The MacNeil/Lehrer Report; 6139; Atlanta Children

[Tease]

CHILDREN, SINGING: No. no thank you/I can`t get in your car./No. no thank you/I don`t know who you are./Walk with a friend to school./Please don`t walk alone./If someone tries to follow you/Your family you should phone...

ROBERT MacNEIL [voice-aver]: Children have joined in the campaign against child murders and disappearances in Atlanta. But is that campaign going too far?

[Titles]

MacNEIL Good evening. By late today, Atlanta police had found no trace of a 14-year-old youth, the latest black child to join the list of missing and murdered. Lubie "Chuck" Geter has been missing since Sunday. Yesterday, his name was officially added to the list of cases being investigated by a special police task force. In the past 18 months, 11 black children have been found murdered in Atlanta and five are now missing. This apparent wave of crimes against black children has stimulated massive police efforts, shocked the citizenry into forming search teams for the missing children and produced an extraordinary barrage of media warnings to children in general. There are now some who feel that this reaction -- or overreaction -- carries its own dangers. Tonight, fear and the children of Atlanta. Jim Lehrer is off; Charlayne Hunter-Gault is in Atlanta. Charlayne?

CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: Robin, here in this city of more than a million people, there is almost no one who hasn`t been touched by the murders and disappearances. You can hardly hold a conversation with anyone who hasn`t a theory on the crime or a concern about its lack of resolution. The state of high anxiety that existed here since mid-summer when the publicity about the murders and disappearances began to build had given away to a state of quiet uneasiness. But with the latest disappearance, the city`s emotional barometer is on the rise again. Grief stricken friends and relatives from Atlanta`s black community have already buried 11 of their murdered children and the number of Atlanta`s citizens who have come together to search for the five children still missing is growing.

Each weekend, teams of citizens from all over Atlanta join in the heartbreaking search for clues and. possibly, more bodies. The search has focused primarily on the low-income areas where all of the victims lived. It has involved not only a broad cross-section of people, but also search dogs as well. The latest weekend search turned up an abandoned house filled with children`s` shoes, clothing, and a bizarre display of drawings and two Bibles nailed to the wall opened to passages referring to children and violent death. Despite that, police who investigated the house say there is no connection between it and the missing children. Yet, police have continued their two-pronged campaign aimed at urging people to be on the lookout for clues like this while at the same time trying to prevent another tragedy. [Excerpts from several public safety messages as broadcast on Atlanta`s television stations]

Mayor MAYNARD JACKSON [standing behind a table covered with money]: They cannot kill our children and get away with it. We`ve got to stop them. Here`s a $100.000 and it`s all yours if you do the following -- [words on TV screen: "For information on the specific details of each of the rewards, contact the Department of Public Safety. City of Atlanta. 65H- 7H45"]

Football Star MIKE KENT: Your children need protection. I`m Mike Kent of the Atlanta Falcons. Help your child by teaching him how to call the operator for help. Show your child how to use a pay telephone and make sure your child carries an emergency dime to make that call.

Musician ISAAC HAYES: I`m Isaac Hayes. I want all children to be safe. Don`t go anywhere alone. Always go with a group. And learn your full name, your address, and your telephone number. And know where you can get help. And never ever take money or gifts from strangers and don`t ever get into a car or a truck with anyone you don`t know.

Public Safety Commissioner LEE P. BROWN: If one of our children was ab- ducted or killed near your home, I`ll be calling you soon. The mother of one of the missing or murdered children will talk to you also. Our voices will be recorded and we`ll ask you some questions. Please, answer honestly. No one will know that you talked with us. What you say will be held in strict confidence. We`ll be calling you soon. Please help us. It`s for all Atlanta and all of our children. Thank you.

HUNTER-GAULT: The man we just saw. Public Safety Commissioner Lee Brown, is leading the campaign as well as the overall investigation. Commissioner Brown, who holds a doctorate in criminology, is in charge of police, fire, sanitation, and civil defense services. Commissioner Brown, first of all. have you turned up anything in your search for Lubie Geter?

Commissioner BROWN: Our investigators -- that includes a task force and other members of the police bureau -- are currently working on that. As of this time, we have no new leads other than the fact that he was last seen at the shopping center.

HUNTER-GAULT: This task force is the special task force on missing and murdered children. You didn`t turn this case over initially. What caused you to change your mind two days later?

