The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour

Intro

JIM LEHRER: Good evening. Leading the news this Wednesday, the Attorney General's commission said pornography causes sex crimes. Terrorists bombs exploded in France and West Germany. And workers stopped the phosphorous fire at the wrecked train in Ohio. We will have the details in our news summary in a moment. Robin?

ROBERT MacNEIL: After the news summary, our main focus is the controversial report of the government pornography commission with its chairman, Henry Hudson, and a critic, Barry Lynn of the ACLU, plus Christie Hefner, president of Playboy, and an anti-Playboy campaigner, the Reverend Donald Wildmon. Then Charlayne Hunter-Gault reports on the recent activities of Amon Msane, the South African black union leader arrested today. News Summary

LEHRER: The Attorney General's commission on pornography did as expected today. It condemned pornography. It did so in a 2,000 page report which claimed there was a connection between hard core pornography and sex crimes against women, and gave 93 recommendations to local state and federal governments for a nationwide crackdown. Attorney General Edwin Meese and Commission Chairman Henry Hudson, a Virginia prosecutor, talked to reporters about the commission's findings.

HENRY HUDSON, chairman, pornography commission: The commission did find a definite correlation between sexually explicit materials in a violent context and certain types of antisocial behavior. We do not believe that the mere reading or consumption of obscenity is itself the sole cause of antisocial behavior or the sole cause of antisocial attitudes. It is merely a factor, but is a significant factor in explaining that behavior.

LEHRER: Meese said the commission's intent was not censorship.

EDWIN MEESE, Attorney General: I am not concerned about any censorship being fostered by this document, because I know that this department, as long as I'm the Attorney General, is not going to engage in censorship in the sense of in any way violates the First Amendment. As you remember, the Supreme Court has said that obscenity -- that illegal activity -- is not the kind of thing that is subject to the protection of the First Amendment. But I can guarantee you that there will be no censorship in the sense that in any way infringing upon First Amendment rights.

LEHRER: The commission drew much criticism during its year of hearings and consultations. Its findings did as well today, the most severe coming from the American Civil Liberties Union.

BARRY LYNN, ACLU: The pornography commission report, in our judgement, does not demonstrate and certainly does not prove that any kind of pornography causes sexual violence. All that this government study really proves is that if you give a biased, pro-censorship commission a half million tax dollars and a year, they will write a very lopsided, pro-censorship report at the end.

LEHRER: Two of the commission's eleven members dissented from the final report, saying the data to prove a relationship between pornography and sex crimes can not be accepted. The dissenters were Women's Day magazine editor Ellen Levine and Columbia University psychologist Judith Becker. Robin?

MacNEIL: There were terrorist bomb attacks in Paris and Munich today, killing a senior French police officer and the research chief of a major West German electronics firm. The Red Army faction group claimed responsibility for the Munich bomb. No one did for the Paris explosion inside police offices near city hall. The German researcher, who was a nuclear physicist, and his chauffeur were killed by a bomb in an armor plated limousine on the way to the Siemens Company plant. The other bombing of the day scattered debris in the street outside a Paris police station and injured 27 people, besides killing the police official. The police said there was no immediate claim of responsibility for the Paris bombing.

Secretary of State Shultz warned journalists today that they bear special obligations in covering terrorists and in getting interviews with them. Speaking to a seminar for foreign journalists, Shultz rejected the idea that terrorism should be fought by dealing with the political problems that cause it.

GEORGE SHULTZ, Secretary of State: This, it seems to me, is a snare and a delusion to fall for this line of reasoning. In defending those who took the Achille Lauro, for instance, they were called by their defense lawyer freedom fighters. That is a bunch of baloney. They weren't advancing freedom by brutalizing the ship's passengers and killing an innocent and crippled man.

MacNEIL: Philippines President Corazon Aquino said she would forgive Arturo Tolentino and others who joined his brief attempt to seize the presidency if they pledge loyalty to her. In the meantime, she barred them from leaving the country and banned demonstrations by Marcos supporters. She didn't say what she'd do if the coup leaders refused to pledge loyalty, but an aide said sedition charges might be filed.

LEHRER: In South Africa today, the government backed off a ban against trade union meetings. A government spokesman in Johannesburg said the order had been issued two days ago in error. Four black unions had filed a court challenge against the action. The government did arrest another leading black labor leader today. He was Amon Msane, who was taken into custody at the Johannesburg airport upon his return from a visit to the United States. State Department spokesman Bernard Kalb was asked in Washington about the Msane case. He said all persons detained under the state of emergency should be released immediately.

MacNEIL: Israel today denied allegations that it smuggled U.S. technology to build its own cluster bombs after Washington banned their sale. Officials of half a dozen U.S. companies and several members of Israel's defense mission in New York were subpoenaed yesterday in an investigation by the customs service and the Justice Department. The Israeli Defense Ministry said Israel produced cluster bombs with its own technology, and that all U.S. equipment used was legally purchased. This new embarrassment to U.S.-Israeli relations follows the recent charges of Israeli spying in the United States.

LEHRER: A railroad tank car filled with phosphorous exploded in the suburbs of Dayton, Ohio, this evening. Residents were ordered to evacuate homes in the area because of toxic fumes. Earlier, firefighters reported they had put out the fire in the derailed car. Crews were working to drag the tanker away from the wreckage, but found white clouds continued to form. Evidently, the fire flared up again when the phosphorous came into contact with the air.

Also today, the Department of Transportation conditionally approved Texas Air Corporation's $676 million purchase of Eastern Airlines. Texas Air owns Continental Airlines and New York Air. The DOT's condition was that New York Air go ahead with its plan to sell New York to Washington shuttle rights to Pan Am, and thus avoid a New York Air-Eastern monopoly on that route.

