The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour

No. No. No. No. No. No. Good evening, leading the news this Wednesday. Secretary of State Baker said he was encouraged by the beginning of a Soviet Lithuanian

dialogue. Israel's Labor Party leader, Shiman Paris, said he has enough votes to form a new government. And singer Saravan died of lung cancer. We'll have details in our new summary in a moment. Judy Woodruff is in Washington tonight, Judy. After the news summary, we go first to a newsmaker interview with a leading member of the Soviet delegation visiting Washington, Gennady Garasimov, spokesman for the Soviet Foreign Ministry. Then part one of Charlene Hunter-Gault's series on a new category of the poor, people at the bottom and out of reach. Tonight, Charlene profiles Gloria Brindle, a grandmother who is trying to care for a family of 10. And she speaks with Jerry Bradley, one of those trying to help. And finally, we remember singer Saravan. Funding for the news hour has been provided by AT&T. AT&T has supported the McNealaire news hour since 1983, because quality information and quality communications is our idea of a good connection, AT&T, the right choice.

Created by the John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation, a catalyst for change. And by PepsiCo. And made possible by the financial support of viewers like you, and the corporation for public broadcasting. High level U.S. Soviet talks got underway in Washington today. Soviet Foreign Minister Edward Chevord-Nadzi met Secretary of State Baker at the State Department this afternoon. At the top of the agenda, was Lithuania. Earlier in the day, Baker said yesterday's meeting in Moscow between the Lithuanian delegation and an aid to President Gorbachev was a positive sign. Branches, as President Bush has said, to see these developments proceed peacefully and be resolved through dialogue. We are encouraged by the fact that it would appear at least that there are the beginnings of such a dialogue.

If you look at what happened yesterday in the Soviet Union through the visit of representatives of Lithuania with Mr. Yaakovlev, we are encouraged as well by the fact that we see references coming from both sides to the concept or possibility of some sort of a referendum approach. In the Soviet Union, President Gorbachev made an angry telephone call to the leader of Estonia's parliament. Gorbachev called him to criticize that Baltic Republic's moves towards independence. Last week, the Estonian parliament declared the Republic an occupied state and called on Moscow to start negotiations. Judy? West Germany's foreign minister was in Washington today for a series of meetings, mostly on the issue of German reunification. Hans Dietrich Gensher rejected Soviet proposals to make a united Germany neutral. He met with President Bush at the White House this morning. Afterwards, he told reporters he hoped that reunification talks could begin this month.

We want a united Germany. We want to see German unification to be a contribution to stability in Europe, and it is in this way also that we could sit as a membership of a united Germany in NATO to be of great importance and neutral Germany would increase instability. It will introduce a degree of unpredictability in Germany and in Europe. East Germany came one step closer to having its first non-communist government today. The major political parties agreed to ask Christian Democrat leader, Lothar de Maseer, to form a coalition government. The Christian Democrats are part of a political alliance which favors a rapid reunification of Germany. In Israel today, Labor Party leader Shimon Peres said that he has won the backing of enough members of parliament to lead a coalition government. The situation has remained with the political situation rather remain confused as several

minor parties deny that they had agreed to support him. Peres has been seeking coalitions since the middle of last month, when the previous government under Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir lost a vote of confidence. El Salvador's government and leftist rebels began Peres talks today in Geneva to end the 10-year civil war. The two sides agreed to work for a truce and reintegration of the rebels into Salvador and society. Today's session was mediated by United Nations Secretary General Paris de Quayo. Columbia's drug traffickers today claimed responsibility for yesterday's kidnapping of Colombian senator Federico Estrada Velas. They threatened to kill him if two of their associates in police custody are harmed. We have a report narrated by Louise Bates of World Wide Television News. It was this statement in a television interview over the weekend that apparently got Senator Estrada kidnapped.

He said any question of dialogue between the government and the drug gangs was absolutely impossible. The former Supreme Court magistrate was intercepted by armed men as he drove to work in Medellin. In the meantime, the gangs have been stepping up their campaign of murder, designed to prevent any more suspects being extradited to the United States. This victim sought to have been a policeman, one of at least 12 to have been murdered in and around Medellin in the last three days. Another target for traffickers attacks, an aspect at all newspaper, said it was suspended its entire editorial column until the government provided better protection. The papers taken an uncompromising stand against the cartels, even before the government launched its own campaign against them. Publisher Guillermo Carner was shot dead outside the papers' offices in 1987, after leading a crusade for tougher government action against the drug gangs. But for now, L.S. Spectador's lead economies blank, its voice silent. Colombia's president for Helio Barco today made an offer to Pablo Escobar, the alleged leader of the Medellin cocaine cartel.

