The MacNeil/Lehrer Report; Cambodia Falls

and states take now of reasons that the united nations is that that happens is a vivid memory the pain funding for this program has been provided by the station and other

public television stations and by grants from exxon corporation allied chemical corporation and the corporation for public broadcasting he's beaming weeks before anything as you know from today's headlines the government of cambodia or temperature is that college was overthrown yesterday in one of the shortest wars in modern history after a thirteen day campaign cambodian rebels backed by units of the vietnamese army seized the capital non pen and today claimed control over most of the country woke up the cambodian premier fled with his government they're now believed to hold a small corner in the northwest near the town of cme rap

it was immediately replaced by a revolutionary council headed by a defector from his own government hang simon the new leaders claimed they would restore democratic rights in cambodia and traditions including the buddhist religion which had been erased and pol pots drastic program of forced realization the swift change in the situation sprint the world's two leading communist nations vietnam's i was in moscow fail that victory as a liberation while picking which supports cambodia deplore the vietnamese takeover the situation is deeply alarmed the countries of southeast asia impact was immediately fell to neighboring thailand which received scores of foreign diplomats escaping from lumpkin is a report today from those news reporter mark left in thailand within a few hours of the announcement a plan under the rebel forces the district officer has come around to the thai border village of undercut that was crammed with hundreds of foreign embassy staff and chinese technicians started coming across the border from neighboring province at first like televisions that most of those who crossed

the border were chinese including north korea official word on the whereabouts of coventry and prime minister and other leaders of his government in bangkok time prime minister agree on fed chairman on so they may still be in the country perhaps on the west bank of the mekong river where fighting continues maintaining that and some humans have been strengthened jose the khmer rouge government flag hasn't flown for two or three days on the other side of the border the prime minister that he didn't think he'd get the main sort of a korean forces were protestant anyone to use the situation also creates a delicate problem for the

united states the carter administration appealed today to both moscow and picking not to intervene militarily tonight the meeting and the consequences of vietnam's blitzkrieg in cambodia jim lehrer is off charlayne hunter gault in washington robin every military situation again the economy deteriorated the pol pot government struggled to win international report and a last ditch effort the cavity in government freed former head of fate norodom sihanouk who had been held under house arrest for the past three years frank langfitt speaking to a hoped for period before the united nations security council applauded the arrival it became griffey and perhaps the best known cambodian on the international being held an extraordinary five hour press conference is criticism of the enemy four and powerfully with matched even overshadowed by his passionate criticism of pol pot domestic policy and

its image mm hmm i'm

jacki lyden mm hmm mayday mayday mayday those banned salmon and his best lessons and asked him was standing

right now is the lemon that's right now that led to a new era mm hmm mm hmm you noted that that the two privately that the united nations is reportedly scheduled to arrive there tuesday night but following his news conference today the parents wondered aloud whether pol pot prejean with still want him to continue efforts represented abroad after hearing have common one historian who have followed

the fifth revolt conflict between cambodia and theater i'm into gareth porter with reporter who had made several trips to vietnam the most recent in november is now working on a book about the future of international politics and daffy a teacher why should they get the military situation to give the cambodian deteriorated a few moments ago that took my first question to you is i did to be in the end in pain cambodia i think several things happened in nineteen seventy eight you may recall early in the year when the they were really first began in late nineteen seventy seven early seventy eight the amazement bay lightning thrust into cambodia and then pull back and offered a truce proposal to the cambodian regime which was turned down which would've had both sides withdraw their forces five miles behind but behind the accepted the

boundary between the two countries and have an international inspection force to keep them from from fighting again and that was in february senate since then things have happened first of all the unions have recognized the chinese for the first time officially as their main enemy and this is a breathtaking development given these internal politics as well as foreign policy that meant that they began to treat cambodia has only one of a larger one part of a larger picture which they felt the chinese were up to threaten the enemies security and i think it became really paranoid about the chinese intentions and saw china using cambodian attacks against vietnam as a way of opening up another front against the vietnam and another thing that happened was i think the vietnamese began to feel that there are enough defections from the cambodian party high leaders as well as the little

echelon and low ranking military and political people but they could put together a government which could be a fun way came out in in november with a with a front zipper to oppose the present to be at that time the puppet government and in cambodia so they have both negative and positive incentives for changing that policy from the beginning of the year without any magic in that particular time for them to strike well obviously they were waiting for the precisely the right moment it seems that this was tied very much too us chinese relations they chose the moment almost immediately after normalization was announced intention to normalize the beginning of the year and it seems to me up they wanted to have they or their cool against the government take place before the us chinese strategic alliance you that was not a an official lives yet was really consolidated me i will come back information on the fighting in the present situation so hard to come by western military and

intelligence analysts have been piecing it together from the claims of both sides and from some independent intelligence data one of the reporters in touch with that world as william beecher diplomatic correspondent the boston globe <unk> nature doesn't western intelligence confirmed the extent of the victory against ballpark absolutely mars he and do they know how much regular forced vietnamese units or how many regular for sudanese units were you so the estimate is that around one hundred thousand lebanese forces along with a twenty thousand one the irregulars were used in this campaign supported by tanks and aircraft engine aircraft including a lot of aircraft that were captured from the seventies american forces when that effort collapsed a couple years ago just as a matter of curiosity to me i mean does our intelligence is our intelligence able to see this kind of thing from spy satellites in that sort of thing or to have to rely on a more old fashioned methods of finding out you can vote at the situation from spy satellites but you can listen