MacNEIL: Finally in the news, Jeff Sessions, the U.S. attorney from Alabama rejected by the Senate Judiciary Committee for a federal judgeship withdrew his name today. Sessions was opposed by senators who claimed he was racially insensitive -- charges he called false and misleading.

That's our news summary. Coming up, a major analysis of the pornography report and an update on a South African union leader. Taking Aim at Porn

MacNEIL: Our first and major focus tonight is today's report by the Attorney General's commission on pornography. The commission has been controversial since it was named a year ago, and its report is controversial. By concluding that some pornography actually causes violence, it contradicts a 1970 presidential commission that found no such link. In a moment, the chairman of the commission and a supporter debate two critics. First, more background on the report from correspondent June Massell.

JUNE MASSELL: Members of the commission say tough new measures against pornography are necessary, because there's been an explosion in the availability and explicitness of pornography, due in part to the high tech explosion in the marketplace.

[voice-over] The commission report points to videocassettes as one of the major reasons why pornography has proliferated. What used to be available only in X-rated movie theatres is now available in the privacy of one's living room. Last year, consumers rented 75 million adult videotapes. The commission also says cable television has played a role. Not bound by the same regulations governing broadcast television, many cable stations now offer a limited menu of soft core pornography. You can even dial pornographic messages on the telephone.

Voice on phone: I'm Kay from high society, and I'm looking for the perfect gentleman. A gentleman is somebody who respects a lady's wishes, whatsoever she desires.

Rev. BRUCE RITTER, commission on pornography: You simply can not compare where we were in this country in 1970 with where we are now.

MASSELL [voice-over]: Father Bruce Ritter is a member of the Meese commission and head of New York City's Covenant House -- a residence for homeless children.

Rev. RITTER: None of this stuff existed in 1970. You could not find on the open market bestiality. You couldn't find hard core sex. You couldn't find homosexual or lesbian sex. You couldn't find group sex. Group sex as a genre of pornography did not exist.

MASSELL [voice-over]: At the top of the commission's list of concerns is child pornography. While law enforcement has removed child pornography from the bookstores, it's still available through underground channels.

Rev. RITTER: The unhappy reality is that here in New York State, it is legal for a 16-year-old boy or girl to make a porn film. They can't drink, drive or vote. They can't get on welfare. They can't find work. They can't get into a hotel or motel. But they can legally make a porn film.

MASSELL [voice-over]: More than half of the commission's recommendations are targeted at child pornography, such as new laws which would prohibit producers of pornography from using performers under the age of 21, make the knowing possession of child pornography a felony, make the conspiracy to produce, distribute or exhibit child pornography a felony. The Meese commission held hearings in six cities over the course of a year, taking testimony from more than 200 witnesses -- many of them so-called victims of pornography.

Man: The fantasy there created a very high stimulus. I did act out some of these things with prostitutes.

MASSELL [voice-over]: A majority of the commissioners found that certain types of pornography may lead to violent behavior.

Rev. RITTER: It was clear to the commission that there was sufficient evidence from social science to establish a causal link between sexually explicit material that was violent and violence against women. We had no problem whatsoever establishing that link. And I think a careful reading of our findings and of the social science evidence will establish that.

MASSELL: Traditionally, obscenity laws have been based on the idea that pornography is offensive and attacks community values. The commission's finding that some pornography may also lead to violent behavior offers a new and controversial rationale for restricting pornography.

[voice-over] It also contradicts what the last presidential commission on pornography found in 1970. That panel found no link between pornography and violent behavior.

DON BYRNE, psychologist: No one in any way -- in any scientific way -- has established a cause and effect relationship.

MASSELL [voice-over]: Don Byrne is a psychologist at the State University of New York in Albany. He conducted research for the 1970 commission and also testified before the Meese commission.

Mr. BYRNE: I would say the report is incorrect. And I would say that anybody who's engaged in the research -- psychologists, sociologists and others -- would agree with what I just said -- that there has been no link established.

MASSELL [voice-over]: Critics say the Meese commission was set up as part of a right wing agenda to launch a national crusade against pornography, even if it means trampling First Amendment guarantees of free speech. As proof, they point to a letter sent by the commission's executive director to a number of stores selling adult magazines. The letter stated, "The commission received testimony alleging that your company is involved in the sale or distribution of pornography." The letter offered the company an opportunity to respond before identifying it in the report.

The implied threat had an effect. Southland Corporation, the owner of 7-Eleven stores, removed all copies ofPlayboy and Penthouse from the shelves. But there are other recent indications that the public may not bow so easily.

[clip from TV commercial]

Announcer: 1982: 348 children sexually abused in Maine.

MASSELL [voice-over]: Last month in Maine, supporters of stricter obscenity laws squared off against anti-censorship groups in a battle of television commercials. The issue was a referendum calling for stricter laws. The voters of Maine, a Republican and generally conservative state, voted three to one against the stricter laws.

LEHRER: We hear first now from the chairman of the Meese commission. He is Henry Hudson, a Virginia prosecutor who has just been named by President Reagan as the United States Attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia with offices in Alexandria.

Mr. Hudson, what do you consider your commission's most significant findings?

Mr. HUDSON: I think the central issue before the commission was the harmful effects of certain types of materials. To the extent that I think we were able to establish a definite causal link between obscenity that is sexually explicit and violent and certain types of antisocial behavior -- and I think the centerpiece of the entire report is our findings that materials that portray abuse of children and violence and humiliation of women are harmful -- to the extent we identify that and ask law enforcement agencies everywhere to make those priorities, those are some of the most significant parts of our report.

LEHRER: What caused you personally to believe that there is this effect -- there is this cause and effect relationship?