Commissioner BROWN: During the course of a year, we`ll have approximately 161700 missing persons reports. Over the last three days we`ve had maybe four or five on an average a day. As a matter of procedure, all the cases, when they are turned over to the police bureau, we conduct a preliminary investigation to determine where we should go from there. In over 80% of the cases we locate the person within a 24-hour period. That was the case here. We received the report, it went to our missing persons unit; they worked on it for 24 hours; and at that point we made an administrative decision to turn it over to the task force, primarily because the child in this case did not have a history of running away. Our efforts in working around the clock with the school, with the parents, with relatives and friends, gave us no indication as to where he might be. And because of the characterizes -- he`s a young, black male -- and. having no history of running away, we decided to turn it over to our special task force as another case that they`re handling.

HUNTER-GAULT: Is that the kind of pattern that has been occurring in these cases and the kind of thing you look for when you determine how you investigate it?

Commissioner BROWN: Well, what we see are similarities in the now 16 cases that are being carried by the task force. 11 being homicide victims and five are still missing. The similarities are, number one. that they are all black; number two. they`re all young, coming between the ages of seven and 15; and generally come from low-income areas. And as a result of the fact that over the last year and a half or so we`ve had those cases -- and the distinguishing characteristic that they`re unsolved cases -- we have done a number of things such as mounting the most intensive and extensive investigation ever conducted in the history of this city in an effort to determine the persons responsible -- to solve the cases. But in addition, we`ve mounted a very extensive public education campaign. Our approach is two-fold: we want to find out the persons responsible for the murders of our children; locate the ones that are still missing; at the same time, we do not want any other of our children to become victims.

HUNTER-GAULT: Is there any evidence to support the widespread feeling that this is some sort of conspiracy to kill black children?

Commissioner BROWN: Well, we have absolutely no evidence to support that theory. We look at each case and even though we established a special task force for the purpose of following all information -- freeing up the investigators` time to work 100% of their time on the cases, working 24 hours a day, seven days a week -- we still assign one investigator to each case because of the differences when you look at the case. So there`s nothing at all to suggest the speculation that there`s some relationship. In fact, we do not believe that all the cases are related.

HUNTER-GAULT: In other words, you believe that there are -- that these children who have been murdered and are missing are the victims of a number of different individuals rather than say, one mad killer or a group or whatever?

Commissioner BROWN: Well, we can say -- based on the evidence -- absolutely we do not have one person in our city that`s stalking our streets abducting our children. Again, as we look at each case individually, conceivably, as we carry 16 cases in the task force, we could conceivably have 16 separate, unrelated cases. The similarities as I mentioned earlier are there but there are many differences. The method of operation -- the modus operandi - - the children`s` deaths, abductions, have occurred in different parts of our city. The method of killing, in looking at the 11 slain children -- we`ve had gunshot wounds, knife wounds, the strangulation, asphyxiation -- so all of that differs. So based upon our experience in law enforcement, based upon the consultants which we`ve consulted with over a period of time, there is almost complete agreement -- I would say 100% agreement -- that we do not have one case. Rather, a number of cases that may not at all be related.

HUNTER-GAULT: How do these compare, say, with the murders of young children over a period of time? I mean, is there anything unusual in the number of murders that you have had?

Commissioner BROWN: The number is not unusual. We have gone back over a ten-year period and examined all homicides involving children under the age of 15, or 15 and under, and we average maybe seven or eight homicides a year involving children in that age group.

HUNTER-GAULT: Well, who was killing those children`1

Commissioner BROWN: In most instances, we find that someone who knew the children were the ones who were responsible for the murder, and we were able to solve those cases because of the fact that they were committed by the perpetrator being someone who was close to the child -- family member, acquaintance, etc. The differences and the extraordinary problem that we have in Atlanta right now associated with our tragedy of the missing and murdered children is that the cases we`re carrying are unsolved cases. And that is the difference. In most cases, when we look at a homicide, there are essentially three elements that are present that allow for solution: number one, we have an eyewitness or we`ll have a confession; or we have an abundance of physical evidence that leads us to the person responsible. But in these cases, none of those three elements are present. So that`s what makes the situation that`s confronting us in Atlanta right now so much different and indeed unique from other years, the other 10 years that we`ve looked at.

HUNTER-GAULT: If they don`t fit into a pattern, and these are the only things that make it unique, just briefly, how do you account for the kind of massive attention in the press and the kind of reaction in the community -- ?? indeed, even the SI 00.000 reward that the Mayor referred to a few moments ago -- I mean, why suddenly all of this?