Barco promised not to extradite Escobar to the United States if he turns himself in. The Colombian government has extradited 15 drug trafficking suspects to the U.S. since August. China's premier Lee Peng held his first news conference today since his government crushed the pro-democracy movement last June. He said the public does not want any more pro-democracy protests when asked who ordered the army to shoot at protesters. Lee responded, isn't this question out of date? Two student leaders of those pro-democracy protests surfaced in France yesterday. Chai Ling and her husband Phoong Duh appeared on French television. Premier Lee warned France not to let them pursue dissident activities on French soil. President Bush today thanked key Senate supporters of the Clean Air Bill. He invited a bipartisan group to the White House this afternoon and praised the bill which passed the Senate late last night. The Compromised legislation calls for new limits on emissions from cars, power plants,

and factories. The compromise was worked out last month between Senate leaders and the Bush administration. The House plans to act on its own version later this spring. This afternoon the Senate approved the nomination of Timothy Ryan as chief federal regulator of the Savings and Loan Industry. The vote was 62-37. Ryan will head the Office of Thrift Supervision, a newly created branch of the Treasury Department. It is charged with regulating thrift institutions and deciding which troubled SNLs should be taken over by the government. Ryan's nomination was controversial and deposed by many Democrats who said that he lacked banking experience. Senator Donald Regal, Democrat from Michigan, said the administration's efforts to rush the nomination had put the Senate in a difficult position. So even if you've got reservations about qualifications and even if we couldn't find somebody out there with towering qualification, we found this guy and here he is and we need somebody

in the job. So take him right now. We don't just take him for right now. We take him for five years because this is a five-year term and you put him in three jobs not just one and it adds up to $5 trillion worth of responsibility. The single biggest financial job in the country today does this man possess leadership. That is what is needed. Today to move into the eye of the storm surrounding the savings industry and to offer help guidance make the tough decision and provide leadership. I believe on critically that he does have that qualification and many others. In the final vote, 17 Democrats joined all 45 Republican senators in supporting Ryan's nomination.

One of the world's greatest jazz singers Sarah Vaughn died last night. The cause of death was lung cancer. She was 66. The divine one as she was known became famous in the 1940s making her name with some of the big bands of the time. She was known for her wide vocal range and rich sound. We will hear one of her performances later in the program. Finally in the news, a high school English teacher from San Diego was named this year's teacher of the year, Janice Gabe received a crystal apple from President Bush during a White House ceremony. The 39-year-old teacher has taught for 17 years. She told reporters that she once considered quitting because she saw such a lack of respect for her profession. That wraps up our news summary just ahead on the news hour, so be it spokesman Garassimov. A look at America's poor, and Sarah Vaughn remembered. First to die, the newsmaker interview with Soviet Foreign Ministry spokesman Gennady

Garassimov. He is in Washington for talks between Soviet Foreign Minister Chevard Nazé and Secretary of State Baker. The three days of meetings were intended to prepare for the upcoming Bush Gorbachev summit. They were scheduled before the current tension developed between Moscow and Lithuania. We talked earlier this evening. Mr. Garassimov, thank you for being with us. I know these meetings are just now getting underway, but what is your expectation? How much time do you think is going to be taken up in these ministerial meetings discussing Lithuania? Well, this meeting is the continuation of Soviet American dialogue on five topics. The main one is disarmament, we have bilateral relations, we have global issues, we have regional conflicts, and we have human rights and other questions relating to human rights. So this is the agenda, and the meeting itself was scheduled long ago before Lithuania, and

it is one of the meetings in preparation for the summit this summer. But as I'm sure you know, US officials have been saying, leading up to the meeting that they expect Lithuania to take up a fair amount of time. Quickly speaking, it's domestic issue, it's just to compare, suppose tomorrow a Canadian Prime Minister comes to town, are you going to discuss Quebec with him? I'm not sure. So we might. Maybe you might. So when we have this exchange of opinion, of course you can raise any subject. So in this sense, this particular subject of Lithuania will be, maybe it will be an exchange of opinion on the subject. But this is not something which is on the agenda. Again, as I'm sure you know, US officials are telling reporters, it was reported in, I guess, several newspapers here in the United States today that they're feeling very frustrated