Mr. HUDSON: All right. One of the popular misconceptions is that our findings were based solely on scientific data. If we relied only on the body of scientific research, we'd be inconclusive on every issue, because there's a real scarcity. We relied upon the totality of the evidence heard -- the evidence from attorneys, physicians, behavioral scientists, concerned citizens, law enforcement officials. Looking at the scientific research, there seems to be a thread that this type of material breeds aggressive behavior and that one of the explanations for that aggressive behavior is certain types of violent obscenity. Coupling that with the testimony of law enforcement officials about the number of cases that they've had where people have admitted to them -- convicted child molesters, convicted sexual abusers -- that they utilized this type of material prior to committing an act -- and antisocial and legal act. The testimony of the numerous victims before the commission about how their life had been affected. The testimony of a number of physicians and people in the therapeutic type of practice that had encountered this type of correlation. Based upon the totality of the evidence, we drew that conclusion. But we also used common sense in analyzing the evidence too.

LEHRER: Did this surprise you, or did you believe this before the commission's work ever began?

Mr.HUDSON: Well, I had seen an awful lot of information from law enforcement agencies about this type of material being seized in connection with these types of cases, and people convicted of these types of offenses admitting the use of these types of materials. I was not able, though, to draw a definite correlation until I reviewed all of the evidence. And at the conclusion of those hearings, I'm confident that that causal link exists.

LEHRER: As you realize -- I'm sure you realize some of your critics have suggested that most -- the majority of you commissioners had already made up your minds before you began work, and you made sure the evidence that you brought in confirmed your preconceived conclusion.

Mr. HUDSON: Well, that was a familiar criticism that we heard. And I invited our detractors to attend some of our work sessions and see the spirited debate that we had. I think if you read the personal comments that precede the textual portion of the report, I think you will see that there is a wide diversity of opinion and a wide diversity of background represented on this commission. I don't think the deck was stacked. I don't think it was a biased commission by any means. I mean, two people dissented. A number of them have criticized aspects of the process we used. So I think we had the diversity necessary for a balanced report.

LEHRER: How do you explain the discrepancy between the findings of the 1970 commission -- that was a presidential commission which worked at it much longer and spent a lot more money than your commission this year.

Mr. HUDSON: I think we're studying different materials. There have been radical changes in obscenity between 1970 and 1986. As we point out in the report, these materials are far more sexually explicit. They're far more violent in tone, and far more accessible to the public in 1986 than they were in 1970. So we were studying, I think, a different type of material in a different era. I don't know whether or not the two reports are as analogous as some people would contend that they are.

LEHRER: As an attorney, are you concerned at all about the charge that what you all are suggesting now is censorship?

Mr. HUDSON: Well, I think that a lot of our detractors were very disappointed with the report that I filed today with Attorney General Meese. Most of them thought that it was going to advocate censorship. I think we reject the censorship. And we rejected the notion of banning any publications. The bottom line of our report is that existing laws ought to be enforced. If you feel there's a problem with obscenity in your neighborhood, we didn't recommend that the definition of obscenity be modified in any way. As a matter of fact, with respect to certain types of material that deal strictly with the printed word, with the exception of those tht are instructive of how to abuse children or how to molest children, we recommend a tremendous amount of caution be exercised in the prosecution of those types of cases, because the printed word really has a very special place in our society and is deserving of the greatest amount of First Amendment protection.

LEHRER: From your perspective -- you spent a near now doing this. You've issued your report today. What would have to happen now for you to consider your work a success?

Mr. HUDSON: Well, I would hope, and I believe that Mr. Meese will seriously consider our recommendations. I hope that it satisfies the mandate that he gave me. And I hope that those suggestions will be implemented by the Department of Justice and other federal agencies.

LEHRER: I mean, but do you -- are you looking for the day, as a result of this work that you did, that there -- that this kind of pornography will cease to exist, etc., etc., etc?

Mr. HUDSON: Well, I don't feel like I'm a person with a national mission, but I am concerned about materials, sir, that are -- portray sexual abuse of children and violence and degradation toward women. I think that's a real problem, and I think some materials are harmful. Those materials that bear on those harms, I would like to see stepped up enforcement. And I would hope as a result of this report we see that.

LEHRER: Thank you. Robin?

MacNEIL: As we've heard, the Meese commission has drawn fire from many civil liberties groups, particularly the American Civil Liberties Union. Barry Lynn is the ACLU's legislative counsel.

Mr. Lynn, you've been critical of this commission for a long time now. You've just heard the chairman say the deck was not stacked. It was not a biased commission.

Mr. LYNN: Well, I did in fact take up Mr. Hudson's challenge to go and watch this commission. And I literally watched all of their business sessions. And frankly, they were a stacked deck. In fact, at least seven members of this commission, long before their appointment to the commission, had clear pro-censorship biases. They were against pornography, and they knew it, and they wanted to get rid of it. When you combine that with the fact that the commission heard from 77% of its witnesses as representatives of anti-pornography groups or anti-pornography viewpoints, when you mix those two factors together and then look at the -- I would call it sloppy way in which this commission evaluated the evidence, particularly the scientific evidence, I'd say you have a report that literally could have been written two days after the commission was appointed, would have reached precisely the same conclusions and would have saved the American people a half million dollars to boot.

MacNEIL: On the censorship issue, the chairman just said that critics like you detractors would be disappointed because it does not recommend censorship.

Mr. LYNN: Well, I was disappointed, believe me, in this report. Because in fact, you know, you can call anything anything. Mr. Hudson could say that the sky is red. It wouldn't make it red. He can say that this is not about censorship. But it is about censorship. In fact, whenever you use the powers of the state or federal government to punish, to criminalize, to imprison people who sell certain kinds of sexually explicit material, that is censorship. It means using the power of the state ultimately to tell people what they can produce, what they can photograph, and what they can read or watch. That's censorship, I think, by any reasonable definition.