Commissioner BROWN: There are a number of reasons for that. Number one being that it`s an extraordinary situation. The tragedy that we`re experiencing is unlike anything that has ever been experienced in the city of Atlanta before and unlike anything that we know of any place in the nation. As a result, we`re approaching it from a two-pronged approach. One, we`re interested in it in solving the cases, finding out the persons responsible, and that is the on-going investigation where we`re probably writing the book in the context of how you conduct a very massive and intensive investigation. But equally important, we are desirous that none of our other children become victims, so we have a very extensive public education program. Our mayor, Mayor Jackson, for example, has exercised extraordinary political leadership -- community leadership -- in terms of addressing the issues of how do we prevent any other of our children from becoming victims. And that --

HUNTER-GAULT: So it`s the community consciousness and awareness, you`re saying, that has caused the overwhelming attention on this?

Commissioner BROWN: Well, one of the things we have initiated ourselves would be the public service announcements, the educational programs, the workshops, the seminars, the distribution of literature, the knocking on every door in the city, the various other items to provide information to parents and children -- how they can prevent themselves from becoming a victim. And that`s very important, it`s very important that we understand that we have an extraordinary problem in our city and as a result, we all in the city must exercise extraordinary responsibilities, and particularly the responsibility of parenting.

HUNTER-GAULT: All right. We`ll get back. Thank you. Robin?

MacNEIL: One of those who is worried about the effects of this warning campaign is Mrs. Corine Brown who works with Atlanta children as director of the Ninth District Youth Council, which she also founded. She herself has three foster sons. Mrs. Brown, what worries you about this warning campaign?

CORINE BROWN: I`m worried about seeing our children becoming more paranoid every day; frightened because of so many warnings coming from so many unusual sources, sources that children has never been involved in conversation with people. And this is frightening them too. and upsetting them to no point --

MacNEIL: To no point.

Mrs. BROWN: -- that makes sense. Uh-huh.

MacNEIL: What evidence do you have that they are frightened and upset?

Mrs. BROWN: Well, one incident that really disturbed me more was two children in our group carrying guns and telling me that they were carrying them because they had to protect themselves.

MacNEIL: Real guns?

Mrs. BROWN: Real guns

MacNEIL: How old were the children?

Mrs. BROWN: One was 14 and the other was 16

MacNEIL: Can you think of any other evidence that the children are paranoid, as you say?

Mrs. BROWN: Yes. In my own case, at my home, we had a knock on the door one night and my three sons went to the door with baseball bats. Now. three kids with baseball bats on a person that is unsuspecting that this is going to happen could have been really tragic.

MacNEIL: If you don`t warn the children, how could the city, as the Commissioner just said, help to prevent more children becoming victims?

Mrs. BROWN: I will agree with anybody that these children must be warned, but by their parents. I believe that if parents would become more involved in die situation that we have here in Atlanta, to be educated on how to warn their children -- You see. all children are not the same. Everybody has his own personalities and his own emotional problems and whatever, and each parent knows how to deal with their own individual child. And I think if they were getting this from someone that they have known all their life, and have been listening to and taking their advice, then I think it would be better. They could adhere to it better without getting so emotional and so upset about it.

MacNEIL: What is it about the warnings that you think is particularly frightening and upsetting to the children.

Mrs. BROWN: Well, we sec along the street when we are out for some reason, on an errand or whatnot, children are so afraid. We pass them in our cars and they have been warned not to talk to anybody in a car. Okay, now here they are knowing me. in meetings with me at least twice each month, and they just almost freeze with fear when a car pulls up beside them and it doesn`t make any difference that they know us.

MacNEIL: You mean, it is even making them afraid of people they know?

Mrs. BROWN: Of people that they know.

MacNEIL: What do you fear may be the long-term effect of this?

Mrs. BROWN: I think that we arc going to have a generation of people that is going to be so paranoid, I don`t see how they`re going to be able to function. There are wholesome and healthy attitudes that we feel that children should have, that are basically good for them, their mental efforts and whatever. But if you`ve got a child that -- a group of children that is being trained to be frightened even when they are at home in bed and their whole family is in the house and they know this, and they`re too frightened to sleep alone now: they`re too frightened to go to the bathroom alone, and they are having all kinds of ideas. See. when you tell this child this, then his imagination picks up where you leave off. And this can be terrible and it is doing something to our children here.

MacNEIL: And he thinks his own parents can`t protect him any more. Is that it?

