back in the pulpit offering comfort, encouragement and prayer. As the service ended the parish youth group began handing out the now familiar symbol of Americans held hostage, the yellow ribbon. Several soon found their way to the top of the St. Margaret Mary steeple. Forty hours after the hostage crisis began, Jackie was still holding her post.

[interviewing] How hard a time have you had getting the kind of information you've needed?

Ms. SUCHEK: Today it's been very hard.

PARISHIONER: Oh, my God! Bill's off the plane! I am just a parishioner, just a member of a great big beautiful family. Thank you. Bye bye.

2nd PARISHIONER: What did they say? He's fine. He's fine.

BRACKETT [voice-over]: For church members the first glimpse of their pastor came from the TV.

NEWSWOMAN: Here are the words of Reverend William McDonnell of Algonquin, released from hijacked TWA Flight 847 in Algiers within the hour.

Rev. WILLIAM McDONNELL, released hostage: We were treated very well and they gave us food and drink. They treated us the same as the flight attendants did.

BRACKETT [voice-over]: But as the hours passed the rollercoaster emotions of those huddled around the TV sets took a downward turn as concern grew for the four remaining men on the parish trip still under the hijackers' control: Grant Elliott, a 27-year-old bachelor, had become an active member of the parish over the last year; Ken Anderson, member of a neighboring church, he and his wife had signed up for the St. Margaret Mary trip with friends; George Lazansky, vice president of the local bank, an active parish member on the trip with his wife who had been released; Sy Grossmayer, popular and influential parish member and a close associate of Father McDonnell, his wife had also been released. Late Saturday night the news was particularly upsetting about Sy Grossmayer. A State Department phone call saying Grossmayer was among those taken off the plane in Beirut.

[interviewing] What do you think this latest bit of information means?

AL CICCONE, parishioner: I think it's got some people scared because we know that there are other American hostages in Beirut, Father Jancko from Joliet, and he's not been out. Some people think it's good he's not on the plane, but I think, you know, it's a catch-22. I don't think either place is a good place to be right now.

BRACKETT [voice-over]: Dawn on Sunday brought new light to St. Margaret Mary's church steeple, but little change in the situation. As the morning wore on in the tiny river town of Algonquin, more and more ribbons and signs appeared in a town where terrorism had been a word found only in the newspapers just a short time ago. St. Margaret Mary parishioners once again filled the pews of their church.

[on camera] By the third morning of the vigil the strain was evident, the prayers more urgent. Father Garrity had hoped he would be celebrating a joyous Father's Day service. Instead, he once again asked for the safe return of the fathers of the parish still held hostage.

Father GARRITY: We gather on this Father's Day weekend to honor our fathers and all the fathers who are here among us this morning. We gather to pray in a special way for a group which includes some fathers, some fathers from our community. Of course, those are the hostages in the Middle East, and we do pray for them.

BRACKETT [voice-over]: Sy Grossmayer's family filled an entire pew this Sunday morning, their ordeal visible on their faces. The son of hostage George Lazansky told reporters outside the church he had talked to his recently released mother only hours before.

PETER LAZANSKY, son of hostage: She sounded pretty good. She was afraid to be in Algeria, but she was going to Paris today.

BRACKETT: And how did she say your father seemed when she went back to say goodbye?

Mr. LAZANSKY: I think they're not serving champagne on the flight anymore, but she said that he's real strong and doing well.

BRACKETT [voice-over]: Grant Elliott's parents continued their vigil in their rural home, the flag up until the day of their son's return. Elliott called the church to let them know he had gotten a phone call through to Father McDonnell in Paris.

FRANCIS ELLIOTT, father of hostage: He says he's doing real well and he said they had a wonderful experience and they're -- you know, what happened in the end, you know, didn't take away the good time they had before that. And he seemedreal positive about the final outcome of this thing.

BRACKETT [voice-over]: As for his own son's condition --

Mr. ELLIOTT: He said that Grant was holding up well and that, you know, that he was taking it as well as could be expected.

BRACKETT [voice-over]: Back at the church the mood was now upbeat. Word had come that two women on the parish trip that were among the first group released were on their way home, their flight arriving at O'Hare late Sunday afternoon. But it was the welcome at St. Margaret Mary's that the women and the parish had been waiting for. Inside, the two women described their terror-filled ordeal.

FRANCIS REYNOLDS, released hostage: But I heard them hitting people this way on the other side. And they knocked someone's glasses out and they broke them and the husband got up, so they took her husband by the neck and took him in back. That's what I can say. [unintelligible] And she screamed and they looked at her, they said, "Want it?"

NETA SLOTOWSKI, released hostage: But I looked up at the partition or the entrance way between first class and coach. There stood this man with the weapon in his hand.

BRACKETT: Neta, did you feel the prayers of this parish when you were over there?

Ms. SLOTOWSKI: Absolutely. Absolutely.

BRACKETT: How did you know that?

Ms. SLOTOWSKI: How did I know it? It's something that is a cosmic kind of thing that you feel in your heart and your mind.

BRACKETT [voice-over]: Today, as a clearly tired Father Garrity once more stood before his parishioners, the prayers were for the four remaining men of the parish who had now been taken off the plane and held by the hijackers in Beirut.

Father GARRITY: I'm concerned. It sounds as though it's something that could be dragged out for a very long time. It's reminiscent, in my mind, of the hostage crisis in Iran. And I'm just very concerned for our parishioners, our loved ones, their families. I just hope and pray that this thing can come to a peaceful resolution as soon as possible.

BRACKETT [voice-over]: There is no doubt that the vigil and the prayers will continue here until this ordeal for St. Margaret Mary's and the country finally comes to an end.

WOODRUFF: Finally, a recap of today's top story. The stalemate over the TWA jetliner hijacking continues to dominate the news. The American hostages reportedly have been taken off the plane in Beirut. A Shiite militia leader says they are safe, and the Reagan administration says that it will not ask Israel to release 700 Shiite Moslems in its prisons, as demanded by the hijackers. Good night, Robin.

MacNEIL: Good night, Judy. That's our NewsHour tonight. We will be back tomorrow night. I'm Robert MacNeil. Good night.