in to tackle communications and you can talk to people who are on the ground and there were some diplomatic observers on the ground says i am a chinese spokesman introducing sihanouk at that press conference with assad pete silva said the fighting was not over and the war was not over mr sinner consultant in some doubt as to whether the chinese were going to intervene does washington do analysts expect the chinese to intervene against vietnam there is no feeling whatever the china would consider any activity in cambodia the chinese have built up a force of about fifteen thousand along the year china vietnam border on to continue to build up as of this time but they are the chinese have norton movement again to look at again then to lose by not exercising military option against the announcer the general feeling is that the china will not retaliate is the feeling in

official circles in washington that the russians have scored a big one in this if the vietnamese were their allies in the cambodians were the other chinese as allies moscow has been increasingly apoplectic really about the chinese they had been concern when the chinese on saturday an anti soviet campaign in their backyard in the million yugoslavian concerned when america normalize relations with taking that will concern even know when western european nations that showed some interest in that determination to say our arms and even weapons plants the chinese and so finally they have some good news duty our intelligence analysts you've been talking to give any credence to the idea that many cambodians actually welcomed the fall of getting rid of pol pot for pot was not considered a barrier a friendlier father figures in society is this could be the conditions you could tell from the emotion that was evoked by personal about

people not being careful as pat really illustrating with the what the popular sentiment was there and as washington figured out to do what to do if this comes to a battle at the united nations opposing the debate takes place later this week and they're still must determination by the carter administration as to what to do with the generally speaking it probably would not support an effort to expel vietnam nations will not taking a leading role in whatever debate takes place but probably would support an effort to condemn the aggression against cambodia a declaration of intent from in admissions to ask foreign troops to get out and the proposal that the un observers be sent into cambodia throughout the suit this takes place for him the vietnam have been accused of trying to a battleship felt baby overlord in southeast asia to come including the chinese who made that charge that we have moved into cambodia bear about the so called expansion of the vietnam with ibm and that line of thinking with a man with

olive byrne in indochina closely for many years he did allan cameron a research fellow at the american enterprise institute here in washington he would formally being a thief what's his school of law and diplomacy of the canon are the fear that vietnam so called ancient ancient indochina in your view just trauma images vietnam laos cambodia laos has been a if you will satellite of the vietnamese since nineteen seventy five this latest move wraps up short in cambodia i think one must distinguish between expansionism in indochina southeast asia the vietnamese consider indochina to be their preserved they considered that for fifty or a hundred or more years rest of southeast asia's of the question and the chinese that have accused an ally of acting at the ferry get for the soviet union what's your view about that i do not agree with that and i think that the the somewhat simplistic characterization of the

conflict is a sort of war is fundamentally misleading yes the soviet union supports generally vietnam yes china supports generally cambodia on what i've seen in this particular and sins indicates that if anything the china of this soviet union has tried to restrain vietnam and there's some evidence particularly from or six or eight months ago with the chinese had some really tried to restrain cambodia though rainin restrain with respect to advancing on hand i knew him well i think that it has been the goal of the leadership in hanoi who amalgamated you will cambodia i believe is reporter said that they perceived the time was

appropriate to do a dry season a sufficient military strength of perception on that there would be no intervention support cambodia believe the vietnamese say the chinese have basically paper tigers and the situation the chinese part of that i'm a perception that reporters said that the regime in cambodia was insufficient was officially unstable so that this kind of private vivian even going to be in any new government of chavez than camp here i think that's hard to say because the composition strength of this fraud is very hard to turn my guess would be that the new president will be a very strong but not obvious justice not obviously lots of the music well basically what was going up i didn't know that that the detainees are going to have to worry about a tremendous amount of resistance at the right at the level of the

history of the pol pot regime well i think that and basically in a situation like this that as we learned that not the population at large is is essentially a political they will react in a xenophobic what against foreigners and i would presume that as the detainees tried to structure the country they're going to minimize their obvious presence particularly among a large population of rural population and then work through cambodians and there'll be cambodia's to work and it you know i think it's called on vietnam to pull out of cambodia did call the whole thing off and forget it happen with your view of that i think the united states in the best of all possible worlds would've had nothing to do with the situation or are we cannot influence of a weakened it i think the danger of a wider conflict from this is minimal if not nonexistent we appear now to others although not perhaps to ourselves to have taken the cambodian side which i think is

unfortunate i think we would have done better to distance ourselves and to have said no let's get another view what the american interest is now an indo china dolls or gloria is professor of government at hunter college new york is the author of books on the relations with russia and china and their respective relations with vietnam forces in korea does viet nam want to absorb or to use the week word we just heard amalgamate cambodia it's a gray with what's been said so far that it has been the objective of the vietnamese communists who amalgamate laos and cambodia into a greater vietnam a greater indochina ever since the formation of the vietnamese communist party in the nineteen thirties they want to take over the former french empire and indo china but i think it is questionable well whether they will be able to do so i was very impressed with sienna statements indicating that although he's opposed to paul what