Mrs. BROWN: Thai`s right. And I think instead of directing these warnings to the children themselves. I think it should be a way we could get with parents and just try to work with parents on how to deal with their own children. Because this is a situation that must be dealt with.

MacNEIL: Well, thank you. Charlayne.

HUNTER-GAULT: Now. for a slightly different perspective, we go to Nancy Emmons, a psychologist for the Atlanta public school system. Ms. Emmons administers standardized tests that are used in determining placement of children in special classes. She has also been a part of the civilian search team efforts that are conducted on weekends. Ms. Emmons, how has the whole situation affected children in school.

NANCY EMMONS: Well. Charlayne. I can say. alter 12 years experience in education. I can say without a shadow of a doubt that this is having a detrimental and a permanent effect on our children in Atlanta

HUNTER-GAULT: In what way ?

Ms. EMMONS: I feel that the children are becoming more paranoid, their fear and anxiety about their environment and about strangers, about other people is almost beyond reason. And I think that -- Well, teachers have reported to me that classroom performance has been inhibited because the children are more withdrawn, there have been incidents of acting out behavior in the classrooms, and children who are afraid, as Mrs. Brown has said, to go to the bathroom alone or to go out to recess: children who. when asked by the teacher if they wouldn`t like to go out to recess, would rather stay in the room and read a book. The children are afraid to go home after school alone. Parents that I have talked to have told me that they need to call their children every afternoon to make sure that they got home and to reassure their children that everything is okay.

HUNTER-GAULT: Most of the parents of these children are working parents who aren`t home when the children get home`.`

Ms. EMMONS: Yes. They call from work. And I think that the overall effects are going to be long-term. I feel like when these children are older that they will not forget about all of this; it will continue with them throughout the years.

HUNTER-GAULT: You wrote a letter to the local paper here, the Atlanta Constitution, in which you said that the situation was affecting children`s test scores. Can you describe -- I know there`s a confidentiality problem - - but can you describe generally what those results were?

Ms. EMMONS: Well, from the onset of the testing session. I`ve noticed a considerable difference since the tragedy of the murdered and missing children. It used to be, before the tragedy occurred -- before all of the publicity about the tragedy, anyway -- it used to be that the child would come to the office happy and smiling and would go skipping joyously down the hall with the examiner to the testing session. And the child would be very at ease, verbally fluent, and conversational. But now, the child comes to the office, stands on the other side of the room, is very apprehensive, seems not to want to go with the examiner -- readily -- to the testing room, and then when the child arrives in the testing room, he or she seems to clam up. so to speak, and will not express himself as verbally as is necessary. Now. this verbal expression is absolutely crucial on verbal subtests, especially on the intelligence test because the more a child can say, the higher his score usually is.

HUNTER-GAULT: Now. what kind of long-term effect do you expect to see from that sort of performance? I mean, how is that going to affect these children in the long run?

Ms. EMMONS: Well. I feel that if decisions for placement are made based on the test results of the tests that are administered during this reign of terror here in Atlanta. I feel that they`re not exactly valid. And if students are being placed in special education classes as a result of these tests, then there may be some mistakes being made and it may be that we are miscategorizing or misplacing these students.

HUNTER-GAULT: All right, thank you. Robin?

MacNEIL: Can situations like this have harmful and lasting effects on children in a community? To answer that, we have Dr. James Comer, professor of child psychiatry at the Yale Child Study Center, and an associate dean of the Yale Medical School. Do these reactions surprise you. Dr. Comer?

Dr. JAMES COMER: No. they don`t. I think they`re to be expected in a situation where there`s a great deal of concern and intense feeling and fear. I think they`re just a part of that scene.

MacNEIL: Can such manifestations have lasting, harmful effects on children`s mental health?

Dr. COMER: They can. but again. I agree with the comment made by Mrs. Brown, that each child is an individual and responds differently, and the long-term effects would depend on what the individual child is like, and will also depend on what the -- what kind of support that particular child, or a particular child is receiving from parents, front teachers, from friends and kin.

MacNEIL: Is there a precedent or parallel that you can think of for a community in a situation like this?

Dr. COMER: Well, not communities. I can think of the problems, the parallel, let`s say. of children going into desegregation situations where there was a great deal of hostility and anger and real trauma, real danger. The result of -- the outcome, the long-term outcome with some of those children was much less troublesome than predicted, primarily because the children had a lot of community support and a lot of family support. And I think that again, the point about family`s help --

MacNEIL: And often federal marshal and police support.