that they feel for weeks they've been saying, will be patient, will be patient. And on the other hand, there's been continued provocation on the part of your government in Lithuania. No, no, I don't think it's provocation. The provocation actually started with this declaration of independence, which was taken at night, deep in the night, just before Gorbachev was elected, the president. So it was taken in a rush on the certain pressure in the parliament, Lithuanian parliament, I mean. And Gorbachev, being the president, he asked them to follow the path of law. And this is the conflict. The conflict is that we simply are asking Lithuanians to act according to our constitution. We are not saying them, stop it, we are not going to let you go. We're saying to them, you can go, but using the legal road.

But it comes at a time when your parliament, the Soviet parliament is in the process of passing a new law that would provide, provide for a succession of what they've done is taken place at the same time as theirs. We had an article on our constitution, which gives the right to secede to any republic. But there was no law to back it up. Now we are going to have this law to back it up with certain mechanism. Because you see after 50 years in our union, there are so many conflicting claims. And what to do with the 20% of the population that are not its opinions, their polls, Prashans and Jews, but to do with them. There's a report today that your government is considering some sort of a referendum in Lithuania. Is there anything that... Is it in the law? Is it in the law? Is it a referendum? Is that what's going to happen? I hope.

How is it going to be decided? This is the way out, it's compromised. How will it be decided? I mean, you say the way out is compromised. Well, the people there in Vilnius, they must agree on this. They must say, yes, we're going to have a referendum. You see, if they are so sure, that everybody wants to go to leave the union. Why be afraid of a referendum? And follow the procedure, the legal procedure, pulling off period, and also meeting these conflicting claims. It's just like divorce. Well, when you're going to have a divorce, you must settle all the claims. You cannot just shut the door and go, so sometimes it happens. And when you say the way out is compromised, and yet over the last few weeks, we've seen increasing steps of pressure, intimidation, there have been Soviet tanks rolling through the streets of Vilnius, buildings have been taken over, young soldiers have been taken on.

All it does, the border has been closed. It's not taken over. They're not taken over. It's just a piece of an example showing that there are conflicting claims, the building you mentioned, belong to the party. It was paid for the construction, the site, everything by party dues. So the legal owner wants this building back, and so that's why the soldiers are there. What about clothes? They're just defending the law. Closing the border? Closing the border, it's just because of this tense situation, it's a different story, it's closing the border for the time being. Taking the soldiers out of the hospital, the psychiatric hospital? I don't think psychiatric, isn't it? Well, they were in hospitals. Well, you're taking episodes, and this can also be explained very easily. These soldiers are deserters. They deserted their unions, their units. So what do you do with them? You just take them back. And they were taken back, and they were not punished, so amnesty for them.

But with a clause, the amnesty is for those who returned to their units, or are going to return to their units in a day or two or three, I don't remember. After that, they will be punished when caught. So when the United States expresses concern over these increasing steps of whatever you want to call it intimidation, pressure, whatever. It's not pressure. It's trying to put low end order there. And we had a Ukrainian delegation in Moscow, and they're going to talk. They talked yesterday with Mr. Yakvolev, who is on the presidential council very close to Mr. Gorbachev. They're going to talk today to Mr. Bakhat, who is Minister of Interior. So things are moving, and they're moving in the right direction. So we have positive signs of dissipation improving. And for several days, your government wouldn't meet with them. Why was that? Because the president issued a decree, which was ignored by their authorities over there.

What do you mean? You mean the authorities in the New England? President Bush has been, in fact, he's been criticized in our country by some for being too restrained. There are those who are saying he should speak out more forcefully. He should be more critical of your government and its actions toward Lithuania. What would happen if President Bush were being more forceful and were being more critical? It is his hypothetical question, his hypothetical question. There are many countries where you have separatist movements. United Kingdom, so United, but someone to be disunited Kingdom in Northern Ireland. In France, you have Corsica, and there is a separatist movement there. In Spain, you have Basques. They want to go with a loan. Why are you not worried about Basques or Quebec people or Corsicans? Why are worried about Lithuanians?