MacNEIL: What in the report itself concerns you most?

Mr. LYNN: I think the comments of Father Ritter in the intro piece were very disturbing, because they suggest what many suggest -- that there is scientific data to support to conclusion that certain kinds of pornography cause sexual violence. I think Mr. Hudson was a bit franker. He said, "You know, we couldn't prove it with science. So what we did was to take the totality of the evidence and add it to some common sense." I'd call that the anything goes approach to proving your point. You take a little dollop of social science jargon, you add it to a dash of feminist rhetoric, add in a little religious and moral values, glob it all together and come up with the conclusion that pornography causes sex crimes. But in fact, common sense tells us quite the opposite.

MacNEIL: Well, I was going to ask you how you are so sure, if the evidence is so muddy, that it does not.

Mr. LYNN: I think that we restrict material in this country normally -- unless it happens to be about sex -- on the basis of does it present a clear and present danger for the generation of antisocial behavior? Does it create the imminent likelihood that there will be antisocial conduct caused by the material? And there is not one shred of social science evident to suggest that this material causes many, if any, people to go out and commit acts of sexual violence. In fact, most people have seen in their lives -- men and women -- they've seen pornography. This commission spent an entire year looking at pornography. I spent a year looking at pornography with them. I don't think any of us have been turned down the road to deviance or criminality because of our exposure to this material. Frankly, there are many abusive men in this country. They didn't become abusive because they looked at pornography. And more importantly, if we were to take away every bit of pornography that this commission condemns in this report, this country would not be one bit safer for my children or any woman that's walking the streets of this country.

MacNEIL: But if the report's recommendations were fully implemented, how would the civil liberties of this country be infringed, in your view?

Mr. LYNN: Well, ultimately we'd be sent back into a kind of sexual dark age where Americans are literally afraid to write, publish or photograph anything about human sexual conduct. Mr. Hudson talks about child abuse and violent pornography. That isn't even most of what is out there in the universe of sexually explicit material. And moreover, the report actually condemns not just what you would find in adults only establishments or in that little corner of the video shop that says for adults only. They condemn much that is on even mainstream television as constituting the most harmful form of pornography, because it combines sexual situations with violence. I'd say any government commission that views all of this material, including popular television programs, as the most harmful kind of pornography is not a commission in tune with what America wants. Because on balance, I think the voters of this country would do just what the voters of Maine did if they could vote on this report. They'd say, "We don't want the government in our libraries. We don't want them in our house telling us what we can read about sex, think about sex, or do about sex."

MacNEIL: Thank you. Jim?

LEHRER: Next, a supporter of the commission, its work and its findings. He is the Reverend Donald Wildmon, executive director of the National Federation for Decency. Reverend Wildmon, was there anything in this report that surprised you?

Rev. DONALD WILDMON, National Federation for Decency: To be honest with you, I have not read the report. All I know is what I've seen of it. So I can't accurately answer that question.

LEHRER: Well, based on what Mr. Hudson said he found -- what the commission found -- as far as the correlation between pornography and sex crimes. Does that surprise you?

Rev. WILDMON: No, it does not.

LEHRER: You already believed that to be the case.

Rev. WILDMON: Well, I have had some experience in this from people who have contacted us who've given us their testimony that they had been involved inpornography. They started out with soft core porn like Playboy, Penthouse. It would progress into more and more. Gary Bishop, convicted of killing four boys between ages, I think, of 4 and 13 in Salt Lake City, said that pornography was the thing that -- his catalyst. He was a pedophile. I mean, this goes over and over and over again.

LEHRER: So what do you say to Mr. Lynn when he says there is not a shred of social science evidence?

Rev. WILDMON: He's wrong.

LEHRER: He is wrong?

Rev. WILDMON: Mm-hmm. There may -- I don't know -- I'm not a social scientist. I can't say -- I'm not an academic. But there may not be -- I think Dolph Zalemand and Janice Bryan both would disagree with him. They are. But from my perspective -- from where I come from -- I know there is a relation between the two.

LEHRER: What do you say when Mr. Lynn says if you take away all the pornography, the streets of America aren't going to be any safer for his children or the women of America.

Rev. WILDMON: I think Barry makes a lot of statements. And sometimes he makes some statements -- in fact onNightline the other night, he made a statement that there never has been nor never will be a study showing this. Never will be, he said. So I think Barry sometimes makes statements that are kind of superfluous.

LEHRER: But your position is that if you were to take away this kind of pornography, the end result would be what?

Rev. WILDMON: I think we'll have a much better society in which to live and raise our children.

LEHRER: In what way? Flesh that out, please.

Rev. WILDMON: In what way? In that the way that we would treat humans as humans again -- that there would be a better view of for what women are -- are for family relationships. I get a lot of correspondence that families have gone through. "Because my husband got involved in porn" or "My wife got involved in porn," and this, this, this. I think it'd be -- we'd have stronger families. I think we'd have safer streets. Rape has gone up 700% in the last 40 years or so, according to Dr. Victor Klein, University of Utah. So I think it would be a much safer place.

LEHRER: You mentioned Playboy and Penthouse magazines. You -- you kind of triggered this controversy that's been referred to by testifying before the commission about the Southland Corporation, etc., and they took their magazines off the -- Playhouse -- Playboy and Penthouse off the stands. Is it your position that Playboy and Penthouse are hard core pornography?