Dr. COMER: Yes. that`s correct. Also, one of the observations that has been made in a parallel situation would be in the bombings during war where children were thought to have, would have a great deal of psychological trauma. It turns out that the children whose parents responded in a realistic fashion, indicating that there was very real danger, but at the same time gave very practical directions for taking reasonable precautions and did not overreact and did not become hysterical themselves -- those children had less difficulty in the long run than parents who. [than] where parents overreacted.

MacNEIL: What do you think of Mrs. Brown`s suggestion, that the warnings should be directed more towards the parents and let them warn or direct their children, than to the children directly?

Dr. COMER: I think you must do both, but I would agree that the emphasis should be with parents. After all. it really should be a very normal part of the parent child-rearing function to help children understand that there are certain people you can trust and there are certain other people that you can`t trust. That, in fact, you can trust most people most of the time, but there are certain people that you can`t trust. And parents have to help them understand what some of the signs [are] that mean you can`t trust people and help them take realistic precautions against that without making the child fearful of everybody and without being very hysterical about it.

MacNEIL: Well, thank you. Charlayne.

HUNTER-GAULT: Commissioner, what do you say to Mrs. Brown, who says that the children are -- there are so many warnings coming from so many directions that these kids are arming themselves and that they`re scared to death -- the same point Ms. Emmons made -- and to no point.

Commissioner BROWN: Mrs. Brown is one of my advisors so certainly when she says something. I`m going to listen to her. But in addition, we have other advisors who are professionals in the mental health field: Dr. Alvin Poussaint. a community psychiatrist; Dr. Frank Ochberg in Michigan, a community psychiatrist: Mr. Robert Lamb, a community conflict specialist: and Terry Lenzncr. an attorney dealing with investigative strategies.

HUNTER-GAULT: Yeah, but do they know about the kinds of reactions and --

Commissioner BROWN: Yes. we`ve brought them in and we talked about all of this in terms of making some determination in managing what happens in our city. It`s necessary. according to the mental health specialists, that there be a certain level of tear in children because of the seriousness of the problem that we are experiencing. And the fear is necessary to allow them to be alert, to take extraordinary precautions in their own safety. But as a result --

HUNTER-GAULT: But she was saying that the campaign has exacerbated that, and indeed, is about to push them over the edge.

Commissioner BROWN: But the point I want to make is that in addition to the public service announcements -- the campaign we have in protecting -- we`re doing a number of other things in the area of addressing that as a problem. We`ve met and worked very close with the school people, worked with the mental health professions, professionals in the city: I have a local advisory group consisting of black psychiatrists -- Dr. Sandra Sims from Spellman [College], and other mental health specialists, are meeting with us on a regular basis.

HUNTER-GAULT: What about parents"

Commissioner BROWN: We are doing training programs, workshops, on parenting. We don`t have a disagreement that parenting is the key as far as we`re concerned and many of our efforts in terms of going out into the community are addressing the parents because we believe -- and this is based on the professional advice that we have -- that the answer is parenting. One of the concerns that we have is that the children are our most precious possessions and what we see happening in Atlanta is not unique to Atlanta. To the extent we have serious conflicts in any community --

HUNTER-GAULT: All right, let me just find out. Mrs. Brown, the Commissioner says you don`t have a disagreement.

Mrs. BROWN: No. we haven`t yet.

HUNTER-GAULT: But you are concerned.

Mrs. BROWN: I am very concerned because if you notice, the last -- You had to remind him about parents. You see. he named everything but that. And we have so many different types of people and this is unfortunate for us. You can`t generalize -- what I`m saying. You got to deal with each type, or each group as it applies to them. And some of these surfaces haven`t been scratched.

HUNTER-GAULT: Haven`t been scratched.

Mrs. BROWN: No. No.

Commissioner BROWN: Well, there are a lot of things that we`re doing. We have a very comprehensive program -- We`re not going about what we`re doing without looking at it. Our tips are geared to parents. We have workshops that are geared to parents. We are making many of our announcements, our brochures: "Parents, teach these tips to your children."

HUNTER-GAULT: I`m sorry. I have to make the announcement that we`re out of time. Sorry, and thank you. Robin?

MacNEIL: Thank you. Mrs. Brown. Ms. Emmons, and Commissioner Brown for joining us in Atlanta, and Dr. Comer here. Good night. Charlayne.

HUNTER-GAULT: Good night. Robin

MacNEIL: That`s all for tonight. We will be back tomorrow night. I`m Robert MacNeil. Good night.