government us to defend the territorial integrity of cambodia against vietnam i should expect that this is a very strong feeling in cambodia after a we're dealing with very intense nationalism that has a history of ear nine centuries of vietnamese cambodian conflict as a matter of fact what is now happening in asia is the revival of premodern pre colonial ethnic a national conflict vietnam against china or cambodia against vietnam russia against china so i think that they are the enemies will have though all they can do to absorb cambodia would do you agree with what i took her doctor ordered to me in part that the us recognize acceptance of normalization and president carter's announcement has been to normalize relations with the king was in essence a precipitating factor in this and i'm sure that that i think it may have been simply the opportunity was right the dry season has now come about the ballpark government over and popular that he had a nice opportunity there was not nothing to stop them

now so the government has been accused along it's never been actually confirmed a practicing genocide on its own people or part of it should americans be mourning follow the pol pot government even at the hands of vietnamese no i don't think that we should shed any tears over the floor of what is one of the most despotic governments in modern history at the same time we must not we must oppose the swallowing up of one country by a larger neighbor this is a precedent that the international community cannot tolerate what you noticed it's true well i think it's in the american interest to those and so what we're trying to do in the first instance as in any regional conflict are interested in trying to contain it our country where we said earlier i think this is a particularly dangerous regional conflict because there is a great potential for us first read it involves two major powers russia and china plus a very large regional power vietnam all the more heavily armed all of them are deeply suspicious

of each other all of them have troops in each other the borders as an enormous danger that threatens not on the peace in asia but the potential abuse of the world and therefore i think are i'm very interested in trying to use our envoys to contain only the conflict ok let's open this up to the others again and talk first of all about the danger to the countries immediately adjoining cambodia laos thailand and malaysia our guest reporter dr porter do you think there is that they this large vietnamese army i believe it is the sixth largest in the world and i am flushed with his success now poses a kind of expansionist danger in the rest of the invention of the engine no i don't think so and i don't believe the other countries of dusty and for example in vietnam that where i was in both thailand malaysia and november and december and the reaction that the foreign ministry officials i talked to

there have to be situation in cambodia which is already that at that time developing a way that suggested that everyone of the puppet government did not have very long to survive was that the real danger here was not vietnamese reading the sweeter southeast asia about that in the process of vietnam signing a an agreement with the soviet union in the process of the chinese suppressing vietnam on and cambodia that there could be a situation which a china and vietnam what the china and the soviet union a student would be drawn into the conflict directly and that would be what would threaten the lassie and states and they were most afraid were set sur thailand the philippines singapore indonesia and families i'm fundamentally i think so i think that it's something that you set at the top of a show you have to understand them and people who listen to us to understand that

this is not the usual work it's been going on for basically almost three years now it's not a new thing whether you're talking about the relationship of indochina southeast asia what we're talking about the relationship between china and the soviet union when you're talking about the way that the retired for example perceive that had been established that's one of the of the fundamental reasons that i did not share that as a glorious perception that this is a very explosive situation the most surprising thing to me about our reading of the situation of the people are surprised by what happened but major do you find your sources in washington and the administration feel that this is an explosive situation or one that we are going to have to carry out to what it shows and certainly the ties are extremely apprehensive about their insecurity stemming from the us the events of the last two weeks they were even considering and discussed at some level

with american officials the possibility of a military move to create physically carved from the area from tammany itself a buffer area buffer zone you're thinking of using of cambodian refugees within their own voters as a cat's paw the crab is apathy a vietnamese forces moved so quickly to investigate area that mr ayers a feasible possibility of it the thais are very apprehensive because now for the first time their entire eastern frontier both on the lotion motion in cambodia borders potentially could be invested as they would say have by vietnamese forces expansionist in these forces are very nervous about that you know remember historically that the economy is like i like the image of that resides in cambodia the inmates in the firing process of partitioning the country when the french came in the nineteenth century during world war two the high and that's the

japanese support to western provinces and what it which they still considered a big territory ot whether the tide might try to revive their historical ethnic and territorial conflicts in the region is it really matter for something well we have just a few seconds left i just like to know does the united states have any real option of water right now yes i think i disagree with that a cameraman he said that the united states cannot influence a situation i think it's true that there's been a fait accompli in terms of the change of government that looking to the future united states can influence vietnam's foreign policy very very clearly by having diplomatic relations as well as good relations with that country because in the absence of any relations with united states via the news don't have an incentive to paying attention with united states' interests or if they do have a significant relationship with the us that becomes a constant reference point in their calculations now i regret we have to leave it there a reason we could follow up and so i thank you all very much for

joining us and i would naturally let's offer tonight we'll be back tomorrow night i'm robert mcneil the peak has become speaker a report by the government today they are solely responsible for its content funding for this program has been provided by the station and other public television stations and bike grant excellent cooperation allied chemical cooperation and the corporation for public broadcasting salary

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