Rev. WILDMON: No, no, no, no. They're -- in many cases, they would not even be obscene, according to the legal definition. I never said they were obscene. Now, Penthouse has been found in court being obscene two or three or four cases. Playboy has not. When you use the word pornography and you use the word obscenity, you use two different words. Pornography is a generic term. It's a street term.

LEHRER: Well, what do you think -- what I'm getting at is, what do you think should be done about those kinds of magazines?

Rev. WILDMON: Playboy and Penthouse?

LEHRER: Yeah.

Rev. WILDMON: I think that what in essence we're doing is probably the most effective thing. I think these magazines, obviously, are the breeding point for your hard core stuff. They obviously aren't hard core magazines. You mentioned the letter in Southland, and I found a lot of interesting things here, especially in the media and I was listening there to the report that came in -- that the letter triggered their pulling off the magazines. What has not been told in the media is that prior to Southland pulling the magazines, 10,000 stores had already pulled the magazines prior to that point that we had been picketing and boycotting and demonstrating in front of -- Southland stores across the country -- for two and a half years. So I -- to -- this whole thing, you know, seems to be that there was a letter went out. I didn't know anything about it. I read something about it in the paper -- had no connection with it whatsoever. But that letter went out, and because that letter went out these stores pulled the porn. That's as far from the truth as you can get.

LEHRER: All right. Thank you. Robin?

MacNEIL: Finally, we have Christie Hefner, president of Playboy Enterprises, which publishes Playboy magazine.

Ms. Hefner, first of all, Reverend Wildmon says Playboy and Penthouse are the breeding point for the hard core stuff. And he described you first of all as -- your magazine -- as soft core porn.

CHRISTIE HEFNER, Playboy Enterprises: Well, I think the 15 million men and women who read Playboy every month would understandably take umbrage at the notion that their reading of a magazine that features the President of the United States' son as a contributing editor and won the best fiction award and has for 33 years published nonviolent, tasteful photographs somehow has led them into an obsession with hard core pornography. The fact is that the magazine has been around since 1953, and this notion that's sometimes perpetrated that people interested in eroticism will lead them into an interest in more explicit material is not supported by the majority of people in this country's own personal experiences.

MacNEIL: What about his point that it wasn't the letter from the commission to Southland Corporation that made them pull your magazine and Penthouse off the shelves. It was the picketing over a long term by his organization.

Ms. HEFNER: Well, there was just a court case filed by Playboy and the American Booksellers Association on the very issue of the letter, and last week Federal Justice Penn ruled that the commission had exceeded its charter and had clearly infringed upon the First Amendment rights of Playboy and other publishers, and that it was, in the judges words, ironic, to say the least, about in spite of all this picketing, the decision to pull the magazines immediately followed the receipt of the letter from the commission.

MacNEIL: What is your problem with the pornography report -- the commission report?

Ms. HEFNER: Well, I think, having listened to first Chairman Hudson and then Donald Wildmon, the real danger of the report becomes very clear. Chairman Hudson likes to focus on things like violent pornography and child abuse and pornography, which I think the majority of citizens are opposed to. But the reality is that the report far goes beyond that, as evidenced by statements made by Donald Wildmon. What the report does is condemn everything that has a sexual content in it, allows commissioners to treat as harms -- and therefore deserving of some consideration -- such activities as premarital sex. Moreover, calls for a kind of a citizen vigilantism against not just obscene material, but material that might be considered pornographic and, nevertheless, not obscene. And the kind of activities that Wildmon has engaged in, which reflect the imposition of a minority's viewpoint on the majority of citizens, is exactly the kind of thing that I think may be legitimized by this report.

MacNEIL: Are there sexually explicit materials that you, as the publisher ofPlayboy, think should be banned?

Ms. HEFNER: I don't think that in this country that there is any reason to believe that material that involves adults is justified to be banned. And I think one of the things that we lose sight of as Americans is how very different the open attitudes towards nudity and sexuality are in Japan and in Europe. And yet, in those countries, the rate of violent crimes and sexual crimes is not higher than here, but lower. I think the 1970 presidential recommendations, which were confirmed as recently as 1984 by a Department of Justice study in Canada, are the only logical public policy recommendations. And the great tragedy here is that the real issues of violence and of the need for sex education and the need for federal funding for offenders' programs is being blurred by a political document that basically focuses on an issue of sex.

MacNEIL: But Father Ritter, whom we saw interviewed earlier, and the chairman say that conditions have changed drastically since 1970. You heard that pornography is rampant. It has become a great deal more violent, and so on.

Ms. HEFNER: Well, there's no evidence presented in the report that it's become more violent. And the only two studies that I'm aware of -- one by the Kinsey Institute and one by Dr. Joseph Scott of Ohio University -- indicate that less than 10% of X-rated films and cassettes, for example, are violent. And that's a significantly smaller percentage than R or PG rated films. If we were really looking at violence, wouldn't it make more sense to be looking at film and images and magazines devoted to violence? I think violence is used, like pornography, as a propaganda word, because we're all concerned about it. And then there's a little bit of a soft shoe and a shuffle, and all of a sudden we're talking about Playboy magazine.

MacNEIL: Okay. Jim?

LEHRER: Back to you first, Mr. Hudson. You heard what Ms. Hefner said -- basically what you have produced is a political document that advocates imposing a minority viewpoint on the majority. I think I paraphrased her correctly.

Mr. HUDSON: Well, I think it's important at this point to define the term censorship as it's being used by Ms. Hefner and by Mr. Lynn. In their view, any type of restriction of materials of any type is censorship. They think our existing laws are censorship. So any type of opinion that we came up with short of a total relaxation of all laws would be censorship. I think it's also important to point --

LEHRER: Wait a minute. Let me just ask Mr. Lynn. Is that correct, Mr. Lynn?