Nobody even knows how many of them there are. It's a very tiny republic, and it is a little bit more than 1% of the population of the Soviet Union. What event is your government so worried about its declaration of government? Because the law is the law. You can't just go, shut the door and go. You must follow the legal procedure. We are going in circles. But as you know, our country has never recognized the incorporation by your government, Lithuania and the other two more countries. That's why these people, over there in Lithuania, they are acting and increasing tension and they are creating problems for President Gorbachev, and they are creating problems for President Bush. For President Gorbachev, because he is the president, he wants to save the Union. You remember your President Lincoln as the man who saved the Union, and he wants if Lithuania is going to go, he wants to use the law, and they can go using this law and

they just go out. For President Bush, they also create the problem, because President Bush does not want to rock the boat. And with venues, they are saying thanks, thanks and thanks to Mr. Gorbachev for President Gorbachev, because they understand that they couldn't reclaim their independence five years ago. They could do it because we have President Gorbachev. And they are not very... the gratitude is not there. They could wait a little bit more, to be a little bit more grateful. We interviewed Senator Kennedy on this program last week, shortly after he returned from meeting Mr. Gorbachev in Moscow. And he said one thing that struck him was that he does not think Mr. Gorbachev understands the depth of feeling, the grassroots feeling, Lithuania. He said that Mr. Gorbachev referred to what is going on in Lithuania as a palace coup. There is just a few people who took over and he does not really understand that these are a lot of people who are very unhappy. President Gorbachev visited Lithuania, he traveled there for four days, I guess, and I

traveled there with him. So we saw. For instance, I remember when President Gorbachev left the airport, had Shawlai, one of the cities there, he stopped, he went out of his car, and he talked to the people to the crowd for 20 minutes. This was non-Lithvanyan community, and they complained about discrimination. He did the Russian Russians, maybe Poles, it is not non-Lithvanyan. They complained about discrimination, they suffered there, 20% of the population. And I assure you that a lot of these fennials also want to stay with the union simply because they believe that prehistoric will continue and will give them all the freedom they want with two exceptions, defense and foreign policy, which is acceptable. They have now economic independence, beginning January 1st, they have already economic independence.

So you're saying that you think this is just a few people who feel this way and that it's not the majority of Lithuania, is that right? I don't know, the Parliament voted for it, the Parliament, the local Parliament. Who represents the people? Yes, voted for it, but you can argue that it was voting under pressure. Deep at night, the sense of urgency was created, so that's why if they think that everybody is for secession, that's down, so is referendum. Do you expect a date for a summit between Mr. Bush and Mr. Gorbachev will be set during this meeting? How concerned are you that this Lithuanian situation may upset the course of U.S.-Soviet relations if it hasn't already? I hope not. Well, it's actually really a domestic issue. It's a domestic issue. It's very unfortunate that Lithuania didn't give our President the first 100 days piece and quiet.

It was his first challenge, so she's in a difficult position. He does want to use force, he said this many times, he wants Lithuanians to go the legal way. They're the only thing he wants. So the tension is there and it's unfortunate and I agree with you, but I hope that it is not going to ruin our relations, for instance, we're very critical of your government in Panama. But we were not raising hell, we're not saying that the look, we must discuss it at our regular meetings in Panama, what we're doing there. And there isn't, there isn't for American troops to go there, it was just an indication that somebody wanted to rape on office as wife, it's just, it's silly. So you equate what the United States did in Panama, West? I don't equate, but I think that you must take things in proportion, in proportion. It is not something that the world is, is going down tomorrow.

Just one last. It's really unfortunate situation in Lithuania, we are wanted to manage it in a healthy way, in a legal way, we don't want to use force and I hope that there will be fine, they will find a compromise, but to do next. We don't think what's already happened is a use of force in some way. No shots were fired, got the beat. One last thing, there was a report today out of Lithuania that the parliament there is urging the young men in Lithuania not to respond to the spring call-up for the military. This is another unfortunate episode showing that they are not going to respect the law of the land. And again, on this notion of a rep. Nationalistic emotions running high. And there was in Lithuania, and when we traveled there, Gorbachev tried to appeal to reason and to common sense. For instance, he said, look economically, you cannot stand on your own feet economically. Look, we are going to have a new federation, everybody is going to be free, they stay

with the union, but they didn't listen, they acted on the emotional level, emotions were running very high there. And so when they argue that it's something that reflects what most of their people want, the response of your government is, it's just a few people and... I didn't say that. You're saying this the second time, not me, I didn't say just a few people. I mean, you're a government. You want to put your phrase into my mouth, just a few people, I didn't say that, a lot of people, but not all of them, so maybe it's better to have a referendum. Are you optimistic? That's what will happen. Well, if Lithuanians want to go, they will go. Again, the conflict is not letting them go. The conflict is, if they want to go, they can go, but by legal way. That's the only thing.