Mr. LYNN: Well, I certainly think that existing laws are censorial, and they help to create a sensor's mentality in the country. In fact, Mr. Hudson, as a local prosecutor in Arlington County, Virginia, prosecuted one or two video dealers for renting X-rated material. And guess what happened? He didn't have to prosecute the third or the fourth or the fifth, because everybody in the county to this day has pulled the material from the shelves anyway.

LEHRER: But he --

Mr. LYNN: That's essentially the effect of censorship.

LEHRER: But he's essentially right, isn't he? I mean, from your perspective, any kind of government restraint on any of this material is censorship to you.

Mr. LYNN: I think that is not only what it is, but that's what the framers of our Constitution expected us to always consider it.

LEHRER: I think we have one brief split second of agreement. Go ahead, Mr. Hudson.

Mr. HUDSON: One other thing, Mr. Lehrer, I want to make clear. A lot of the critics think that our report focuses on publications like Playboy and Penthouse, and that is totally untrue. The focal point of our report is, as I mentioned, materials that are abusive of children and portary of women in violent and degrading situations. Those are the harmful --

Mr. LYNN: But Henry --

Mr. HUDSON: Let me finish my answer, Mr. Lynn.

LEHRER: All right, Mr. Lynn.

Mr. HUDSON: Those are the ones which I think are deserving of government priority and strong government enforcement.

LEHRER: All right, but what about Ms. Hefner's point that the letter that went out from your commission infringed -- and the judges held -- infringed on the First Amendment rights of her magazine.

Mr. HUDSON: Unfortunately, that's a matter of litigation which I can not comment on. I mean, I'm the named defendant in that suit, and I don't think it's an appropriate area for me to comment on.

Mr. LYNN: Can I just respond to something that Henry said? He talks about this world of pornography as if there was some small section of it that he's worried about that is violent and degrading.The report issued today actually says that there is essentially no pornography in America that is not either violent or degrading -- that the category of sexually explicit but non-degrading material -- which they would like to prosecute even if it exists -- the report says it doesn't even exist. Yet their own study, which I have seen a copy of but which mysteriously has vanished from the final report, shows that not just in Ms. Hefner's magazine or Mr. Guccione's, but in the top 13 selling -- best selling men's magazines, only .6% of the visual imagery had anything to do with forced rape or violence. As soon as the staff conducted that study -- found that it didn't comport with the preconceptions of the chairman and Mr. Meese and others -- that study has disappeared from the final report. That's a big surprise, a big shock, and I think a disgrace.

LEHRER: Mr. Hudson?

Mr. HUDSON: If Mr. Lynn's familiar with this information, I am not. I did not see any such report.

Mr. LYNN: Didn't you read the drafts of the report? I read them all. I think you were responsible for reading them all, and you know that study was there and that it's not included in the final report.

LEHRER: Obviously we're not going to clear that up.Reverend Wildmon, what about Ms. Hefner's point that, in your case also -- that you have a minority view on pornography, and that you are trying to impose it on the majority through your picketing and other actions.

Rev. WILDMON: I think she's wrong.

LEHRER: Why is she wrong?

Rev. WILDMON: Because I don't --

LEHRER: You think you --

Rev. WILDMON: You asked me what I think about it.

LEHRER: Yeah.

Rev. WILDMON: Obviously, there's no kind of hard information that she or I, either one, can present here. But what I'm saying is that from my perspective of the general public of Americans, I think she's wrong. And I think we could not exist -- for instance -- we are nonprofit. We couldn't put 12,000 people in front of Southland Corporation, we couldn't picket 600 7-Eleven stores, we couldn't exist unless there was some support -- significant support -- for what we say.

LEHRER: Ms. Hefner?

Ms. HEFNER: Well, I think there is ample evidence -- not just the main referendum, which was referred to in your report, but more recently a store took the more responsible action of actually asking its customers to indicate how they felt about the availability of magazines such as Playboy. And that was the Lawsons chain. And not surprisingly, by a significant majority, its customers indicated that they either had no objection or they supported the availability of the material.I think part of what some people, such as Mr. Wildmon, find objectionable is the very fact that attitudes toward sexual material have changed in this country. The fact that 75 million adult cassettes were rented last year, which is more than the number of people who voted for President Reagan, indicates to me that a large number of Americans find the availability of sexual material -- whether it's in cassette form or magazine form -- not only not objectionable, but a part of the entertainment of their life. I think there are some people who themselves find that objectionable, and I would say to those people, don't buy Playboy magazine. Don't rent an adult cassette. But in fact, what those people really believe is that they alone know what's right for other adults, and they want to impose it.

LEHRER: Do you feel that way, Mr. Hudson -- that you know what's best? Is she talking to you when she says that?

Mr. HUDSON: I don't know. I don't purport to be able to tell people what they should and should not read. My mission as chairman of this commission was to determine the behavioral effects of certain types of materials and make recommendations on law enforcement. That's what I see this report as doing. I don't believe this commission in any way saw itself in a censorship role. I think we specifically rejected that. And furthermore, with respect to what Ms. Hefner has described as our call to action on the part of citizens, if you carefully read that portion of the report, you'll find that we first of all asked citizens if they feel they have a problem with obscenity -- materials that are not protected under the First Amendment -- in their community. If they find such a problem, then we delineated for them some of the successful techniques that have been used in --

Mr. LYNN: That's simply not correct, Henry. You suggest in the report --

LEHRER: Just one -- let me -- what I'm -- the point that Ms. Hefner just made -- that the mores have changed in this country. The reason that there's more pornography available is because the American people want it and use it and enjoy it. Did you do any study along that line?

Mr. HUDSON: Well, we did not. Our commission was not permitted to do any independent research. We had to rely strictly upon what was available. And the bottom line of all obscenity enforcement is community standards. If the community does not feel that obscenity's a problem or they don't feel that a certain publication offends their standards, then they simply don't prosecute, or they don't take any type of remedial action.

LEHRER: What's wrong with that attitude, Ms. Hefner?

Ms. HEFNER: Well, I would like the chairman to indicate on the record to be consistent with the positions he is expressing here, which are not, as I understand them, some of the opinions expressed in the report -- that he, for example, would disagree with the National Federation for Decency's efforts to remove from the availability to adults Playboy magazine -- a magazine that, in the commission's own words, is clearly non-obscene.I think the ability to misread the report and for it to be misinterpreted, if that's what it is, so that it would in fact legitimize activities like Donald Wildmon's, which now includes, I'm told by convenience store marketers, a crusade against the National Lampoon. I'm also aware that a chain called Walmart has recently, under local pressure, removed all music magazines, including Rolling Stone. There is a climate that's been created here, which is why I believe Judge Penn ruled against the commission in our suit, that far exceeds the narrow categories that the chairman is referring to in his testimony here. And if this commission wants to be intellectually honest, then either it or the Attorney General should much more clearly separate out nonviolent and non-child pornography from its concerns than it has so far.

LEHRER: Mr. Hudson?

Mr. HUDSON: I think the report discusses each category of materials. We divided the materials into five categories. We presented our findings with respect to each one of those and our recommendations. The final decision with respect to whether or not to purchase an item or whether or not to carry it on the shelf resides with the individual. And as far as the type of activities that Mr. Wildmon is suggesting -- the boycotts and the citizen action -- that's a decision these communities got to make on their own in each decision on the part of each citizen. I think we have to remember sometimes that the right of these people to express their opinion is coextensive with the right of the individuals to publish the materials.

LEHRER: He's right, is he not, Mr. Lynn?

Mr. LYNN: Well, he's --

LEHRER: Isn't the right of Mr. Wildmon the same as the right of the --

Mr. LYNN: Right. Of course he has a right to boycott and picket, but everything that you can do doesn't necessarily mean that you should do it. And I think it is always wrong to use the picketing and boycotting powers that Mr. Wildmon espouses against books on bookshelves or videos in video stores. It's unwise. And Mr. Hudson suggested that what they really wanted to do was to remove obscene material but not go after anything else. These citizen vigilante groups are directed in this report, and it is said to them, "It is okay for you to go after that which is constitutionally protected -- that that we couldn't get in a court of law, but go out and picket, boycott, and drive it out of town anyway."

LEHRER: Is that the message you're getting, Reverend Wildmon, from the commission?

Rev. WILDMON: Barry said something. He said what's right to do is not what we should do, or something to that effect just at that time -- that we have the right to do what we're doing. but we shouldn't do it. Gee whiz. On page 159 of the August issue of Playboy magazine, which is Ms. Hefner's magazine, there's an article referring to Mr. Lynn, and I quote, as a "one man truth squad." Seems like to me from what I'm hearing here from what she said about her moral superiority and what he's saying about we don't have the right to picket or boycott, that indeed he is a one man truth squad.

Mr. LYNN: I never said you didn't have the right. I never would tell anybody --

Rev. WILDMON: You said we shouldn't do it. We may have the right, but we shouldn't do it.

Mr. LYNN: I said it was an unwise use of the powers to --

Rev. WILDMON: Then blacks shouldn't get out and --

Mr. Lynn: I didn't say that blacks shouldn't. I'm saying --

Rev. WILDMON: Well, this is the same principle.

Mr. LYNN: No it is not. No it is not.

Rev. WILDMON: Yes it is the same principle.

Mr.LYNN: No, you're imposition of the morality of your organization on the rest of America is not the same thing as blacks urging the right to vote or the right to eat in a restaurant.

Rev. WILDMON: It's the same thing.

Mr. LYNN: It is absolutely not. We are talking here about two entirely different issues, and I'd be happy to tell many of America's pornographers it would be unwise, even though I defend their right to do it, it would be unwise to produce bestiality magazines too. But they have the right to do it.

LEHRER: Do you -- you're going to go right out tomorrow and do what you're -- continue to do what you're doing, Mr. Wildmon.

Rev. WILDMON: Absolutely. And if Ms. Hefner sayd it's wrong and I don't have a right to do it, there's a court of law. And all you have to do is go to the court of law. You know, if I'm breaking the First Amendment -- she accuses me and these others of breaking the First Amendment -- that's illegal. Take me to court.

LEHRER: All right. We got to take it away right now. Ms. Hefner in New York, thank you. Reverend Wildmon, Mr. Hudson, Mr. Lynn, thank you. Crusader Against Apartheid

MacNEIL: As we reported in the news summary, the black South African union leader Amon Msane was arrested today under the emergency regulations when he returned from a visit to the United States. Charlayne Hunter-Gault tells his story.

CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT [voice-over]: It all started here -- a symbolic half day walkout by workers at the 3M manufacturing plant near Johannesburg. This Zulu cry -- power to the people -- is often heard at rallies throughout South Africa. But this time was different. For the first time ever, black South Africans were talking about power for workers thousands of miles away -- in the United States -- their counterparts in the 3M tape manufacturing plant in Freehold, New Jersey. The South Africa worker strike was organized by shop steward Amon Msane.

AMON MSANE, labor leader: We urge you to pledge the 3M management in USA to reverse their decision to close the 3M plant as it is still not too late.