Because we must care, we should see, we have a lot of things to worry about. What about this 20% of non-Hispanic population? What to do with them? One question? Yeah. Economically, what to do with this? Lithuanians depend on us on their oil and gas. We depend on them on certain things. So we must follow certain procedures to settle these claims, conflicting things. Mr. Grassimo, we thank you for being with us. Thank you. We'll go ahead on the news hour, people who find the American dream out of reach, and remembering singer Saravan. Next, tonight, we begin a major news series looking at one of America's most daunting domestic problems. It's Charlene Hunter-Gods' report, and she has the details. Charlene? Robin, it's a problem so new to American life that even its very definition is open to debate. At the heart of it is a category of people that didn't exist merely a decade ago.

But these people are now beginning to take on an identity that many argue sets them apart from all other groups in America. They are the people who have fallen through the cracks, and now live in the basement of the American social system, as one observer put it. Others call them the underclass. Who are they? What are their problems? And why should we as a nation care? Over the next six Wednesday nights, we will try to answer these and other questions, as we get to know some of these people and talk with others who have tried to help them. We will conclude with a debate over what to do about them with some of the country's leading experts. We begin this odyssey in Little Rock, Arkansas, with a single mother with no steady source of income. Trying to make it against incredible odds. You are listening to know whether ADO and Central Arkansas are the voice of the National Weather Service, the forecast for this afternoon, cloudy with occasional rain and a chance of thunderstorms, heavy rain is possible, high from 65 to 70.

In the middle of a wet winter morning in North Little Rock, Gloria Brindle was working away at the only job she has in life, trying to hold her household together. Then people of varying ages in severely cramped quarters make it a difficult job at best. Add to that a different set of problems every day, and Gloria Brindle's job becomes close to impossible. Yet, that's the story of Gloria Brindle's life. A daily existence close to the edge of disaster. On this day, Brindle's daughter Emily was home from school with an infected tooth. Her daughter-in-law, Donna, was here too, with her two children, baby Michelle and three-year-old John. My daughter-in-law and my son and two babies had lived with me since July of this year, and they had no income, and my son got a job and we were working well, and then couldn't hold her dog her in a quit, and he's not really mature enough to provide her family. And she has, you said she has a lot of others, tell me about that.

She has this baby, she's pregnant now, and this baby she's pregnant with now makes total of six for her. She's just 21 years old. Brindle's niece Sean arrived recently with two more children, Crystal and Gala. There was also 15-year-old Chad. He isn't part of the family, but Brindle took him in because she felt his mother wasn't caring for him properly. The week we visited, no one in the house had a steady job. There were no male wage earners present. There were no adult males present, period. Television, as babysitter, is an essential in this household full of children. Since no one has to punch a clock at hardly matters at none of the five clocks in the living room agree. Brindle's schedule is usually determined by Christ's sins, like errands that have to be canceled because, once again, the car won't start, or like Chad stabbing his finger on an old hypodermic needle he found in the bedroom, left apparently by the previous

tenants. Then there are the petty squabbles that illuminated bigger problems. I can't go out and work because I've got two grandchildren and the mother can't cope with taking care of them by herself. She has to have help and scan them, which is children protective service for child abuse. When I let me leave the home, someone there to supervise and make sure she does not abuse the kid. Because she's has the history of a violent temper and she gets upset and takes it out on the jaw and the little boy. And there are the chronic health problems. The result of having no family doctor, no regular medical checkups, nor medical insurance of any kind. On this particular morning, Brindle gave Emily medicine for her infected mouth.

When Emily gave Gala medicine for an infected ear, Crystal got medicine for an eye problem. Eventually and frequently, everybody ends up in the emergency room for an infected two, the flu, or in this case, bronchial spasms in one of the babies. Then, there's the terrible money crisis. Brindle spent a good portion of her adult life on welfare, but at the moment she doesn't qualify. Her income is essentially limited to two monthly social security checks totaling $750 for a family of 10. I applied several times a year to go for my daughter and they just kept telling me she couldn't get it because her dad was just to be disabled and took a long time before they finally let me have it for her. I got for her a couple of years ago and then her dad and I got back together but it didn't

work because he was blind and unhealthy and he just didn't want to be married and coping blindness too and he just passed away September 9th so they started my social security when he died. With barely enough money to make ends meet, Brindle can't afford to even routine things like repairs to the car or a phone or a washing machine. She does the wash at her mother Myrtle's house nine blocks away. On this day she did nine loads. She did nine loads a day before as well. Brindle has sporanically reached out for help but it's always in a crisis and the response has always been piecemeal. The already strained local anti-poverty agency, COPE, helped out with a Christmas basket and twice paid a utility bill Brindle couldn't afford. The most recent bill was so long overdue that the gas company was threatening to cut off with service.

OK, we'll look at all this turned in and the day explained to you that it takes up to 40 days to process this. Anyway, they can call the gas cap and tell them to work on us and they don't turn it off. You guys are supposed to be turned off tomorrow. My life's always been a mess. I got married the first time when I was 16 years old and it was a big mistake. I quit school and I wished I hadn't. So I'd like to go back and finish school, but with all the kids in the house it's kind of hard to do. My first boy would be 20 on this birthday. I had him when I was 18 and his dad and I worked together for about two years and his dad didn't want to work and provide for families or we just didn't stay together. So then what happened? Well, yeah, I got married again and that didn't work out either because everyone that I've been with doesn't want to work and provide for the family and I don't like not having nothing. I've always been a hard worker and want to provide for my family. So that's why I'm by myself. So in all you've been married how many times?

I've been married seven times. During the period we visited with Brenda, she made an emergency trip to California where she grew up. Her son Victor, who remained behind, was being held in the Los Angeles County Juvenile Hall in connection with a car theft. Brenda had heard a rumor that Victor might be released if she appeared at the sentencing. Brenda and her mother drove from Arkansas to make the court date. The trip took two days. Where'd you stay? We slept in the car in front of juvenile hall in Silmar, why in front of juvenile hall? Well, that's where my son was at and my car wouldn't run and we'd afraid we wouldn't be there in the next morning for the court, so we slept out in the parking lot in the car. The car ran all night. Now we turned it off. We covered up in blankets. What was that like? Well, it was uncomfortable sleeping in the car, but I'd do it again for my son and any of my kids.

The court has reviewed the probation officers report that reporters received an evidence by reference. The minor's mother was also present. Did you have any communication with a probation officer of this county about being here today and what might happen with your son? Yes, I did. What were you told? He told me that he'd recommend he'd be released to me. And you came to this state based upon that recommendation? Yes, sir. The minor clearly wants to be with his mother. The mother wants him. I don't think it would serve the interest of the minor or society to keep him confined any longer. When Victor Back was an emotional boost for Brenda, but a mixed blessing economically, Victor had no immediate prospects for her job. For Brenda, it was just one more mouth to feed. Back in Arkansas, Victor and Chad spent a lot of time sitting in the car to get away from the noise and chaos of the house. Meanwhile, Gloria Brenda was still trying to make a better life for herself and her extended family.

She found a new house with one extra room. It only has one bathroom for its 10 occupants and it's a need of a lot of work. But until the next crisis, Brenda is trying hard to make this house a home. What she didn't find was an exit from the underlying conditions that keep her permanently dependent on outside help to survive. One of the few places that's trying to respond to Gloria Brenda's plight is cope. The key anti-poverty agency in Little Rock. The man in charge of its outreach centers is Jerry Bradley. So it's all about raising, you know, your awareness, giving you the information, know the otherwise you might not get accepted. He was born into a welfare family himself, but went on to college and a career helping people still trapped in the poverty he himself escaped. Mr. Bradley, you've been dealing with Gloria Brenda. How typical a client is she? I would have to classify Gloria as being very typical of the class that we see in all of our different neighborhood service centers because of the fact that she obviously has

met with a lot of failure in terms of trying to provide for herself, a family, somewhere in her past. There was some particular economic or medical trauma that produced the crises. At some point, what happened, these were what we call, you know, the catalyst that either send people into these tail spans. And once, which is a human nature, once someone tries to recover and they meet with resistance or they meet with callousness or lack of compassion, it seems to, I guess, like a snowball. It seems to snowball that they begin feeling well, they don't care. I didn't do this. It wasn't my fault, but yet I can't get this service, yet I can't get somebody to help me, even though these services are out here and then they're yet they're looking at other people in the community, they're looking at other people in the United States.