HUNTER-GAULT [voice-over]: That was in February of this year. In May, the Freehold, New Jersey, plant closed when management insisted that it was inefficient and that it would cost too much to modernize it. More than 300 workers lost their jobs. But that was not the end of the story. The idea of connecting South African workers and American workers was starting to take hold in places like Geismar, Louisiana.In the heart of the Louisiana bayou, the South Africa strike set the stage for what unionists hoped would be a new era in labor tactics and strategy. It is a variation on an old theme -- workers of the world unite. But it had a different ring to it when Amon Msane brought it from South Africa.

Mr. MSANE: I greet you in the name of all the freedom loving people of our country. People of America have helped us a lot. They have fed the company in Africa. And therefore we need to show some gratitude. So we felt we must. And therefore we had to declare[unintelligible] as workers and revive the old subject of what is an injury to one is an injury to all.

HUNTER-GAULT [voice over]: Throughout the month Msane and Freehold labor leader Stanley Fisher toured the country. Geismar is the scene of one of the bitterest labor disputes in the country. Union workers at a local chemical plant run by a West German company -- BASF -- have just entered their third year of a lockout. Dick Leonard, a national representative for the union, told the rally why it was important to enlist people like Msane in their American struggle.

DICK LEONARD, union representative: Strikes generally, as a rule, in the last six or eight years have become outmoded. They're no longer a proper response to situations like this. Especially in states like Louisiana where we're facing unemployment in excess of 14%. When the employees of 3M in South Africa -- at a plant in South Africa -- walked off their jobs for four hours in protest over the closure of the Freehold facility, and this has got to stand testament to the real meaning of international solidarity.

HUNTER-GAULT [voice-over]: Solidarity took on a new meaning at this point, when it turned out that back in South Africa the government had just declared a state of emergency. In an effort to control events relating to the tenth anniversary of the Soweto riots -- a bitter memory for black South Africa -- police had begun rounding up many of the country's black activist leaders, among them many union officials.Msane had just learned that shortly after one in the morning police went to his home. By this time the entire bargaining unit at his 3M plant in South Africa was either arrested or in hiding. He shared this information at the rally.

Mr. MSANE: And they searched my house, and they took all the articles that I'm having. So in other words, when I leave the United States and go back to South Africa, I will fly from the United States directly into jail.

Man: This man is facing a jail sentence. In fact, he doesn't know whether he's going to get out of jail, whether he's going to even live when he steps off the plane going back home. But he is doing this for us. If that man going all the way back, then damn it, we're going to stand up for him then.

HUNTER-GAULT [voice-over]: The following night, Msane, appearing on the MacNeil-Lehrer News Hour, confronted the highest South African officials in this country about his future.

Mr. MSANE: I want Mr. Ambassador to assure me that when I go to South Africa -- because I have been in American for more than a month now -- if I go to South Africa, I won't board a plane here and land in jail.

Amb. HERBERT BEUKES, South Africa: Well, I can not give reassurance, because I don't know what he has been doing. If he has been a law abiding citizen, I respect him. If he says he has done it, then I don't think that there will be a need to be concerned.

MacNEIL: We have to leave it there. Mr. Msane in New Orleans, thank you. Mr. Ambassador in Washington, thank you.

HUNTER-GAULT [voice-over]: From all appearances, Msane was not overly concerned about it.

Mr. MSANE: People of America, please lend me your ears. I greet you in the name of the exploited workers of South Africa.

HUNTER-GAULT [voice-over]: Linking the labor and anti-apartheid movements, one of Msane's biggest platforms was at this anti-apartheid rally in New York City attended by thousands.

Mr. MSANE: We are not going to surrender until we are sure that apartheid will never rise again and the people of South Africa will live in peace and harmony forever.

It is clear that it's only when the trade unions start to be reformist trade unions and become political unions too, so that they could be in a position of assisting in fighting together with other political organizations in defeating this apartheid in South Africa. And this, as a result, has caused many of them -- of the trade unions getting detained and all that, because they are a more forceful group than any other political organization than we have had before. Because they have more muscle. They are more stronger to challenge the system than any other organization.

HUNTER-GAULT [voice-over]: Friends and colleagues tried to persuade Msane not to go back to South Africa, at least not until the air was a little clearer. But he said he was worried about his family -- his wife and three small children.

Mr. MSANE: They are frightened. In other words, they are so uncertain of the night -- especially during the night -- they're very frightened during the night, because the police usually come at 1:00 a.m. with those loud knocks and all that. So each time they sleep, they think they will be coming again -- you know, they'll be coming.

HUNTER-GAULT: Have you done anything wrong -- anything that might, in South African terms, be considered illegal?

Mr. MSANE: I have committed no crime in as far as I'm concerned, because I'm just an anti-apartheid activist. But maybe in the South African terms to be against apartheid is a crime. In other words, maybe I'm just supposed to keep quiet -- to sit down and abide by the rules and regulations of apartheid and never stand up and fight.So maybe that is the most serious crime that I have committed so far.

HUNTER-GAULT [voice-over]: I asked Msane if he thought there was any way he could protect himself once he got back

Mr. MSANE: There is no way that I can protect myself. In other words, the situation is bad. So I find myself in this where there is no way in which I can escape. I see now way in which I can escape from this.

HUNTER-GAULT: A. U.S. State Department official in South Africa told the News Hour today that police there told him no charges had been filed against Msane and that he had been detained under emergency regulations. South African Ambassador Beukes declined to come on the program tonight.

MacNEIL: Once again, the main stories of the day. The Attorney General's commission reported that some hard core pornography can cause sex crimes. Terror bombings took three lives in France and Germany. A railroad tank car exploded after sending out toxic fumes in the suburbs of Dayton, Ohio, and residents were ordered to evacuate homes nearby. Good night, Jim.

LEHRER: Good night, Robin. We'll see you tomorrow night. I'm Jim Lehrer. Thank you and good night.