They're talking about all of the wealth, all of the opportunities that exist in this country. But yet, when they look at themselves in the mirror, they say, I'm not getting this. And then what happens? They become kind of what happens. Cynical, cynicism sets in, bitterness sets in, disillusionment sets in, lack of self-esteem sets in, even to the point to an individual against whether to doubt their self-worth or that they really ever, really can really get to back where they really once were before. That vision, that image of how they used to be, seems to get dimmer and dimmer and dimmer. Another, another effect of that, Charlene, is that, excuse me, poor card decisions seem to now start coming up a lot more regular. We all, poor quality decisions about what should I buy, what should I use this money for, and what should I not use it for? Is it for something that I really want myself, or is it something that we really need,

or is it something that we can do without now, and it can wait for later? Those start to get in blurred a lot, and then the decisions are not based so much on planning or priorities as relates to the basic necessities of life, housing, utilities, clothing, preventive medical care, but they begin being based on emotional gratification. That which can make me feel good now. How difficult is it for people like her to plug into services of agencies? Well, it's not very difficult from where you and I sit, but it's extremely difficult from where they sit, and I mean the dichotomy to imply that once they've gone to agency after agency after agency and perchance, and it really does happen because we know that it does with the callousness sometimes that is displayed by some agencies of course with feeling that they're doing people a favor, and they kind of just do things by the book, by the letter, and if you'll $1 over here, then you're not eligible.

We can't do anything to help you goodbye, or we can help you here, but if we help you here, this other thing that somebody may be doing that would allow them to become a little bit more self-sufficient, get a little bit more self-esteem. If they do that, then the service room will be jerked away. So it becomes kind of a perpetual, I guess, resistance that one has even for kind of trying to seek that help. Let's turn the focus back on Gloria Brando, because this seems to me to be the essence of the problem with the so-called underclass, that these people become so entrenched that it becomes almost impossible to provide the range of comprehensive services to dig them out. She's there, she's taken in all kinds of relatives and stray kids and people in trouble. Is this a syndrome A, and B, how do you respond to that? I mean, is anybody capable of responding to the range of problems as she is?

A is, yes, it is a syndrome. It probably comes as a stiff surprise to people that are not very familiar with people in poverty and low-income people, that their hearts, as embedded as they may be, as as a disillusioned, as cynical as they may be, their hearts are probably the biggest that there is of any people in the world. I guess it's that unbridled empathy that they feel that I know how it is. Let me reach out. I don't have much, but I'll share the little bit I've got. That's noble, but by the same token, you now just add another brick onto the barrier that already was already 5, 6, 8, 10, 20, 100 feet tall. B, how do you respond to that in a quiet, non-judgmental, and a consistent and persistent manner of just providing the kind of counseling, the ear, not critiquing, but I guess I would

call it as holding up a mirror and saying, look, I know that you have a good heart. But this is where you are. How do you think that you're going to make a move to move further out of this if this continues? Where did your empathy come from? How come you feel this way? I guess it must be because I'm one of those products that I was just talking about, Charlie. I came from an impoverished family, a broken home, an abused child. I grew up on government commodities, AFDC, holes in my jeans, cardboard in my shoes. But how did you get out of the situation you ran? Believe it or not, it was the same method that I was mentioning to you that I would employ. I had somebody sit down with me and it was my social worker and constantly let me know that I was important, even though I had the kind of childhood, even though I was existing

in this very austere kind of environment was not being properly fed and not having clothing and shoes to wear some time. That did not make me who I was. I was born in a town called Dumas, Arkansas, it's about 90 miles southeast of Little Rock Arkansas, one of three children with a mother that was mildly mentally retarded and the father that was mentally ill. In 1954, my father obviously, on the psychosis, forced my mother at gunpoint to put me in an oven and many people, probably our age and older, we remember the kinds of stoves where you used to put your food in and bake it, whether wood was under the stove actually. He just kind of flipped out one day and my mother being mildly mentally retarded and probably terrified, acquiesced and forced him to, forced her to leave me there. And I was found by one of our neighbors and because of that, I'm sitting here today. What happened after that?

Well my father was sent to prison and he was never allowed to come into my home and visit me. So I never got a chance to really have spent a lot of time. My father, only little small peers of time, he'd come and not go out and meet him and talk to him, but I grew up basically without a father. But my grandmother was very instrumental in doing the times of things that I've said earlier that people have done along the way from me and let me know that I was, I did have some value that there was something that I could contribute that I didn't need to feel defeated and that I didn't need to feel embittered because of what had happened, but actually to look at that as kind of a springboard and to doing something with myself and then coming back and doing something for someone else. Is that important to think and helping people out of this persistent poverty? Critical, extremely critical to help them out of it. They just, they have to see somebody that's really made it. They got to see that because as they're seeing me sitting behind the desk, walking around

with a red tie or a tie, you know, that has pink in it, they can't see me ever being like that. When I've told a lot of my clients that you have no idea the gasp, the shock, the disbelief and it's like, but I mean, you can do this too. You can do this. You just need to, you know, make a commitment to start right now. Is it possible to extrapolate from that to some broader governmental policy or whatever that would respond to more individuals? Yes, it is. In some kind of way, we could just fund a network of people who have overcome these different adversities, you know, and get in surrounding with the kinds of support, financial, basic necessities, those kinds of things, education support services that they really do need to give them, I guess, the reinforcement to continue in this particular way. I think we know we'd have ourselves, you know, a real peace core, because I'm telling you there's a war that's going on in this country, and it's the war of impoverished people

and they're swinging left and right at whoever and wherever comes, even the people that are trying to help them, it's kind of like a drowning person that does know how to swim. They'll kill you, and if necessary, if we have to say something like what we talked about to knock them out, but to get them to shore to get them to listen, then we want to do that and nothing can do that better than they can to test them on you. Well, dear Bradley, thank you very much. Charlene will continue our series next week with the profile of a high school dropout. Finally tonight, a remembrance of Saravon, a singer who died of cancer today at her home in California. She was 66. She started her career at 16 when she won an amateur contest at the Apollo Theater in New York, with her extensive range and ability to improvise. Her style was unmistakable.

Ella Fitzgerald once said Von had the greatest singing talent in the world. We close with the divine Saravon, as she was often called, in a performance at the Plaza Hotel in New York in 1979. It's an excerpt from the America Pop series produced by Public Station WNET. Use indeed reach. the pain. Be here at last all the ground. You're in the minute. Send in the clouds.

Here's a day, please. Don't you prove what you keep staring at. One who can't move. Where are the clouds sending in the clouds? Just when I stopped.

Nobody told us. Why don't we know you are that I want it was yours. Making my entrance again when my angel will flee. Sure, my love is yours. I know you is yours. Don't you love for us. My fault.

I thought that it was what I was. Where are the clouds? Just when I stopped, I thought it was yours. I thought it was yours. I thought it was yours.

Where are the clouds? I thought to be clouds. I thought it was yours. I thought it was yours.

I thought it was yours. Again, the major stories of this Wednesday Secretary of State Baker said he was encouraged by the beginning of a Soviet Lithuanian dialogue. On the news hour tonight, Soviet Foreign Ministry spokesman Gennady Garasimov said he

was optimistic a compromise could be reached through a Lithuanian referendum on independence. And the Senate this afternoon approved President Bush's nomination of Timothy Ryan to head the Office of Thrift Supervision which is leading the bailout of the savings and loan industry. Good night, Robin. Good night, Judy. That's the news hour tonight and we'll be back tomorrow night. I'm Robert McNeil. Good night. Funding for the news hour has been provided by PepsiCo. Every day we enjoy people being cold to us, cutting us up, getting fresh with us, tearing into us, and calling us chicken. In fact, the more people do it, the happier we are, PepsiCo. And by the John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation, a catalyst for change. And by AT&T. And made possible by the financial support of viewers like you and the corporation for public broadcasting.

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